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CATALYTIC CONVERTER
- Thread starter ceed09
- Start date
You'll see some moderate (perhaps 5HP) gain if you remove the cat, just due to decreased restriction in the system. And you can and should only remove the cat if you legally can do this (i.e. your local or state government doesn't require it). You also may gain a bit of resonance/noise with removal of the cat.
There are alternatives such as "high-flow" cats that provide less restriction than the stock cat does, while still giving you the emissions reduction that is often needed.
That said, I'd only remove the catalytic converter if it's not required, and also as part of an overall exhaust system redesign to reduce total exhaust system restriction. Just removing the cat and replacing it with a "straight pipe" is really not going to get you much, in and of itself. Work with an exhaust shop to design an entire exhaust system from the exhaust manifolds back to the tailpipe.
Cheers,
Gerry
There are alternatives such as "high-flow" cats that provide less restriction than the stock cat does, while still giving you the emissions reduction that is often needed.
That said, I'd only remove the catalytic converter if it's not required, and also as part of an overall exhaust system redesign to reduce total exhaust system restriction. Just removing the cat and replacing it with a "straight pipe" is really not going to get you much, in and of itself. Work with an exhaust shop to design an entire exhaust system from the exhaust manifolds back to the tailpipe.
Cheers,
Gerry
Cat removal gets you very little, if any, increase in peak power. It may shift the power curve slightly, maybe. I did some back to back dragstrip testing on this a couple months ago and was surprised that the car ran essentially identical times/speeds with or without the cats. There was not the expected tenth quicker / 1mph faster you'd expect with the cats removed. I haven't done back to back dyno runs, but if there was any significant (7-10hp or more) change in power (either up or down), it would have been apparent at the 'strip. YMMV, etc...
.gif "OMG :omg:")
My 1994 E500 dyno'd at 280hp at the wheels, which translates into an estimated 341hp at the crank assuming an 18% driveline loss. Stock cats, Y-pipe, Remus muffler, and 1992 LH module. There's a detailed thread on this on 500Ecstasy, when Scott resurrects it I can post a link here.
Anyway, the dyno numbers were backed up with real world performace as well: a best (uncorrected) dragstrip time of 13.674 @ 102.88 at sea level (Sacramento, CA) with stock wheels/tires, stock gearing, no LSD, trunk emptied, back seat removed, and 4 gallons of fuel. It would have been a bit quicker but wheelspin was an issue at the launch. I'm reasonably certain that it would have pulled 13.5xx if I had been able to get it hooked up (via drag radials and/or limited slip diff, which I installed a few years later in mid-2009). I believe this may be the current dragstrip record for any E500E with a 5.0L engine and no power adders (NOS, turbo, blower, etc). GVZ currently holds the record for a NOS'd car, although Justin is trying to dethrone him, heh-heh...
Anyway, the dyno numbers were backed up with real world performace as well: a best (uncorrected) dragstrip time of 13.674 @ 102.88 at sea level (Sacramento, CA) with stock wheels/tires, stock gearing, no LSD, trunk emptied, back seat removed, and 4 gallons of fuel. It would have been a bit quicker but wheelspin was an issue at the launch. I'm reasonably certain that it would have pulled 13.5xx if I had been able to get it hooked up (via drag radials and/or limited slip diff, which I installed a few years later in mid-2009). I believe this may be the current dragstrip record for any E500E with a 5.0L engine and no power adders (NOS, turbo, blower, etc). GVZ currently holds the record for a NOS'd car, although Justin is trying to dethrone him, heh-heh...
Only cats removal or replacing with 100cells racing-kats will not work properly on the stock exhaust-system!
But what works is when you create a new exhaust-system completely 2-way from engine to end, of course with 100cell racing-cats. Key is to reduce not only backpressure, but also turbulences in the exhaust.
And all people so far i talked to, both on 500ecstasy and some german Forums, told me the difference is very noticable when flooring the car. Also i talked to a guy from some Youtube Videos which build a custom 2-Way exhaust for his 400E and he also told me there was a noticable difference in acceleration and on high-speed quicker intermediate sprints.
