M119: Non-CAT Engine block? or low compression version ?

[195910]

Hi Everyone,

Looking at a late W140 S500 with no Emissions systems from factory. Strangely the pistons and crankshaft have different part numbers than the Cat-equipped versions.
Its not stated as a Low-Compression version, just as a non-cat version.

Has anyone seen these pistons and crankshaft version and can confirm if a low-compression M119-ME version existed or not?

Block: A1190101205 - Expected as the pistons are included in the block, there are "Blind flanges" for the omitted emission system parts.
Crankshaft: A1190301901
Pistons: A1190306517 (Piston rings: A0020302724)

Thanks in advance

 

[195910]

Update:

- Crankshaft 1901 is the same crank in the M119.974 !
- No Sparkplugs are shown as "not used on low compression"

I think this is a 10:1 ratio compression compared to 11:1 on some of the M119.98X engines.

If someone has a 1996-1998 W/C140 or 1996-1998 R129 to compare the crank and pistons part numbers.

 

[gsxr]

Most / all of the standard M119.98x engines are 11:1 compression for both 4.2L and 5.0L displacement.
I believe all AMG 6.0L M119.98x engines are 10:1 compression only? Some aftermarket tuners offered 11:1 compression.

Standard 5.0L & 6.0L M119.970/.972/.974 were 10:1 compression.
Standard 4.2L M119.971/.975 were originally 10:1 compression through 1992 USA model year (approx May 1992 production)
Standard 4.2L M119.971/.975 increased to 11:1 for 1993 USA model year (approx June 1992 production)

Pistons are visibly different between 10:1 and 11:1 but I thought the crankshafts were the same.
The cranks did change mid-production with different bearing widths somewhere in late 1993, I think?

 

[195910]

@gsxr Thank you for the input Dave. I checked the part numbers on a 04/1998 production US-Spec S500. Pistons and Crankshaft numbers are the same as EU spec.

90% sure now its a 10:1 "low compression" version, will confirm when I see the compression code on the block.

But why a lower compression ?! No option codes for low compression, just ""elimination of emission system"

 

[weide1]

@195910

On instagram you find mb140_school. He owns BR140 models with M120 and M119, both non-cat / low compression.
Here he shows info about his M120. Where he explains the non-cat and low compression codes.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

He also owns this one. VIN WDB1400701A178277

Mercedes VIN Decoder | Decode Your Mercedes-Benz VIN

Datacard for 1993 Mercedes-Benz S500C (140.070) - WDB1400701A178277

www.lastvin.com

He wrote the article about the AMG Japan BR140 models last year. Which i posted in the SL72 thread.

 

[195910]

Thank you very much @weide1 . I just checked the part numbers on a 1993 produced W140 M120, and Yes his assumption is correct as the car has the "elimination of emission system" without a code for low compression, yet the pistons are the low compression version!

Gentlemen we learn something new every day! A low compression version of the M119/M120 do exist even in the late production years. These engines can run with low quality fuel such as standard unleaded, other benefits is being very robust!

The Power reduction is about 6-7HP compared to the standard version, however it is not stated if these figures are based on the same fuel or lower quality fuel.

 

[gsxr]

Interesting that MB only de-rates by 5kw (~7hp) for 2 points of compression change (11 --> 9).

The general rule of thumb is 3% power gain per 1 point of compression, which is roughly double what MB claims. Hmmm. I wonder if there were other changes to the low compression engines to help make up the power loss?

 

[195910]

Interesting that MB only de-rates by 5kw (~7hp) for 2 points of compression change (11 --> 9).

The general rule of thumb is 3% power gain per 1 point of compression, which is roughly double what MB claims. Hmmm. I wonder if there were other changes to the low compression engines to help make up the power loss?

Take into consideration the catalytic converters on the high compression version and the WOT reduction on the post-1993 M119/M120.

Actual power difference could be around 15-18HP. :/

 

[gsxr]

Actual power difference could be around 15-18HP. :/

Years ago I did some informal dragstrip testing on an M119 with/without catalysts and found pretty much zero power gain with the cats removed. If there is any gain, it's gotta be low single digits.

Might be a bit more different with a 6L engine, but overall, the 034/036 factory exhaust is just not very restrictive, even with the catalysts. They are pretty large cats (cross-section) which may explain why there's so little power change.

 

[weide1]

will confirm when I see the compression code on the block.

Can we expect you to post the image?

 

[195910]

Can we expect you to post the image?

Absolutely, but unfortunately this car is sold!
I will post more info if I find another one, although an under-powered version is not really a sought after feature.

 

[195910]

On this topic, why is the 6L M119-ME block a 10:0 while the 5L M119 an 11:0 ?

I just reviewed a 1998 SL60 AMG with a matching number engine block.

