500E 6.0L M119 build with late factory ECU control

[EZZK]

Hello gentlemens. My car is a 2015 C207 E400 coupe, but planning to swap the engine by M119.

Base on the issues about M276 DE30LA VVT lifespan is not reliable, the cam phase is not fixed so after a while the valve timing will become inaccurate and the engine will malfunction. The chain tensioner will loosen after a period of time, which may cause the engine to malfunction. DUE to direct injection, carbon alway stick at back of inlet valves and need to clean frequently. The life of the direct injection system is not very long. Sometimes it depends on luck. Considering the upcoming maintenance and repair costs, I'm planning to replace the M276. It's already reached 200,000 kilometers, so since I'm going to replace the engine, I'll go with a V8.

I stumbled upon a lot of information here and, after reading some articles, began researching the M119. The M119 is relatively simple in structure, and used ones are inexpensive, making it a cost-effective option for a NA conversion.

I plan to enlarge the cylinder with sleeves to 100mm and use the M117's 94.8mm stroke crankshaft, creating a 6.0 V8 engine. Maximum horsepower will be increased to 7,000 rpm, with a fuel cut-off at 8,000 rpm. Forged pistons, reinforced piston pins, and lightweight and lengthened connecting rods will be used. The crankshaft's balanced RPM will be around 8,500 rpm, and the compression ratio will be around 12.5.

The cam duration may need to be increased to 245 to 255 degrees, with 20% additional valve lift. Generally speaking, however, the goal is to optimize intake and exhaust efficiency as much as possible. Only consider replacing the camshafts if you're sure the requirements are still not met. The ECU may utilize two M271 KE18 (presumably Mercedes' latest four-cylinder port injection system) ECUs to drive ignition and injection.

Because the M276 and M271 systems are of the same generation, the engine, transmission, and body systems can function properly. The engine will require the installation of a special trigger plate and a master throttle signal reference to allow independent operation of the two cylinder banks. Other cooling components will also require some upgrades, particularly the cooling water and lubrication systems. The gear ratios will need to be changed to increase the pump speed.

I've spoken with a tuning shop, and the logic and architecture appear to be correct. The M271 KE18 is a supercharged engine system with a wide range of MAP and injection rates, making it highly feasible. If you ever decide to overcharge the engine, this is possible. This resolves the communication issues between the engine, body, and 722.9 transmission. ABS/ESP and the vehicle's electronics will function properly, and it eliminates the need for extensive electronic control program modifications.

This also gives you two throttle bodies. Two air flow meters improve engine response and VE, which is a plus for a NA engine. The target horsepower output is 600HP and the torque is 65-70 kgm.

If I only use the M119 cylinder head, CAM valves, cylinder block, oil plate, oil sump, and the included water and oil pumps, how reliable are these parts? What else should I be aware of?

 

[JC220]

Hi and welcome! I'm not sure how to unpack this epic first post

That's alot of fairly extreme modifications and plans there. What's your budget would be a good start - a 6L conversion is very expensive notwithstanding the other extreme mods mentioned.

 

[gsxr]

Hi and welcome! I'm not sure how to unpack this epic first post

Yep - same here!

That's alot of fairly extreme modifications and plans there. What's your budget would be a good start - a 6L conversion is very expensive notwithstanding the other extreme mods mentioned.

Joe has a good point. You are dealing with 2 separate projects here, and both are massive undertakings on their own. First, just getting the M119 physically installed, bolted up, and integrated with factory ECU and 722.9 will be a HUGE deal. I would very, very strongly recommend installing a bone stock M119 5.0L first, as "proof of concept". If that is successful, THEN build the 6.0L version and swap engines.

The cost for the 6.0L build will be very high, if done properly. I wouldn't use cylinder sleeves - only reason for sleeves is cost savings, but it adds complication and risk. The proper way is what the factory did: bore a closed-deck 5.0L block to 100mm, etch the Alusil cylinder walls, and use pistons designed for Alusil.

I'm not sure if the stock hydraulic lifters will support 8000rpm. Converting to solid lifers will add cost and complexity. I'm not sure why you think modifications are needed to the water pump and oil pump either ("gear ratios changed to increase the pump speed"). The stock components should be fine. You may need a custom oil pan and/or pump pickup, or you could go all-out with dry sump. Depends on the C207 crossmember and if you can make either of the stock M119 oil pans clear (either 124/129/210 pan with front sump, or 140 pan with center sump).