In german Forum someone did that (Thomas Burgmann, IIRC) too, he was before/after on same dyno with his 500E and he had like 328 DIN-HP before and IIRC 347 DIN-HP afterwards. Also Torque increased around 15-25NM (don't remeber right numbers). Also IIRC the Dyno was the Dyno from Bernard Marijanovic, the allmighty german M119 God.
Here was a guy from 500ecstasy which had written a detailed review of his change to a race-cat powered two-way exhaust system on his 500E. The Video i took from his Hompage and uploaded it to YT. He also has written in that topic that the power-gain is very noticable ;-)
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg7m-zejvyg
But forget it to do a 2-Way exhaust on your own, right diameters and everything has to be planned&calculated by a skilled company, people that do that peoperly need to understand fluid mechanics properly!
In Germany basicall ALL of the custom Exhaust-Builders are in German Motorsports since at least decades and knowing their Job very very well.
But what works is when you create a new exhaust-system completely 2-way from engine to end, of course with 100cell racing-cats. Key is to reduce not only backpressure, but also turbulences in the exhaust.
And all people so far i talked to, both on 500ecstasy and some german Forums, told me the difference is very noticable when flooring the car. Also i talked to a guy from some Youtube Videos which build a custom 2-Way exhaust for his 400E and he also told me there was a noticable difference in acceleration and on high-speed quicker intermediate sprints.
In german Forum someone did that (Thomas Burgmann, IIRC) too, he was before/after on same dyno with his 500E and he had like 328 DIN-HP before and IIRC 347 DIN-HP afterwards. Also Torque increased around 15-25NM (don't remeber right numbers). Also IIRC the Dyno was the Dyno from Bernard Marijanovic, the allmighty german M119 God.
Here was a guy from 500ecstasy which had written a detailed review of his change to a race-cat powered two-way exhaust system on his 500E. The Video i took from his Hompage and uploaded it to YT. He also has written in that topic that the power-gain is very noticable ;-)
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg7m-zejvyg
But forget it to do a 2-Way exhaust on your own, right diameters and everything has to be planned&calculated by a skilled company, people that do that peoperly need to understand fluid mechanics properly!
In Germany basicall ALL of the custom Exhaust-Builders are in German Motorsports since at least decades and knowing their Job very very well.
I tried the factory cat-delete pipe. Zero power gain. None. Nada. Zilch. Nothing. I have a hard time believing just the custom dual exhaust is worth ~20hp, however my '94 was making ~340hp at the crank with either pipe; i.e. stock cats or factory cat-delete pipe. Maybe the other folks had stock cats that were partially blocked, making the new/custom exhaust seem to produce more power???
More photos are here.
A vid of my car going 0-200kph is here (20MB MPG file).
That's with stock cats, Y-pipe, Remus muffler, stock gears, no limited-slip, stock wheels/tires, and at 2400' elevation with 3/4 tank of fuel. 0-60 was 5.84 sec, 0-100 was 13.69, 0-130 was 24.21 sec. Numbers are from RaceLogic AP-22 datalogger. Full data is here, look at the Jan-3-2009 info (text file).
More photos are here.
A vid of my car going 0-200kph is here (20MB MPG file).
That's with stock cats, Y-pipe, Remus muffler, stock gears, no limited-slip, stock wheels/tires, and at 2400' elevation with 3/4 tank of fuel. 0-60 was 5.84 sec, 0-100 was 13.69, 0-130 was 24.21 sec. Numbers are from RaceLogic AP-22 datalogger. Full data is here, look at the Jan-3-2009 info (text file).
gsxr said:I tried the factory cat-delete pipe. Zero power gain. None. Nada. Zilch. Nothing.
Curious...
Your website says the cat-delete pipe uses 55mm tubing vs the stock 50mm tubing. I wonder why the factory did this?
Did you notice much of a difference in the exhaust note or sound level with the cat-delete pipe in place?
Which 500s were originally equipped with this pipe? Does anyone know the cost or part #? I might still buy one!
