Stern Garage Supercharger teaser

[anderzen]

Hi All,

Saw this just now and figured may be of interest to others here. Stern Garage (awesome company you should check out if you haven’t) is developing a supercharger for the m119 and teased this render on their Instagram.


Thoughts?

They also are one of few who currently produce a supercharger for NA m113 also and have some very cool builds and content in general.

- ANDERZÉN

 

[gsxr]

I've been wanting to do this for a long time, just waiting for someone to properly engineer a kit. The mechanicals are (sort of) easy, other than possibly forcing an electric fan conversion - I don't know if the blower drive will fit with the mechanical fan. A proper (W211 factory-type) fan is $$$$ and not a simple retrofit.

The big question is how they will integrate aftermarket ECU with factory components, without losing traction control. IMO, traction control is a requirement with 500hp+. Sure, you want a switch to disable it for hooning, but it's not a good idea to drive on the street without that safety net. Also will be interesting to see if the aftermarket ECU can use the factory knock sensors to control timing on each cylinder individually, like the EZL.

I expect the pricetag to be somewhere in five figures, btw.

 

[anderzen]

Agreed on all fronts you point out and also places of curiosity for me. I wish more companies would dive in to develop well thought out 'plug n' play' ECU and harness options for this chassis and other MB's. I know there are a few out there that can work, but nothing like what platforms with more focus get from the aftermarket.

 

[duuder]

They work on a few e500e so there's hope this is definitely up my alley

 

[anderzen]

exactly... they have a very methodical and knowledgeable workflow in all things I've seen from them, so I have confidence they will release this with proper supporting systems/mod options. They have some awesome videos btw on YouTube showing breakdowns of different m119's and all sorts of fascinating engine details and builds, in German, but I don't mind subtitles or just piecing together through visual communication.

 

[ArauzMotoring]

Nice!! I recall someone running some Ford V8 coil packs to run a custom standalone ECU in a 500SL. Excited to see how much HP this upgrade yields

 

[duuder]

If this did a minimum of 80hp, I'd be a happy about that

 

[gsxr]

Given the likely steep pricetag and substantial mods required, it better produce at least ~30% gains (+100hp / 420hp) if not closer to +50% (+150hp / 475hp). Should be possible with fancy aftermarket ECU control, intercooling and stock compression ratio.

 

[emerydc8]

Out of curiosity, did the three M119 twin turbos that ran in Le Mans have stock internals? How different was the race engine itself compared to the pedestrian M119?

 

[Markus-MD]

I saw only virtuell Drawings .i think ist only a CAD study .Waterpump elektr.?? And how many Orig Fetischist want build and can buy this??
Never forgot 500e "I am Lovin that"" Too much. Drove as an 30 years old Car. Id like the idee off Compressor M119 . but for 6-10Tsd Grands and 100ps the Air is in my Opinion very thin.
I like the SG Garage nice common people.Wish luke and good bless our own great cars. Or what ever .have all a nice Weekend

 

[gsxr]

Out of curiosity, did the three M119 twin turbos that ran in Le Mans have stock internals? How different was the race engine itself compared to the pedestrian M119?

I'm sure very little inside was stock. Pretty sure it was a mostly stock engine block, but the rest, probably bespoke unobtanium...

 

[emerydc8]

Wouldn't it be interesting to see what was done to the engine as far as what the engineers felt needed to be beefed up or changed in order to withstand that kind of horsepower for that kind of time.--and with no significant wear after the race.

 

[nic520]

SG is currently also working on a distributor-free ignition for the M119 without losing the other LH system, if I understood correctly.
They offer a few very nice special parts for the M119. I bought a set of dash 10 connectors for the oilfilterhousing. They adopt to the original connector and allow to mount any dash 10 oilcooler.
That makes things a lot easier when wanting an oilcooler.
Set was roughly around 160 USD (in Germany).
Nic

 

[nic520]

this is the technical info on the C11 M119 HL („Hohe Leistung“= High Power)

 

[Uberwagon]

I'm sure very little inside was stock. Pretty sure it was a mostly stock engine block, but the rest, probably bespoke unobtanium...

