Turtle Garage: 20 Cars to Consider for Your Garage

[gerryvz]

Philip Richter of Turtle Garage just authored another article in his blog, titled "20 Cars to Consider For Your Garage."

The 500E is the first car listed.

The 560SEC also made the list.

https://www.turtlegarage.com/2019/03/24/twenty-cars-to-consider-for-your-garage/

Enjoy!
Cheers,
Gerry

 

[ace10]

Hard to find fault with many cars on that list.

But I did laugh when I read this about the Lotus Elise...

"An affordable supercar in a tiny package."

I think the writer is confusing supercar with exotic car. The Elise has 190hp, and while agile and athletic, it is not a supercar. Heck, my blown Exige isn't even a 4 second to 60 car and tops out in the mid 140s.

 

[Bogeyman]

"The ultimate pre-AMG sports sedan also happens to be the best sedan Mercedes ever built."

No argument from me....

 

[8899]

A similar list here:

https://www.sothebys.com/en/slidesh...8_version_a&utm_medium=email&utm_source=zaius

 

[gerryvz]

A similar list here:

https://www.sothebys.com/en/slideshows/rm-essen-european-and-japanese-cars-from-the-youngtimer-collection?cmp=email_ES19_selects_Cool_Cars_That_Ride_the_Wave_of_'80s_and_'90s_Nostalgia_hero2_29-Mar-19&utm_campaign=Sothebys_Selects_LIVE_New&utm_content=email_sothebys_selects_live_new_2018_version_a&utm_medium=email&utm_source=zaius

The only thing with this list is that these are all cars that Sotheby's is selling, so they have a vested/financial interest in flogging them.

Turtle Garage (while I'm sure Philip owns, has owned or will own many of the cars on his Top 20 list), has no direct or indirect financial interest in the list. He is an enthusiast who is listing cars that he personally finds notable from the era.

As a follow-up, he just yesterday posted a second blog post with an adjunct list of "youngtimer" cars:

https://www.turtlegarage.com/2019/03/30/reader-feedback-a-few-to-grow-on/

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[8899]

The only thing with this list is that these are all cars that Sotheby's is selling, so they have a vested/financial interest in flogging them.

Right. But keep in mind, those 15 cars are only a small part of one individual's collection...probably an enthusiast who is selling the cars that he found notable from the era. According to Sotheby's:

"The now world-renowned Youngtimer Collection is making its final stop in Essen, Germany this April. Assembled by a collector who admired these vehicles in his youth, the Youngtimer Collection features more than 140 of the most collectible European and Japanese automobiles of the 1970s through 2000s. Many of the collection’s rarest and most unique production cars from the 1980s and 1990s will be on offer at the inaugural Essen auction, held during the Techno-Classica Show. Click ahead to view highlights by Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Nissan and more."

 

[Klink]

Philip Richter of Turtle Garage just authored another article in his blog, titled "20 Cars to Consider For Your Garage."

The 500E is the first car listed.
https://www.turtlegarage.com/2019/03/24/twenty-cars-to-consider-for-your-garage/

Of course, he just tried to auction off his E500 for good money. Maybe it's just as well that he keeps it...

 

[Klink]

He does hit a slew of my favorites in that piece. I'm surprised at how many. I probably shouldn't be...

 

[gerryvz]

Another thought-provoking post on Turtle Garage, with relevance and ramifications toward "our" cars:

https://www.turtlegarage.com/2019/04/21/youngtimer-unicorns-redefinin​​​g-rarity/

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Mantra (Manifesto?) of the Odometer Buyer.

 

[Melville]

I've always found this psychology interesting. If there is nothing actually important that separates two cars, keep on looking at unimportant things until you find a reason why one is rarer than the other. Then that thing suddenly becomes important. Mileage. Numbers matching. One owner. Built on the last day of February in a leap year during which there was a solar eclipse. These things have absolute no correlation to the quality of the machine. But they are easy to point to and so give the brain an easy way to rank things. It's much harder to rank based on actual mechanical condition, or actual cosmetic condition. But low miles and one owner! That's easy! I can easily show that my car is better than your car with more miles and an additional owner (or four).

Happily for people that just want a good machine and don't care about these "imaginary" differentiators, it makes higher mileage, multiple owner cars less desirable and therefore more affordable.

 

[gerryvz]

Another great blog post from Philip Richter at TURTLE GARAGE.....