Good question - I'm not exactly sure.Cadence said:
With the stock resonator and muffler, no, there was very little difference. However with the resonator replaced with a Y-pipe, there was an annoying "rattle" resonance at lower RPM's under heavy throttle. IMO, you can remove either the cats, or the resonator, but not both.Cadence said:
I believe only very early 500E's which were delivered to countries that did not have emissions requirements would have received this setup... possibly only 1991 or some 1992 model years, Europe only. I suspect that VERY few 500E's came from the factory like this. Without the O2 sensor, and no closed-loop operation, fuel economy suffered and there was no significant power increase either. If you buy the cat-delete pipe, you'll need to have an O2 sensor bung welded in, so you can attach the O2 sensor in your car - works fine.Cadence said:
Good question - I'm not exactly sure.
I believe only very early 500E's which were delivered to countries that did not have emissions requirements would have received this setup... possibly only 1991 or some 1992 model years, Europe only. I suspect that VERY few 500E's came from the factory like this. Without the O2 sensor, and no closed-loop operation, fuel economy suffered and there was no significant power increase either. If you buy the cat-delete pipe, you'll need to have an O2 sensor bung welded in, so you can attach the O2 sensor in your car - works fine.
Dave, I don't think my '92 has an O2 sensor, and my cats are starting to rattle a bit. I'm weighing the benefit of a "performance" exhaust from there back, vs. a simple straight pipe cat delete -- bang for the buck. What are your thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
maw
Hi, having just finished the exh. rebuild on the 500, not being able to go w new parts due to cost (there are other $€£ consumers in the garage) if I could afford it a completely new stock syst. is on the list. Now with a good stock system on after the first drive, I put my word for the oem syst. untouched, and no longer thinking of the (complex well enginered Helmholtz resonator) delete. speking of wich I use the center piece from a SL500! I was a bit fooled by the statement in the 500E servicebook saying the resonator is of the same kind as the one on the SL, well not really. I had to alter the two entering pipes and the exiting one and the suspension pin, the resonator itself is identical.
"With the stock resonator and muffler, no, there was very little difference. However with the resonator replaced with a Y-pipe, there was an annoying "rattle" resonance at lower RPM's under heavy throttle. IMO, you can remove either the cats, or the resonator, but not both".
It should be remembered, the sometimes unliked and seen unnessesary, thing, originally was designed for a roadster! you don't want a droone, just a whisper, no? Remember also the buyers group
targeted by MB, they liked the discressíon and understated appearance instead of a loud* here I come*expression. Go to BRABUS if your bold enough.
One thing about the centrally mounted silencer is... the 400/420 part IS simpler/lighter in construction but I have not heard from it yet.
Conclusion from me, before laborating w the exh. try a car in a good condition w stock system on, then ask yourself is it worth 1 or 2 tenths or an awfully ghastly noise whereever you go?
Nö in this case I love the sound of silence.
I do really consider, looking at your pictures of the cat delete pipe (thank you for that and all you have in your archive) this is what I'm thinking for the 6liter but w 2 race or sports catalystst's instead of that equaliser and also an X pipe somewhere along seems nessesary, that I belive would free some more real HP.
Any objection your Honor? Roger
"With the stock resonator and muffler, no, there was very little difference. However with the resonator replaced with a Y-pipe, there was an annoying "rattle" resonance at lower RPM's under heavy throttle. IMO, you can remove either the cats, or the resonator, but not both".
It should be remembered, the sometimes unliked and seen unnessesary, thing, originally was designed for a roadster! you don't want a droone, just a whisper, no? Remember also the buyers group
targeted by MB, they liked the discressíon and understated appearance instead of a loud* here I come*expression. Go to BRABUS if your bold enough.
One thing about the centrally mounted silencer is... the 400/420 part IS simpler/lighter in construction but I have not heard from it yet.
Conclusion from me, before laborating w the exh. try a car in a good condition w stock system on, then ask yourself is it worth 1 or 2 tenths or an awfully ghastly noise whereever you go?
Nö in this case I love the sound of silence.
I do really consider, looking at your pictures of the cat delete pipe (thank you for that and all you have in your archive) this is what I'm thinking for the 6liter but w 2 race or sports catalystst's instead of that equaliser and also an X pipe somewhere along seems nessesary, that I belive would free some more real HP.