I have a Twin Turbo M117 engine that was built by Kurt Lotterschmidt in the garage at home. I was intending to use it in a 560SEL but now simply don’t have the time or money to complete what I wanted. It came from a Sauber C8 I was told.

Dave!

 

[anderzen]

Another update, if you didn’t already think the m119 was beautiful… you do now

 

[sheward]

If someone could make this work while retaining all the features that make an 036/034 so wonderful there is no telling how much $ I might part with.

 

[albdentist]

Thought I’d share this regarding the M119 in race trim..

 

[gsxr]

Thought I’d share this regarding the M119 in race trim..

More head bolts, and gear-driven cams... whoa.

 

[duuder]

Gonna cost 21k euro

 

[JCM1]

I'm sure very little inside was stock. Pretty sure it was a mostly stock engine block, but the rest, probably bespoke unobtanium...

A few views to the set up and parts!

 

[anderzen]

Also... trans capability or what trans do you guys think they will use?

 

[duuder]

Also... trans capability or what trans do you guys think they will use?

Their own, they have a 5G Tronic transmission for 10k euro

 

[jnes]

Here is more details which you may already know..

M119 Eaton TVS R2650 Kompressor Umbausatz

Hiermit bieten wir Ihnen die Möglichkeit Ihrem M119 Motor durch unseren Kompressor Umbausatz eine ordentliche Mehrleistung zu verpassen. Hier die einzelnen Komponenten: Eaton TVS R2650 lader mit speziellem Hals CNC gefrästes Aluminium-Saugrohr mit vier Laminova Kühlkernen CNC gefräste Halter für...

stern-garage-shop.com

A bit odd that they don't tell anything power/torque gains. I believe that info the kit would sell a bit more (?)
They have more nice products available, such as ITB's and electric fans for viscous clutch fans.

 

[gsxr]

A bit odd that they don't tell anything power/torque gains. I believe that info the kit would sell a bit more (?)
They have more nice products available, such as ITB's and electric fans for viscous clutch fans.

Sure seems like they haven't actually completed a build yet, and it's still in the R&D phase. If one was built, there should be photos of the kit installed in a car, along with at least power gain data if not full dyno graphs.

 

[anderzen]

yea... same thought I had. Seems like the listed price is going towards funding... I had imagined the price point between 10-15k, 21k is crazy

 

[gsxr]

I had imagined the price point between 10-15k, 21k is crazy

At least with the weak Euro / strong dollar it's only $22k USD, for now. A year ago, €21k would have been $25k USD...

 

[anderzen]

How good could you build an na m119 or twin/single turbo for that kind of money though, just comparatively? I think even with 10-12k I could build a pretty good turbo kit with proper supporting mods.

I can’t remember if pricing they have reflects install on things that like also? Or is it just 21k for kit and you go from there…
I love Stern Garage like I said throughout and their the only ones doing all this anyway, so more power to them, but hopefully the cost can come down eventually.

 

[nic520]

As listed, the kit provides:
- supercharger
- intakemanifold with integrated cooling abilities [Admin edit: Liquid-to-air intercooler, similar to W211 E55 design]
- crankshaft pulley
- bracket for other pulleys

These are all the listed parts. Other items like 6 litres and engine management (ignition and fuel injection) are optional. It is not street legal, of course.

We know that the compression ratio is essential, as well as ignition and fuel to make the whole thing work. If the LH could be modified, this would be a basis for a lot of conversions at much lower costs. It is interesting, but I doubt that there will be a lot of european customers.

 

[Rouven036]

Guys don't underestimate the manufacturing cost for this and 22k sounds about right for me for only the sc kit.
It depends greatly on potential sales volume which is for this engine just not the case.
Machine work and the raw material is a high cost factor.
I paid for the material & machining of my own designed intake manifold for the M117 9K Euro alone (and this through a family friend owning the business) less intercooler core etc.
I did the design myself so it cost only time however Rafael has an employe who does the drawing and he needs to be paid too.
You can make it cheaper yourself sure but as long you can't draw it and/or cnc it - by far not in that quality level.