"The War on Driving"

 

[FerenzWR]

Yeah, I also remember how he was demonstrating in his garage that great portable workbench (like one of these: https://cozyhousetoday.com/best-portable-workbench-reviews/), and explaining how this workbench helped him in the repair processes with his E 500 and other models. It's great when a repairman can to move his workbench just because it has option to be portable, isn't it?

 

[gerryvz]

More from Turtle Garage, this time on the R129 ....

https://www.turtlegarage.com/2019/07/23/a-profile-of-perfection-the-mercedes-benz-r129-sl-is-thirty-years-old/

 

[alabbasi]

Hard to believe that the R129 is 30 years old. I remember when these cars first came out and they were the d*gs bollocks.

I was about 17 years old at the time and found myself staring at these cars quite a lot of time. You must have been a superstar to own one.

I now own a 98 SL500 which I love and a 90 300SL with a 5 speed that I hate.
I hate the 5 speed for the condition it's in. The body was hit and poorly repaired in its past life, the interior is trashed and the car would buck like it has a bad coil when it's warm, but it's not the coil. I bought a 300SL parts car with a nice body and interior and plan on doing a swap at some point but until then. As far as the driving experience. The 5 speed really transforms the M104 motor which loves to rev. It's a completely different car to the V8.

I think that they might be finally coming up in price. When I bought mine, they were worthless.

 

[Dunnik]

Had I the room, lived in year-round sunny climes and was a little bit more of an exhibitionist - have long believed you need to be a little bit of one to drive a cabrio - then I'd absolutely get an R129 (probably an SL600). To have two of Bruno Sacco's iconic designs in one garage would just be cargasmic to me.

 

[Jlaa]

Hard to believe that the R129 is 30 years old. I remember when these cars first came out and they were the d*gs bollocks.

I was about 17 years old at the time and found myself staring at these cars quite a lot of time. You must have been a superstar to own one.

I now own a 98 SL500 which I love and a 90 300SL with a 5 speed that I hate.
I hate the 5 speed for the condition it's in. The body was hit and poorly repaired in its past life, the interior is trashed and the car would buck like it has a bad coil when it's warm, but it's not the coil. I bought a 300SL parts car with a nice body and interior and plan on doing a swap at some point but until then. As far as the driving experience. The 5 speed really transforms the M104 motor which loves to rev. It's a completely different car to the V8.

I think that they might be finally coming up in price. When I bought mine, they were worthless.

Curious minds (mine) want to know --- what is the driving experience of your SL500 vs. that of your E500E, given that that R129 is built on a modified version of the w124 chassis?

 

[alabbasi]

Curious minds (mine) want to know --- what is the driving experience of your SL500 vs. that of your E500E, given that that R129 is built on a modified version of the w124 chassis?

I'm curious about that too. I probably bought and sold 150 cars in the last decade and none were a 500E

 

[gerryvz]

Folks are not in a buying mood, at least for E500Es. Too worried about their 401(k) loans and HELOC balances and the supposedly looming recession.

At this point, unless the stock market dramatically picks up, I think the US E500E market is going to be muted until the next Presidential election, when there will be more clarity on US economic policy. That’s 15 months of a muted/mixed/dampened E500E market, folks.

Exceptions will be unicorn, concours/low-odo and “special” examples. But every they won’t bring the $$$ they did a year or two ago

This mood is not just for the E500E market. Pebble Beach total auction results were WAY down this year from 2018.

Market psychology ... it’s a strange thing.

Philip Richter's latest "Turtle Garage" post, about the 2019 Monterey auction results.

As I mentioned in my recent "Psychology of Flipping & Flippers" post, that I quoted above, it was a bloodbath in Monterey this year, and auction results were down 30+% from last year due to the current financial situation. People are averse to taking on more debt for new cars, and are worried about those outstanding HELOCs and 401(k) loans that they used to purchase new garage baubles over the past 2.5 years.....

https://www.turtlegarage.com/2019/08/26/monterey-car-week-2019-mild-market-correction-or-chernobyl/

 

[gsxr]

Financial situation? Nope, it was my fault... I list a car for sale and *boom*, the market tanks. Sorry everyone.

 

[gerryvz]

I think the market tanked about the day after @8899 sold his car.

 

[8899]

I think the market tanked about the day after @8899 sold his car.

I finally managed to accurately time the market!

