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Primary pump in the transmission

alexis

E500E Newbie
Hi,
Apparently, I have just broken the primary pump in the transmission of my E 500...
It happened as I was driving at about 50 mph without pushing the car. The transmission suddenly started doing a whining noise when accelerating but only until something like 2500 rpm ; it has lost some oil but the oil left is of the right color.
Trans is only 12000 miles old, OEM and fitted by MB. The car is at the MB dealer shop.
Any idea, suggestion, bad news ?
 

gsxr

.036 Hoonigan™, E500E Boffin
Staff member
That doesn't sound good. :(

How long ago was the transmission installed at the MB dealer? I believe they have a 2-year, unlimited-mileage warranty now.

:apl:
 

Klink

postwhore posterchild
Staff member
That doesn't sound good. :(

How long ago was the transmission installed at the MB dealer? I believe they have a 2-year, unlimited-mileage warranty now.
Well, that's the MBUSA parts warranty. Unless Alexis is in Paris, Texas, it may be different in his Paris...

That being said, the most common cause of premature primary pump failure post replacement or repair is failure to transfer the locating dowels to the new transmission housing if required...
 

alexis

E500E Newbie
Hi,
OK an update on the gearbox. Apparently, the gearbox drains itself when the car is not driven very often, which is my case (about once every two weeks since about 3 years), the anti return valve always being leaking. Because of that, at every start, the primary pump begins it's cycle not oiled and ends up sizing...
Convertor, primary pump and labour : 4300 €, about 5000 $ !
What do you think of that ? Especially considering that Mercedes does not especially restrict our cars to stand still for few weeks and that there is no special procedure for starting a car with a drained convertor. We just have to await for the bill.
This problem should have been solved by the engineers !
 
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gsxr

.036 Hoonigan™, E500E Boffin
Staff member
The converter cannot drain itself. Literally impossible. However, the fluid can drain out of other transmission internals over extended periods (weeks / months) which normally just results in higher fluid level in the pan, nothing else. I've parked cars for 3-4 YEARS and never had a problem with the trans pump losing prime. Fired up and drove away without issue. You should have zero problems parking for a few weeks at a time.

Sounds like a fishy story to me, but experts like Klink or Jono would know for sure...

:scratchchin: :klink:
 

alexis

E500E Newbie
Your are right Gsxr, I meant the gearbox and not the converter.
And, yes, it also sounds fishy to me...
The gearbox is 14.000 old and I guess the return valve should be able to do it's job properly without leaking.
Furthermore, I don't see why we should change the converter in such circumstances whereas it was working properly...
I go to the dealer's today and will ask for more informations.
Let's wait for more advices (Klink, Jono, Garry, etc.)
 
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Rouven036

.036 Info God (aka "Big R")
I don't believe in this draining story. The oil stays attached to the parts and provides sufficient lubrication on start up. Inside the gearbox you have mainly rotational forces on the bearings but not high loads the same applies for the pump itself.
Imagine what happens in a engine, there the oil has way longer ways to travel, the connecting rod bearings have only the remaining oil film during start up and have to take the load and all the pounding - incomparable to transmission loads.
So I think something went wrong with the installation as KLINK stated (dowel pins) or shit unfortunately happens. Did you face any issues before or noticed anything like delayed engagement of gears, soft/hard shifting etc. Oil level was correct?
 
