OWNER Winmutt (E420)

[winmutt]

Long time lurker and now owner of 94 E420. You may recognize me from the other forums where I was very active in the diesel forums for years. I also run superturbodiesel.com forum and manage the related Facebook group.

Last year with return to the work place inevitable, I started hankering for a m119. I picked up this car last weekend from Alabama and am the 5th owner. Car is mostly non running, original wiring harness, with an odo that appears to be stuck at 125k. The body is in pretty decent shape but there is a dent in the rear drivers that will need attending to. I'm sourcing a good used updated harness tomorrow hopefully and have the 38 pin diag box. Hopefully on Saturday, after I replace the harness everything will magically work and self heal. Haha, something something about a cheap Mercedes.

The shock/struts are gone and I found a reasonably KYB/vogtland kit on ebay I'll throw on. I prefer Bilsteins B6 but baby steps. Not on this picture is the 95 E300 next to it that is currently going through some mild upgrades: sl600 brakes, b6, big sway bars, refreshed suspension bits and a turbo 606 with a hx30 and diesel mekken injection pump which I hope will deliver in the mid 300hp range. Anywho, the "vintage" Mercedes community has always been a good one and I'm looking forward to digging in a bit more here.

 

[gsxr]

Congrats on the new E420, winmutt! Just curious, does it have ASR? Once you get the harness replaced, clear codes on all 6 powertrain modules and see what codes, if any, return. More info is at the De-Coding subforum sticky threads. If you plan to keep this car long term, and/or plan to own any newer MB's, shell out for a full SDS with HHT-Win support... it will make diagnostics easier with live data available. You still need the hand-held blinker box though, and a breakout box that allows using 4mm pins is sooo much easier than trying to figure out which socket to fit 1mm pins into. If you haven't yet bought that KYB/vogtland kit, please reconsider. If it's already shipped, cross your fingers and hope for the best.

The E300 project sounds fantastic. Would love to see build info on that. Some day I'd still like to get my OM603.960 producing around 300hp. It's currently stock other than a 350SDL turbo (made pretty much no difference) and a maxed-out pump with 6mm elements, making maybe 200hp tops. EGT's and IAT's are the current gating factor due to the undersized turbo, and I haven't had time to mess with custom fabrication. Been busy with M119's for the past decade-plus.

 

[winmutt]

Well, its a 95 MY


Model Year 1995
Model E420
Engine 119975 12 019862
Transmission 722366 04 033123
Order Number 0 4 704 42927
Order Location UNITED STATES (USA)
Interior LEATHER - PALOMINO (264)
Paint 1 BLACK (040U)
Delivery Date 1994-08-03
Approx. Build Date 1994-07
240 OUTSIDE TEMPERATURE INDICATOR
241 FRONT SEAT LH ELECTRIC ADJUSTABLE WITH MEMORY
251 RADIO MB - EXQUISIT - USA
280 LEATHER STEERING WHEEL AND LEATHER GEAR SHIFT KNOB
340 ADDITIONAL 3RD STOP LAMP
412 ELECTRIC SLIDING ROOF WITH TILTING DEVICE
441 STEERING COLUMN, ELECTRICALLY ADJUSTABLE
461 INSTRUMENT WITH MILES IND. AND ENGLISH LEGEND
494 VERSION FOR USA
524 PAINTWORK - PRESERVATION
543 SUN VISOR WITH VANITY MIRROR, ILLUMINATED, LEFT AND RIGHT
551 ANTI-THEFT/ANTI-BREAK-IN WARNING SYSTEM
581 AUTOMATIC CLIMATE CONTROL
593 HEAT-INSULATING GLASS, ALL-AROUND, HEATED REAR WINDOW PANE (SINGLE-SHEET SAFETY GLASS), BAND FILTER
600 HEADLAMP WIPER/WASHER
611 COURTESY LAMPS FOR FRONT AND REAR DOORS, WITH V124 ALSO FOR CENTRAL DOORS
639 ELIMINATION OF FIRST-AID BOX AND WARNING TRIANGLE
668 MODE OF PACKING VE III WITH STYROPOR BUMPER RAILS
805 CHANGE OF MODEL YEAR, THE LAST FIGURE SHOWING THE NEW MODEL YEAR
810 SOUND SYSTEM
987 BATTERY ISOLATION SWITCH FOR SHIPMENT VEHICLES

 

[winmutt]

Congrats on the new E420, winmutt! Just curious, does it have ASR? Once you get the harness replaced, clear codes on all 6 powertrain modules and see what codes, if any, return. More info is at the De-Coding subforum sticky threads. If you plan to keep this car long term, and/or plan to own any newer MBs, shell out for a full SDS with HHT-Win support... it will make diagnostics easier with live data available. You still need the hand-held blinker box though, and a breakout box that allows using 4mm pins is sooo much easier than trying to figure out which socket to fit 1mm pins into. If you havent yet bought that KYB/vogtland kit, please reconsider. If its already shipped, cross your fingers and hope for the best.

