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Camshaft adjustments for performance improvement
- Thread starter Jim
- Start date
Yo Emp! You gonna reel in your apprentice here, or what ?!?
I'm sorry, i guess i used the wrong term all the time. What i meant was "shims" that are needed to put under the hydraulic lifters/tappets.
So, shim thickness should be ideally like the thickness the base circle was reduced?
So, shim thickness should be ideally like the thickness the base circle was reduced?
http://www.bar-tek-tuning.com/Schrick-Ventil-Einstellkappen-0867-13.htm
So 1mm lash cap should do the job. Does anyone know if the latest M104 lifters (57g) share the 2.05 adjust range?
So 1mm lash cap should do the job. Does anyone know if the latest M104 lifters (57g) share the 2.05 adjust range?
I always thought that we need flat shims.
In the description of that article it says that its made/needed for a change to mechanical (non-hydraulic) lifters.
The (late+weight reduced) M119/M104 Lifters are identical IIRC. Dont have EPC handy right now
I just wanted to push up my experience with cams on the m104 which is nearly identical to the m119. I have modified cams near the same spec as the 3.6 amg motor but also the exhaust side. This is also close to what the old shrick cams were. The gains were not worth the investment. Really could not do much more though I wanted to. This was also on a supercharged engine with a custom intake and headers. The bottom line is that the heads on these old engines flow pretty well. To really do anything serious that would result in real gains requires the heads to be modified, new springs larger diameter buckets to utilized higher lift becuase you do not want your base circle to get to small because the bucket will bind up if it is not in far enough, etc. I spent a lot of time talking to camshaft shops and machine shops and the bill was going to get pretty crazy. Starting to look at $4-$6k.
As said you could push your peak power around a bit and if you were going to build it to really breath on the top end and did things like custom intake and exhaust then I think some serious gains could be had.
As far as cam timing goes again benz did a really good job on this. The lobe separation is excellent and the cylinder filling from the intake advance is great and the switch point is really well optimized overall. I have moved all this stuff all over the place with losses or no gains from everything. I would say that a true variable setup would make a big difference but that is not going to happen.
As much as I want cams to make a big difference as well as you guys my 2 cents is spend your money somewhere else. To me it is like AMG boring out the motor for .1 gains. This is like saying you are going .010 over sized when rebuilding an engine.
As said you could push your peak power around a bit and if you were going to build it to really breath on the top end and did things like custom intake and exhaust then I think some serious gains could be had.
As far as cam timing goes again benz did a really good job on this. The lobe separation is excellent and the cylinder filling from the intake advance is great and the switch point is really well optimized overall. I have moved all this stuff all over the place with losses or no gains from everything. I would say that a true variable setup would make a big difference but that is not going to happen.
As much as I want cams to make a big difference as well as you guys my 2 cents is spend your money somewhere else. To me it is like AMG boring out the motor for .1 gains. This is like saying you are going .010 over sized when rebuilding an engine.
Russell, thank you for sharing your experience. I have strongly suspected exactly what you describe above.
I'd still like to see dyno graphs from an M119 with Hagmann cams, and also find out what the base circle is on Hagmann (not that it matters much anymore, they are NLA).
I agree 100%. MB did a great job with cams and timing.
With respect to shims, on engines that use shim under bucket,
the valve spring retainer is designed to hold the shim securely.
I don't believe that the stock M119 valve spring retainer
has the depth to hold a 1mm shim in that manner.
Here's some images from EPC
Retainers from a W201.034 2.3-16 which uses shim under bucket
and from a M119.
You can see in the first image, the 2.3-16 retainer (#20)
has a raised portion to house the shim (#56).
The bottom/second image from the M119 is much flatter.
Retainers from a W201.034 2.3-16 which uses shim under bucket
and from a M119.
You can see in the first image, the 2.3-16 retainer (#20)
has a raised portion to house the shim (#56).
The bottom/second image from the M119 is much flatter.
Attachments
The spring changes were made to minimize rattling noises, especially during start up. There is no change in the performance. And for those that may not know, the cam adjusters on the M119 are not continuously variable. The solenoid and it's dependent valve are either fully open or fully closed, and the camshaft is either fully advanced or fully retarded.
Last edited:
I translated that AMG 500SL 6.0 document camshaft section:
Camshaft
intake and exhaust camshafts have a modified cam profile. Camshafts are marked from the rear on the flange: • Inlet camshaft with "15", • Outlet camshaft with "1 O"
Control times The valve drive is set to the changed control times. The values for cylinders 1 and 6 can be read directly on the vibration damper.