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Klink

postwhore posterchild
Staff member
Hi,
OK an update on the gearbox. Apparently, the gearbox drains itself when the car is not driven very often, which is my case (about once every two weeks since about 3 years), the anti return valve always being leaking. Because of that, at every start, the primary pump begins it's cycle not oiled and ends up sizing...
Convertor, primary pump and labour : 4300 €, about 5000 $ !
What do you think of that ? Especially considering that Mercedes does not especially restrict our cars to stand still for few weeks and that there is no special procedure for starting a car with a drained convertor. We just have to await for the bill.
This problem should have been solved by the engineers !
This is not a satisfactory explanation for the failure. There’s gobs of fluid everywhere in that front pump, even if the torque converter “drains”. Within a second of start up, probably even while the engine is still cranking, oil is flowing through the filter, through the passages, and into the primary pump, and from there, to everywhere else. A “drained” converter is not a failure promoting issue. Additionally, note that the converter cannot drain any lower than the shaft. As soon as that converter starts to spin, copious quantities of oil will be getting evacuated from it. It should be additionally noteworthy that the converter is completely drained whenever one does a full fluid change. If there was any “special procedure” required, it would be noted then. This was caused by a material or component failure, or almost infinitely more likely, assembly errors.
Again let me repeat that this is exactly the failure that takes place when one or both of the two locating dowel pins between the engine and bell housing are omitted during assembly.
 
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alexis

E500E Newbie
Hi,
Apparently, the dowel pins were in place when they got the gearbox out... But I wasn't there to check just as they won't be able to prove it.
Rouven036, the gearbox, changed 14000 miles and about 7 years ago, was working fine and of course, the oil level was good because regularly checked.
The dealer did not provide any other explanation but the draining due to the lack of use (about 2000 miles a year).
So, the dowel pins excepted, what else could explain such a failure ?
 
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alexis

E500E Newbie
Hi,
Well, I update... Mercedes France has still not responded to my registered letter demanding a financial cover of the problem. That was a month and a half ago...
Apparently, this story is going to finish on court.
That said I have to repair the car. Would anyone have the part number of the convetor and the primary pump please ?
If the Mercedes dealer is not able to maintain the car properly, I don't see why I should let them repairing this primary pump problem...
Thanks
 

Eno

Active member
If I am not mistaken, is this the primary pump you are looking for?
Which part number in the diagram is the primary pump?
I may be wrong, but as per EPC about a year ago for my 1992 500E is this the pump?
I maybe wrong so please check yourself.
74107 74108

74109 74110

74111


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

Duh_Vinci

Active member
This story of how the dealership is treating your transmission issue is terrible! One would think that a dealer installed part, such as transmission would be well covered, for 3 years/36k miles, but I guess not...

Regards,
D
 

alexis

E500E Newbie
Eno, I couldn't tell as I didn't see the part.
Duh_Vinci, The dealer and mercedes Benz France... That is why it may weel ends in court...
Has anyone the web url of the part numer catalog ?
 

alexis

E500E Newbie
Hi,

Back for a quick update and two questions.

As it will be no surprise to anyone, we're going on court. We being the Dealer, MB France and me. We'll see what happens but I don't want to give up too easily...

Before that I have two questions.

On the following diagrams (https://nemigaparts.com/cat_spares/epc/mercedes/1/ga/722365/09t/27/?chasis=12403644S, thanks to Duh_Vinci) :

- where would be the anti return valve preventing the drain of the primary pump ?

- where would be the the two locating dowel pins between the engine and bell housing ?

I want a proper explanation of the Dealer or of MB France so I need to make sure I ask the good questions.

Thanks,

Alex
 
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I dont get it. You are out of warranty. Right? Then it does not matter what the cause is. Things happen parts fail. New cars, old cars, new parts. old part, remanufactured parts. If you buy a new car and do not drive it very much and it breaks with 25 miles on it after 6 years of sitting in your garage it is out of warranty. That is why they have the time as well as mileage explicitly stated. If the dowel pins were not installed and this was the cause of the issue then that is on the dealership as poor workmanship. Again. unless there are laws about this it made it past any warranty period. If you think that they did not install the pins then where did they come from if they have them now years later. Are they brand new looking? Then you might have a chance. You could subpoena the parts department records for these part numbers and then see if they magically had a few move off their books. But that has nothing to do with Mercedes Benz the corporation unless it is a corporate owned dealership
 

gsxr

.036 Hoonigan™, E500E Boffin
Staff member
Photo attached of the dowel pin location. In the picture, one is present, the other is not installed.

