Flipping Cars

[Ron500E]

Since we're on the subject I thought I'd share my recent experience.
1) I was looking for a Bentley Continental T. There was a low mileage (26,000) example on eBay that was a no sale at $52. The dealer wanted $79.
There was another example with 54K miles that actually sold for high $40's/low 50's in a dealer to dealer sale. That same car was listed for $75K OBO 10 days later at the new dealer. It should be noted that the first dealer bought it from another dealer...
The OBO part is important because someone who wants the car may offer $15K less, down to $60 and if accepted he/she will think they got a great deal when the true market is $10-12 less as they may find out when it comes time to sell.

2) I was also looking for a Pagoda, the market for nice private sale cars seem to be in the mid-high 30's to low $40's. The same cars are listed for $10K+++ more from dealers. These are good usable as is cars that you can drive today and do a rolling restoration. They are not perfect but look good from 10 feet away. I just bought a 230 no rust, no accident with a manual in that price range. I will do the "Gerry Mandated" $5K worth of deferred maintenance. Most parts are not expensive and readily available. Compared to 036's they are very simple. The most expensive maintenance item is the injection pump which for $6-800 you can send it out to the best guy in the country for a complete rebuild. Pretty much the same as a rebuilt ETA from Beckman and half the price of a 6 cylinder wire harness.

Most dealers will tack on $10-20K minimum and hope for the 1 sucker/buyer who will pay. The cost of money being what it is allows them to sit on the car for a while.

For their profit they do a complete detail as well as install several gallons of Armor-All pretty much everywhere and provide paper carpet overlays with smiley faces. Little else. There are exceptions of course.
What they DO offer is access to capital, they can say "yes" to sale due to their line of credit (floor planning) faster than most. They don't have to "think about it," "ask the wife", "see the bank" or whatever. That is attractive to the seller who just wants the car sold in most cases.
If you check Auto Trader and Mobile.de most cars are offered by dealers. It cost very little to list a car and eBay charges only $200 when the car is sold. That, as well as money being available for 2-3% or so, makes anyone who has a computer and a subscription to Hemmings a "Dealer" in this day and age.

Whenever I am looking for a car I always make a list of what I want and call various dealers saying I have one to sell with that spec; it was my fathers, I'm handling an estate or whatever BS comes to my mind at the moment (I'm in the Serial Lying business so it comes easy - too easy....). You would be shocked to see how much is offered compared to what they ask on their websites.

One dealer said the price on a car I was looking at will double by spring !!! I offered to pay him in stock that will TRIPLE by spring !!! For some strange reason he declined, showing apparently that he was not an astute businessman....

I have no objection to people making money, even fast money, but that doesn't mean I have to pay it.
Rant Over.
Kind Regards,

Ron

 

[alabbasi]

I don't know how dealers make money. I'd starve to death if I had to live on selling my cars. It's a really horrible business.

 

[600Eric]

Great post Ron. I used to love to play "the game" with dealers. However as I got a bit older and more responsibility (wife and kids) and headaches (work and life in general) came into my life my perspective has changed 180 degrees. Whereas once it was almost like a sport for me now I just look at it as a pain in the a$$.

 

[maw1124]

These days I wonder if they even have a subscription to Hemmings. Seems like "useless" overhead. Why bother to be an informed seller when they can just jack up the price and wait on the mis- or un- informed buyer? With rare affinity cars (your Conti-T, these 500Es), they're unicorns anyway so the uninitiated buyer is almost all of them. That's why I so love this site.

You raise a good point though: the cost of money will rise as the price of oil falls. The days of the Bush era Fed devaluing the dollar (to camouflage the true cost of war -- massive exports) are over. And what comes next for these inventory heavy "dealers" will not be pretty.

Have your checkbook ready. I'll race you to that pre-split Mulliner. Great post.

Cheers,

maw

 

[gerryvz]

I have never bought a car from these so-called "dealer" types and I don't know why anyone would.