 

[Markus-MD]

In my rembering. the Development was to erliery .The Normal 5,0 Piston in LH and KE Engines are "Flat" and have 10:1.The ME Engines have an Trough in the middle of the Piston.But not deep rather over the Bottom.and over this the make this comp ratio 11:1.The Design is tricky too manufactured.And the End of the M119 was near.The M113 was into to Launch .
And i think the 6,0 Piston was Forged but not shure.And for this litel circel of Engines was the cost to expensive.
The Major point is also you have no Gab too the M120 V12 Engine has with ME 394Ps and the M119 6,0 has maybe381/374. When this fitted with 11:1 can climb over 400Ps .so Kings Throne goes to .....No Advantage for the M120 6,0.
Marketing and Busines Administration make the Rules

 

[195910]

In my rembering. the Development was to erliery .The Normal 5,0 Piston in LH and KE Engines are "Flat" and have 10:1.The ME Engines have an Trough in the middle of the Piston.But not deep rather over the Bottom.and over this the make this comp ratio 11:1.The Design is tricky too manufactured.And the End of the M119 was near.The M113 was into to Launch .
And i think the 6,0 Piston was Forged but not shure.And for this litel circel of Engines was the cost to expensive.
The Major point is also you have no Gab too the M120 V12 Engine has with ME 394Ps and the M119 6,0 has maybe381/374. When this fitted with 11:1 can climb over 400Ps .so Kings Throne goes to .....No Advantage for the M120 6,0.
Marketing and Busines Administration make the Rules

6.0 AMG pistons were cast, BRABUS pistons are Forged.

Do you think the 11:0 was possible on the ME M119 6.0 ? Could have been a relatively easier upgrade on the M119, but then BB or other tuners would have changed the compression as well.

 

[gsxr]

6.0 AMG pistons were cast, BRABUS pistons are Forged.

Do you think the 11:0 was possible on the ME M119 6.0 ? Could have been a relatively easier upgrade on the M119, but then BB or other tuners would have changed the compression as well.

I believe Brabus brochures showed an 11:1 option for ME M119 6.0L (but not LH). EDIT: Click here to view brochure.

I have a feeling the potential power gains (+10hp, maybe) might not have been worth the potential risks from detonation.

 

[Markus-MD]

Yes i agree GSXR.The risk for 10-15ps more nope.And the cost for the new design.no no.i think the 11:1 was also for Govermert Exaust rules. was not make for us to take a fun ride.

 

[Markus-MD]

Look here 5,0 LH right side ME 5,0 Piston

 

[195910]

Look here 5,0 LH right side ME 5,0 Piston

Thank you Markus,

Anyone had issues with the M119-ME ? It seems the block of the LH version was more robust; unless the ME was had better knock/detonation management. I highly doubt that given the M113 and M273 switched back to the more conventional piston design.

 

[Markus-MD]

Here an pic from my only one E60 Piston .See the Differenz all things are other.And this are only Euro spec.

 

[195910]

Here an pic from my only one E60 Piston .See the Differenz all things are other.And this are only Euro spec.

Is this a M119-ME 6L piston ? Looks like 10:0 compression

 

[Markus-MD]

All 6,0 has 10:1 .Never heard or seen a 11:1 . And i wrote thi searlier.Why amg will make new Design for the Pistion when the M113 stands in the Pit??Make no sense.Also i belive and think all 6,0 are the same

 

[195910]

All 6,0 has 10:1 .Never heard or seen a 11:1 . And i wrote thi searlier.Why amg will make new Design for the Pistion when the M113 stands in the Pit??Make no sense.Also i belive and think all 6,0 are the same

I just confirmed on the 1998 SL60. Compression ratio is 10:0. This confirms the M119 AMG variants all had 10:0 Compression.

 

[weide1]

I found these.

 

[WDB748372]

I was going to say I've seen an 11:1 compression ratio on a few W210 E60. Beyond the two above there's a third one I had (from BaT Canada auction).

 

[195910]

@weide1 @WDB748372
Gentlemen both engine blocks you posted appear to be post-production conversions. The car I am referencing is a matching number factory SL60 AMG. No AMG Stamps are present.

 

[Markus-MD]

Right 195910 .I think that are W210 E50 Blocks.This engines has an "New Circel of Numbers To the Engine" .and all begings with999......
.I think this pics are show later modified to 6,0. and thats all.
Why not Change the stamp? Engine numb are the same.Only to change the Ratio. .Th owner Know what he has .But for us it is a Miracel. .
You must have an 6 mm Stamp to mod this .and after this looks bad.But with Amg >Stamp looks a the holy Grail.
with 11:1 looks more valuable.

 

[weide1]

@weide1 @WDB748372
Gentlemen both engine blocks you posted appear to be post-production conversions. The car I am referencing is a matching number factory SL60 AMG. No AMG Stamps are present.