The E300 project sounds fantastic. Would love to see build info on that. Some day Id still like to get my OM603.960 producing around 300hp. Its currently stock other than a 350SDL turbo (made pretty much no difference) and a maxed-out pump with 6mm elements, making maybe 200hp tops. EGTs and IATs are the current gating factor due to the undersized turbo, and I havent had time to mess with custom fabrication. Been busy with M119s for the past decade-plus.

Looks pretty basic, no ASR. What were your thoughts there?

Vogtland KYB no good? I had good look with my W123 vogtlands, but looking at the car as it sits I am wondering it already has lowering springs.

Had a slew of codes, only a few came back. Most concerning was pin #14 constantly on. I will start a thread after some more reasearch.

Really happy to see you still in it and contributing so much, you've always been a great help in the performance department, looking forward to your words of wisdom on my .034.

Started on the E300 ~ 5 years ago and kinda just fell out of the MB scene. Had bought a 535i, traded that in for a 67 bug when covid hit, wasn't really motivated till last 6 mos or so to get the e300 done.

 

[gsxr]

Looks pretty basic, no ASR. What were your thoughts there?

Oooo, Saddle interior! I really like Saddle... looks soooo much nicer than Palomino. I like ASR for better traction on wet/slippery surfaces, as the one-wheel-peel is annoying with the open diff. But it also changes some diagnostics as the ASR ETA is throttle by wire, while your non-ASR ETA is not. Different ABS & EA modules too. You can get limited-slip for lower (higher numerical) gears to cure the traction issues, but that is $$$$.

Vogtland KYB no good? I had good look with my W123 vogtlands, but looking at the car as it sits I am wondering it already has lowering springs.

Mostly KYB is of concern, their dampers tend to have a short lifespan. Then again some of the new Bilsteins are made offshore and also are of questionable kwality.

I'm not familiar with Vogtland but unless their spring package is V8-specific (which would surprise me), you may end up with the front end in the weeds, sitting on the stop buffers. Factory Sportline springs were absolutely the way to go, but those springs recently went NLA. If pulling the struts, change the mounts at the same time, and you'll likely need new stop buffers as they are almost always destroyed.

Had a slew of codes, only a few came back. Most concerning was pin #14 constantly on. I will start a thread after some more reasearch.

There's no module at pin #14. Double check the pin numbers... this is where a numbered breakout box is REALLY helpful. Details in the De-Coding stickies.

Really happy to see you still in it and contributing so much, youve always been a great help in the performance department, looking forward to your words of wisdom on my .034.

Started on the E300 ~ 5 years ago and kinda just fell out of the MB scene. Had bought a 535i, traded that in for a 67 bug when covid hit, wasnt really motivated till last 6 mos or so to get the e300 done.

You'll really like the 034 once you get it sorted out. We have two as daily drivers, 94 and 95. The M119 has a fairly steep learning curve, but the 15+ years of collective knowledge stored in this forum will get you through almost anything you'll come across. The 4.2L torque is similar to the OM603.96x but with a bunch more power up top.

 

[Djokovic0]

Nice car

 

[winmutt]

USPS delays, weather and daylight forced me to move inside but it begins.

 

[HcorMB]

Looks pretty basic, no ASR. What were your thoughts there?

Vogtland KYB no good? I had good look with my W123 vogtlands, but looking at the car as it sits I am wondering it already has lowering springs.

Had a slew of codes, only a few came back. Most concerning was pin #14 constantly on. I will start a thread after some more reasearch.

Really happy to see you still in it and contributing so much, youve always been a great help in the performance department, looking forward to your words of wisdom on my .034.