 

[500AMM]

yea... same thought I had. Seems like the listed price is going towards funding... I had imagined the price point between 10-15k, 21k is crazy

As listed, the kit provides:
- supercharger
- intakemanifold with integrated cooling abilities [Admin edit: Liquid-to-air intercooler, similar to W211 E55 design]
- crankshaft pulley
- bracket for other pulleys

These are all the listed parts. Other items like 6 litres and engine management (ignition and fuel injection) are optional. It is not street legal, of course.

We know that the compression ratio is essential, as well as ignition and fuel to make the whole thing work. If the LH could be modified, this would be a basis for a lot of conversions at much lower costs. It is interesting, but I doubt that there will be a lot of european customers.

At €21k + engine preps + installation + additional unexpected tweaks, it easily ends up in the €35k range. But as member @Rouven036 says the cost depends on how much DIY you are able to do.

But just look at my own supercharged 6.0 which was done when the 036 cars still were new in the shop; 6.0 conversion at AMG in 1994, supercharging at König Specials in 1996, the total cost was probably around DEM66k which is approx €36k(??). Walter König told they did a veeeery few, probably 3-4 036, and my car was the only 6.0 they've supercharged. And that was in the hottest era for these cars, with an up running spare parts availability.

At that kit price the market will be close to zero for Stern Garage, and it will be a case to case delivery. What about spare parts & warranty claims, will it be like the Brabus philosophy: send over your car – we fix – you pay...? The price has to be reduced 50%, and if they aim for a higher quantity production it is fully possible. Keep in mind they use a standard off the shelf supercharger, the other parts is machining of low alloy material, while the engine management adaption is the golden key in the concept.

 

[ace10]

Who is the target buyer for a 35K blower kit?

 

[gsxr]

Who is the target buyer for a 35K blower kit?

Depends on the power output. +30% / 400hp, I have no clue. Might as well build a 6L for less money and less hassle.

+100% / 650hp, forum members might consider selling a kidney something.

 

[500AMM]

That €35k is my guesstimate, but it depends on what the kit includes and which power level they are aiming for. If the output is high enough the engine will likely need a decomp job and then it starts counting. I don't mean to kill peoples dreams, the plans for the kit looks nice so it will be exciting to follow.

 

[ace10]

Depends on the power output. +30% / 400hp, I have no clue. Might as well build a 6L for less money and less hassle.

+100% / 650hp, forum members might consider selling a kidney something.

Somebody with that kind of spare change probably didn't purchase a ballin-on-a-budget car.
Whereas if you've got a nicely-running car with good cosmetics, are you going to do this sort of modification and "ruin" the originality?

Aren't there rule of thumb for power additions from a blower? I cannot imaging it'd be more than 20 or 30 percent.

This isn't a troll, I'm just struggling with the thought process of bringing this to market.

 

[gsxr]

Aren't there rule of thumb for power additions from a blower? I cannot imaging it'd be more than 20 or 30 percent.

This isn't a troll, I'm just struggling with the thought process of bringing this to market.

Depends on the extent of the modifications. With modified factory ECU control (i.e., 9th injector on top of LH with stock injectors) there may be a practical limit of ~30%. Stock compression ratio may also be a concern with factory ECU. I think Albrex/Koenig were around +30% but I forget if that was stock compression, or lower compression. These tuners used LH control because in the 90's, Megasquirt or equivalent technology did not yet exist outside factory race teams.

Higher power levels require more mods. Injectors with higher flow rate, aftermarket ECU, etc. Allegedly, modern ECU can handle higher compression ratios (look at the M156/M159 supercharger kits with >11:1 compression ratio). In theory this should allow at least +50% gain, probably more. I don't know what the limiting factor is.

In general, I think the price level has to be low enough, and power level needs to be high enough, to make it a more cost-effective solution vs a 6L build. $35k€ for the same power you'd get from a naturally-aspirated 6.0 does not make any financial sense. It would need to be half that price, installed. OR, make a bunch more power to justify the pricetag.

