• Hi Guest !

    Welcome to the new 500Eboard forum, post-migration to XenForo. Please feel free to do the following:

    1) Explore, click, tweak your settings, enjoy

    2) Check out the new "skins" link at the bottom left of the main page, to change the look and feel (color scheme/graphics) of the forum to your preference

    3) Let me know of any errors you find. I am hard at work in the coming days and weeks to get things tweaked correctly, and I know there are plenty of small tweaks. Feel free to post in the "XenForo Migration" thread anything you find, or have questions about.

Lemfoerder early style LCA"s,Investigation,questioning,"Fake"Lemfoerder/reboxed?Start discussion:)

lowman

E500E Resto God, Hierarki-Man
Hey people
I just received my new Lemfoerder LCA"s for my Blackbeauty.
Many questions is beeing tossed around in my head.
I think i will let the pictures speak for themselves,,,at least until i upload the video :)
Start discussion :)
The logo here IS confirmed a genuine Lemfoerder logo..even though initially i was questioning it looking like this..and not with the "Owl" inside the triangle..but i found out that the L and triangle is a genuine logo.


Lemfoerder?


"Lemfoerder"?


Lemfoerder vs "Lemfoerder?


Original Lemfoerder balljoint to the left...the balljoint that was mounted in the LCA to the right


"Lemfoerder"?
[/URL

"Lemfoerder"?
[URL="http://s83.photobucket.com/user/lowman28/media/20180817_180125_zpskevtkgjm.jpg.html"]


Lemfoerder!


Lemfoerder


Lemfoerder to the left,and "Lemfoerder" to the right


Lemfoerder to the left,and "Lemfoerder" to the right


 
Last edited:

gsxr

.036 Hoonigan™, E500E Boffin
Staff member
Awwww nuts. Looks like they are no longer using OEM bushings or ball joints, but some unknown aftermarket stuff. Here are photos of the same Lemforder LCA six years ago (2012), note the bushings on this were OEM with MB part numbers and Star logo, and the ball joint had the Lemforder logo on the bottom:
http://www.w124performance.com/images/W124_suspension/front_LCA_124-330-30-07/Lemforder/

I've found some other Lemforder items are no longer OEM in the past year or two. Didn't know the LCA's joined the club.

:runexe:
 

lowman

E500E Resto God, Hierarki-Man
yeah it is indeed nuts.

i noticed this also on the LCA"s on your pics...this "ridge" or...strengthening "thing" is not on the "new "ones i have..or on the "optimal" ones for that matter

 

lowman

E500E Resto God, Hierarki-Man
Here is the video
I hope you "like it" for what it is :)
[video=youtube;sWfMPsRDywc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWfMPsRDywc[/video]
 

JC220

Active member
Lowman, thankyou very much for sharing your findings on these Lemforder parts. It is most disappointing to see that they are bagging rubbish parts basically. Lemforder parts were once a staple brand of OE quality Mercedes / W124 parts. I recently had bought a pair of Lemforder M104 engine mounts and they were also made in china with no OE markings. I did install them, kind of regret that now. I bet they will only last a year or two unlike the original items I removed which had survived 100k+ miles and 24 years service.

Made in Taiwan Lemforder should be returned post haste IMHO. What a cop out on Lemforder's part. It would be great if your video did reach them but I do not think it will change much with a company that size.

So what to replace them with, OE MB only now?
 

lowman

E500E Resto God, Hierarki-Man
hey mister J.Thank you ..and im glad you like it:) Well.."bagging"...not sure what you mean..but..i am rreally not sure about what to think at this stage...i guess it will be abit clearer when eventually receiving a reply back from Lemfoerder /ZF
Well..to be honest..what bothers me most is just the dissapointment of the LCA not having Lemfoerder balljoint at least..the bushings i really dont know about...i did check the Lemfoerder bushing kit i have laying around..and they do not have Lemfoerder logo either?which is kinda weird..i was quite sure they did have the logo when i put on the bushing kit on the Optimal brand LCA.

For now..im just replacing the balljoints with the proper Lemfoerder ones..still waiting for one of them,,as i screwed up one of them when i mounted it in the LCA.So ive ordered a new balljoint.
The bushings i cant be bothered with..and just leaving them in there.
But i will send Lemfoerder/ ZF and email..and ask what is going on with these parts.