Started on the E300 ~ 5 years ago and kinda just fell out of the MB scene. Had bought a 535i, traded that in for a 67 bug when covid hit, wasnt really motivated till last 6 mos or so to get the e300 done.

congratulations on your E420, if you need a non asr throttle body i have one i bought from DAN @ RFC Alabama part#0001419325 bought it never installed because my car is ASR

 

[winmutt]

Well poop. My old wiring harness was dated 99. I went ahead and replaced it anyways. I no longer have codes on pin 4 but still no love with starting the engine. One thing I noted is that some times my tester light will come on full power when connecting to pin 4. Wondering if there is an ecu issue? What next? Some of the spark plug wires are missing the orange boot which doesnt sound good and there was an empty case/boxes of spark plug injectors. Time to start reading through the DIYs for no starts.

 

[winmutt]

congratulations on your E420, if you need a non asr throttle body i have one i bought from DAN @ RFC Alabama part#0001419325 bought it never installed because my car is ASR

If this comes up during diag, I'll certainly be in touch.

 

[gsxr]

I no longer have codes on pin 4 but still no love with starting the engine. One thing I noted is that some times my tester light will come on full power when connecting to pin 4. Wondering if there is an ecu issue? What next? Some of the spark plug wires are missing the orange boot which doesnt sound good and there was an empty case/boxes of spark plug injectors. Time to start reading through the DIYs for no starts.

I didn't realize it wouldn't start at all. First try spraying starting fluid down the ETA, 1-2 seconds is plenty. If it fires and dies, you aren't getting fuel. If it still doesn't fire at all, there's no spark.

Can you elaborate what you mean that some plug wires are missing the orange boot? Note there are 2 different boot styles, the early is a 90° type with metal casing around the plug. Late style is orange plastic. Not sure what a "spark plug injector" is.

Are there fault codes on any module, and are you getting the expected 1-blink for no fault codes if none are present? Especially on pins 4 (LH, fuel) and 17 (EZL, spark)?

 

[winmutt]

Applied the ether, definitely no spark. Sorry I just meant spark plugs.... I am not getting the 1 blink on pin 4. At first it was just dead after 2-3s holding button. Now the light is steady on for pin 4 without holding the button.

 

[gsxr]

Applied the ether, definitely no spark. Sorry I just meant spark plugs.... I am not getting the 1 blink on pin 4. At first it was just dead after 2-3s holding button. Now the light is steady on for pin 4 without holding the button.

OK - no spark. Next step is to confirm the EZL has power. Check for codes on pin #17. If there's no blink, it could indicate lack of power, or a bad EZL. Also check the resistance of the crank sensor (CKP) which plugs into the EZL, I think it should be 800-900 ohms? A dead CKP will translate into no spark / no start. A dead EZL is a possibility too, fortunately 4.2L EZL's are relatively cheap (compared to 5.0's).

 

[winmutt]

Would a low battery condition allow the car to turn over but not get readings on the diag port? I put my battery on a tender this morning and the diag port started behaving again. 1 blink for pins 4 and 17. Voltage to EZL and ohms on crank sensor were good (crank sensor was replaced by the shop I got it from). What next? Measure dwell? I dont have meter that can do that, but its probably past time I got something that does basic frequency readings. I also have a home made oscilloscope I could dig up.

 

[gsxr]

Would a low battery condition allow the car to turn over but not get readings on the diag port?

No, not unless perhaps it was extremely low (like, <10 volts)?

I put my battery on a tender this morning and the diag port started behaving again. 1 blink for pins 4 and 17. Voltage to EZL and ohms on crank sensor were good (crank sensor was replaced by the shop I got it from). What next? Measure dwell? I dont have meter that can do that, but its probably past time I got something that does basic frequency readings. I also have a home made oscilloscope I could dig up.

With no spark and 1 blink, try checking if both coils appear good. Wouldn't hurt to double check the spark plug wiring too but if mis-wired, usually it will at least cough & sputter. Again, I'm assuming there is *zero* spark when cranking, and there is power to the EZL.

After that - I'd swap the EZL next. Your 1994 E420 should use EZL 015-545-60-32. There are some on eBay under $100 (link). Buy from a seller that allows returns, ideally for 30 days so you have time to mess with it. Even if the problem turns out to be something else, it's good to have a spare EZL (and, a spare of all other modules too) for future troubleshooting. I keep the spare in the trunk in case of a freak failure on a road trip.

 

[Alphasud40]

If you find out there might be a power supply issue don’t overlook the Base module. Simple check to make sure fuses under base module cover are energized with the key in the run position.

 

[winmutt]

I checked the fuses for continuity, I did not think about power. On that note I have a slew on codes that have returned on BM: 8 10 12 13, which is fewer than before but there. Also now DM returns 17 and pin 7, 7

 

[gsxr]

I checked the fuses for continuity, I did not think about power. On that note I have a slew on codes that have returned on BM: 8 10 12 13, which is fewer than before but there. Also now DM returns 17 and pin 7, 7

You have the PDF file to translate these fault codes, right?

