Avoiding Riduculous PayPal Fees for 500Eboard Parts Transactions

[gerryvz]

I’m just going to make a personal announcement here, to those folks who buy parts from me in the future.

From now on, I WILL NOT ACCEPT PayPal transactions (payments) where payment is made to me and then I am required to “eat” the PayPal fees, where the fee is deducted from the final amount of money that I receive.

In the future, If I receive any PayPal payment where fees are deducted from the amount I receive, said payment will be immediately refunded, and the item will continue to be made available for sale to anyone wanting it.

I am sick and tired of this unfairness, as I am NOT making huge margins/profits on most of the parts I sell, and also because fee-free options exist on PayPal. I have never in nearly 20 years been accused of stiffing anyone nor shipping a shoddy part. The couple of times I’ve been asked for a refund, I’ve provided it promptly.

I think it’s only courteous that I should not have to eat PayPal’s 10-15% fees. There is one overseas Member who does fee transactions, but he is ALWAYS careful to include extra money to offset the fees that are deducted. That is appreciated and the courteous thing to do if you need the additional protection of a “fee” transaction on PayPal.

It’s not about the amounts of money involved — it’s about the principle of sticking others with YOUR fees — especially when fee-free options exist.

I don’t care what others do, but in the future I WILL NOT ACCEPT transactions that am charge ME the fees, and all said transactions will be immediately reversed/refunded.

Thanks
Gerry

 

[steve h]

I agree totally, PayPal fees are daylight robbery.

 

[nocfn]

I pay all the fees Honch….

 

[gerryvz]

I pay all the fees Honch….

Yes, for you there is an extra, automatic parts surcharge.

 

[gsxr]

I *totally* agree about the fees, btw. But it's not 10-15%... only 3-5%.



https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees

 

[Ntrepid]

I completely understand this frustration. In the past, I have used a PayPal Fee calculator (PayPal Invoice Fee Calculator | Bonsai) for those who insist on using it for “insurance” reasons (clearly, if you don’t trust people who are this Board, you may want to think about this as an option so the other party does not incur the expense).

Another thought GVZ is you should return their money using PayPal so they can understand the pain of the fees.


Robert

 

[gerryvz]

I *totally* agree about the fees, btw. But it's not 10-15%... only 3-5%.



https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees

View attachment 93028

Uhhhh, no. I just had yesterday a fee of $3.38 on a part purchase price of $45. My calculations (via my HP11c) tell me that that amount is 7.5%. If you factor in the shipping cost, it came to 4.8%.

 

[gerryvz]

I completely understand this frustration. In the past, I have used a PayPal Fee calculator (PayPal Invoice Fee Calculator | Bonsai) for those who insist on using it for “insurance” reasons (clearly, if you don’t trust people who are this Board, you may want to think about this as an option so the other party does not incur the expense).

Another thought GVZ is you should return their money using PayPal so they can understand the pain of the fees.


Robert

The problem is, when you refund the payments, not all of the fees are included, so not all of the payment is actually refunded. Meaning more fees are eaten. If people would just use "Friends and Family" that makes it all seamless, or just factor in an additional 5% or so, and add it to the total if you want to do a fee transaction. Again, it's not GVZ niggling over $3.38 of fees, it's GVZ getting cranky that he gets stuck with fees that he should not have to pay.

If I was making 10x margins on parts, that may be a different story. But c'mon, when I buy a 400E EZL at the yard for $30, and sell it for $50, and then get $4 or 5 of fees needlessly subtracted from the cost ... it makes it really not worth it.

 

[gsxr]

Uhhhh, no. I just had yesterday a fee of $3.38 on a part purchase price of $45. My calculations (via my HP11c) tell me that that amount is 7.5%. If you factor in the shipping cost, it came to 4.8%.

Link I posted above shows international fees are 4.4% plus a "fixed fee based on currency received". An additional 3% is steep. Can you click into the fee detail in your account and see exactly what is triggering the 7.5% total?

Regardless, I agree, requiring a F+F payment is the way to go. Or simply tacking on a 10% surcharge for international payments.

 

[Ntrepid]

The problem is, when you refund the payments, not all of the fees are included, so not all of the payment is actually refunded.