These are not shown on the transmission EPC diagrams; they are part of the engine block.
 

Attachments

alexis

E500E Newbie
I dont get it. You are out of warranty. Right? Then it does not matter what the cause is. Things happen parts fail. New cars, old cars, new parts. old part, remanufactured parts. If you buy a new car and do not drive it very much and it breaks with 25 miles on it after 6 years of sitting in your garage it is out of warranty. That is why they have the time as well as mileage explicitly stated. If the dowel pins were not installed and this was the cause of the issue then that is on the dealership as poor workmanship. Again. unless there are laws about this it made it past any warranty period. If you think that they did not install the pins then where did they come from if they have them now years later. Are they brand new looking? Then you might have a chance. You could subpoena the parts department records for these part numbers and then see if they magically had a few move off their books. But that has nothing to do with Mercedes Benz the corporation unless it is a corporate owned dealership
Hi whipplem104,

If the transmission was not properly installed by the dealer, then that is his fault if the transmission failed.

If the Transmission was not properly assembled by Mercedes Benz, then that is the fault of MB France who delivered it to the dealer.

A Mercedes Benz automatc transmission should not break after 7 years and less than 12500 miles, especially when the car has not been abused.

Apparently no one knows why the primary pump failed ; I want to know why and whose fault it is.

And if the gearbox of a Mercedes Benz can fail after 12500 miles, I also want them to explain it to me... and others.
 
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alexis

E500E Newbie
Hi,
Thanks to GSXR for his precisions.
Sorry to ask again but do we know if there is a anti return valve in the transmission preventing the escape of the oil in the primary pump.
Thanks.
 

gsxr

.036 Hoonigan™, E500E Boffin
Staff member
Sorry to ask again but do we know if there is a anti return valve in the transmission preventing the escape of the oil in the primary pump.
Forgot to mention - I don't know the answer to this question. Need an expert like Jono or Klink...

:klink:
 

Eno

Active member
Failure can be not using proper torque on the transmission parts being assembled also.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
7 years. My point is it is irrelevant. And new parts fail all the time under warranty. That is why there is warranty. Just because you do not drive it does not mean that it should last forever. I am not saying it does not suck and that there is no possibility that the tech did something wrong or even that the part that failed was not possibly going t fail and get covered if you had driven 12500 miles in 6 months. Then it would have been covered.

Fix it and move on. If you think that the tech messed up and do not trust the dealer do not use them or ask for another tech, if that guy is even there anymore, and if you think that you have better odds than buying a Mercedes rebuilt transmission, in the aftermarket, then dont buy another one from Mercedes. I do not know what the parts warranty is in France but here in the U.S. you would be out of warranty by 5 years.

Also, I would argue that a car driven far and few between for short distances will last a fraction of the miles as a car driven non stop from day one. I see it over and over again. Customers that drive 30-40k miles or more a year get 400-500k out of there cars with much lower maintenance and repairs per mile than those who barely drive their cars. Who knows. heat cycles, dry startups as stated, condensation, just luck maybe. But I see it all the time. Strange things like seals on oil coolers on the newer diesels, Timing chains, water pumps, etc. etc. Seem to last 2-3 times as long on cars that get the wheels driven off of them.
 

alexis

E500E Newbie
Hi,
whipplem104, I get your point but I have an old Jaguar also and it is more reliable than my MB for the same mileage per year.
Furthermore, I know quite a few people with MB in the garages of their second, third, etc. houses and those cars haven't broke down.
 
I get it. Believe me but you can say the same for anything. You can talk to people that see nothing but troubles and people that see no problems on exactly the same model and year. It is just luck. But go to the dealership and see how many brand new cars are in there getting worked on. Most decent sized dealerships sell somewhere around say 50-100 new cars a month. So on the low side you have 2400 cars in warranty in that region. Say 50% of that dealers service business is warranty at 20-30 cars a day. So 15 cars a day are warranty repairs. Thats a lot of new car repairs. And Mercedes is not really any higher repair rate than anyone else.
 

