OWNER - Jelmer

[Jelmer]

If my car would behave like that, I would have never done the electric fan conversion.

First I'm going to change the fuel pumps and coils, see if that makes any difference in engine behavior. After that it's back to this issue. I've set my electrical fans to kick in earlier - too early, even, and that keeps everything in check. Hopefully it'll be > 20C here the next few days, so I can really fiddle with the temp settings, and test everything with the AC on full cold blast when parked.

 

[bing]

Here are a few photos taken of my car tonight, around 9PM Central time. Ambient temp was 18C (64F).

First, en route (45 MPH road) to pick up my son at church youth group. Next, sitting at a stop light for a couple of minutes. Lastly, sitting for 5+ minutes in the parking lot of the church, idling with the parking brake on.

You can see that my car never gets beyond (indicated) 92C or so. The A/C was NOT on (would need to add 2-3 degrees if it was on).

The photo names are also time-stamped...

To my point .. even after idling 5+ minutes in moderate temps, the car never got above 92C or so... and actually cooled back down a few degrees on its own.

Cheers,
Gerry

Attached Thumbnails



GVZ, now you're rubbing it in !

Jelmer, don't let him leave town till he sorts this out for you

 

[gsxr]

Jelmer, I was able to replicate your conditions today. Approx 20C/70F ambients, cruising at a steady 50mph (80kph), AC on max. Engine temp remained a steady 88°C, as seen in attached photo, as long as the road was flat. Viscous fan clutch is good and roars when engine is revved. Twin auxiliary electric fans were not running much, if at all, because refrigerant pressure was too low (it's a function of ambient temp, and 70F/20C isn't warm enough to trigger them).

Interestingly, since the auxiliary fans were not running on low speed, when I parked the car for 10 minutes and left the AC on max, the coolant temp gradually increased to 107C which triggered the auxiliary fans on high speed. This immediately dropped the engine temp back to 100C (the infamous unmarked line) and the fans shut off within 1-2 minutes. During normal summer operation (80-100F ambients), the fans run on low pretty much any time the AC is on, and the engine temps rarely crack 100C. It was interesting to observe the reaction in "moderate" weather.

 

[Jelmer]

Hmm, I don't really know what conclusions to draw from that, Dave. Then again, I'm totally flabbergasted and have no idea what's going on anyway.

I did notice that my aux fans didn't switch on very often, but they DO switch on eventually. And turn the right way. Now that's I've changed the fan kick-in temperature, everything looks better. But I can't believe these cars need extra fans to keep 'em cool when simply cruising at low ambient temperatures.

Yesterday it was 23C here, and I drove the same speed, but with A/C on full (cold) blast - temp gauge only went slightly above the level in your photo.

I did some temp checking with a IR thermometer: everything seems fine!
After taking the photo's: http://youtu.be/sSskdlBDz8k

I'm confused. Maybe t'wis a fluke. Hah.

 

[500AMM]

Jelmer - maybe you have a bad temp gauge. (not the aux reader, but the cluster gauge)

Try to borrow another one you know works well and hook up for testing.

 

[gerryvz]

I would not be alarmed at the temp indicated in the first photo, at an outside/ambient temp of 23+ F, if sitting for a couple of minutes in a parking lot after driving the car.

 

[gsxr]

Jelmer, if your primary Summit electric fans were not running AND the twin auxiliary factory fans were also not running... this may explain what you saw. The ram air effect is not enough to cool the engine with zero fan assistance. See if you can verify if your primary fans were engaged... if they were, that should have been plenty to bring the coolant temp down.

Highly unlikely your dash gauge is bad, but you can bench test if you're handy with a VOM and have a resistor assortment.

 

[Jelmer]

Gerry, the temp in these pictures was after standing still for a bit with my electrical fans at full power (i.e., causing a small hurricane).