 

[Sam SL]

As of March of this year I own both the 92 500e and 97 SL500 which I believe shares the same motor as the W124 but with a 5 speed transmission. The R129 is special in that it only has the equivalent of 33,000 miles (55,000 kms) versus my 500e which now has 140,000 miles. I would say the 500e drives better overall. The throttle seems more responsive probably due to the car's lighter weight and handling/road feel is superior, nimbler. That is quite something because the SL500 rides on 18" staggered AMG monoblocks while the 500e drives on its stock 16" wheels. I also think the Recaro seats in the 500 offer more of a sporty feel. Both cars are more or less full leather. The SL more so in that everything including the sun visors, A-pillars, dashboard, entire door cards, roll bar, console etc. The Bose stereo in the SL is exemplary even by today's standard. In summary, the SL offers a luxuriating experience while the 500 is that sleeper sports sedan.

 

[Jlaa]

As of March of this year I own both the 92 500e and 97 SL500 which I believe shares the same motor as the W124 but with a 5 speed transmission. The R129 is special in that it only has the equivalent of 33,000 miles (55,000 kms) versus my 500e which now has 140,000 miles. I would say the 500e drives better overall. The throttle seems more responsive probably due to the car's lighter weight and handling/road feel is superior, nimbler. That is quite something because the SL500 rides on 18" staggered AMG monoblocks while the 500e drives on its stock 16" wheels. I also think the Recaro seats in the 500 offer more of a sporty feel. Both cars are more or less full leather. The SL more so in that everything including the sun visors, A-pillars, dashboard, entire door cards, roll bar, console etc. The Bose stereo in the SL is exemplary even by today's standard. In summary, the SL offers a luxuriating experience while the 500 is that sleeper sports sedan.

Thanks for your comments --- I appreciate the comparison / contrast between the r129 and the w124.036. I do not wish to be intentionally pedantic but I believe "sleeper sports sedan" is not a great categorization of the 500E. I don't think it is agile/nimble enough to be a sports sedan. If I compare it with similarly sized contemporaries, like the e34 M5, or the Ford Taurus SHO, or smaller contemporaries like the Peugeout 405Mi16, or the Mitsubishi Lancer EVO I, I think all those cars were a bit more agile than the 500E.

I view the 500E more as a muscle-car-sedan who's mission was to go Vmax, quickly, on autobahn-type-roads, in comfort. And that is exactly why I am very enamored of the car.

That being said, as sports sedans are all the rage today, perhaps my lens is tainted --- in the 1990s, relatively clumsy hardware like the Pontiac Bonneville SSEi was also considered to be a sports sedan. So maybe I'm really pointing out nothing at all.

I just get annoyed when 2019-era enthusiasts drive a 1990s-era 500E and complain that it isn't as sharp as they expect a sports sedan to be. This is because, I think, today, with the democratization of performance, people expect one car, a sports sedan, to do it all. That wasn't the case back then. Back then, in the late 80s / early 90s, the goalposts that defined "Mercedes-Benz owner" were different. The 500E was meant for a guy that had a huge horse barn, which was stocked with perhaps a whole passel of sports cars already ---- and the 500E was just another horse in that stable.

In the 1990s, you didn't own a 500E and expect that car to do it all.

 

[gsxr]

I just get annoyed when 2019-era enthusiasts drive a 1990s-era 500E and complain that it isn't as sharp as they expect a sports sedan to be.

This.^^^

Almost every 036 on BaT has some muppet in the comments whining about it being overpriced and underpowered. Said muppets just don't get it, and probably never will. (Note that most have never actually driven an E500E, either.)

 

[gerryvz]

There's a saying out there: It's better to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow.

It's a very true saying.

I would characterize Laura's 2017 Lexus IS350 F-Sport as a "sport sedan" by the modern definition of the word. In its' own way, a fun to drive car with 300+HP in a hyper-active 3.5-liter V-6 with six speeds and AWD.



The E500E was never intended to be a sport sedan, and the category was just emerging back in the 1990s.

The E500E was intended to be along the lines of the 1968-1972 300SEL 6.3, with a little bit of AMG Hammer (itself not a "sport sedan") mixed in: a very understated, conservative executive transport ("Banker's Hotrod") that happened to have enough power to keep up or surpass on autobahns the so-called "sports cars" and "exotic cars" of its day, yet be a docile every-day sedan one could live with. The E500E was not designed to be a canyon carver, a race-car, or a "sport/performance" sedan in the BMW M5 vein.