BTW - welcome to the forum!

 

[JC220]

I am slightly wondering if the OP may be using AI content, it kind of seems strange the whole deal and suggestions.

 

[gsxr]

I am slightly wondering if the OP may be using AI content, it kind of seems strange the whole deal and suggestions.

Yeah... that would be a Bad Idea. Trusting AI to provide accurate information about this type of custom conversion will result in an empty bank account and predictably poor results. Using a pair of 4-cyl ECU's doesn't seem feasible to me, but I'm not an electronics expert.

 

[TerryA]

@EZZK,
If you are going thru that much work and huge expense without any proven results, why not just find a later MB V8 w/ around 500HP and be done with it?

 

[EZZK]

Thank you very much for all your responses.

I did something similar on my previous car, a W202 C220, which I installed with an M104 3.2L engine, a turbocharger and intercooler, rewritten ECU+injectors+ignitions, and forged pistons and reinforced connecting rods. The engine produces approximately 450 horsepower, running smoothly after nearly 250,000 kilometers.

Of course, there are many details I haven't post here, including engine installation and alignment, engine mount modifications, electrical system configuration, and subsequent fine-tuning.

This time, the shop is the same as the last one. They originally planned to use a full replacement system like ECUmaster, but using it to generate the factory CAN specifications and handshake the encoding for other auxiliary systems like the transmission, body electronics, and anti-theft system is still very complex.
On new Mercedes-Benzes, CAN signal processing is a major challenge. Any advanced modification will try to avoid signal alignment tuning, which is generally a very time-consuming and laborious task. You have to ensure that the CAN signals you generate are correct, and you also have to face the issue of verifying the internal part numbers of the main systems during installation. This is also why few people opt for a complete ECU replacement in the Mercedes system, especially in architectures that heavily utilize CAN control. Even if you finish the engine, you might still encounter issues like the key won't start, body systems maufunction , and ineffective ESP and ABS control.

Therefore, using two ME271 ECUs is likely the most feasible and easiest solution. Hacking the handshake protocol for the two ECUs' immobilizer systems (or unlocking and recoding them) is time-consuming, but Vediamo can solve this problem. As for other components, since the electronic control signals use the same generation, CAN compatibility issues are significantly reduced. The ignition and injection related sensor specifications for the M276 and M271 are the same.

As for cylinder liners, after bored the cylinder, you can't apply the original cylinder coating. Therefore, dry-fitting the cylinder liners (meaning inserting liners into the existing cylinder barrels rather than completely removing them and replace cast iron cylinders, such as Darton wet sleeve) is the most efficient and less technically demanding method.

This approach has a significant advantage: you can choose the material based on the intended use. I'd probably use heat-resistant tool steel (such as H11) for the cylinders. This material is specially formulated for high-temperature processing. Even under prolonged exposure to temperatures of 600°C, it maintains exceptional strength and has a high surface hardness. It doesn't require any coating and won't necessarily deteriorate even if the engine is delubed.
At the same time, forged pistons and rings compatiable to sleeve is necessary.

And someone asked why not use the same generation V8?
The AMG M278 twin-turbo V8 has poor reliability. Cylinder wear is a possibility, and it shares all the issues of the M276. Maintenance and repair costs are two to three times as much, making it a poor choice

 

[gsxr]

As for cylinder liners, after bored the cylinder, you can't apply the original cylinder coating. Therefore, dry-fitting the cylinder liners (meaning inserting liners into the existing cylinder barrels rather than completely removing them and replace cast iron cylinders, such as Darton wet sleeve) is the most efficient and less technically demanding method.

There is no "coating" on M119 Alusil block cylinder bores. After boring to 100mm, the surface is etched. Details are in this document. I never understand why everyone jumps to inserting iron liners in the M119. Probably because they can't find a local shop that knows how to bore/etch Alusil? Messing with liners will potentially cause other issues, but it's your money.

And someone asked why not use the same generation V8? The AMG M278 twin-turbo V8 has poor reliability. Cylinder wear is a possibility, and it shares all the issues of the M276. Maintenance and repair costs are two to three times as much, making it a poor choice

M278 or M157 would definitely not be a good choice. I think the question was referring to the M156/M159, which would get you to 600hp with far fewer modifications, and it will spin to 8000rpm no problem. This should be far less expensive than performing massive modifications to the M119. And, you can leave the entire bottom end / short block bone stock.