Maybe you are right, Dave, and it's simply a matter of my fans not engaging for one reason or another. Might be the thermometer isn't jammed into the radiator enough, or it's catching too much wind and cooling down from it. I'll jam it in a bit more, soon, somehow close it from the front, that should help. To be continued....

 

[gsxr]

Any chance you can rig up a temporary light near the dash that turn on when the fans are running? That way you'd know for sure what's going on!

The far right indicator lamp position on the instrument cluster may be empty on Euro-spec cars (this is the location of the "Check Engine" lights on USA cars)... if available, this would make a handy location for your test light.

 

[DW SD]

Another thought for calibration. How about grounding the temp sensor and dropping it into a pot of boiling water with the connector attached (of course). If you have your old sensor and it behaved the same, use that one.
It should read right at the 100C mark!
I've used this method for calibration in the past, too.

As for the data you colletected.... I'd expect your gauge to read similar to the temp of the outlet hose to the radiator. does that reflect the 87.7C temp? How close together (in time) are the temperature samples? From where did you pull the 94.5C?

Doug

 

[gsxr]

The gauge reading should be compared to a reading as close as possible to the temp sender, which is at the very front of the intake manifold; it's the only 1-pin sensor up there. (The 2-pin is for HVAC / fans, 4-pin is for LH/EZL computers.)

 

[Jelmer]

Good point about the check-engine light, I think I'll see if I can use that! While I'm at it, I might also change the annoying alarm switch above the blower controls to a "force full speed" button, so I can see if it makes any difference! Nice project

As stated before, both the dash gauge sensor and the engine managment sensor have been changed recently, so I can pretty much rule them out. My dash gauge sticks firmly at the well-known 85C mark in normal conditions, and since I have a new thermostat, I think I can safely say that my dash gauge is accurate. Last summer we also managed to confirm that the horizontal line is indeed 100C (annoyingly, proving Dave right )

All photo's were taken within a minute or so.

I also found the 94C odd, I took that very near the hose, at the top of the radiator.

I'll check the temp around the temp sensor next time. Silly I forgot doing that ...

 

[gerryvz]

A cope of photos taken today with AC on, while shaking down my rear suspension work....

 

[bing]

Meh !! I would pick on that oil pressure :fish:

 

[Jelmer]

Meh !! I would pick on that oil pressure :fish:

Hey, I was just about to note that that also makes me feel about about my low oil pressure! With me it's at exactly the same level!

I've got my new coils and fuel pumps on my desk here, hoping to install them soon. After that I'll change the alarm wiring so I can control my fans. We'll see what happens But first I really need to fix the stumbling issue, because that oil gauge is doing a little happy dance when the engine is very hot.

 

[gerryvz]

Meh !! I would pick on that oil pressure :fish:

I've got a new oil pressure sender ordered & coming this week. That's all it is. I had even lower indicated pressure on my M104 a few months back and a new sender smartly fixed that. Unfortunately that exhausted my stock of spare senders (104 & 119 use same sender) so had to replenish...

If that's your only nit, I'm good with that!

 

[bing]

Didn't think it was that bad considering the temperature, engine/ambient. I guess 1.5bar is healthier !?

 

[gerryvz]

A weak/bad sender is going to under-indicate the correct pressure by anywhere from 0.5-2 bar. The main thing I am concerned about is the indicator snapping up to the "3" bar mark upon application of the throttle pedal. Although my gauge [still] does this, it's not as smart of a snap as I'd like to see.

Most definitely, the hotter the engine and/or ambient temperatures, the lower the pressure reading at idle. My indicator gets down to the 0.5-0.75 bar mark on extremely hot days. My wife's 104 got down to the 0 level at idle on a hot day. With a new sender, her 104 never gets below 1.5 bar even on the hottest days.

By the way, I am 100% comfortable with any reading above 0.75 bar at idle. I just want to see an extremely rapid flick up to the 3-bar mark when I hit the gas.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Jelmer]

Hmmm. I'm thinking this is a good candidate to replace, then. Though I thought it already had been replaced a while back, but might be that I've got the level and pressure senders confused.