Any objection your Honor? Roger
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Hi, i would advise to use the search function. Easy keywords like "cats" or "metalkat" or "magnaflow" will lead you to the right topics about it. We had lots of topics/reply about that in the last half year so you will have a good long read after you find it.
A Member from this Board called "Jelmer" has replaced his broken and molten cats with my advise of using aftermarket magnaflow 100cell metal cats. He is highly pleased with the results and has posted tons of pictures and videos of this change here.
Hope this helps
All USA-spec cars have an O2 sensor. It's hidden on the top of the pipes right in front of the cats. In general, I wouldn't recommend deleting the cats on a street car, as it's technically illegal, and the car won't pass emissions testing without the cats (may not apply where you live). If you do remove the cats, you'll probably want to keep the stock resonator (middle muffler).
I'd recommend to either get new OE cats, the aftermarket 400E/500E-specific replacement cat, or the generic/universal/small high-flow cats. Used OE cats would be the easiest, if you could find them for sale. Maybe check with Jono...?
*I'd recommend to either get new OE cats, the aftermarket 400E/500E-specific replacement cat, or the generic/universal/small high-flow cats. Used OE cats would be the easiest, if you could find them for sale.*
Yeah, and that at a price too, roundabout 2 600€ and another 1 600€or the rest of the system! Well go ahead and order, no wonder most people try to get around that by constructing or replacing w aftermarket parts and hoping to get some HP in exchange at the same time. I did earlier and will do on the 6liter but one of the problems , there aren't enough space for a.m. cat's, only the so called
race cats will fit side by side and I am sensitive to how the system visually appears and also to *tune it in* hence some resonator is essensial. I have seen some *homebuilt* exh. systems over the years
and most of them looks like shit and are too loud for anyone slightly over the age of 20. My point of wiew,, Roger
Yeah, and that at a price too, roundabout 2 600€ and another 1 600€or the rest of the system! Well go ahead and order, no wonder most people try to get around that by constructing or replacing w aftermarket parts and hoping to get some HP in exchange at the same time. I did earlier and will do on the 6liter but one of the problems , there aren't enough space for a.m. cat's, only the so called
race cats will fit side by side and I am sensitive to how the system visually appears and also to *tune it in* hence some resonator is essensial. I have seen some *homebuilt* exh. systems over the years
and most of them looks like shit and are too loud for anyone slightly over the age of 20. My point of wiew,, Roger
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There isnt any change in appearance of sound and/or loudness when only replacing the cats. Jelmer did confirmed this and he is the one that made this change.
Indeed. Only change is they hang about 2-4cm below the car (aftermarket ones are round and fat, instead of long and slim like the OEMs)
BUT, if your unlucky, you will get some noise right under the car and you need to wrap and shield off i.e not transmitting at the tailpipes but from somewhere around the catalysts, maybe has to do w sheatmetal thickness of the cat. build. That sound or resonance/noise comes esp. under heavy acc
round 4 000 rpm, I have heard, at least two 500E w that phenomenon and find it a bit annoying, I like the stealthy action more and more of the 500,, Roger
round 4 000 rpm, I have heard, at least two 500E w that phenomenon and find it a bit annoying, I like the stealthy action more and more of the 500,, Roger
Jelmer will confirm you that this is NOT the case when just replacing the cats.
Even completely custom build exhausts dont have any resonance sounds at all. I have asked 4,5 people in german Forums with custom exhausts built from manifolds till the end, by professional exhaust-building companies and there is no weird sound at all.
Christian, is this an arguement, personal oppinions don't really compare, allright people are satisfied w some custombuilt systems some aren't.
What I have experienced can not be questioned, what other people has said is OK is OK for them and also we don't know how *itchy* they are.
Please do compare w a good o.e.m exh. I think many of those buying a custombuilt syst. are already on the last leg and are happy to have that *new* exh. and the money saved compared to a new o.e.m exh.