50% of the E500E's appeal is the fact that it is understated. And this is why it doesn't appeal to the "sport sedan" and flash-car crowd. Even with its older M models, BMW was anything BUT understated. MB was all about being understated. If you wanted a flash-car MB, you got an AMG, a Brabus, a Lorinser, a Carat Duchatalet, a Carlsson, a RENNtech, a Koenig.

What is most sad now, is that MB has lost that differentiation from BMW and other marques. MB today is just another maker of "sport sedan" AMG-whatever versions of every model it makes. Just like BMW's M-everything. Sad.

 

[Sam SL]

I would agree with how the classification of 'sports sedan' may not fit the 500e. However, it sure feels a lot sportier to me than the sportier looking SL R129. What would have been a category of cars that one could have slotted the 500e into back in the 90's? What did one call an understated European muscle car that was perfect as a getaway vehicle?

 

[Jlaa]

I would agree with how the classification of 'sports sedan' may not fit the 500e. However, it sure feels a lot sportier to me than the sportier looking SL R129. What would have been a category of cars that one could have slotted the 500e into back in the 90's? What did one call an understated European muscle car that was perfect as a getaway vehicle?

Supercar.

And it was all about the engine - not so much the chassis. I don't think there was any other category that could describe the 500E at the time which is why the car was so significant when it came out in 1991.

Just to put things in context, in 1992 BMW introduced their M60 4.0 liter v8 engine and that was a BIG BIG BIG deal. It made 282 hp / 295 lb-ft of torque and the automotive press went gaga over it as BMW had not made a v8 engine in TWENTY-FIVE years. Heck, a few years earlier, BMW had just introduced their M70 SOHC 5.0 liter v12 engine, which made 295 hp and 332 lb-ft of torque in the big 750iL..... and that itself was a big deal because no-one else (aside from Jaguar) had made a v12 in many many years.

Also in 1991, the Porsche 911 Turbo (964) used a 3.3 liter engine that made 316 hp and 332-lb ft of torque.

So when Mercedes came out with the 5.0 liter M119 in a mid-sized car, that was like bringing a gun to a knife fight. It made more power AND torque than BMW's v12, a contemporary 911 turbo, and crushed BMW's then new 4.0 liter v8. And that was from a manufacturer that, at the time, was best known for cranking out legions and legions of w123 240Ds and 300Ds, which were epitomes of vehicular lethargy.

 

[195910]

Right. But keep in mind, those 15 cars are only a small part of one individual's collection...probably an enthusiast who is selling the cars that he found notable from the era. According to Sotheby's:

"The now world-renowned Youngtimer Collection is making its final stop in Essen, Germany this April. Assembled by a collector who admired these vehicles in his youth, the Youngtimer Collection features more than 140 of the most collectible European and Japanese automobiles of the 1970s through 2000s. Many of the collection’s rarest and most unique production cars from the 1980s and 1990s will be on offer at the inaugural Essen auction, held during the Techno-Classica Show. Click ahead to view highlights by Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Nissan and more."

Too late to mention this, but it was a made up collection by a Q8i hoarder who had them stored in CH, nearly all were recent acquisition japan export auction cars. No history and definitely no "collector who admired these cars" in sight.

But you gotta admire the high quality BS put into this

 

[gerryvz]

I would agree with how the classification of 'sports sedan' may not fit the 500e. However, it sure feels a lot sportier to me than the sportier looking SL R129. What would have been a category of cars that one could have slotted the 500e into back in the 90's? What did one call an understated European muscle car that was perfect as a getaway vehicle?

That's the point !! There was really no classification for it, because there was not much else that was equivalent to it.

I also wouldn't all the R129 a "sports car" either. To me it is more of a "luxury roadster" with a very slight nod to sporting ambitions.

 

[Stevester 500E]

After acquiring my W124 coupe, I test drove a 400e. I thought wow, some power. Then I drove an R129 5.0, and I loved the power, but I got this impression that it was a car to be driven in a straight line.
I would agree that the R129 is more of a luxury roadster.

 

[Stevester 500E]

The few things that I think would have made the 500e nicer would be:
EZL-less engine
A more robust and W140-esque interior, i.e. headliner, door cards, center console/dash.
All chrome trimmed grill.
Maybe no 3rd brake light inside the car, rather a third brake light strip on the trunk.
And possibly a unique set of wheels

 

[gerryvz]

@maw1124

I thought this article would be of interest to you....