But i really want original Mercedes ones yes...but they are sooo expensive here in norway..and i cant remember which of the LCA"s that was NLA...i did ask my parts guy..but i cant remember if i asked about the early style or late style..and one of the sides were not available.

Thank you mate :)
 

JC220

Active member
By "bagging rubbish parts" I meant that Lemforder now appear to be putting sub par parts into a Lemforder branded bag / packet. AKA possible re-boxers now like other brands have known to be for years.
 

lowman

E500E Resto God, Hierarki-Man
guys..just so you know..
Email is sent to Lemfoerder/ZF 18.08.2018 -One email asking for product information on the arms because of my findings,,,and as a parts "complaint/trouble shooting " case
Just wanted you guys to know.
 

Eno

Active member
The early Lemforder ball joints are very good quality as below.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

mikeym

Member
I had Chinese made Lemfeorder mounts installed in the summer of 2016 and they failed couple of months ago. Got the parts replaced under warranty but was out $200 for labor. I expect that they will fail again in two years and the cycle continues....
 

gerryvz

Site Honcho
Staff member
At that rate, it’s just best to go with Factory the first time and be done with it.
 

TerryA

Active member
At that rate, it’s just best to go with Factory the first time and be done with it.
Gerry,

Just being the ‘Devil’s Advocate’ here for clarification. Are you saying that if members order these ball joints from Mercedes, ie; Naperville or Tom Hanson that the parts will still be of 1st quality? Does MB hold Lemforder accountable to a higher spec?

I know they will cost more $$$ from MB but if quality is an issue it makes sense to pay more the first time. What a PITA to have to change out ‘Rubbish Parts’ as Joe calls them after a year or two.
 

JC220

Active member
Are you saying that if members order these ball joints from Mercedes, ie; Naperville or Tom Hanson that the parts will still be of 1st quality? Does MB hold Lemforder accountable to a higher spec?
Terry this is very true. Have any members very recently bought genuine MB early LCA’s they can share pictures of?

Personally for me I think it is always worth the late style LCA upgrade which will allow for future brake upgrades. (Only factory MB is advised for the late LCA’s. TRW Supply the late arms to MB and the TRW aftermarket offerings have been known to be poor. I am not certain that the aftermarket TRW may have improved though?)

The w124 parts choices are getting ever more limited now. Alot of research is required before making a purchase to try to find out if you are liable to receive something made in China! Oddly enough Febi have been very reliable for me this past year or so - it has to be said. In terms of Flex Discs they are factory SGF items, the steering and tensioner dampers are factory Stabilus items, wheel bearing kits made in Germany with the MB star stamped into the caps, LCA control arm bushing kits which are made in Germany too and 722.6 transmission seal kits which had OE Kaco german made seals inside. Just sayin :wormhole:
 

emerydc8

Active member
the steering and tensioner dampers are factory Stabilus items
So I paid an extra $20 each for steering dampers last month and the Stabilus brand is the exact same product (minus the MB logo)? $62.90 at mboemparts.com versus $42.95 on ebay. I wondered about this before I ordered but decided to go with the factory part.
 

Attachments

JC220

Active member
So I paid an extra $20 each for steering dampers last month and the Stabilus brand is the exact same product (minus the MB logo)? $62.90 at mboemparts.com versus $42.95 on ebay. I wondered about this before I ordered but decided to go with the factory part.
With Febi you get the Made in germany Stabilus part like this:

8808a2s-960.jpg
 

gsxr

.036 Hoonigan™, E500E Boffin
Staff member
I had Chinese made Lemfeorder mounts installed in the summer of 2016 and they failed couple of months ago. Got the parts replaced under warranty but was out $200 for labor. I expect that they will fail again in two years and the cycle continues....
Mikey, what mounts failed?

:detective:
 

mikeym

Member
At that rate, it’s just best to go with Factory the first time and be done with it.
You are right on most parts but not for everything. For my E320, I had bought two fan clutches, one from AutohausAZ and one from MB dealer. They both are Chinese made Behr and I couldn't tell the difference. May be the MB boxed Behr is on a different assembly line in the same factory but I am not taking chances. Returned both and now waiting for German made Sachs to come back in stock.
 