This is breaking news for me. Does this mean AMG engines without AMG stamping exist?

Brings this E36 in a complete new light to me. See #13.
I have Fahrzeugbrief and Dekra documents. They indeed confirm 3606 cm³ and 200 kW.

S124 E36 T AMG with five !! speed automatic transmission, €40k | W124 AMG & Tuner Cars

https://www.500e.nl/autos/mercedes-benz-e320t-amg-w124/ I wonder why it has the 5-speed automatic transmission. Afaik it only came with the 4-speed 722.3. As shown in the January 1993 Einführungsschrift. DESCRIPTION MERCEDES-BENZ E 36 AMG KOMBI Fairly unique E 36 AMG Kombi with ex-factory AMG...

www.500eboard.co

 

[gsxr]

This is breaking news for me. Does this mean AMG engines without AMG stamping exist?

Brings this E36 in a complete new light to me. See #13.
I have Fahrzeugbrief and Dekra documents. They indeed confirm 3606 cm³ and 200 kW.

No code 957, so the E36 wagon was a post-delivery conversion, if it's really a 3.6L in the first place. Would be interesting to measure stroke on that engine.

I have a hard time believing AMG would build any engine without adding the AMG stamps to the block somewhere. After finding the old photos from 2017 (see post #11 in that thread) it looks like this alleged "E36" is highly suspicious. Yes, it is an E320 wagon with full factory Sportline package, but probably no AMG conversion.

 

[Markus-MD]

No and yes .With the E50 Engine are ident with the numbers circle(999....). No Amg on the Block,why it is an normal 500er block from this time.
But on the oposite of the Heads are stamped with an amg Signet. And this is the only what amg maked. no big valves normal things.Little bit inlet porting with a "Dremel" Amg Cameshaft and and Inlet Mainifold with also AMG stamped.And sure an ME Motronic with Modifing something.
not more.In my Mind the most Overrated AMG Engine every time.Not sure that this Produktion Engine climbs to 347PS.
The car lives from the 3,06 Diff and little quiker Shift from The Gearbox ecu

 

[gsxr]

not more.In my Mind the most Overrated AMG Engine every time.Not sure that this Produktion Engine climbs to 347PS [342hp].

The 1993-up standard 5.0L engines (rated 315hp) measure roughly 322-325hp with WOT enrichment from an early LH module.

The claimed 342hp from the E50 (+20hp, approximately) seems reasonable from higher compression combined with AMG camshafts and mild porting, assuming the ME 1.0 was modified to also provide WOT enrichment.

OTOH, this also shows that big gains from big camshafts are unlikely, and might be why there were no magic camshafts available for the M119?

 

[Markus-MD]

yes Sir And The Amg Camshafts for ME-Engines have less Hub als the LH Models.Also not Magic Cams .And the porting to E50 is a Joke realy .
But is AMG -All My Good Money

 

[weide1]

I have a hard time believing AMG would build any engine without adding the AMG stamps to the block somewhere.

+1. But maybe @195910 can show a bit more of the 1998 SL60 without AMG Stamps.

And about this image. It belongs to a 1997 W210 E60 AMG. Owner claims it to be one of three E63. I contacted him a while ago. And asked him why he knew this. Because of the 11:1 compression ratio he replied.
As stated halfway this article. https://www.tijd.be/sabato/auto/34-auto-s-in-4-jaar-achter-de-poort-bij-chris-dooms/10137161.html

 

[gsxr]

+1. But maybe @195910 can show a bit more of the 1998 SL60 without AMG Stamps.

And about this image. It belongs to a 1997 W210 E60 AMG. Owner claims it to be one of three E63. I contacted him a while ago. And asked him why he knew this. Because of the 11:1 compression ratio he replied.
As stated halfway this article. https://www.tijd.be/sabato/auto/34-auto-s-in-4-jaar-achter-de-poort-bij-chris-dooms/10137161.html

Yeah, I'm not believing that without additional supporting evidence. Compression ratio has nothing to do with displacement. Sounds like someone is assuming that longer stroke and/or larger displacement automatically means higher compression ratio, which is totally inaccurate.

Also... the sloppy stamping in the photo above could be "0041", not "00/1".

I've heard this claim before, that a couple of 6.2L AMG M119's exist, but to date there has been zero evidence. The only way to get 6.2L is either 102mm bore (which I'm certain AMG would NEVER do), or keeping 100mm bore and extending stroke to 98.8mm (6207cc) or 100mm (6283cc). Any of the people who claim to own the unicorn 6.2/6.3 M119 AMG, should post proof of the longer stroke, measurable through the spark plug hole.