The EZL should have +12v on 2 separate pins with the key/ignition switch in position 2. The switched power comes through the BM/GM module. There's a tiny chance you have a BM/GM issue. This is where having known-good spare modules comes in handy for testing...

 

[winmutt]

Only 2 pins? I had power on 4 where #6 goes terminal 15 and 2 more hot on the other plug. I pulled all the modules looking for crusties and every thing looked clean. Idecided to open the GM and the component side looked clean but there was some non green but whitish crust on the back side. Sounds like I need to start looking for some spare modules. Hate sinking money/throwing parts into a car that has never run. I looked up the codes and none of them sounded good.

 

[winmutt]

I went ahead and ordered a BM/GM since I couldnt source one locally

 

[gsxr]

Only 2 pins? I had power on 4 where #6 goes terminal 15 and 2 more hot on the other plug.

Look at the FSM pinout explanation at the link below, PDF page 17 of 32. Should be voltage (Circuit 15) at pin 3 of connector A, and voltage (Circuit 30) at pin 8 of connector B.

https://www.500eboard.co/forums/misc/Manuals/Servicev3.2/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/LHIS/15-0020.pdf

I pulled all the modules looking for crusties and every thing looked clean. Idecided to open the GM and the component side looked clean but there was some non green but whitish crust on the back side. Sounds like I need to start looking for some spare modules. Hate sinking money/throwing parts into a car that has never run. I looked up the codes and none of them sounded good.

You can always re-sell the spare modules if you sell the car. And if you keep the car, you'll want the spare modules for future use. BTW, I assume you've pulled both caps to look for anything weird? Checked plug wires, connections, etc?

 

[gsxr]

Schematic is here:

https://www.500eboard.co/forums/misc/Manuals/Servicev3.2/W124/w124CD1/Program/ETM/24075002.pdf

 

[gsxr]

Light bulb moment. Let's back up a little. What did the PO tell you led up to the no-start condition? Did the engine just not start one morning after running perfectly the night before? Or had they performed some work and it didn't start afterwards? Etc.

 

[winmutt]

Schematic is here:

https://www.500eboard.co/forums/misc/Manuals/Servicev3.2/W124/w124CD1/Program/ETM/24075002.pdf

I had seen the schematic but missed 15-0020, which is key. Thanks!

 

[winmutt]

New to me BM came. Cleared up all the codes. Got a fuel pressure gauge and pressure is good. Went back to spark and found that spark was weak/erratic on closer inspection (SWMBO was turning the key and pushing the buttons this time). Pulled the distributor caps and ohhh what a mess. New caps/rotors/cables/plugs enroute. Really surprised at how much vapor was in there, car has been sitting inside for a few weeks now.

 

[winmutt]

Once again, never trust the mechanic that came before you and couldn't figure it out.

 

[gsxr]

Even with those messy caps, the engine should have at least coughed & sputtered, if not fired and ran badly. You can wipe them clean and do further testing. Also pull the insulators and inspect the back side for liquid (no, it isn't water)... search the forum for more info. Add vent slots to your new caps, click here for details.

I assume you know to only use NON-resistor plugs. Beru wire sets (link) are generally recommended as the lengths are correct, and the wires are less fragile than Bosch.

 

[winmutt]

It would cough and sputter.... sometimes. I was able to drive it up on the trailer and off, so perhaps I didn't do good job of clarifying that. Since it has come to the house, I have gotten barely more than a sputter. I did order the right plugs. New to me EZL is on the way as well. I did go with all Bremi parts for the rest of it, for better or for worse. We can discuss the quality of said parts when they arrive

 

[Alphasud40]

New to me BM came. Cleared up all the codes. Got a fuel pressure gauge and pressure is good. Went back to spark and found that spark was weak/erratic on closer inspection (SWMBO was turning the key and pushing the buttons this time). Pulled the distributor caps and ohhh what a mess. New caps/rotors/cables/plugs enroute. Really surprised at how much vapor was in there, car has been sitting inside for a few weeks now.

Those caps look a lot better than mine did. I was able to drive mine until a miss developed after warm-up. The saga continues

 

[luckymike]

Those caps look a lot better than mine did. I was able to drive mine until a miss developed after warm-up. The saga continues

I suggest pulling the spark plug covers off and, in the dark, observing the spark plug wires while the car is missing. Putting it in drive might accentuate the problem (have an assistant hold the brake pedal or be very sure of your parking brake). I discovered two wires had intermittent sparks jumping to ground. I could also see flashes along/inside a couple of the wires.