One thing also, would you and *other people* question the fact that stainless steel systems do have another *note* and if that bothers, turn the stereo
up a bit. I do have my oppinion and I'm not trying to convince anyone there, are different standpoints, so no one can be right or wrong here,,Roger
What I have experienced can not be questioned, what other people has said is OK is OK for them and also we don't know how *itchy* they are.
Please do compare w a good o.e.m exh. I think many of those buying a custombuilt syst. are already on the last leg and are happy to have that *new* exh. and the money saved compared to a new o.e.m exh.
One thing also, would you and *other people* question the fact that stainless steel systems do have another *note* and if that bothers, turn the stereo
up a bit. I do have my oppinion and I'm not trying to convince anyone there, are different standpoints, so no one can be right or wrong here,,Roger
You get what you pay for. Having a muffler shop slap together an exhaust vs. an exhaust build specific to your car can result in weird sounds. Same goes for using cheap parts and material to save $. A well build exhaust takes a bit of time to design and it's not cheap, while keeping in mind its purpose.
My custom exhaust sounds perfect, at idle and at all RPM's with no weird sounds to speak of...even going backwards, the car sounds perfect.
My custom exhaust sounds perfect, at idle and at all RPM's with no weird sounds to speak of...even going backwards, the car sounds perfect.
I was unable to find a new one anywhere and, luckily, found a used one (thanks Capruff). I am assuming that it should bolt right on with new seals. Anything else I need to know about R&R? Jeff said you would know GSXR...
Magnaflow has a "direct replacement" ... would that be better than a "good" used one?
I'd prefer a good used one over anything aftermarket. R&R is a PITA without a lift, and even with a lift it can be a PITA... especially if the car spend any time in the rust belt. Usually, the worst part is separating the resonator (middle muffler) from the main cat pipe... it can be VERY tight if it's never been separated before. Check all the rubber hangers and replace any that are old/cracked; remember the cat hangers are NOT the same as the rear muffler donuts.
Maudell, what was wrong with your old cats? Did you try buying new from MB and were told they are NLA or something? I thought MB would have to provide emissions related parts for quite a long time, I wouldn't expect the cats to be NLA already.
Maudell, what was wrong with your old cats? Did you try buying new from MB and were told they are NLA or something? I thought MB would have to provide emissions related parts for quite a long time, I wouldn't expect the cats to be NLA already.
I heard a rattle noise on start up a couple of weeks ago coming from that area.Once warmed up it went away. Hit them with a rubber mallet and it sounded like a bag of rocks in there.
The cause was probably something that developed as I was trying to diagnose and fix a misfire and no start when the car was up to temp....in the process I replaced spark plug wires, plugs, all breather and vacuum lines,throttle body (my original unit was rebuilt by BBA Reman and I got newer unitinstead, to rule out THAT), ISC/CC....etc, etc, etc.
Here is the long thread on that process…
I checked with Lionel at MB Gainesville and he said NLA…from reading posts I have found, it sounds like a new one, if found would be approx. $2400.
Two local indy shops said they would not recommend an aftermarket and one said they sound different and do not have a good lifespan as well. I use MB parts only on this car and that is another reason for leaning to the used one. It is in excellent condition from the outside so I am hopeful that I do not have to worry about another one.
The hangers on mine are original and in pretty good condition but I am replacing them anyway.
There is no rust under my car (has lived it's entire life here in Portland), it IS a 1993 so I thought about the same thing, what problem will arise when trying to remove the unit. All bolts/clamps are in good shape, the front/top one has shiny (S/S) nuts on the clamp so I am tempted to put it on the lift and replace myself using a tranny lift to hold it up….since the shop I would take it to said he would not install a used cat. That front one looks like the PITA because of its location.
The rear left tube is not flanged so I am guessing the resonator side has a special flanged connection…?
W140 500 vs e500e cats - are they interchangeable?
http://www.ebay.de/itm/232311386291?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
i guess not.... they looks a little bit different....
http://www.ebay.de/itm/232311386291?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
i guess not.... they looks a little bit different....
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No. The pipes are not the same, it's definitely not a bolt-on, not even close. You might be able cut & weld the catalysts if they are the same lengths, but I'm not sure about that either.