My modus operandi when it comes to buying cars? I have tended to very closely & personally cultivate a very small group of MB specialists around the country (typically well-connected individuals who deal primarily in MBs). These people know me well, know what I like and don't like, and know what cars I am looking for. They remember this for years. And they give me a heads up when a car crosses their path that they know fits my short list of what I want.

A good example is my G-wagen. I had let my network know probably 5-6 years ago that I was looking for a pre-M113 G-wagen, either an M103, M117 or M104 model. And I got the heads up a year ago that one finally entered the picture. I checked it out, and bought it right away, deal done.

The folks in my network know that I know the market, and they know that I'm not going to overpay for a car. At the same time, they know me well enough to know that I'm happy to give them some money too. In the case of my G-wagen, I bought it for the same price that my friend did. He actually lost money on it because he fixed a few things before selling it to me, and paid for those parts himself. I saw the sales invoice to him, so I know what the final sale price to him was. It was the same that I paid.

My 560SEL that I sold last year? I paid the seller a couple thousand more than I know he got the car for. And that was fine, because he needed to make a bit of money, and I knew the car was an honest car with a good heritage and $12K worth of work the previous owner had done, with receipts. Then I put a BUNCH more money and time into that car to fix things that needed fixing on it (nothing serious, just small things I didn't like).

I still have a few cars out there on my "bucket list" that is socialized with my network. Closing in on a couple of them now - a second 500E and a 1995 E320 cabriolet (though I'm vacillating a bit on a CLK55 AMG convertible). A pristine C63 AMG is on the horizon for me, not immediately.

So, I guess I've never had to deal with these "flipper" bro-juice dealers. I deal ONLY with my network. I trust them, they trust me, cars and money change hands at the appropriate points in time, and everyone's happy.

The last thing I want to do is waste my time and money supporting bro-juice dealers. I much prefer my "network" approach whereby folks are looking out for me, and they get my business when the right thing pops up.

Win-win for me and my network friends. Lose-lose for the bro-juice dealers, at least for getting MY business.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Trae]

E55 (211) did not make your list?

 

[gerryvz]

E55 (211) did not make your list?

Nope ... no 210s or 211s for me. Too big.

 

[maw1124]

I'm somewhere between GVZ's method and private sellers only. Basically, I'm only looking to deal with someone of a certain ilk -- more or less on my level of care and integrity when it comes to the car. They don't have to be in my network -- part of what I love is connecting with new high quality people through the process. But I agree that these days life is too short (and my time too valuable) for BS, and that includes people who are only in it to make a buck or two (or a few grand, same difference). "Return on invested headache" is a metric that gets more and more use from me, and car flippers just don't make that cut as a general rule. Give me the well heeled, knowledgeable car collector -- in or out of network -- and things like price take care of themselves.

maw

 

[alabbasi]

I'm not a dealer but I have sold a few of cars over the last 5 years while refreshing the toy collection. The problem with owning some interesting cars (and I'm sure any of you 500E owners have experienced this) is that there are a lot of people out that will waste your time without any intention of buying. I think of them as the 8.9% of the population that are unemployed and have nothing better to do then to burn up my time asking questions, requesting millions of pictures or trying to beat me down on price when they don't have the money to buy.

It can get infuriating at times, such as when one idiot test drove my car for almost an hour, then told me that he just bought a project and wanted to see what a nice one drove like before he started working on it.

It's a game for a lot of people but after 10, 15, 20 calls, it can get tedious for the seller so I no longer respond to requests for more pictures or offers to negotiate over the phone or Email.

If you're seriously looking, I suggest the following:

1) If you have the money and are ready to buy, show up in person with cash so that the seller knows that you're ready to do a deal. No one with experience will take you seriously if you're talking money without seeing the car.
2) If you're buying from a dealer, don't expect to pay what he paid as he's trying to make a living. It's expected that he needs to cover his overhead and make money.
3) If you're calling after a $25k car but only willing to pay $15k, you're probably wasting the sellers time and yours.
4) If you're thinking about flipping cars, go for Japanese economy cars or pickup trucks. There's no money in 20 year old Mercedes.

 

[Maui]

I've considered the E55 but all I ever see for sale have tons of miles and have been abused.