Jlaa

Active member
You are right on most parts but not for everything. For my E320, I had bought two fan clutches, one from AutohausAZ and one from MB dealer. They both are Chinese made Behr and I couldn't tell the difference. May be the MB boxed Behr is on a different assembly line in the same factory but I am not taking chances. Returned both and now waiting for German made Sachs to come back in stock.
I can understand your concern. The problem is that so many goods of inferior quality or poor imitaive execution have been produced by Chinese origin manufacturers that we conflate Chinese origin with crap. It is easy to do this. A generation or two ago, we conflated Korean, Taiwan, HK, and Japanese sourced goods with crap as well.

As someone who has extensive experience dealing with Chinese and Thai factories, I will state that what matters is the processes and quality test metrics that are implemented, not the country of origin.

As an example, all Apple phones and iPads, as well as the WiFi hardware you are using is made in China, and it is likely not crap.

If the product is an MB branded product and is made in China, I would also give a slight pause, as I am also colored by my biases, but I wanted to make that distinction clear.
 

mikeym

Member
I should have clarified.
When I say I am not taking chances, it is paying more for MB item and thinking that I am getting a higher quality product (when german made sachs is an option). With the shrinking demand on W124 products, I can see MB simply re-boxing aftermarket part.
Now, you are right that product quality varies. I would be ok using Behr fan clutch on my car but there is no way I am installing a Chinese made URO. I would rather switch to electric fan and become the "other" side on the other famous forum :)


I can understand your concern. The problem is that so many goods of inferior quality or poor imitaive execution have been produced by Chinese origin manufacturers that we conflate Chinese origin with crap. It is easy to do this. A generation or two ago, we conflated Korean, Taiwan, HK, and Japanese sourced goods with crap as well.

As someone who has extensive experience dealing with Chinese and Thai factories, I will state that what matters is the processes and quality test metrics that are implemented, not the country of origin.

As an example, all Apple phones and iPads, as well as the WiFi hardware you are using is made in China, and it is likely not crap.

If the product is an MB branded product and is made in China, I would also give a slight pause, as I am also colored by my biases, but I wanted to make that distinction clear.
 

quicksilver500

E500E Newbie
Gerry,

Just being the ‘Devil’s Advocate’ here for clarification. Are you saying that if members order these ball joints from Mercedes, ie; Naperville or Tom Hanson that the parts will still be of 1st quality? Does MB hold Lemforder accountable to a higher spec?

I know they will cost more $$$ from MB but if quality is an issue it makes sense to pay more the first time. What a PITA to have to change out ‘Rubbish Parts’ as Joe calls them after a year or two.
Yes, typical the manufacture has a more strict control scheme that they place their subs to make sure parts are good. So maybe they require more features be tracked for statistical process control, more audits, more material testing, more units sacrificed for testing, additional gauging, specific brands of measurement equipment....etc. Usually if it is the "same" part, from the sub, it isn't really the same part but what the sub determined met their internal quality standards and will usually work fine. So that is the kicker on whether the sub is worth a damn or not. Process control costs money.
 

Jlaa

Active member
I should have clarified.
When I say I am not taking chances, it is paying more for MB item and thinking that I am getting a higher quality product (when german made sachs is an option). With the shrinking demand on W124 products, I can see MB simply re-boxing aftermarket part.
Now, you are right that product quality varies. I would be ok using Behr fan clutch on my car but there is no way I am installing a Chinese made URO. I would rather switch to electric fan and become the "other" side on the other famous forum :)
Thank you for that well considered reply.
 

JC220

Active member
When I say I am not taking chances, it is paying more for MB item and thinking that I am getting a higher quality product
This is a VERY good point and I have several examples of where MB “can rip one off” here is one since instance.
When tackling my first 722.6 rebuild recently I thought I would buy a Genuine MB seal kit to ensure the quality and that I would get ALL latest O ring seals. To my dismay after waiting over a week for it to arrive and paying well over £100 this turned up:

20180509_201327.jpg

Looks OK right? Wrong. Many (Approx a 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] or more) seals are entirely missing altogether from this kit. Seals that are supposed to be included but MB recently skimmed them out of the kits. The reason? My dealer suggested the later seals I was after may be removed from the kits when the Part number is updated. I could have ordered the extra seals to complete the kit but that would have cost much more again and taken another 7 - 10 days. So..... back it went for a refund.