The Rise of the BMW E30: Madness is the New Normal | Turtle Garage

www.turtlegarage.com

 

[Jlaa]

Wow, USD 65K is a lot of clams for a non-M E30. That said, my own (perhaps unpopular?) opinion --- a small-straight-six E30 is more satisfying than an E30 M3 is to own. The engine is more balanced. There's more torque and you don't need to rev the jeezus out of it all the time.

 

[alabbasi]

I remember around 2012, I would see E30's for sale in the $2000-5000 mark and thought to myself that these are incredible bargains. I had an 88 318i during my college years and there's a funny story behind it. It was a UK spec fleet car and the first year of the face lift models with the M40 engine so it had the updated tail lights and bumpers. No power steering, or windows. Just a crank sunroof and central locking.

I had an 84 Opel Manta GT/E before it with serious steering issues. It required so much effort to steer, that I would sweat while driving it at 40mph, until I got used it. I ended up with arms like Schwarzenegger and nobody else could drive that car.

The 318i was for my mother who needed a car and asked me to look at it for her as I was at home during the summer. The seller bought it to the house so I drove it and it drove fine. I parked it in the drive and told her to buy it, then went out to meet with friends. When I got home that evening, my dad greeted me by yelling how I let my mother buy a car without power steering. WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO POWER STEERING? I was so used to the Manta that I thought it did!

That was an early lesson in personal responsibility. He made me buy the car and we arranged a payment plan. I drove it up until I moved to the US.

I'd love to have a late model 325IC at some point when I have fewer cars. It's a truly practical convertible.

 

[maw1124]

@maw1124

I thought this article would be of interest to you....

The Rise of the BMW E30: Madness is the New Normal | Turtle Garage

www.turtlegarage.com

While I don’t quite understand it, I have some thoughts, in no particular order of importance: (1) BMWs don’t really age well. Sure they age, but not particularly well, IMO. MB, Bentley, Ferrari all do better than BMW, Porsche and Audi, in general. Maybe that’s why BMW collectors are such a rabid bunch — there’s a built in rarity; (2) that color spawned a new mid-grey fascination that continues to this day, everywhere; (3) the iSports are always special, second only to M variants (again disagreeing with JLaa, though I’ve never driven a non-M), I’ve learned from my rabid BMW collector friends, one of whom owns ever chassis variant of M3 produced, usually in the rarest formulation, and often multiples. He has a low mileage E30 manual sitting in his shop showroom; and (4) this one obviously had to be kept indoors, away from sun and weather.

Still... madness. Thanks for sharing.

maw

 

[Jlaa]

...(3) the iSports are always special, second only to M variants (again disagreeing with JLaa, though I’ve never driven a non-M), I’ve learned from my rabid BMW collector friends, one of whom owns ever chassis variant of M3 produced, usually in the rarest formulation, and often multiples. He has a low mileage E30 manual sitting in his shop showroom;

... to be clear, my opinion is that an M20-straight-six powered E30 (mid 80s 3 series) is more satisfying to own than a S14-inline-4 (M power high strung 4 cylinder) E30 M3.

That opinion does not relate to E36 nor E46 chassis cars (I believe you have an e46).

Also to be clear --- my opinion is "... more satisfying to own ..." meaning drive all the time, for many years. An E30M3 is more exciting to rev the nuts off of once in a great while, but not to own, day in and day out (IMHO).

 

[daantjie]

I am no Beemer hater by any means, and I do think they build bomber engines, just look at the McLaren F1 motor, simply in a league of it's own. But as a complete package they simply are not in the Benz league, at least if we look at cars from the '70's to 90's - ish. How many old 7 series Beemers do you still see on the road compared to the w126 and W140? Exactly. The E30 is for sure having it's time in the sun, but if you time this run up wrong you will get a bad rash...Tons of them made so they are by no means a rare car.

 

[kwontumspeed]

My friend has a beautiful E38, less than 85k miles on the clock. It's just a gorgeous car...until you get in it, drive it and feel it rattling apart. And don't dare touch any switches, those have checked out a long, long time ago, too. Maybe it's the southern sun that take them earlier than the 036, but he always comments on how mine is clearly outlasting his build.

 

[gerryvz]

I was in Seattle from last Sunday night to Friday evening. I saw on the streets of downtown Seattle and on I-5, over those days, four or five W124s (no E5Es), several W202s and a couple of W123s. I was surprised. Almost as much as I see in the Bay Area when I'm there.