Totally get it. I was saying you should *pay* (not refund) them the money They sent so that they can understand the pain of the fees.


Robert

 

[gsxr]

I thought if a refund was issued, 100% went back to the original sender - no?

I get what Robert is saying, to "pay" back, not refund.

 

[gerryvz]

I've had numerous times when I've issued refunds, when not quite all of the money was refunded and PP ends up netting a further dollar or two. Adding insult to injury. I just use the blanket PayPal "refund to sender" function. And they keep some of the fee themselves.

It goes like this, for example (totals being made up):

Buyer sends PP (non friends and family) for $50.
Seller receives $47.50 (netting PP $2.50).
Seller refunds received $47.50 payment back to Buyer using PP "refund" function.
Buyer receives refund of $48.50 (PP is the only one that makes out, even with the refund).

The thing is with paying back a payer, is that then they can accuse you of not sending them the full fee and keeping some for yourself, forcing you to send them a screen shot of what happened.

 

[nocfn]

Gerry unless you are a retail outfit, it is generally expected that the buyer pays the fees. Make that part of your "advert" for the product you sell - buyer pays all the paypal fees or the deal is off.

 

[gerryvz]

See this transaction from my PP from a while back, to illustrate my last post.

You see the transaction ($30.00), my net, my refund, and the additional fee that PP took from the refund.

The net-net is that the buyer received $29.13 after the reversal, because they put an additional "reversal" fee on the transaction. So they didn't add all of the fees originally taken back into the refund, so everyone gets stiffed.

 

[gerryvz]

Gerry unless you are a retail outfit, it is generally expected that the buyer pays the fees. Make that part of your "advert" for the product you sell - buyer pays all the paypal fees or the deal is off.

Yes, I will make it clear that all transactions involving myself and PayPal henceforth will either be "Friends and Family" or will result in all fees being covered by the buyer, UP FRONT, before product is shipped.

 

[2phast]

Uhhhh, no. I just had yesterday a fee of $3.38 on a part purchase price of $45. My calculations (via my HP11c) tell me that that amount is 7.5%. If you factor in the shipping cost, it came to 4.8%.

I just ran the number on a bunch of payments I received, roughly comes to 3%. Can't find any that don't jive with that percentage.

 

[2phast]

Yes, I will make it clear that all transactions involving myself and PayPal henceforth will either be "Friends and Family" or will result in all fees being covered by the buyer, UP FRONT, before product is shipped.

You could always add 3% to your asking price, that would fix the fee issue.

 

[JC220]

You could always add 3% to your asking price, that would fix the fee issue.

Except that would be penalizing everyone even those who DO know to pay someone and not land them with PP fees.

I sell parts too and always tell people up front it is friends or family only. The odd one slips through and those people respond with "I didn't have that option!" Yeah right.

 

[gerryvz]

I just ran the number on a bunch of payments I received, roughly comes to 3%. Can't find any that don't jive with that percentage.

Well, do the math. The numbers don't lie.

The item was $45.00. The postage (overseas) was $25.00. So, the total payment was $70.00

The total fees taken were $3.38.



Out of a $70.00 transaction, that is 4.83%, according to Bill Hewlett & Dave Packard (1980s technology).

Out of a $45.00 transaction, that is 7.51%.

 

[2phast]

Except that would be penalizing everyone even those who DO know to pay someone and not land them with PP fees.

I sell parts too and always tell people up front it is friends or family only. The odd one slips through and those people respond with "I didn't have that option!" Yeah right.

On a $200 transaction, its a additional $6. Thats not much of a penalty. I actually prefer payments made the normal way through PayPal, makes printing labels much easier instead of copying/pasting addresses into PayPal's multi-order system.

If we are going to complain about fees, lets complain about EBay's fees, those have gotten out of hand and excessive (compared to PayPal).

Credit card fees are roughly the same, but its next to impossible to figure out exactly. I think the CC companies do that on purpose. You have a monthly fee just to accept a CC and fees based on the card type etc. etc.

 

[2phast]

Well, do the math. The numbers don't lie.