I am happy to report that my wife came up to me tonight and thanked me for the E550. She had reservations about the mpg, and rightfully so, but tonight in her words, "Thank you for allowing me to drive your wonderful car." I replied, "It's a beautiful piece of mechanical art", and she agreed. The car is incredibly quick for such a big car. I am surprised by the power every time I drive it.

 

[DerFuror]

If you're seriously looking, I suggest the following:

1) If you have the money and are ready to buy, show up in person with cash so that the seller knows that you're ready to do a deal. No one with experience will take you seriously if you're talking money without seeing the car.
2) If you're buying from a dealer, don't expect to pay what he paid as he's trying to make a living. It's expected that he needs to cover his overhead and make money.
3) If you're calling after a $25k car but only willing to pay $15k, you're probably wasting the sellers time and yours.
4) If you're thinking about flipping cars, go for Japanese economy cars or pickup trucks. There's no money in 20 year old Mercedes.

Well said, but there may be a potential $8500 to be made on an E500E.

Pay attention to the flipside of these statements as a Seller...tell them (the alleged "Buyer") to "step off" if they can't "step up". Your time is valuable.

The sense of smell matures as One matures. Listen to your inner self. You can smell (or tell) a "Stinker" when you see/hear them.

Act accordingly.

 

[gsxr]

For their profit they do a complete detail as well as install several gallons of Armor-All pretty much everywhere and provide paper carpet overlays with smiley faces. Little else. There are exceptions of course.

That is my primary issue with flippers. They seem to have a 50-100% markup (or worse), there is nothing done to increase the car's value besides the detail job. There are exceptions of course.

I have no objection to people making money, even fast money, but that doesn't mean I have to pay it.

Exactly. I posted a rant on MBWorld last year regarding a W211 E55 wagon flipper, where a car or two was documented for sale by private owner for (IIRC) mid-20's, then it reappeared soon afterwards at a dealer for $40k. Multiple replies to that thread basically said "what's your problem with people making money?".

Why bother to be an informed seller when they can just jack up the price and wait on the mis- or un- informed buyer? With rare affinity cars (your Conti-T, these 500Es), they're unicorns anyway so the uninitiated buyer is almost all of them.

I think that's what bugs me... flippers are basically taking advantage of people, mis-informed or otherwise. Again, there are exceptions.


What I don't have an issue with is someone buying a fixer-upper car (granted, this can have a wide definition), performing repairs/upgrades, and re-selling for a profit with clearly documented value-add. I.e., selling a premium product at a premium price. This doesn't seem to happen very often... more likely a lemon/turd/lipsticked-pig at a premium price. I believe documenting a car's prior sale history (as on this forum classifieds) at least makes it more difficult for the non-value-add flippers, since anyone who can figure out how to Google a VIN should be able to find what the asking price was for a given car (and approximate condition) before the flipper obtained it -- and then make an educated decision if they're willing to pay the flipper's premium, or look elsewhere.


In a nutshell... I have no issue with people making money if they work for it. Just rubs me the wrong way when they seem to want to make money for doing essentially nothing besides brokering a transaction between prior owner and future owner for what appears to be a very steep "finder's fee". Maybe I'm just jealous that I'm not able to do the same thing and make a living at it...

 

[alabbasi]

Exactly. I posted a rant on MBWorld last year regarding a W211 E55 wagon flipper, where a car or two was documented for sale by private owner for (IIRC) mid-20's, then it reappeared soon afterwards at a dealer for $40k. Multiple replies to that thread basically said "what's your problem with people making money?".

I kind of agree with the replies on MB World. We're all capitalists in the end, and a sale is a transaction between a buyer, a seller and nobody else. I see many forum rants about pricing and they're as annoying as the "what my car worth" posts. Most of these posts are not constructive and do nothing but serve to blow up a sale, with most vocal voices usually coming from people who have no interest in buying.