Need more details, including dyno data & dragstrip numbers, from SG.

 

[Bogeyman]

I honestly don't know if it is relevant but they get some crazy numbers on blown diesels...

 

[gsxr]

I honestly don't know if it is relevant but they get some crazy numbers on blown diesels...

The OM603 and OM606 diesels are capable of producing insane power levels. Easily 3x stock power (150 -->450hp) on the 603, and 3.5x (175 --> 600hp) on the 606. They just keep adding fuel and boost, sometimes 3.0-4.0 bar (45-60 psi) IIRC? Along with intercoolers bigger than the radiators. These can make 2.0x-3.0x stock power with stock long blocks (stock crank, rods, pistons, heads). It's crazy.

Much, much more difficult to make power on the petrol engines.

 

[anderzen]

OM606’s are absolutely nutty, you won’t have the rev range but you’ll have all the torque you’d ever need for the rpm’s you do get lol. They feel like freight trains pulling you under wot… have thought about getting into that platform many times but I’m absolute newb with diesel knowledge and experience…

 

[500AMM]

OM606’s are absolutely nutty, you won’t have the rev range but you’ll have all the torque you’d ever need for the rpm’s you do get lol. They feel like freight trains pulling you under wot… have thought about getting into that platform many times but I’m absolute newb with diesel knowledge and experience…

Yes, those tuned diesels are really torquey puppies.
I've never been into one, I guess it feels like an electric car (...ouch, now I'm stepping mortal territory here)

 

[500AMM]

Depends on the extent of the modifications. With modified factory ECU control (i.e., 9th injector on top of LH with stock injectors) there may be a practical limit of ~30%. Stock compression ratio may also be a concern with factory ECU. I think Albrex/Koenig were around +30% but I forget if that was stock compression, or lower compression. These tuners used LH control because in the 90's, Megasquirt or equivalent technology did not yet exist outside factory race teams.

My 6.0 was decomp'ed according to König and has (or had) allegedly 580Hp, which is a 50% increase on a stock 6.0 AMG. That's pretty optimistic numbers for a low boost kit and I haven't confirmed it, so I've always kept a low profile on that. It has a radial supercharger and from what I've learned they work more like a turbocharger giving more top end power compared to a screw compressor giving most past mid range. But that has changed due to modern ECU technology.

Higher power levels require more mods. Injectors with higher flow rate, aftermarket ECU, etc. Allegedly, modern ECU can handle higher compression ratios (look at the M156/M159 supercharger kits with >11:1 compression ratio). In theory this should allow at least +50% gain, probably more. I don't know what the limiting factor is.

Yes, thanks to modern engine management technology it can handle higher compression ratios. But I'm not sure I would trust any aftermarket standalone for having a robust software cloned correctly by a tuning shop, and be 100% safe for a M119 with stock comp and high power. But I'm not skilled on this so I hope I am wrong.

In general, I think the price level has to be low enough, and power level needs to be high enough, to make it a more cost-effective solution vs a 6L build. $35k€ for the same power you'd get from a naturally-aspirated 6.0 does not make any financial sense. It would need to be half that price, installed. OR, make a bunch more power to justify the pricetag.

Agree 100%. Due to the fact that it has never been any proven tuning parts commercially available for the M119, all of it will be custom made kicking the price tag upwards. Maybe Stern Garage manage all the three factors; high power – nice price – safety.

 

[anderzen]

Engine management does play a huge factor especially when updating such a far gap between what was capable then versus now. I know with simple aftermarket options like a megasquirt you can expect typically 20-30hp on the stock 4.2 and 5.0 m119's just with some fuel map and basic timing changes.

MaxxECU seems like one of the best options out there for the price as it's been used more so than most on Mercedes platforms, has the ability to control both trans/engine with one brain and can do things like dual spark needed for the m113. There is a guy running a C32 with a BMW DCT for instance with no issues using this option. Someday that ecu is the goal for the e420, once I can find a cheap 5.0 to do a boost build on.