 

[EZZK]

There is no "coating" on M119 Alusil block cylinder bores. After boring to 100mm, the surface is etched. Details are in this document. I never understand why everyone jumps to inserting iron liners in the M119. Probably because they can't find a local shop that knows how to bore/etch Alusil? Messing with liners will potentially cause other issues, but it's your money.

M278 or M157 would definitely not be a good choice. I think the question was referring to the M156/M159, which would get you to 600hp with far fewer modifications, and it will spin to 8000rpm no problem. This should be far less expensive than performing massive modifications to the M119. And, you can leave the entire bottom end / short block bone stock.

Thank you for the information. This clarifies my previous belief that the cylinders had a wear-resistant coating.So the M119 also has cylinder liners, but they're made of a wear-resistant aluminum alloy.

The M156 is still not cheap(usually 5000+) and has seen its fair share of failures, in comparison, the M119 unit is priced at 1300-1500USD avg., which is very affordable. While later M156s don't suffer from the severe problems of broken cylinder screws, worn cam sprockets, valve cap and cam wear, and cylinder soaking as earlier models, the valve cap and cam wear issues haven't been significantly addressed in later models, and they can still experience annoying VVT failures.

The M159 doesn't have these issues, but it belong to SLS so it's very expensive and uneasy to find. As far as I know, the M156 requires replacing specific M159 components. But even after addressing these issues, you still have to deal with the cumbersome issue of CAN signal pairing. Because the M156/159 and M276DE are different generations of control systems, as far as I know, there are very few gateway products that can decode and match Mercedes CAN signals. Without these, you'd have to detect each CAN signal individually, otherwise there's no guarantee that the system will function properly.

In Taiwan, where one-third of the cars on the road are Mercedes-Benzes, it's easy to get relevant information or quality issues. Every major forum is filled with people discussing these issues day in and day out. Almost none of the new-generation AMG DOHC V8s are reliable enough, and none have been free of major failures. The latest M177 4.0V8 has a serious problem with cylinder soaking causing connecting rod bent or misalignment. You can't imagine such a sophisticated and expensive engine having such poor quality.

 

[gsxr]

Thank you for the information. This clarifies my previous belief that the cylinders had a wear-resistant coating.So the M119 also has cylinder liners, but they're made of a wear-resistant aluminum alloy.

Factory Mercedes and AMG M119's never used liners, Alusil or otherwise. That document shows that aluminum liner inserts can be used, but Mercedes didn't have them on original builds.

The M156 is still not cheap(usually 5000+) and has seen its fair share of failures, in comparison, the M119 unit is priced at 1300-1500USD avg., which is very affordable. While later M156s don't suffer from the severe problems of broken cylinder screws, worn cam sprockets, valve cap and cam wear, and cylinder soaking as earlier models, the valve cap and cam wear issues haven't been significantly addressed in later models, and they can still experience annoying VVT failures.

You'll probably spend $10-$15k USD building an M119 6.0L... which makes the $3500 extra cost for M156 look like a bargain. New style head bolts take care of the bolt issue. The valvetrain problems are, IMO, largely due to either incorrect oil used and/or not changing the oil frequently enough. There are some aftermarket solutions for the VVT wear plates as well. Bottom line, the M156 mechanical issues can all be resolved, and little custom fabrication will be required. This would be soooo much easier than building the M119. And much, much cheaper. Now, if you just swap in a stock M119, that's different... this would be by far the least expensive option.

The M159 doesn't have these issues, but it belong to SLS so it's very expensive and uneasy to find. As far as I know, the M156 requires replacing specific M159 components. But even after addressing these issues, you still have to deal with the cumbersome issue of CAN signal pairing. Because the M156/159 and M276DE are different generations of control systems, as far as I know, there are very few gateway products that can decode and match Mercedes CAN signals. Without these, you'd have to detect each CAN signal individually, otherwise there's no guarantee that the system will function properly.

Yeah, the M159 is really just a modified/upgraded M156, and likely wouldn't be affordable. I didn't realize there would be control issues with the M156 though. Not sure I understand why, if you can get the M271 ECU to control an M119, not sure why it couldn't do the same with an M156?