Putting it politely, it's bad sport. You wouldn't run into a car dealership and pull a customer away from a salesman to tell them that they could buy the same car somewhere else for less would you? Different people want different things. Some will only buy from a private owner, while others will only buy from a dealer because they'd rather pay the premium for the peace of mind. While I may not agree with a price (and honestly I don't agree with the price of many 500e's) It does not pay to put a price on other peoples stuff.

I do believe that a major contributor to the rising prices of these cars is this site given that it tracks every 500E changing hands. This is a double edge sword as people will visit this site to determine value. When they find that a rough 350k mile car sold at a salvage auction for $7k, It's not unreasonable for them to assume that they'll find a buyer who will pay $25k for their clean white low mileage car.

Dealers will correct their pricing quickly if they're off as they don't want to have money tied up in non moving inventory so you can always play the waiting game if you think that they're wrong.

 

[sheward]

I wanted to post some thoughts playing devils advocate for the dealers based on countless hours spent at my brothers dealership. Many of them have been covered, but i'll bloviate anyway. Any job that deals with the general public can be trying. Like more and more areas of commerce the auto business is full of it's share of scam artists and I too have a special hate of people who want to make money without any effort. We here are critical because we are enthusiasts. Keep in mind the insurance, security, storage, transportation, cleaning and repair costs, high rent, the dealing with dishonest wholesalers, enthusiast storytellers and the scores of tire kickers. It's not easy. Also keep in mind sellers need to initiate pricing high. Some folks will pay it and it would be foolish not to accept it. Nearly all will negotiate. None of them have time to learn the intricacies of every model they sell (excepting the single marque dealers). In the end, a sale is consummated between seller and buyer based on individual wants, and they can be quite variable. Use your enthusiasts knowledge and the great resources here to strike a deal you can be happy with. Personally, I prefer to buy from individuals who have none of the costs mentioned above. Used car dealers are middlemen. There is a large market of people who depend on and appreciate an HONEST dealers services due to time, fear, and even pleasure. They are usually, but not always, non- enthusiasts.

drew

 

[bing]

Flipping cars/Flipper... never heard this term before till I started hanging out here. I understand (I think) what you guys are referring to though, but to us here in Europe, or at least in the UK, they are Used Car Dealers. Ok they will vary from from a shabby looking lot next to tire place to a shiny show room who offers you a cappuccino while you're trying to outsmart one another, but in essence both flip cars for a living or the business is just that. Both will apply tire shine all over, shampoo the interior and spend as little as they can on the car. Of course there are places that have their own shop in the back that will service the car, do all kinds of 50point checks and then even give you a warranty. This is fine because basic things in life like customer care goes a long way, albeit at cost.

I think we all understand who and what we are dealing with when it comes to Used car dealers, and aside from the possibility of dishonesty, they're out to make money. It's just a question of whether the particular car warrants that margin. Due diligence, 1 of 1 model in the world and because you're dying to own one will probably help make that decision.

 

[gerryvz]

A "flipper" (at least in the case of this forum) can either be a dealer or an enterprising individual.

But the fundamental is the same: they buy it (either for a low, decent or high price), add a wash, wax and bro-juice, and then mark it up anywhere from 25-100% of what they paid for it.

No repairs or improvements done to the car - just a quick re-sale based on the car's physical presentation and the seller's belief they can get an exhorbitant price for it.

I have to agree 100% with GSXR that these "flippers" who add no value irritate me to no end. But then again, to alabbasi's point, we live in a capitalist society in the US and everyone is entitled to any legal means to make a buck, and if that means reselling (or trying to resell) cars for a fat profit, then so be it.

I too prefer to see someone, ANYONE, who owns a car sell it in better [mechanical and cosmetic] condition than they bought it in. But some folks as said just want to put in as little as possible and get out as much as possible. I'm sure that the flippers hit the jackpot on certain occasions and probably do make a 50%+ profit, and this helps tide them over on the cars where they don't make much at all.

There is no clear right and wrong here, just philosophical differences of opinion. We're all enthusiasts, so we pay attention to these things. But to most flippers/used car dealers, it's just a business transaction. They don't know much about "our" cars and they don't want to know much about "our" cars. They just want to acquire inventory, shine it up for a quick sale, and get it moved as quickly as possible so they can get the next car in, bro-shined up and out.