 

[WDB748372]

I contacted him a while ago. And asked him why he knew this. Because of the 11:1 compression ratio he replied.

Not sure if I believe that just based off of the compression ratio. That car was for sale 2015/2016 in Netherlands by Star Gallery. Archived for sale link. VIN should be WDB2100721A293186 as engine number matches datacard along with the specs I filtered. No mention of any 6.3L engine in the listing.

I also have some more photos saved, couldn't find where I found them. These look to be from the owner mentioned in the article, Chris Dooms, himself. Yard looks like his other photos on his profile and one of the photos looks to be him in the car. Article date is 2019 so I'm guessing he started this claim but unless there are measurements it's kinda baseless imo.

 

[weide1]

That car was for sale 2015/2016 in Netherlands by Star Gallery.

I knew Autoweek - in person Bas van Putten - made a video of it. From about halfway.
All in Dutch though.

 

[Markus-MD]

Dutch after 5 Bier is no Problem . The Miracle of 6,3 in believe ,when i saw it. This is an endless discusion.All heart about bot knowone saw this.Brabus makes maybe 5 100mm Cranks .and this is in my mind the only Way to make 6,4/6,5 Cap.And this is the same as AMG all blocks are closed Deck. not open deck. Take 5,0 open deck and lock at thin socket .not enough Thicknes for 102,0mm .
not sure but here in this Forum read about for years from an guy from idonesiea or India .He make 102,00mm bore .but works not long or perfekt.
but not sure

 

[weide1]

There was a AMG 6,6 M117. With 100 x 105 mm bore and stroke. Maybe the crank was also used in later M119 versions?

Here i have a (already blurred) Fahrzeugbrief that shows AMG K6.2. K generally means Kompressor, but the actual motor is NA!
I also have some Japanse car registration documents that show 6,19L.

@036 showed me these AMG Fred Laufer Essen sheets the other day. Where the 6.2 is mentioned. But in the Fahrzeugbrief i read KLS 119 6.3K.
That same K again. But still no Kompressor!

What does this K stand for in the Fahrzeugbrief? @Markus-MD, I suppose you know this?

288 kW and 6197 cm³ would indeed make it KLS. My first thoughts were Lorinser/MKB though. But how strange, why did AMG Fred Laufer put a KLS engine in a W124?
KLS did 102 mm bore, and with 95,5 mm stroke, this makes 6243 cm³.

But as said, this is all W124. No sign of W210 with AMG 6.2/6.3. The search continues.

 

[gsxr]

I had never heard of any M117 with 105mm stroke! That's crazytown. @jhodg5ck - you know anything about that unicorn? Must only be possible with the tall-deck blocks (M117, and M119.960).

102mm bores on the M119 have a bad reputation, due to very thin cylinder walls. I've not heard of any 102mm bore M119 with high miles. Seems the 102mm-bore engines generally failed in short order. Which is why I personally would not go beyond AMG's limit of 100.5mm bore (the allowed "repair" size for the standard 100mm bore AMG 6.0 engines). Brabus chose to dance with the devil by pushing to 101mm bore for their 6.4L engines (101mm bore, 100mm stroke, 6409cc, badged as "65"). Seems those engines survived, but if I were custom building anything, I wouldn't want to push my luck.

I am suspicious that the alleged W210 6.2/6.3 engines simply don't exist. I'm not sure when this mythical engine first was "discovered", or why people believe it exists.

 

[Markus-MD]

100mm stroke*100mm Diameter gives exakt Hubraum: 6.283,20 cm3
100mm stroke+101mm Diameter gives Hubraum: 6.409,49 cm3 That the Brabus 6,5
and test says like not High revs .but a monster of tourqe

 

[weide1]

But maybe @195910 can show a bit more of the 1998 SL60 without AMG Stamps.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

 

[weide1]

I had never heard of any M117 with 105mm stroke! That's crazytown. @jhodg5ck - you know anything about that unicorn? Must only be possible with the tall-deck blocks (M117, and M119.960).

 

[weide1]

@weide1 @WDB748372
Gentlemen both engine blocks you posted appear to be post-production conversions. The car I am referencing is a matching number factory SL60 AMG. No AMG Stamps are present.

This "matching numbers in relation to no AMG stamps" issue is interesting territory.
Since a few pop up lately.
Sira Collector and his SL73, and RWB Porsche UK with his 500 SL 6.0.

The latter also owns this C140 7.0.

 

[weide1]

I wonder how much kW this NV version has.
Will it be 225 kW [302hp] at 5700 rpm?

Since that is what is shown in this Fahrzeugbrief.

 

[weide1]

I have a hard time believing AMG would build any engine without adding the AMG stamps to the block somewhere.

This SL60 has matching numbers and no AMG stamp. Image 134/135.
It's the one from the Instagram SL60 from post #40.