The item was $45.00. The postage (overseas) was $25.00. So, the total payment was $70.00

The total fees taken were $3.38.

View attachment 93036

Out of a $70.00 transaction, that is 4.83%, according to Bill Hewlett & Dave Packard (1980s technology).

Out of a $45.00 transaction, that is 7.71%.

Looks like your paying more fees that I am. Maybe upgrade to a business account, which is what I have.

 

[gerryvz]

You mean that people still use eBay to buy and sell things ? Really?

@W124performance excepted, of course, due to extensive use of 1990s/early 2000s technology.

 

[gerryvz]

Looks like your paying more fees that I am. Maybe upgrade to a business account, which is what I have.

I don't do enough business to justify a business account. Selling parts for me is really more of a service to the community than an income-generating activity.

Maybe I can create my own fees here -- perhaps $1.00 for each megabyte of data transferred from the site (outbound) to each member.

 

[2phast]

You mean that people still use eBay to buy and sell things ? Really?

@W124performance excepted, of course, due to extensive use of 1990s/early 2000s technology.

Why not? Only downside now is EBay is collecting tax on everything based on your state. Eats into your savings and you can't just go to Amazon either as they are doing the same. I find myself hunting for online sellers and going through the motions to make a purchase to determine if they are charging tax. Many companies that are not required to collect tax seem to be collecting tax as well. Logistical nightmare to collect and submit all those taxes.

 

[2phast]

I don't do enough business to justify a business account. Selling parts for me is really more of a service to the community than an income-generating activity.

Maybe I can create my own fees here -- perhaps $1.00 for each megabyte of data transferred from the site (outbound) to each member.

It does not cost anything as far as I know and since my fees are roughly 3%, does not seem to be a downside for you.

I also don't see the transaction fee problem you mentioned, if I refund $50, the fee is refunded and the customer is not charged.

 

[gsxr]

Rik, how many international transactions do you get? Does a PP business account reduce international fees to "only" ~3%?

 

[maw1124]

This whole PayPal fee discussion is new to me. Quite frankly, I didn’t think about fees or how much, but of course it makes sense. Another option to consider here, guys, is the Zelle bank to bank transfers which I believe are fee-less. This is the equivalent to Chase Quick-Pay which I now think works inter-bank. I don’t really need PayPal in the middle of any transaction for me. It’s just a convenient buffer, but they really don’t help resolve any conflict. Quite the contrary, the way their “system” works it almost encourages people to take advantage. Ask me how I know.

$.02

maw

 

[2phast]

Rik, how many international transactions do you get? Does a PP business account reduce international fees to "only" ~3%?

I don't know if there is any sort of limit to international transactions. For the last transaction I had from the UK, the fee was 4.5%

 

[Kyiv]

I am sick and tired of this unfairness

when I've issued refunds, when not quite all of the money was refunded and PP ends up netting a further dollar or two. Adding insult to injury.

PayPal used to charge 1.9% for over $100k (if I remember correctly) accounts then it became 2.9% flat, business account or not. And now they are keeping their fee even when there is a refund - for whatever reason. it's a new thing. What can regular person do about it? Nothing, shut up an obey

I honestly think these untamed, unchecked, ultra mega large corporations that form industry oligopolies are a curse on American society and are actively destroying it. This is my outsider's perspective and I'm the opposite of a Bernie Sanders supporter

Logistical nightmare to collect and submit all those taxes.

With sales tax return it is easier now. Just punch all eBay sales into one cell on a return and that's that. No need to sift through sales and secrete which ones came from which state

 

[alabbasi]

Just request a personal payment (the option where you send to a friend). No fees are charged to either party.

 

[rucraig]

... I sell parts too and always tell people up front it is friends or family only. The odd one slips through and those people respond with "I didn't have that option!" Yeah right.

Actually if, like me, you don’t have a bank account linked to PayPal for security reasons, you don’t get the F&F option. I found out the hard way, by inadvertently causing Gerry to have to eat the fees on a Lamin-x purchase. I’ve now apologised and sent additional payment to cover that.

 

[gerryvz]

Just request a personal payment (the option where you send to a friend). No fees are charged to either party.