It's the nature of the beast. Many of us choose not to deal with these guys; others do and that's fine. As long as everyone feels like they're getting a good deal, then everyone should be happy, bottom line.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[alabbasi]

But to most flippers/used car dealers, it's just a business transaction. They don't know much about "our" cars and they don't want to know much about "our" cars. They just want to acquire inventory, shine it up for a quick sale, and get it moved as quickly as possible so they can get the next car in, bro-shined up and out.

We're lucky that we have jobs that allow us to fix cars up in our spare time and have fun with them. We never factor in our time as labor so rarely is our profit really profit. If I had to do it for a living, I would not touch a project car with a 50ft barge pole.

Has anyone seen the Wheeler Dealer TV show from the UK? If you haven't seen it, it's about two blokes that buy a cheap cars to fix up and sell. Every episode has the little fat bloke running up and down the country looking for parts, while the tall skinny guy fixes the car up. After about a month, they put the car up for sale and act well chuffed that they made £500 profit between them.

Split down the middle, that's about £62.50 a week each. All I can say for those boys is that it's a good thing that Britain has a such a generous welfare system.

Lastly, what is bro-juice and will it help me sell that frigging E-type?

 

[gerryvz]

Lastly, what is bro-juice and will it help me sell that frigging E-type?

The "bro-juice" meme started in my PWNER thread, with the following post.

Nope, I have a new one (expansion tank) as well. That's a draw

And the Colonel is correct. Overflow tank is inside the fender/liner.

Well there's some sort of "bro" shine on there. The reflection from the flash hurts my eyes.

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79&p=92991&viewfull=1#post92991

Has anyone seen the Wheeler Dealer TV show from the UK? If you haven't seen it, it's about two blokes that buy a cheap cars to fix up and sell. Every episode has the little fat bloke running up and down the country looking for parts, while the tall skinny guy fixes the car up. After about a month, they put the car up for sale and act well chuffed that they made £500 profit between them.

I've seen that show, it's not too bad in a campy sort of way. But at least they're improving the cars they get. They're just not getting much of a return on their efforts.

Sort of a micro-scale "Pimp My Ride" ....

 

[Melville]

My views on flippers depends on the context. If someone makes a profession out of finding rare, valuable and highly collectible cars and bringing them to the market, that person is doing a service for collectors. This is a person who hunts down cars that would otherwise be hidden away, or takes a car and brings it to a condition that will command a premium. Or a dealer who focuses on interesting older, interesting cars and gives them a wide audience so they can find an appreciative audience at a reasonable markup that reflects the work a dealer has put in over years to build credibility and a good reputation.

However, for cars like the E500E, things are a little different. The E500E is on the cusp of changing into a different kind of car. Or rather, the owner demographic is on the cusp of changing into a different kind of group. I was drawn to this car because it was, in a sense, an undiscovered treasure. A relatively small number of true enthusiasts loved this car, and they really really loved it. These were people who knew they could get a great car for not a lot of money, and through their dedication they could keep it in the condition it was meant to be in. And in that condition, the car would still be one of the best cars on the road more than 20 years after it was built.

Now that the model has started to gain attention, flippers have realized they can make a quick profit on these cars. They are selling these cars for prices that interest car "collectors" rather than car "enthusiasts". The car is (perhaps) attracting people who like to collect desirable cars. They like to "own" them. Many people who want to maintain their cars and drive them are getting priced out of the market. These cars will reach a price level where their owners won't look to sites like this to find out how to fix a front seat arm rest. They will either pay someone to fix it, or never really spend the time with the car to know that something is wrong. There's nothing wrong with people like this. Anyone who loves cars, and puts his (or her) time and money behind that dedication is ok in my books, but that's a different kind of person than the current E500E demographic.

Flippers aren't the cause of this change. They may not even be a major factor. But for each car that a flipper finds for less than $15K and then turns around to sell for more than $25K, there will be the potential for one less owner that knows every nut and bolt of his car -- or at least wants to learn about every nut an bolt. If this continues, each year more and more cars will change hands from enthusiasts to collectors. These cars will have a place in a nice garage. Maybe next to an air cooled 911. And the engine mounts will be shot and the owner won't even know.