Even if so, they wont last another 10 years for sure... When i read through the german forums, it seems the cat's fail very often these days on the M119 & M120 Plattforms... Better to go with a different solution IMHO
There is a company in germany now offering these ones as a replacement for the 500E and E420 catalytic converters... They are made to factory spec by a larger exhaust company. They contain i beleive 4x400cell catalytic converters - same cell density like stock.
My version... it’s compatible with the stock resonator/rear muffler.
Catalysts are a HM 400cell cat that’s 50state legal. It’s a lot more free flowing than the stock unit while being smog legal.
This is an upgrade to the stock unit pipe diameter has been increased. The 2-1-2 pipe is a full 3” unit. The 3” pipe is oval bent to maximize ground clearance while offering the performance benefits of a 3” pipe.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You should offer the car catalyst section with 100cell metall catalytic converters....
That can be arranged...
100CPI cats from HJS are about $980 each.
so basically
Front section w/ test pipes $1500.00
HJS Cats Assembled $1960.00
total $3460.00
I did one for a customer in Canada but he supplied the HJS cats.
the 100CPI metallic cats made in Canada or USA are TOTAL CRAP i refuse to use anything but HJS for 100cpi cats.
but to be honest whats the point of a 100CPI cat???
it won't pass emissions testing???
$980 EACH? Are they gold-plated and hand-delivered by supermodels?
Will they pass emission testing outside of California (49-state)? I'm guessing some people may live in areas with less stringent requirements? :?:
$980 EACH? Are they gold-plated and hand-delivered by supermodels?
Will they pass emission testing outside of California (49-state)? I'm guessing some people may live in areas with less stringent requirements? :?:
Not sure ask the Germans why it so expensive lol...
They won't pass 49 states either because the 100CPI does not have enough filtering properties to clean everything up.
The only thing a 100CPI cat will do is prevent fuel smell to pass tech inspection at race events.
for OBD2 applications its a little different the 100CPI might pass emissions testing. European cars equipped with OBD2 especially any car produced after 2010 is every efficient.
BTW
Ebay special $899....
https://www.ebay.com/i/251731770636?chn=ps&dispItem=1
the DIY special make your own end caps for $499.00 http://www.ebay.com/itm/HJS-Tuning-...d=251731770636&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598
I have 100cell cats in my 500E and it works. I DO pass the emissions tests. They are made by Magnaflow for the EU market and were ~110€/each incl. VAT.
Metallic what else.... Never heard of 100cell nor 200cell ceramic. Ceramic is inferior.
I think it were those ones. They have it with different diameters. I think we need 54mm or? It was 5 years ago - cant remember.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Magnaflow-Re...369664&hash=item4615d698d4:g:ZdQAAOSwEppUR4cy
How are you gsxr ? Do you know where i can find the catalytic converter for 97 m119 engien e420Cat removal gets you very little, if any, increase in peak power. It may shift the power curve slightly, maybe. I did some back to back dragstrip testing on this a couple months ago and was surprised that the car ran essentially identical times/speeds with or without the cats. There was not the expected tenth quicker / 1mph faster you'd expect with the cats removed. I haven't done back to back dyno runs, but if there was any significant (7-10hp or more) change in power (either up or down), it would have been apparent at the 'strip. YMMV, etc...
I'm not sure on availability for the W210 E420 catalyst... have you checked to see if they are available new? ($$$$!)
How are you gsxr ? Do you know where i can find the catalytic converter for 97 m119 engien eCat removal gets you very little, if any, increase in peak power. It may shift the power curve slightly, maybe. I did some back to back dragstrip testing on this a couple months ago and was surprised that the car ran essentially identical times/speeds with or without the cats. There was not the expected tenth quicker / 1mph faster you'd expect with the cats removed. I haven't done back to back dyno runs, but if there was any significant (7-10hp or more) change in power (either up or down), it would have been apparent at the 'strip. YMMV, etc...
i found one on ebay i will take my chance with it .it is an after market but new
Can you post a link to the eBay listing? There were some W124 converter listings that were extremely cheap (like, $200) that appeared to be junk...
amazing HP numbers. No ECU remap, chip or tune at all? Stock ECU I assume?