In Taiwan, where one-third of the cars on the road are Mercedes-Benzes, it's easy to get relevant information or quality issues. Every major forum is filled with people discussing these issues day in and day out. Almost none of the new-generation AMG DOHC V8s are reliable enough, and none have been free of major failures. The latest M177 4.0V8 has a serious problem with cylinder soaking causing connecting rod bent or misalignment. You can't imagine such a sophisticated and expensive engine having such poor quality.

Yeah... the M278, M157, M177 engines all have severe problems. It's pretty sad, as it means a lot of the V8 models from about 2013 and newer, are a huge gamble to own.

 

[EZZK]

Factory Mercedes and AMG M119's never used liners, Alusil or otherwise. That document shows that aluminum liner inserts can be used, but Mercedes didn't have them on original builds.

Got it.

You'll probably spend $10-$15k USD building an M119 6.0L... which makes the $3500 extra cost for M156 look like a bargain. New style head bolts take care of the bolt issue. The valvetrain problems are, IMO, largely due to either incorrect oil used and/or not changing the oil frequently enough. There are some aftermarket solutions for the VVT wear plates as well. Bottom line, the M156 mechanical issues can all be resolved, and little custom fabrication will be required. This would be soooo much easier than building the M119. And much, much cheaper. Now, if you just swap in a stock M119, that's different... this would be by far the least expensive option.

The assembly cost here is not that high. Usually, the assembly cost of older models is relatively cheap if they are not very old or rare. W126/C126 can still be seen on the road here. My job is related to machining and mechanical engineering, so it is relatively cheap and easy for me to do these things.
For example, the price of my W202 swap a M104 engine is around $3,500-4,000 USD, including the engine.

Yeah, the M159 is really just a modified/upgraded M156, and likely wouldn't be affordable. I didn't realize there would be control issues with the M156 though. Not sure I understand why, if you can get the M271 ECU to control an M119, not sure why it couldn't do the same with an M156?

Of course it is possible, but the M156 engine has a very bad reputation here. Not many people dare to buy a used 63 car. I don’t dare to buy one either, haha

Yeah... the M278, M157, M177 engines all have severe problems. It's pretty sad, as it means a lot of the V8 models from about 2013 and newer, are a huge gamble to own.

Someone mentioned the AMG 55 series, especially the M113K, as a worthwhile option. It offers solid quality, high horsepower, and easy to mod. However, I'm currently looking for the NA configuration. The M113K, due to these features, is a popular choice for engine swaps, so its used price here is relatively high.

 

[gsxr]

The assembly cost here is not that high. Usually, the assembly cost of older models is relatively cheap if they are not very old or rare. W126/C126 can still be seen on the road here. My job is related to machining and mechanical engineering, so it is relatively cheap and easy for me to do these things. For example, the price of my W202 swap a M104 engine is around $3,500-4,000 USD, including the engine.

The main problem is the custom components and machining. Pistons, rods, rings, crankshaft, camshafts are all $$$$ unless you are getting budget parts from China. If you can do the engineering and machining, that will help reduce the costs quite a bit, ditto if you can build the engine yourself.

Of course it is possible, but the M156 engine has a very bad reputation here. Not many people dare to buy a used 63 car. I don’t dare to buy one either, haha

The M156 problems are grossly blown out of proportion. A very low percentage of M156 have any of the failures mentioned. The head bolts can be replaced proactively without pulling the heads. The VVT issues are even less common, but there are upgrades available to fix those as well. With the bad repuation maybe you can get a great deal on one of those "very bad" M156 engines!

Someone mentioned the AMG 55 series, especially the M113K, as a worthwhile option. It offers solid quality, high horsepower, and easy to mod. However, I'm currently looking for the NA configuration. The M113K, due to these features, is a popular choice for engine swaps, so its used price here is relatively high.

The M113K would be an ideal engine for all the reasons you mention, but yeah, it's not a high-revving NA motor.

 

[duuder]

As an owner of an M156, it's a very user friendly platform to work on - my clk bs, technically the first car I worked on

Im debating on getting an Ml63, specifically with an M156 and am working on stuffing an M156 engine in my 500E as I have access to a low mileage spare... I'll be doing every upgrade (bolts, phasers, bs tappets, cams) to that engine, I'll never have to open it up again

 

[duuder]

And you're probably in the high 20's for the M119 6.0 once everything is done..

 

[Draginev]

I would invest in M113k, it's less headache, supercharged and no turbo lags and also very very very reliable for the long run and parts still exist.