[silently sheds a tear]

Of course, maybe this is all because I feel like I may have missed the boat and in waiting too long to get a E500E I have been priced out of the market.

 

[alabbasi]

Now that the model has started to gain attention, flippers have realized they can make a quick profit on these cars. They are selling these cars for prices that interest car "collectors" rather than car "enthusiasts". The car is (perhaps) attracting people who like to collect desirable cars.

What you describe is 'investors' entering the market which typically creates a bubble that will eventually burst when the investors realize that they're not going to make as much money as they thought and start dumping the cars.
It seems to happen to E-type Jaguars every decade where $30k cars suddenly go up to $130k over a period of a few years and then crash back down again.

The two most under valued MB's in my opinion are the R129 and the W126. Fantastic cars but only seem to be worth what they weigh on the scales.

 

[maw1124]

I think Wheeler Dealers (which I've been watching for at least 4 years) has glamorized the whole car flipping thing. I'll be honest, watching it made me want to do a car project, and this 500E was it. All the American "me too" versions took their lead from Wheeler Dealers (graveyard cars, etc).

Of course, Edd China makes that whole model work. On TV, Edd is free -- in real life, Edd is $80 to $120 an hour and not nearly as gifted (unless you're lucky enough to have a 500eboard). So people end up under water on a project that "shoulda" been simple.

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Yes, Al is correct. Investors/collectors are very different than the classic "flippers" we've been talking about. Flippers are all about the short term.

Investors/collectors are all about conquest ("I owned one of those") and grabbing cars that are on the way up in the bubble with the intention of unloading them after they make a buck. That may be a year or three, or 10 years. And IMHO there is some knowledge and passion that most investor/collectors have about the cars they buy.

But that's different from a flipper. Flippers are all about money and cold, hard, business.

I have no doubt that the R129 will be a classic and will appreciate. It's going to take a while, though. ALL MB convertibles/roadsters have appreciated in the past, so there's no doubt that the 129 will follow in their footsteps. There are going to be A LOT of 129s that fall by the wayside in the future, though. I think now to the next 7-10 years are going to be the very best time to buy R129s, as they are just beginning to enter their "market bottom" and will stay in this purgatory for some time. And then, they will slowly, inevitably rise.

The W126 (sedans) are just never going to appreciate too much, except for the nicer examples. A 560SEL will never be a 6.3 or a 6.9, unfortunately.

A 560SEC, being a coupe, of arguably some of the finest design MB has ever done, is definitely destined to be a classic. Just look at the 111/112 coupes going up now, and you see what the SEC will be doing in about 15-20 years.

The E500E is a very different animal and will follow a very different track than the classic MB coupe/convertible curve. As I've said before, and will say again, the E500E will follow the curve that has been established by the 300SEL 6.3, and in the future the 450SEL 6.9.

BTW, I am starting to see nice 6.9s hitting the USD $50-60,000 mark. Pristine 6.3s are hitting the $80K mark and even kissing $100K.

If you hang on to your E500E long enough, and preserve it well enough, and are keeping it as a collector/investor, then eventually you will also see some nice appreciation. With my car, now at 129K miles, it will never be a condition 1 car, but it will remain well-fettled and preserved, yet I will have one heck of a lot more driving pleasure than any Condition 1 E500E owner will ever see in theirs !!!

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[alabbasi]

From what I see at the auctions, R129's are already starting to climb up. I'm not sure what the SEC market is doing. The last SEC I sold was an 89 black/black car. Nice shape aside from a dent in the door and near perfect leather. Only managed to get ~ $2k and I had to work for it. I still have a Euro 560SEC which I don't think I will ever sell, not even to fund a CL600 purchase.

SEL's are worthless and will be for some time because they made millions of them. It pains me that this is the case and is why I never fixed my white SEL after the flex disc failed. It was easier and more profitable to just part it even though I had multiples of everything that I needed to fix it. I ended up using a lot of parts for my SEC and selling the engine to a fellow with an SL that jumped time.