For less than half of the price I got a Febi kit within a couple of days which had OE MB Kaco seals and it was a COMPLETE kit with each and every seal and this included all of the latest re-designed seals. (There are around 20+ more seals in the kit below)

s-4.jpg

Granted such instances are rare..... but it does happen and MB IS NOT ALWAYS the best choice. The Febi 722.6 seal kit was so good I have ordered another kit for the shelf and planning ahead for my 320CE 722.6 build.
 

lowman

E500E Resto God, Hierarki-Man
With Febi you get the Made in germany Stabilus part like this:

View attachment 79882
Definetly a treat that one :) Same with Febi Bilstein 500e half axle /drive shaft boots...I bought 4 boots for my old shafts..and they were original Mercedes ones in Febi Bilstein box,,just with the Mercedes star ground off :)But the Febi Bilstein Drag link i bought for my 190e..that was a febi Bilstein stamped/embossed draglink.Still working like a charm at least..about 5000km on it at this point.
 

emerydc8

Active member
Based on what I'm reading above, it's like rolling the dice now whether you buy a factory or aftermarket part. This is clearly a car manufacturer that couldn't care less about customers who keep their cars past the warranty period. In fact, it appears that they are going out of their way to punish them (How much would it really cost them to offer free EPC?) Their business model now appears to be based on leasing disposable cars with poorly-designed electronic crap that no one really needs. They have totally lost their way.
 

mikeym

Member
Based on what I'm reading above, it's like rolling the dice now whether you buy a factory or aftermarket part. This is clearly a car manufacturer that couldn't care less about customers who keep their cars past the warranty period. In fact, it appears that they are going out of their way to punish them (How much would it really cost them to offer free EPC?) Their business model now appears to be based on leasing disposable cars with poorly-designed electronic crap that no one really needs. They have totally lost their way.
Very true but not sure what the alternative might be. I think with price compression of technology, there isn't much they can offer in gas engine cars to command a price premium. In a way, Tesla is in the spot where MB was in the 80s and 90s (3-5 model lineup with features and technology that no else had).
 

Jlaa

Active member
Very true but not sure what the alternative might be. I think with price compression of technology, there isn't much they can offer in gas engine cars to command a price premium. In a way, Tesla is in the spot where MB was in the 80s and 90s (3-5 model lineup with features and technology that no else had).
We have a nickname for Teslas --- Palo-Alto Camry. :) They are everywhere --- every other car is a Tesla, argh! Like rats --- I can't throw a stone without hitting a Tesla. Like Toyota Prii circa 2004. :) They are fun to drive but I cannot stand the consumer-electornics-interior and the (lack of) build quality. I guess I'm a luddite.

My greenie-dollars goes on my roof (solar panels) and my non-greenie-dollars goes into gas guzzling German cars. :)
 

emerydc8

Active member
To the extent that we are having trouble getting parts for our 124s, I would rather be in our position than someone trying to get parts for a Tesla within the next year. I doubt that company will even be around by then.
 

gerryvz

Site Honcho
Staff member
We have a nickname for Teslas --- Palo-Alto Camry. :) They are everywhere --- every other car is a Tesla, argh! Like rats --- I can't throw a stone without hitting a Tesla. Like Toyota Prii circa 2004. :) They are fun to drive but I cannot stand the consumer-electornics-interior and the (lack of) build quality. I guess I'm a luddite.

My greenie-dollars goes on my roof (solar panels) and my non-greenie-dollars goes into gas guzzling German cars. :)
And in your driveway for your City-beater [emoji48][emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

lowman

E500E Resto God, Hierarki-Man
Received an Email from Lemfoerder today, 22.8.2018
Will post the received email later..And no specific conclusion was made.Eventhough it is suggeste that counterfeit parts is not impossible.
I sent them an email back..with pictures and link to my video,,so hopefully that will lead to a better "answer" back
Will post the email later.
 

lowman

E500E Resto God, Hierarki-Man
By the way..ive gotten a tip about the balljoint beeing wrong for this application..and i agree very much with the guy suggesting it.It is of a push load design..and not Pull load design...hence the plastic insert not enclosing the inner balljoint completely up towards the top end of the balljoint housing.That makes perfectly good sense when you look at the two different balljoints.