 

[winmutt]

I suggest pulling the spark plug covers off and, in the dark, observing the spark plug wires while the car is missing. Putting it in drive might accentuate the problem (have an assistant hold the brake pedal or be very sure of your parking brake). I discovered two wires had intermittent sparks jumping to ground. I could also see flashes along/inside a couple of the wires.

This was essentially what I did. The first spark was strong and then it was weak or skipped.

 

[winmutt]

I have to say I'm impressed. Next day shipping from rock auto.

 

[winmutt]

I noticed behind the rotor on the left bank had a screw loose.... couldn't find the rest of it but when I pulled the cap something fell out and down, I assumed it was a bolt on the cap, but now that I know what to look for....

 

[winmutt]

Is uro my only option for the adapter?

 

[a777fan]

I’d look for a used original one first.

Odd how yours failed. I’ll be curious to see if anyone else has seen anything like that before.

 

[Alphasud40]

Looks like someone forgot to tighten one of the rotor screws and it eventually rubbed through the shield, caught and then proceeded to break the ear off.

 

[TerryA]

Is uro my only option for the adapter?

That bracket should still be available from Mercedes. I think? If so buy from MB along w/ the insulator.

 

[winmutt]

sheward had one in his stash and was nice enough to part with it. Funny thing is that I have been at his house before for some other mb parts and neither of us can remember why. Waiting on cam shaft seals and then I'm going to get it all back together.

 

[Gatorblue92]

I noticed behind the rotor on the left bank had a screw loose.... couldnt find the rest of it but when I pulled the cap something fell out and down, I assumed it was a bolt on the cap, but now that I know what to look for....
View attachment 161484View attachment 161485

I’ve come across this once before on a prior 400E. In my case the ear was broken off by a previous owner and i discovered it when I replaced the rotors.

 

[winmutt]

As much as I want these to fit, I guess I'll have to find an alternative.

 

[gsxr]

275's on an 034? Sure, they'll "fit", just don't hit any bumps... ever. Multiple fanbois on other forums will tell you how they made them fit no prob.

 

[winmutt]

Almost there. Half of the spark plugs weren't tightened at all.

 

[winmutt]

It's alive!!!!

 

[winmutt]

After warming up and driving it around the neighborhood it burned off a good amount of oil. I guess the valve seals needed to reseat/lube up. Car idles and runs super smooth, however it's gutless and it seems there is no timing/valve advance. I did gap the plugs to 0.8 and then I read a post from Dave saying to gap them to 1.0? Besides a plugged cat, what else should I be looking at?

 

[gsxr]

Check for vacuum at the EZL hose. Plug gap won't affect power. Testing intake cam advance is difficult without SDS...

 

[winmutt]

Of course I picked up some wheels before it was even running.

 

[winmutt]

Check for vacuum at the EZL hose. Plug gap wont affect power. Testing intake cam advance is difficult without SDS...

~20in dropped to 0 under rpm

 

[winmutt]

I'm reading that at wot the vacuum pressure should still be north of 0 and that I should suspect the cats Intake manifold vacuum | M119 Engine

No new codes on pins 4 and 17 so that's good.

 

[winmutt]

Well that's unique. No idea how they actually got them on, I had to cut one off.




So what's the secret for separating the resonator from the cat? The compression bolts came off easy enough but I can't separate the flanges. I have used a various assortment of leverages, percussive maintenance tools, left right torsional movements from the muffler and a few expletives all to no avail.

 

[gsxr]

So whats the secret for separating the resonator from the cat? The compression bolts came off easy enough but I cant separate the flanges. I have used a various assortment of leverages, percussive maintenance tools, left right torsional movements from the muffler and a few expletives all to no avail.

It is VERY difficult to separate those without breaking the catalyst pipe... which is NLA... and extremely difficult to find a good used one.

Don't remove the resonator unless absolutely necessary. Destructive methods can be used if the resonator/muffler is being replaced with new OEM, but whatever you do, make sure the catalyst pipes are not damaged. A new graphite seal and lots of anti-seize when assembling can delay or prevent the corrosion from fusing the pipes together.

If you want to check for a bad cat, you're doing it wrong. Remove the crossover pipe up front and go for a test drive. And poke an endoscope in fro the FRONT of the cats if you have one.