@alabbasi -- exactly. Most people generally figure this out one way or another. For me, it's perhaps 20% of the time when I get a fee-transaction. I have never been sure (at least in my case) what people are "protecting" themselves against with a fee-based transaction, with a part sale to the owner/operator of this site .... certainly a known quantity after being in the 500E community since 2003.

@rucraig -- no worries, I was just using this transaction as an example, not impugning any specific individual.

I know there are other payment schemes out there (Venmo, Zelle, ChasePay, ApplePay, and so forth). I think many of them are geared toward the younger set. But for those of us who have been using eBay and other various online merchants for decades, PayPal is very convenient and it works quite well and reliably -- and fee free when done correctly. And most EVERYONE is familiar with it, and/or has an account capable of using PayPal.

So I hate to stop using it, as it is the easiest way to rapidly pay. Heck, I sometimes even pay the fees for this site using PayPal (the hosting company accepts it as an option). It's just that the fees blow chunks.

OK, I'm done.....said my rant ..... moving on. But please, continue.... in the future I will be MUCH MORE EXPLICIT with regards to the PayPal "F&F" option being used for payments, when I advertise parts for sale.

 

[alabbasi]

Known quantities is the key. I recently bought a parts car from someone I didn't know and used PayPal to 'purchase' where I just added the 3 percent so that he nets out. I was glad that I did because the deal started to change almost immediately after I paid.

Some sellers can be squirrly, so can some buyers so it has a place. For everybody that I've met here, I expect that their integrity is more important than a used car part.

 

[gerryvz]

In 10.5 years running this site, I've only been aware of 1-2 situations that have been truly "sketchy" with buyers/sellers (not anything I personally have been involved with). The integrity level here has been overall very very high.

And much much higher than I saw, say 20 years ago, with the leadership of the M-100 Group.

 

[Kyiv]

On the topic of fees. Eventually, once everyone's been conditioned, they'll keep processing fees when refund takes place, for now it's just an increase

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

 

[gsxr]

Actually if, like me, you don’t have a bank account linked to PayPal for security reasons, you don’t get the F&F option.

There is an easy solution for this, discussed previously on the forum somewhere. You need to set up a new, separate account at your bank and link it to PayPal. Keep the balance very low, like $50. Don't use the account for anything else. This method has the following advantages:

1) It pacifies PayPal and 'unlocks' more of their features, since they think they are tapped into your monies. (Heh.)
2) If for any reason PayPal tries to suck funds out of your account (i.e., buyer dispute), all they can get is the ~$50 you have in there.
3) If you sell items on eBay and want to transfer funds to your bank, it's much quicker to do this electronically, than request a paper check (and, I think PP charges for a paper check now). As soon as the funds hit your "PP only" account, transfer the same amount to your normal accounts, and PP is back to only having access to ~$50.

 

[LWB250]

There is an easy solution for this, discussed previously on the forum somewhere. You need to set up a new, separate account at your bank and link it to PayPal. Keep the balance very low, like $50. Don't use the account for anything else. This method has the following advantages:

1) It pacifies PayPal and 'unlocks' more of their features, since they think they are tapped into your monies. (Heh.)
2) If for any reason PayPal tries to suck funds out of your account (i.e., buyer dispute), all they can get is the ~$50 you have in there.
3) If you sell items on eBay and want to transfer funds to your bank, it's much quicker to do this electronically, than request a paper check (and, I think PP charges for a paper check now). As soon as the funds hit your "PP only" account, transfer the same amount to your normal accounts, and PP is back to only having access to ~$50.

This was my approach to prevent buyers who come back after 2-3 months and try to return stuff. I could find the post if someone wants to get the details, but gsxr has summed it up well. Some years back eBay started favoring the buyers big time and I had one try and return something nearly two months after it was sold. I used this method to prevent PP/ebay from clawing the money back to give to the buyer. They threatened to ban me, but at this point I didn't really care. I think they froze my PP account for a few months and then, quietly and without fanfare, it was reactivated.

Jerks.

For any Mercedes person, I use F&F. I've never been stiffed by anyone, and we all know each other well enough that word would travel quickly if someone wasn't playing nice.

Dan