Albrex supercharger kits can also still be found out of Japan by the original producer, no idea what they cost but I found the website the other day. I'll try to find the link again and post...

Utlimate Benz Tech : アルティメットベンツテック　ベンツ専門 改造 オーバーホール チューニング 東京都港区

 

[500AMM]

Very interesting!
Here is the link to Conrad Gruber and his Albrex;
Albrex engine tuning, high performance engines and technologies
It appears he is still going on and has adapted to newer cars and technology.

 

[500AMM]

Below is a screenshot of what König Specials offered. Walter König told they made an agreement with Conrad Gruber who supplied his Albrex superchargers for their kits. Their kit didn't include any intercooler, but my car got a small air/air intercooler later on so maybe that raised the power from 520hp to the allegedly 580hp, who knows..

 

[TerryA]

@500AMM,

Arnt, It’s been a long time since I’ve seen your SuperMerc 6.0 Is it possible to post some updated pics of your car?

Just Asking

lol

 

[gsxr]

Albrex supercharger kits can also still be found out of Japan by the original producer, no idea what they cost but I found the website the other day. I'll try to find the link again and post...

Utlimate Benz Tech : アルティメットベンツテック　ベンツ専門 改造 オーバーホール チューニング 東京都港区

The Japanese site translation has some interesting info. Ported/polished with custom (all aluminium!?) cams and they are getting near 370hp from 5.0L? But only 400hp from an Albrex supercharger with stock 5.0L? At least they bump that to 430-450 with both the modifications and SC combined, but still... I was kinda expecting more with modern ECU controls.

Excerpt:

" One example is our original gold engine. ... loss in each part has been eliminated, and the flow of intake air and exhaust is smoothed with a unique cam profile, valve, valve seat processing and guide cutting (same method as AMG and Brabus). ... maximum output is 370 horsepower or more, while maintaining the displacement of 5.0L.​

​

In Stage 1 , we will process it into a normal engine and install a Supercharger. A maximum output of 400PS is possible [from 5.0L].​

​

In stage 2 , we will use the previous gold engine as a base and make a separate process for the Supercharger and install the supercharger. Maximum output 430PS-450PS is possible [from 5.0L].​

​

Stage 3 is a 6.0L engine with a supercharger, capable of up to 550 horsepower.​

​

The performance of the M119 V8 engine, which is over 200kg lighter than the M120 engine, is truly the ultimate."​

I assume Stage 3 is based on a 6.0L "gold engine" to get 550hp.

Also not sure if the M120 is as porky as they claim. Internet says the complete M120 with accessories is 290kg/640lbs. Clearly, the M119 does not weigh only 90kg/200lbs so that is a typo. Found data that a loaded M117 is 235kg/515lbs, so the M119 should not be significantly heavier.

 

[anderzen]

I’m not entirely sure what engine management they are using, but it could just be piggy back as I know a car in Texas with this kit which is using just that.
There is a guy named Taylor developing a ton of turbo parts for the M119 currently who is using fueltech ECU. Think he is aiming for some pretty good power numbers and already has a twin turbo he built and is developing further. You can find him on Fb or IG, I think user name is amantaylor. Hopefully he is already on here, not sure…

 

[500AMM]

In case you are refering to the TGA car:

Supercharged 1993 500E | High-Performance Modifications

Hello all: Today I had the honor of being invited to the annual Oktoberfest celebration that is put on by the Texas German Autohaus (TGA), one of the largest indy MB repair shops in the Houston area. I had heard through Dr. No that one of the two co-owners of the shop, Hans Richter, has owned...

www.500eboard.co

I've copied image #7 and #9 showing the Albrex piggy back controller and MAF.

 

[gsxr]

Interesting the TGA car had the stainless braided fuel hoses replaced with standard rubber & worm gear clamps:

 

[anderzen]

I want to see what the connections at the intake manifold look like underneath covers! lol

I was referring to the TGA car indeed! My buddy Alex featured it on his YT channel (Another manual swapper of M113's) you can find the video here