Eno

Active member
So did you confirm that the primary pump was faulty or another part failed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

alexis

E500E Newbie
HI,
Eno, it is the primary pump that failed, apparently because of the fact the car doesn't drive a lot.
And because it failed, it heated and part of it welded on the convertor axe. So convertor also to change.
 

mercepor

Member
Interesting story.
we imported an e500 limited from Japan (100k km on odometer, but who knows) and we had the same primary pump failure within 2k km....
we don't know why it happened, hopefully the dowel pins are in place.
the pump was completely destroyed, it really surprised the repairing garage which often works on 722.3 trans.
before the complete noisy failure, a quite important oil leaking was a sign that smthing is wrong under the car....

and good luck with your court procedure!
 

TerryA

Active member
Was
Hi,
whipplem104, I get your point but I have an old Jaguar also and it is more reliable than my MB for the same mileage per year.
Furthermore, I know quite a few people with MB in the garages of their second, third, etc. houses and those cars haven't broke down.
Alexis,

Don’t let the out of warranty worry you. I once had a Mitisbushi that was worked on under a 36K mile warranty. The Dealer was in it three times. At 65K miles it failed. When I first went to the Dealer they wanted $4,500.00. I went above the Dealer and complained directly to Mitsubishi Customer Service. Mitsubishi replaced the trans and torque converter for nothing. I paid the Dealer $250.00 for R&R.

Maybe you should try the same tactic. Go to the Mercedes Benz Distributer in France. It’s embarrassing to them to have that kind of failure in 12.5K. Mercedes Benz like other manufacturers don’t like bad publicity.

Give it a try.
 

alexis

E500E Newbie
Hi,
Thanks TerryA, that's what I am trying to do at the moment ; we'll see.
I tried to get in touch via private messages with Klink to get an answer about the anti return valve (?) and later Gerry but got answer from them both.
I don't know if they got my messages...
 

Klink

postwhore posterchild
Staff member
Hi,
Thanks TerryA, that's what I am trying to do at the moment ; we'll see.
I tried to get in touch via private messages with Klink to get an answer about the anti return valve (?) and later Gerry but got answer from them both.
I don't know if they got my messages...
Alexis, I HATE writing this, but here goes:

Yes, there is a check valve in the valve body that prevents the convertor from emptying out. Even if it fails completely, it can't drain to more than just below the center. This failure had NOTHING to do with "not driving the car enough". Zero point zero (0.0). That explanation is so "out there" that there is no point in even arguing with anyone that says that.

It was a defective part, or it was mis-assembled during rebuilding, and/or there were transmission installation errors, such as missing dowel pins. Unless you were standing right there when it came out, you have no idea.

However, ALL this speculation is irrelevant anyway, because, and I think you’ve heard this already, IT'S BEEN SEVEN (7) YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry to yell, but in automotive service warranty terms, that's almost eternity. They could easily argue and will likely prevail that so little use in and of itself alone constitutes "abuse" even though in this case, it is not likely a factor.

I hope you prevail, but I’d be willing to bet that French law is less consumer friendly that US law, and obviously I could be wrong about that, but I can say that here in Yank, you’d likely win only disappointment and a lawyer bill for your troubles.

Again, I sincerely wish you all the best with this endeavor, but I think you’re going to get the hose…

:matrix:
 
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alexis

E500E Newbie
Hi Klink,
Thank you for your information on the valve, it is going to help.
I hear your point of view and the one of others but I do not intend to give up.
I'll keep update.
Alex
 

jhodg5ck

"Nit-Picky and, Bitter Mechanic"
Wait...7 years??

The Longest you'll get anywhere here in the States is 3 years. Doesn't matter if you drove 5 or 500,000 miles. 3 years.

Jono

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