 

[gerryvz]

The level sender is in the side of the oil pan. The pressure sender is in the bottom of the oil filter canister flange.

 

[gsxr]

BTW - that indicated 1.0 bar hot oil pressure appears to be with the transmission in gear, not in park/neutral. The reading will be lower in gear. On a 94F day, with engine at 100C, 1.0 bar (in gear, at 500 rpm) is nothing to worry about. I am curious what will happen when Gerry gets the new pressure sensor installed though.

 

[gerryvz]

Correct, both photos were taken with the transmission in gear. I'll certainly follow up once I get the new sender installed with any changes in behaviour.

 

[Jelmer]

Same with me. In neutral it's sightly above 1.0, in gear, while stopped, it can be slightly below. Keep us updated, Gerry. If it changes after the sender, I'll change it too

 

[gerryvz]

Correct, both photos were taken with the transmission in gear. I'll certainly follow up once I get the new sender installed with any changes in behaviour.

This is how I roll in the M117 temp-wise on an average spring day....

 

[bing]

Spring day, ha! That's a heatwave for us Euro folks.

Btw, love the bright red needles. I think you refurbished these, right ? Or are they still originals?

 

[gerryvz]

No, I refirb'd the needles about 7-8 years ago using Testor's model paint. It's not quite an exact match for the original, but close enough. The Testor's is a bit more "orangy" than the yellowish-orange factory paint. But hey, my Testor's hasn't faded....

 

[Jelmer]

Small update. I went to Essen for 195910, (http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?4175-Any-one-Near-Essen-Dortmund) to mess around with a nice S500 L. Since all my countrymen are either celebrating or on a holiday, I thought the roads would be empty enough to have some fun.

And so they were.

Despite the crappy paint on my Rials, I love them. I ab-so-lute-ly love them. Especially at higher speeds, it feels so much more secure. Less wobbling, no more delay in steering, all in all a very pleasant experience. They aren't as well suited or driving days on end through towns with bad roads, of course.

Another something I found out concerns the cooling system. I'm not leaking any coolant, which is great, but my fan system does require some tweaking.
It seems the "ram air" effect isn't enough to cool down an already hot engine (no, Dave, you don't get to say "I told you so"!) at lower speeds - i.e. < 150km/h. The temperature doesn't rise, but doesn't go down, either. At higher speeds, however, the rushing air *is* enough! Even at 250km/h (245 on gps) it managed to stay cool.

However: if the AC system is switched on, it appears it isn't enough (well, maybe at 250, but not below), and the whole system NEEDS some help via an active fan. So, my conclusions are:

- My cooling system is working. No leaks, a properly working waterpump, etc
- My engine isn't messed up in a way that it burns too much fuel; I would have noticed that during acceleration.
- A fan is required to help cooling at lower speeds
- ... But not at high speeds (viscous fan would turn too fast and wouldn't engage anyway)
- Having AC on messes the cooling system up. Makes sense: instead of "cool" ambient air entering the radiator, it now gets the already heated air from the AC radiator.
- I think the thermostat of the fan system gets too much driving wind, making it not engage while driving

So, my plans:
- I want to hook up my old "alarm" button to the "force 100%" setting of the fan - just in case.
- I'll hook up the LED inside said button to the fan system. I'm pretty sure they have never ever engaged while driving, this way I can test that!
- I think I'll hook up the AC trigger wire, as well (the fan controller supports this, just have to figure out where to get an "AC compressor working" signal )

All in all, I'm a happy little camper, and I love my car!

 

[gsxr]

Excellent news, Jelmer. I'm envious of your "lower speeds" at 150kph/95mph. That's our high speeds here in the silly 'States.

 

[gerryvz]

I think you are fine, Jelmer. I really do.

Glad to see you reached the same conclusion I did about your car's cooling system, about a week ago.