 

[maw1124]

My friend has a beautiful E38, less than 85k miles on the clock. It's just a gorgeous car...until you get in it, drive it and feel it rattling apart. And don't dare touch any switches, those have checked out a long, long time ago, too. Maybe it's the southern sun that take them earlier than the 036, but he always comments on how mine is clearly outlasting his build.

^^^ This. Every time I think about one (the 635i gets my goat), I get in it and think about how extensive would be the rebuild to get it to my spec. And what I’ll have after all that is what? Ain’t happening. I’m not in the roundel club like that. That said, my E46 looks good at 15 yrs old, so maybe my opinion changes. Oh wait, that’s because it’s garage kept, rarely driven and I’ve replaced how much of the interior plastic? Yeah I’m straight. And the E5E still feels better at 28yrs old. I have two other 15year olds, one with double the miles, and both are faring better.

But it’s a 3 series, what do you expect — M or no M? Certainly not to sell it for $65k, which is more than double what I paid. But hey, if I keep it long enough it just might happen with that roundel bunch. It’s quickly going down as “the best M3 ever”, says some other people who are clearly members of the roundel bunch. In the time I’ve owned mine, I’ve seen bimmer guys who used to diss the car clamoring to get one. Just like the 996 crowd. Go figure.

maw

PS. And I hear you @Jlaa... I just don’t see myself driving any 3-series every day, so for me it may as well be an M. I just don’t really see the point otherwise. I remind people that the straight 6 is what made BMW famous, so there we agree. An 8500 rpm redline in a V8 or V10 is asking for rod bearing trouble, just ask any owner of an M car post the E46.

 

[alabbasi]

BMW's were better built than your average Euro cars and you will notice the difference in fit and finish when compared to anything other than a Mercedes. Mercedes Benz or the 70's and 80's were more solid by far. Of course all that extra weight affected the driving dynamics and made them far less fun to drive.

I own an 80's 5 , 6 and 7 series. The fit and finish in the 5 and 6 series are not that impressive, coming from a Mercedes Benz, you would be disappointed. My E23 745i however is just as well built as a W126. Mechanically, the M20 and M30 engines are indestructible. Mine has 300k miles and runs like a swiss clock. That's not too shabby for a straight 6 turbo from the 80's.

 

[maw1124]

The BMW drive trains were top notch up until ... I hate to say it ... the E39M and E46M. After that, it gets sketchy -- there's only so much you can do with naturally aspirated torqueless wonders, and what they did to go farther seemed to throw them off track a bit. The interiors (you know, where I spend my time) just never quite made it (notable exceptions, like the E38 Dinan TT and E39M with Extended Leather). Meanwhile, somewhere in the late 90s, Audi's fit and finish just went through the roof (the C5 Allroad 4.2 continues to absorb abuse with astounding aplomb) -- probably an over-compensation for the electric woes of the early 90s. And also in the late 90s, people swear MBs fit and finish took a dive with the W220 most notably, although I'm far less certain about that. Living daily with an E5E and S55, they feel VERY similar, unlike the MB stuff since '07.

This is all "1,2,3", "3,1,2", "2,1,3" sort of thing -- none are Volvos, Puegeots or Jaguars, so maybe we're slicing the garlic a bit thin (think Paulie in Goodfellas with the sauce). But that's what this site is for -- cars, fellowship and a nice stew of complimentary or contrary opinions. In all, I really think the EPA's CAFE regulations caused the biggest car degradation we've seen. But you know, a planet would be nice.

maw

 

[Jlaa]

The BMW drive trains were top notch up until ... I hate to say it ... the E39M and E46M. After that, it gets sketchy -- there's only so much you can do with naturally aspirated torqueless wonders, and what they did to go farther seemed to throw them off track a bit. The interiors (you know, where I spend my time) just never quite made it (notable exceptions, like the E38 Dinan TT and E39M with Extended Leather). Meanwhile, somewhere in the late 90s, Audi's fit and finish just went through the roof (the C5 Allroad 4.2 continues to absorb abuse with astounding aplomb) -- probably an over-compensation for the electric woes of the early 90s. And also in the late 90s, people swear MBs fit and finish took a dive with the W220 most notably, although I'm far less certain about that. Living daily with an E5E and S55, they feel VERY similar, unlike the MB stuff since '07.