Shortly after, I parted out this SEC which I bought back from a fellow I sold it to after he had overheated the engine. After the aggro I got with selling the black 89, it just seemed easier to part it.

I truly love the W126 and everyone should own a 560 (Sedan or Coupe). They're such a delight to drive and you'll feel like a millionaire in one.

​

 

[sheward]

My views on flippers depends on the context. If someone makes a profession out of finding rare, valuable and highly collectible cars and bringing them to the market, that person is doing a service for collectors. This is a person who hunts down cars that would otherwise be hidden away, or takes a car and brings it to a condition that will command a premium. Or a dealer who focuses on interesting older, interesting cars and gives them a wide audience so they can find an appreciative audience at a reasonable markup that reflects the work a dealer has put in over years to build credibility and a good reputation.

However, for cars like the E500E, things are a little different. The E500E is on the cusp of changing into a different kind of car. Or rather, the owner demographic is on the cusp of changing into a different kind of group. I was drawn to this car because it was, in a sense, an undiscovered treasure. A relatively small number of true enthusiasts loved this car, and they really really loved it. These were people who knew they could get a great car for not a lot of money, and through their dedication they could keep it in the condition it was meant to be in. And in that condition, the car would still be one of the best cars on the road more than 20 years after it was built.

Now that the model has started to gain attention, flippers have realized they can make a quick profit on these cars. They are selling these cars for prices that interest car "collectors" rather than car "enthusiasts". The car is (perhaps) attracting people who like to collect desirable cars. They like to "own" them. Many people who want to maintain their cars and drive them are getting priced out of the market. These cars will reach a price level where their owners won't look to sites like this to find out how to fix a front seat arm rest. They will either pay someone to fix it, or never really spend the time with the car to know that something is wrong. There's nothing wrong with people like this. Anyone who loves cars, and puts his (or her) time and money behind that dedication is ok in my books, but that's a different kind of person than the current E500E demographic.

Flippers aren't the cause of this change. They may not even be a major factor. But for each car that a flipper finds for less than $15K and then turns around to sell for more than $25K, there will be the potential for one less owner that knows every nut and bolt of his car -- or at least wants to learn about every nut an bolt. If this continues, each year more and more cars will change hands from enthusiasts to collectors. These cars will have a place in a nice garage. Maybe next to an air cooled 911. And the engine mounts will be shot and the owner won't even know.

[silently sheds a tear]

Of course, maybe this is all because I feel like I may have missed the boat and in waiting too long to get a E500E I have been priced out of the market.

I strongly agree to your thoughts. I don't think you've waited to long though. To own one-yes! but not to buy one.

drew

 

[Maui]

So many cars I would love to own.

 

[600Eric]

I think Wheeler Dealers (which I've been watching for at least 4 years) has glamorized the whole car flipping thing. I'll be honest, watching it made me want to do a car project, and this 500E was it. All the American "me too" versions took their lead from Wheeler Dealers (graveyard cars, etc).

Of course, Edd China makes that whole model work. On TV, Edd is free -- in real life, Edd is $80 to $120 an hour and not nearly as gifted (unless you're lucky enough to have a 500eboard). So people end up under water on a project that "shoulda" been simple.

maw

LOL. I don't mean to highjack this thread but I love Wheeler Dealers. There is no doubt that an overwhelming majority of the cars Mike Brewer buys are just tired rust buckets but Edd China is a very sharp guy. However as you have pointed out Maw if they ever factored the cost of Edd's time into their projects they would almost always come out in the red. Regardless I just find it an entertaining show to watch and have done so for years. Now for my all time favorite, West Cost Customs (which was morphed into from Pimp My Ride) . If you ever wanted to see a perfect example of income redistribution at work (without the aid of the government) you just need to tune into that show and watch one of the latest rappers, pop stars, professional athletes, etc. that has more money than brains give them a perfectly good car to ruin. To me it is equally funny and painful to watch which intern makes for great entertainment.