 

[gsxr]

Well, sort of. The liquid flow portion is likely fine. However the airflow portion of the cooling system needs some work.

 

[bing]

Well, sort of. The liquid flow portion is likely fine. However the airflow portion of the cooling system needs some work.

Dave, leave him for now. Otherwise he'll take back what he just said today

All in all, I'm a happy little camper, and I love my car!

He's busy on the autobahn comparing speeds on his GPS and ramming air :grin::grin:

Oh..and so much for being nationalistic, he could'nt even be bothered to go to Dam Square and wave flags at their new KING .. Typical 036 addict !

 

[gsxr]

He's busy on the autobahn comparing speeds on his GPS and ramming air :grin::grin:

.. Typical 036 addict !

I know. He likes to rub that in, lol.

 

[195910]

If only we're allowed to import older cars.. then Jelmer will have to ship his car together with that S-class J/K
She is beautiful Jelmer!

 

[Jelmer]

I know. He likes to rub that in, lol.

Well, I'm sorry! It's just that these cars feel the best when driven properly - at 200km/h+.

Oh, darn. I did it again...

If only we're allowed to import older cars.. then Jelmer will have to ship his car together with that S-class J/K

Heeellll no! I'll take you on a trip into Germany if you ever fly over, though

 

[Evo II]

Re: Owner - JelmerBaas

If I'm not wrong, it's a Becker Cascade Pro, the same I have in my car.

http://www.mybecker.com/enUK/Automotive ... +7941.html

In my opinion, all Becker units have a simple and elegant design that fits perfectly in almost every Mercedes, no matter what year. And the sound is awesome.

I tried to install that radio, with the ipod input and a new speakers (same size than the original ones) and the people of mercedes told me that I have to change every radio cable and it will be a full mes. Anyone can tell me if that is right ?

 

[gsxr]

Re: Owner - JelmerBaas

I tried to install that radio, with the ipod input and a new speakers (same size than the original ones) and the people of mercedes told me that I have to change every radio cable and it will be a full mes. Anyone can tell me if that is right ?

Depends what radio your car came with. 1991-1993 model year USA-spec cars came with Becker 1432 head uits, and these need to have the entire radio system replaced (i.e., every cable) if you want to change to an aftermarket head unit.

The 1994-up USA cars with Becker 1492 are plug & play, easy to upgrade. Euro cars had different systems available, so I'm not sure, you'd need to post a photo of your factory head unit.

 

[Jelmer]

Re: Owner - Jelmer

Update time!

The earlier mentioned heat issues are more-or-less solved. I've jammed the thermostat further into the radiator, meaning it'll respond quicker. I've covered that area with aluminum foil (only a test - will solve this better later on) so the air being rammed into the front while driving doesn't cool the thermostat anymore, and to top it off: I've put thermal grease around the thermostat, making it respond even quicker and more reliable. I'm still pretty sure I have other issues, and I still believe that my water pump needs to be changed - even with fans at full speed *and* with the aux fans blazing, the engine temperature didn't drop very much. It'll never get back to 85-90C. Oh, well, I'm just happy it stays below 100C, even with the AC on.

As noted before, my fuel pumps and my coils have been changed. Everything seems to sound a bit more smooth. Quite happy with it.

The car has also visited the paint shop. There was one panel where the paint was being chipped away steadily, there was a tiny bit of rust in the passenger door, and there was some rust in the trunk, where the plastic spare wheel cover constantly slides over the paint. The panel is repainted, the rust was treated (although it was a bigger issue than we thought) and the trunk was completely repainted, receiving an extra protection layer and some plastic strips to keep the plastic panel from damaging the paint.