This is all "1,2,3", "3,1,2", "2,1,3" sort of thing -- none are Volvos, Puegeots or Jaguars, so maybe we're slicing the garlic a bit thin (think Paulie in Goodfellas with the sauce). But that's what this site is for -- cars, fellowship and a nice stew of complimentary or contrary opinions. In all, I really think the EPA's CAFE regulations caused the biggest car degradation we've seen. But you know, a planet would be nice.

maw

I had a 1992 BMW 325i (E36). It was a lovely car, but I messed up that balance by fortifying it with 460 HP and 480 lb-ft of torque. It was overpowered after that. This is a time before traction control, so routing all that torque through 245-section rear tires was an exercise in caution. It wasn't that fun to drive to have to always think about losing the rear end. Lesson learned --- messing up a well balanced car is not advised.

Anyways --- the interior was lovely to look at, but it was crap. I had the off-white-colored interior. The leather disintegrated if you just looked at it wrong. I replaced the leather after a while, and they still disintegrated shortly thereafter. Interior plastics were weak sauce.

The car that I wish I never sold was also the most durable (but not necessarily the most trouble-free-with-0-maintenance) car that I've ever owned --- a 1991 Volvo 240. That car was nearly indestructible. The sheetmetal on that thing makes the w124 sheetmetal look weak. That car was so square that even the gear knob was square.

 

[maw1124]

That's the point !! There was really no classification for it, because there was not much else that was equivalent to it.

I also wouldn't all the R129 a "sports car" either. To me it is more of a "luxury roadster" with a very slight nod to sporting ambitions.

I don't know how I missed this thread but I love it. My eyes on this opened a few years after I got my 500E. A friend was selling his R129 500 Silver Arrow, so of course I took it out for a drive. 5 minutes in I was like, "what am I missing here? Why would I get this when I already have a 500E and an E46M convertible?" Short answer is, I didn't. The extra 300 or so lbs over the 500E made it feel more like an old school Benz and less like my AMG, which is what my 500E felt like (just 30-ish percent slower and smaller). So I passed. Of course, the E46M gets hit for that same 300lb tariff over its coupe brethren. But hey, I'm a convertible guy, what can I say? To @Dunnik 's point above, I've observed over the years that there are convertible people and non-convertible people (you know, those who have convertible cars and the roof never drops?). Who knew? 7 Billion people = 7 Billion ways to die.

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Philip Richter, proprietor of the Turtle Garage blog, is interviewed on the new "Buy Sell Hold" podcast. Buy Sell Hold is a collaboration of Keith Martin (editor/founder of Sports Car Market magazine) and Mark Greene (editor/founder of the CarsYeah! podcast, and former long-time #2 honcho at Griot's Garage).

Buy Sell Hold - Sports Car Market

Archive of all posts in the category of 'Buy Sell Hold', page .

www.sportscarmarket.com

Philip talks about his E500E experience on Podcast #5 at the link above. Start the podcast, and fast-forward to the 25:06 mark. Enjoy!

The context for the E500E-related segment of the discussion is a question about "Of all the cars in your collection, which car would you never sell or get rid of, for any price?"

 

[maw1124]

I’ve encountered no less than 1/2 dozen sellers and former owners over the years repeat a similar sentiment... “I shouldn’t have sold that car”; “I should have kept that car”; “I’ve let a couple slip through my hands”; “I’ve sold a few, not selling this one” sort of thing. Even my mechanic, who’s best friend sold me mine says, “if I had any sense I would have bought that car from him” after seeing what I’ve done with it. My S55 is quickly joining that “never sell it” club for me. I just don’t see a reason.

Cheers,

maw

 

[gsxr]

Money quote @ 27:50 : "It's just immune to miles."

But he only has 90kmi, lol. Barely broken in!

Edit: As a journalist, he loses points for "needs done" (sic) @ 37:27...

 

[sheward]

Entertaining, another enthusiast owner that understands the unique qualities! I like how he describes 90,000 miles as being "high miles". Thanks for posting. The thought sharing continues for me when he talks of the Ferrari F40 which i had the good fortune of driving once.

Maw. There is an S55 for sale locally that is driving me towards poverty, just from reading your thoughts over time.

drew

 

[captruff]

I had the pleasure of meeting Philip last year on the field of The Quail. We had a great conversation about the 190E 2.3-16 as he also has a very nice example in his collection. Additionally, he shared the story of the BMW M6 car he sold with a few more details.

I suspect he will be in Monterey for Car Week in 2020, so I will reach out to him and invite him to one of the 500EBoard dinners. I'm sure his schedule is busy, but you never know.

Jeff