Here is a picture where it shows clearly..that the Lemfoerder balljoint to the right..has the plastic surrounding the balljoint on top..or towards us..making it able to take the pull force that the balljoint on our Mercedes cars is exposed to.The left balljoint..that was the one that came in the Lemfoerder LCA...does NOT have any plastic support on top (Towards us),making it prone to squeeking/and such.

 

lowman

E500E Resto God, Hierarki-Man
Here is the reply i got from Lemfoerder today.
I just copied and paste the writing..cause im not computerwise inclined to copy "the email" :)
Here it is :

Dear Stefan,

Thank you for you interest in our products and your question.

Caused of the fact that is a serial part, the vehicle manufacturer logos are ground in the aftermarket.
Your question can’t be answerd easily because a hundred percent statement is not possible.
The markings on the parts can…but mustn’t….an indication of the origin/quality.
In order to rule out future issues like this please buy our parts from offical local partner of Lemförder/ ZF Friedrichshafen AG / ZF Aftermarket.
Otherwise it’s also possible that you buy counterfeit products!

We have some offical dealer/partner in Norway – f.e. AutoTrio, Kolberg Caspary Lautom, Hellanor, Sörensen og Balchen, Romnes.
All of them stay in contact with us and it should be possible for you to order it by them because all parts still active in our range.

We can’t give any guarantee for products if it’s not from an offical dealer.
Please don’t hesitate to contact us again if you have any further question.


Thank you for your understanding.
Kind regards / Med vänliga hälsningar / Med vennlig hilsen[FONT=&quot]
Jochen Brunnhuber[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Vertriebsreferent Norwegen, Schweden / Area Sales Manager Norway, Sweden[FONT=&quot] [/FONT](BIE31)[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
ZF Aftermarket[FONT=&quot][/FONT][/FONT]

ZF Friedrichshafen AG


END!

So i have sent them an email in return..where i supplied picture and link to my youtube video.Hopefully they will reply "soon" :)
 

lowman

E500E Resto God, Hierarki-Man
So people,here is the reply you have been waiting for "laughs" :)
I have now "finalized " the conversation with Lemfoerder..as they replied pretty much very quick.
I dont want to post all the emails..cause there was quite alot back and forth....but i will post these three emails ,cronologically.

#1
"In the beginning we sold it without Lemförder logo, but in the future we will sell it again with the Lemförder logo.

So it’s very difficult to give you a final answer.
Our advice for the future - please buy Lemförder/SACHS and all other ZF products from a offical Norwegian Dealer.

Thank you in advance.
Best regards

Jochen

#2

The specialist told me it is an original one….. and they will use your video for internal explanations and trainings!
I should give you the info ….. GOOD JOB J

Best wishes

Jochen

#3

Good Morning Stefan,

you wrote so many mails……one day we will become friends ;-)

I will forwarded all your mails to the specialist quality and product management.
I am working in sales. Therefore I don’t have the knowledge like them or like you.

….but I would like to say “THANK YOU” for your engagement and interst.

Normally we don’t have deeper contact to the end user/ final consumer,
but it’s very important for us to get the feedback like yours from the market.

So, I will inform my colleagues and if they have any question to your information the will contact you
directly.

Thanks a lot for your input.
Have a nice weekend.
Best regards

Jochen

END!

So as you can see....they confirmed it is an original Lemfoerder arm...one thing they did not "directly" reply to..was that" That its good that the Lemfoerder arm is original,and not beeing a fake part..but on the other hand it is concerning that they have put both an unoriginal Lemfoerder balljoint in the LCA...AND that this type of balljoint does not fit this application...with it beeing a push load design" balljoint.
This was never answered.I will update if i ever hear from the specialists that Jochen refers to.

I did however check with a national dealer of Lemfoerder..and they had a set of these early type LCA"s in stock..and i emailed them back and forth..and i finally got some pictures of the ones they have in stock..and these Lemfoerder arms have both LEmfoerder balljoint....AND they are made in Italy...NOT Taiwan like the ones i have.

So for now..its the end of the story.
I kinda liked the fact that Lemfoerder wanted to "use my video" for investigation and training.Pretty cool :)
 
Top