I've also received a set of 15mm spacers, which were installed yesterday. The Rials are NOT to be used with OEM bolts, their thread only connects two to 2.5 turns. That's about 5mm. Eek. So with spacers it wouldn't fit at all. I've finally found a set of bolts that have 60mm(!!!) thread, they get to a full cm into the wheel hubs, I think. Feels pretty strong and steady. Best of all: I now have the look I wanted - the wheels are slightly pushed to the outside, but not to an extreme amount. I like the subtle "hmmm, something is different" feeling the current stance gives

Motivated by Arnt's air-temp-sensor thread, I've ordered a new sensor together with a new clip (€11,33 + €19,05 - sorry Arnt ), we'll see if that yields another improvement. I still have the slight surging, though it isn't annoying at all.

So much for the good news. The bad news is that there are - yet again - some issues in need of treatment. Like the leaking head gaskets, the blower motor and some minor misc things. With my second child only a month away, my priorities are shifting a bit. I would like a car that seats five. I want a car that I can rely on. And most importantly: I need to save some money. I'm pretty I have the dubious honor of having the most expensive .036 here. Oh, and even more-most-imporantly-ish: I don't think it's right to use a car this beautiful, with such a history, that's so rare, as a daily driver to drive 18km to work and back. It's nearly a museum piece!

Anyway, to cut a long story short - she's (yes, my car is a she!) going into storage. There's no way in hell I'll let this car go, so it's temporary. About 2-3 years. I have the incredible luck that my wife feels the same way - she loves the car and wouldn't want to part with it. Thankfully.

The shop that did most of the large jobs recently rented a new building, and will turn it into a car storage. It's dry, it's safe, it has smoke detectors, fire-resistant walls, alarm systems and best of all it's 100m away from the shop, meaning I can even work on the car myself in winter. I can also come get it every time I want (as long as it's insured and registered), so I'll be sure to pick it up next summer again for some tours

The idea is to make sure the car is in perfect condition in three years. I'll have every part with a bit wear repainted, leather treated, engine taken apart (both head gaskets replaced, oil+water pump replaced, oil tubes replaced, etc etc), so I'm already saving up for that moment.

So, in two months, it's bye 500E, and hello Volvo V40 1.6 Diesel. Nice car, just ... different.

I won't stop being active on this forum, though. Reading, learning, until I get my car back and I can finally start doing simply tasks myself without being scared I can't get to work the next day.


Attached are some photo's I shot today. Hope you'll like 'em as much as I do. (No photoshopping done, just re-sized them).

 

[DW SD]

When the car comes out of mothballs, may I suggest you buy and install an adjustable controller for the electric cooling fan? I assume the "jamming" part about the thermostat is for the aftermarket fan controller probe? And you are creating some sort of air block with AL foil for the temperature probe?
something like this: http://www.spalusa.com/store/Main.aspx?html=pwmv3 The temperature settings are fully adjustable, including with respect to low speed and high speed. Then you won't have to jury - rig the temperature probe?

Curious, does rust "treatment" mean it was not entirely removed?

congratulations on the 2nd child! GREAT news!

Doug

 

[DerFuror]

Re: Owner - Jelmer

I would like a car that seats five.

Get a standard W124 rear bench seat bottom & seat belt assembly matching your interior. Install when necessary .

Instant 5-passenger E500E car.

 

[gsxr]

+1 with Derf's suggestion on the 5-seat conversion.

I anxiously await Jelmer's DIY head-gasket replacement thread! Glad to hear you're not selling it.

 

[Jelmer]

Doug, the fans Christian and I used have their own fan speed controller. You can set the kick-in temperature on the controller, and if reached they'll start at 60% of their max speed and slowly accelerate if the temperature gets higher. The controller gets its temperature information from an external thermostat (or temperature sensor), which is stuffed into the radiator. If it doesn't make proper contact it responds too slowly to temperature changes, and if it gets much wind it's unreliable. Though ugly, the aluminum foil does the job. See http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?2834-E500E-Electric-Fan-conversion-thread for more info.

The rest was completely removed, poor choice of words on my part.

Get a standard W124 rear bench seat bottom & seat belt assembly matching your interior. Install when necessary .

