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Wast spark ignition

pagodino

E500E Enthusiast
Member
As the two coil system of our car is not a very performing system (two coils with high dwell as the are used in wasted spark) I am thinking about to substitude it. The EZL creats two trigger signals and the distrubutor in our car is not necessary if you go for 2 x 4 COil (Ford) for each side or 8 Plug-coils triggert in semi-sequential mode (wasting spark).

Possible use M119 E50 plugs or easier with VW plug-coils triggert each side.

What do you think?

Best Pagodino
 
Good thinking...would that would retain the individual cylinder anti-knock capability?

Can you envisage any way of adjusting ignition timing?

Jim
 
The EZL is quite sophisticated, as Jim mentions it has the ability to adjust timing on individual cylinders. I would NOT replace it unless you were converting to a complete aftermarket engine management system for forced induction which, AFAIK, maybe a half-dozen people have ever reported successfully completing. On a stock engine, IMO, you are probably wasting time and $$$.

:shocking:
 
As the two coil system of our car is not a very performing system (two coils with high dwell as the are used in wasted spark) I am thinking about to substitude it. The EZL creats two trigger signals and the distrubutor in our car is not necessary if you go for 2 x 4 COil (Ford) for each side or 8 Plug-coils triggert in semi-sequential mode (wasting spark).

Possible use M119 E50 plugs or easier with VW plug-coils triggert each side.

What do you think?

Best Pagodino

Electromotive 4 x dual coils. :)

(used on a complete Electromotive EMS on a 6.0 SC)
 

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Explorer, that is what I mean. Your set up is from a Porsche 928 conversion? Anyway from our ELZ comes out two signals dedicated to one cylinder bank with 4 plugs an distributor so there is only a controll of the bank and not of the single cylinder. When the AST gets working the complete engine goes some degree closer to TDC in ignition not one cylinder. The same if the knocking sensor comes up. The signal leavs the same but you can use 4x2 or 2x4 or 8x1 semisequential with waste spark. If you want to modify the curves you have to go with a small megasquirt ECU but you will not have safety ignition controll. This could be made with a MS3X but only worthwile in major modifications to the engine.

Best Pagodino
 
The M119 EZL can adjusting timing on specific cylinders, despite the same coil being used on 4 cylinders. See pages 23-28 of the FSM at link below.

http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/LHIS/15-0020.pdf

"...the ignition timing for the cylinder in which knocking combustion has taken place is retarded by 3° CA as early as the next ignition. ... Should no further knocking combustion occur, the ignition timing of the cylinder in question is restored to the map value..."

:mushroom:
 
How?

You have only a black and the other black blue trigger line going to each coil? The engine has 4 triggers on the flywheel and one on the front. Is there a CAM trigger?

Best pagodino
 
The EZL knows which cylinder is being fired based on the crank sensor. So although there are only 2 coils / distributors, the EZL modifies the signal to fire the coil depending on what cylinder is firing. It's not firing all 4 cylinders at the same time, that's what the distributor is for...

:pc1:
 
Without a cam trigger it is hard to go sequential. For example if youbuse MS3X without cam trigger you are ever semi sequential in a 8 cylinder. The managment had to calculate it on the base of two signals with one in half time. What is the trick?
 
There is often some serious misunderstanding on the coil and distributor versus cylinder allocation for the M119. Each distributor fires two cylinders on each bank. Note the rats nest of meter plus length plug wires that run across the top of the engine.

These are 90° V-8 engines with 90° crankshafts. In terms of the ignition management, It is NOT conceptually two four-cylinder engines on a common crank, as people often assume when looking at it, and / or they confuse this concept with that of the M120 V12, which actually IS two straight six engines on a common crank...
:klink:
 
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Without a cam trigger it is hard to go sequential. For example if youbuse MS3X without cam trigger you are ever semi sequential in a 8 cylinder. The managment had to calculate it on the base of two signals with one in half time. What is the trick?

There is also a cam trigger. It is used during cranking so the EZL can identify the cylinders individually for antiknock control. The cam sensor is also used to sequence injector nozzle opening. There is one crankshaft position sensor for the ignition system. It reads four segments on the ring gear for coil firing. Two alternate segments additionally have a permanent magnet inserted into them. The resulting extra spike in the signal tells the EZL the coil firing sequence. Typical MB, it is dirt simple, and elegant, and complicated all at the same time...
:klink:
 
There is also a cam trigger. It is used during cranking so the EZL can identify the cylinders individually for antiknock control. The cam sensor is also used to sequence injector nozzle opening. There is one crankshaft position sensor for the ignition system. It reads four segments on the ring gear for coil firing. Two alternate segments additionally have a permanent magnet inserted into them. The resulting extra spike in the signal tells the EZL the coil firing sequence. Typical MB, it is dirt simple, and elegant, and complicated all at the same time...
:klink:

The variable cam timing is the ONLY mechanical variable parameter per cyl.bank. The other parameters achieved mechanically are the fixed points picked up by the crank pos.sensor. When the variable cam timing adjusts it will happen for all cylinders per bank. The EZL get the cam position from each bank, and adjust the firing point individually on each coil, yes. But the distributors are mechanically driven with fixed points, which means the EZL cannot fire the same coil individually to each bank. So the EZL adjust the firing point individually on the two coils - but the fire point will be equal on both banks from the same coil, simply because the distributors are mechanically driven.

So the ignition system is electronic yes, but it is mechanically driven with two coils only, which allows close to zero sofisticated ignition adjustments in real life. (except from altering the timing advance plugs). When the mechanical distributors are replaced with electronically controlled distribution, it is a different story - even with two coils only.
 