Setting control times
The control times are adjusted by turning the camshaft adjuster on the inlet side and the camshaft wheel on the outlet side. For this purpose, the 3 holes 0 7.45 H12 of these two parts are machined into oblong holes. The locating pins in the camshaft flanges must be omitted because of the possibility of twisting. The dowel pin hole in the flanged shaft is closed by a cover. The oil inflow and outflow in the flanged shaft are reduced so that they are not covered in the extreme positions.
Basic adjustment
1 Assemble the valve drive. Make sure that the dowel pin holes of the flange shaft or the camshaft gear and the camshaft flanges are superimposed.
2 On the exhaust-side camshaft gears, it is only necessary to tighten the 3 collar bolts in the center of the long-hand chain.
3 Set the "X" between the screw head and the lowering of the flange shaft to 8.5 mm on the left cylinder row (cylinder 5 -8). 3.2 Set the right cylinder row (cylinder 1 -4) to "7.8" Mm.
Fine adjustment
1 Determine control times. To do this, place the probe on the dial gauge on cylinder 6 and cylinder 1 vertically with a 3 mm preload. Note intake and exhaust timing at 2 mm valve lift.
2 In the case of deviations from the setpoint value:
inlet side
2.1 Remove timing chain and camshaft adjuster as far as the flanged shaft, loosen the collar screws and correct the ratchet position of the "X" .
Note: A deviation of the crankshaft angle by 2 ° (= 1 ° camshaft angle) 0,6mm at the circumference of the mounting hole circle of the flange shaft
2.2 Reassemble the valve assembly.
On the outlet side
2.3 Place the measuring probe of the dial gauge vertically on the corresponding pushrod with a 3 mm pretension.
2.4 Set engine to 14 ° before TDC.
2.5 Loosen the collar screws of the camshaft sprocket lever-II and the camshaft m, t spanner SW 27 between the cams 4 and 5 so that the 2 mm valve stroke is reached.
2.6 Tighten the bracing screw to 18 Nm.
3 Check the control times. '.... a deviation from setpoint still exists, repeat operation.
So there need to be some kind plug to intake camshaft where dovel pin located? Or in camgear?
Camshaft
intake and exhaust camshafts have a modified cam profile. Camshafts are marked from the rear on the flange: • Inlet camshaft with "15", • Outlet camshaft with "1 O"
Control times The valve drive is set to the changed control times. The values for cylinders 1 and 6 can be read directly on the vibration damper.
Setting control times
The control times are adjusted by turning the camshaft adjuster on the inlet side and the camshaft wheel on the outlet side. For this purpose, the 3 holes 0 7.45 H12 of these two parts are machined into oblong holes. The locating pins in the camshaft flanges must be omitted because of the possibility of twisting. The dowel pin hole in the flanged shaft is closed by a cover. The oil inflow and outflow in the flanged shaft are reduced so that they are not covered in the extreme positions.
Basic adjustment
1 Assemble the valve drive. Make sure that the dowel pin holes of the flange shaft or the camshaft gear and the camshaft flanges are superimposed.
2 On the exhaust-side camshaft gears, it is only necessary to tighten the 3 collar bolts in the center of the long-hand chain.
3 Set the "X" between the screw head and the lowering of the flange shaft to 8.5 mm on the left cylinder row (cylinder 5 -8). 3.2 Set the right cylinder row (cylinder 1 -4) to "7.8" Mm.
Fine adjustment
1 Determine control times. To do this, place the probe on the dial gauge on cylinder 6 and cylinder 1 vertically with a 3 mm preload. Note intake and exhaust timing at 2 mm valve lift.
2 In the case of deviations from the setpoint value:
inlet side
2.1 Remove timing chain and camshaft adjuster as far as the flanged shaft, loosen the collar screws and correct the ratchet position of the "X" .
Note: A deviation of the crankshaft angle by 2 ° (= 1 ° camshaft angle) 0,6mm at the circumference of the mounting hole circle of the flange shaft
2.2 Reassemble the valve assembly.
On the outlet side
2.3 Place the measuring probe of the dial gauge vertically on the corresponding pushrod with a 3 mm pretension.
2.4 Set engine to 14 ° before TDC.
2.5 Loosen the collar screws of the camshaft sprocket lever-II and the camshaft m, t spanner SW 27 between the cams 4 and 5 so that the 2 mm valve stroke is reached.
2.6 Tighten the bracing screw to 18 Nm.
3 Check the control times. '.... a deviation from setpoint still exists, repeat operation.
So there need to be some kind plug to intake camshaft where dovel pin located? Or in camgear?
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