Not on this car The plan is to keep this one around as a weekend driver, so we'll have two cars with five seats, and one with four

Edit:

I anxiously await Jelmer's DIY head-gasket replacement thread!

LMAO, yeah, sounds like a good first job to start with....

 

[195910]

Wait Wait Wait...your not putting it into storage now ?! enjoy it this summer..or at least till a month from today :|
Does not sound like a bad Idea, you mean to store it for 3 years when it will be registered as classic car in NL ? is it 25 years in NL ? Germany is 30 years.

 

[Jelmer]

Three weeks of service left, and then we got presented with a lot of smoke in the cabin. The fuse of the electrical fans has MOLTEN. The wires were blazing hot. No idea what happens, but I heard a weird sound after I forced the aux fans to full setting; I'm guessing one of the two fans has jammed somehow.

I miiiight check out the real reason, but for now I can't be bothered. I disconnected the wire, installed my CH92 again, and left the car with the battery disconnected. Three. More. Weeks. Damn.

 

[Christian_K]

So the Flex a lite are broken now after you switched on the Aux fans? Thats weird. Also that the fuse has completely molten is very bad. Actually it should have just melt the little wire in the fuse and then the fans should simply have stopped working. Something is odd there.

 

[TerryA]

Jelmer,

When I purchased my car the PO had added a rear seat cushion made of matching black leather. It fit right over the rear wood counsel.

Anyway it can be easily be installed or removed in minutes.

He also added the center seat belt. The pad over the counsel easily accommodates kids or small
people. I used for a while for my grandsons when they under age 12 or so.

I will send you a photo ASAP.

On another matter be sure to put some fuel stablizer in your fuel tank before you put your car in storage. It could save you a lot of grief when you put it back on the road.

Please keep us updated on your progress.

 

[gsxr]

Three weeks of service left, and then we got presented with a lot of smoke in the cabin. The fuse of the electrical fans has MOLTEN. The wires were blazing hot. No idea what happens, but I heard a weird sound after I forced the aux fans to full setting; I'm guessing one of the two fans has jammed somehow.

YIKES! What size fuse did you have in the fuse holder? Christian is correct, it never should have melted like that. VERY odd.

I wonder if your fuse holder was under-sized for the current draw. Maybe step up to a larger (i.e. "maxi") fuse holder, if you can get a maxi fuse in a low enough rating (30A?).

 

[Jelmer]

I might have written this down in a bad way. I turned the aux fans on afterwards, when I got home, to get rid of the 100C+ temp gauge.

The system went haywire on the freeway, while doing 100km/h in proper temperatures, so they (the fans) weren't at maximum setting (quite possibly they were off). First the missus smelled it, called it out, and then we saw smoke entering the cabin. Needless to say, I pulled over immediately, switched off the engine (which I hate doing while hot) and popped the hood. I can't remember if the fans were on or not at that time - they are supposed to stay on for a short while after killing the ignition.

This might have been a coincidence, caused by simply running the fans very long on these tiny fuses (or simply a bad connection). Though, these fans draw "only" 14-22Amps and the fuse-holder came with them.

Terry: thanks for the tips, but the decision has already been made. I'll get my fancy Volvo V40 in three weeks (yes, I'm going for the full I'm-a-dad-and-my-fun-is-over look ).

 

[johan h]

I love this colourcombination! Rauchsilber is so nice and i had it on my 300E. It is a greatfull colour since it allways looks clean. And then with your rims! I love it and keep up the good work Jelmer! (Y)

 

[gerryvz]

So Jelmer .... any news of mini-Jelmers arriving in the past 8 days ... ?

 

[Jelmer]

Thanks, Johan You'll see it next time in real life, right? Next year!

And no, Gerry. Seems mini-Jelmer2 is as stubborn as myself ;( Friday is the last day he can come on his own (i.e., two weeks late), hopefully before then.