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I thought the for EIS system for a 4 cylinder just blew all 4 at once. That's why its called wasted spark, and the one with gas blows up! I have been wondering for years if I could just plug in two Ford 4x coils and run the car. I just didn't want to damage the EZL. As long as the coils are the same type it should work.

-Mike
 
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The variable cam timing is the ONLY mechanical variable parameter per cyl.bank. The other parameters achieved mechanically are the fixed points picked up by the crank pos.sensor. When the variable cam timing adjusts it will happen for all cylinders per bank. The EZL get the cam position from each bank, and adjust the firing point individually on each coil, yes. But the distributors are mechanically driven with fixed points, which means the EZL cannot fire the same coil individually to each bank. So the EZL adjust the firing point individually on the two coils - but the fire point will be equal on both banks from the same coil, simply because the distributors are mechanically driven.

So the ignition system is electronic yes, but it is mechanically driven with two coils only, which allows close to zero sofisticated ignition adjustments in real life. (except from altering the timing advance plugs). When the mechanical distributors are replaced with electronically controlled distribution, it is a different story - even with two coils only.

I'm not sure that I understand your point, Arnt, so forgive me if my response is somehow not on point with your comment, and please realize also that my following comments here are to the readers in general, and not only to you. I'm sure a bunch, if not all of the things I say here are things you already know well.

Most in particular, I do not understand what "sophistications" regarding ignition timing that would somehow be inhibited by the fixed mechanical design of the ignition distributors. On the 119, the distributors do not in any way determine the firing points, they simply route the spark to the correct cylinder. The width of the rotor electrode is enough to accommodate any conceivable amount of spark advance, and the distance between wire towers is enough to prevent crossfiring. So the distributors are completely passive players in regards to anything that I might consider a "sophistication" and I see their limits as almost entirely consisting of voltage drops due to conductor lengths and arc gaps, and all of their attendant propensities for insulation and isolation faults, which also increase proportionately with conductor length.

Don't get me wrong, I hate distributors. They are failure prone PITAs, and I applaud their absence anytime it's found. I am just not sure that enough people appreciate that the distributors on these engines are completely passive players having no influence whatsoever on the ignition timing, and they do not impose any theoretical limit on any practically usable timing management that one could conceive.

Nor do I think enough people appreciate how sophisticated the stock EZL actually is. The EZL on the M119 does vary the spark timing over a very wide range. The EZL receives all of the usual variables that one would expect to find on a naturally aspirated engine either directly, such as via the manifold vacuum sensor, or indirectly via the data bus.

The mechanical references on the crankshaft are precision placements which give the EZL its mechanical information regarding the crank angle. The critical part is that these segments are references used in calculating the firing point, they are not the sole determinant of the firing point. There is only one camshaft sensor, and it is used to determine, by reference, the first cylinder in a firing order. This occurs the first time the camshaft sensor is pulsed while cranking, and from that point the processor simply keeps count (15486372, ad infinitum) The EZL counts, clocks, and compares the absolute mechanical reference from the crank sensor as it grabs a firing point from a three dimensional map, applies the necessary advance or delay to achieve that theoretically optimum firing point, and then fires the appropriate coil with that calculated time offset applied. Obviously, I do not know the exact design nor the circuit topographies, but something like this is what goes on. The appropriate timing offsets may be "on the map", for example, so a real-time extra calculation may not be required, etc. etc....

Here's an interesting kicker that not many people know, but I am thinking that some people would want to preserve this part if they ever attempt some kind of a distributorless installation: The EZL always "knows" which cylinder it is firing, and it applies any timing modification due to knock sensing only on a per cylinder basis. I could be wrong, but I think that was absolutely unique at the time. It then went a shocking additional step further, especially considering the time: Rather than continually cycling into and out of knocking as most systems did, it stored individual maps for each cylinder incorporating the changes required during antiknock intervention. Yes, your crappy lowly unloved EZL builds and stores optimum timing maps for each individual cylinder! These modifications are "tested" on occasion to see if the timing can be advanced back out without knocking, and if so those modifications are stored so that timing retardations implemented for antiknock control ("AKR", in Benz acronym speak) do not become absolutely permanent. Without such a retest and restoration scheme, one could easily imagine a tank of crappy fuel "permanently" diminishing the engine performance.

Now, would eliminating distributors and replacing this stuff with eight big happy coils be a great thing, all other things being equal? Hell yes, it would! And I think it would almost be a necessity with some forced induction applications. The "all other things being equal" part is where some doubt may exist.

The great disappointment of EZL to me is that with all of this sophistication already present, it seems a shame that they didn't add a little extra circuitry, six more output devices, and then fire those eight individual coils. But my point is still that the fixed mechanical distributors are not any limit on "sophistication", at least regarding ignition timing management, and that EZL/AKR gets far too little respect...
:klink:
 
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Excellent summary, Klink! Exactly what I was trying to say earlier.

:worthy:

I didn't try to say it (nor would I or could I), but have been reading along with interest. And what Klink just said matches exactly what I imagined was going on. MB and their computers are simply off the charts -- says every computer and car guru I've ever known, including Klink and his high school buddies (geniuses in their own rights).

It's like The Matrix (the MB computers and their brains, BTW). I had my LH Module rebuilt (capacitors replaced), and not only can I "feel" the difference (just like I can hear the difference in a Carver amp that went through the same procedure -- smoother delivery), I've noticed a 2-3 mpg increase during highway cruising.

I'm certain that's all computers, nothing mechanical. Thanks for all of this, Klink.

Cheers,

maw
 

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