Are different stall torque converters available for our transmissions?

[samiam44]

Anyone know?

I know there were 034 shift kits.


M

 

[gsxr]

I've seen aftermarket companies offer modified converters for the 722.x series transmissions, however I've not seen any first-hand reports of people using them. Pretty sure you can find the E55 crowd with higher-stall converters in their 722.6 but that's an apples-to-oranges comparison. Unless you're into drag racing and/or trying to squeeze out the last couple of tenths from an 036, I'd expect most people wouldn't find much benefit for street use. Anyone BT / DT?

 

[samiam44]

Read the last paragraph in this link:

http://www.sonnax.com/articles/90-High-Performance-Converters-Stall-Speed-Core-Selection-and-More

Stall speed for drag racing is matched below the torque peak.

 

[whipplem104]

You can get pretty much any reputable torque converter company to change the stall. I did one on my 722.3 many years ago. Really not a big deal. Mainly it just opens up the launch on the car. But you do loose some efficiency on the top end. But if you just go mild it really is not a big deal. I went to a 2200-2500 stall and it made a huge difference getting the car to move off the line.

 

[gsxr]

Read the last paragraph in this link:
http://www.sonnax.com/articles/90-High-Performance-Converters-Stall-Speed-Core-Selection-and-More

The last paragraph is discussing converter efficiency, and how clearance affects both efficiency and stall speed. Stall speed is changed by adjusting the angle of the vanes on the internal parts.

Stall speed for drag racing is matched below the torque peak.

Different converter mfr's have different recommendations, but in general it seems the ideal for drag use is to have the stall several hundred RPM below the torque peak. Sonnax says brake stall 500-700 below peak torque, which on a 400E or 500E would be 3200-3400 rpm... which would be terrible on the street. Remember that stock MB stall is in the 1800-2000 range for the 034/036.

You can get pretty much any reputable torque converter company to change the stall. I did one on my 722.3 many years ago. Really not a big deal. Mainly it just opens up the launch on the car. But you do loose some efficiency on the top end. But if you just go mild it really is not a big deal. I went to a 2200-2500 stall and it made a huge difference getting the car to move off the line.

Exactly what I was thinking, Steve. It would be interesting to put a ~2500 stall converter on a 500E and see what it does to the 60' times.

 

[Ascension]

The last paragraph is discussing converter efficiency, and how clearance affects both efficiency and stall speed. Stall speed is changed by adjusting the angle of the vanes on the internal parts.



Different converter mfr's have different recommendations, but in general it seems the ideal for drag use is to have the stall several hundred RPM below the torque peak. Sonnax says brake stall 500-700 below peak torque, which on a 400E or 500E would be 3200-3400 rpm... which would be terrible on the street. Remember that stock MB stall is in the 1800-2000 range for the 034/036.



Exactly what I was thinking, Steve. It would be interesting to put a ~2500 stall converter on a 500E and see what it does to the 60' times.

A stall converter on a NA M119 car with the gears that are in these cars is NOT a good idea!! Would really help if you had a gear like say at least a 3.43 or so but higher will build HUGE amounts of heat in regular street use with these gears and kill throttle response due to the slip. A turbo car with gears like ours responds well as a higher stall and long gears helps build boost off the line but it will kill a NA car unless you gear it.

 

[samiam44]

I think when renntech rebuilt my transmission, the stall is actually lower that or it's just a bit tighter than average.

 

[NIIBE]

I am using JMO stall 3000 converter with 3.64 final on strip.
Good for 12second and reach 4th gear but break drive shafts breaker.
I think this is made in USA!

http://www.jmousa.com/jp/flash/frame/main/product/pictures/3/index.html

Regards,

Niibe from PRC
http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/

 

[samiam44]

Are you breaking the driveshaft or the cv axle? Williams Engineering makes great stuff, you might be able to get a group buy to amortize the engineering costs.

I've had excellent dealings with the owner Mark.

Sincerely

Michael

 

[NIIBE]

Michael,

Thank you for your comment,

Yes, I had broken both CV joints at strip with 3.64 gear and Nitto 555R.
So Now I am using SL600 CV joints that has large diameter/ T27 and hub but it will brake soon with radial tire.
Original 500E has T25 shafts.

Mark Williams is very good brand name !
I am also using its 9 inch aluminum diff and rear ends kits with ladder bar and 33inch bias for another drag race stock car in Japan.

I seriously need large diameter T27,29 to T30 hub and CV joints if possible.
I am comparing Porsche 930 CV now.

NIIBE

Are you breaking the driveshaft or the cv axle? Williams Engineering makes great stuff, you might be able to get a group buy to amortize the engineering costs.

I've had excellent dealings with the owner Mark.

Sincerely

Michael

 

[whipplem104]

Are you breaking the cv joint or the splines going into the wheel flange? I have already been down this road as a few others. You can have the flanges drilled and broached for larger axles or you can also use the CLK63 BS axle flanges. They have the larger lug bolts though. Which is an advantage in some ways. I have also upgraded to a 215mm differential and am using c63 axles to fit it all together. So all off the shelf parts. I did have to machine the spindles a little for the c63 axles but not a big deal. And I have a slightly widened rear track. There is a fair amount of work to cut and weld the differential into the subframe. So unless you are going for big power I do not think it is worth it. The axles and wheel flanges are a must though if you are launching hard.

 

[gsxr]

What kind of hard launches are we talking about here, to break axles? I.e., what 60-foot times, and/or G-forces measured via data recorders (VBox, Race Technology dataloggers, NOT an iPhone)?

For reference, I've dipped into the mid-1.80's for 60' with 1.0x G's without problems... but would like to know how close I am to breaking stuff.

 

[samiam44]

Interesting,


Absolutely talk with Mark Williams. MOST the OEM axle/driveshaft stuff is SAE1018 steel with casehardening if needed. Low cost, but properly built chromoly would be an enhancement. I think Arnte broke a c/v a couple years ago too.
You should provide some information on your T27 conversion.

Michael

 

[whipplem104]

GSXR,

He is getting a lot of torque multiplication with a 3k converter and the 3.64 gears. Say the engine is producing 250lb/ft of torque at 3k rpm and a 1.7 tq multiplication at the converter and 3.5:1 1st gear and 3.64 final drive he is reaching 5503lb/ft of torque at the axles. Say with a stock converter he is at 150lb/ft of torque at around 1500-1700 rpm and a 1.5 tq multiplication with the same 1st gear and 2.74 final drive and you are at 2157 lb/ft of torque at the axles. I picked the engine torque out of the blue and was conservative on the converter flash tq. But you get the idea. It adds up very quickly.

 

[NIIBE]

gsxr,

Thank you for comment.

Regarding my old past 0-60ft 1.6sec with 2.65diff and stall 3000 converter.

I could easily reach 1.5sec with 3.64 and stall 3000 converter/722.3 trans but broke both R and L shafts with Drag Radial 275-17 Nitto 555R.

I think it would be better if I could use 15inch 26 diam Bias Drag Tire, but my rear brake size is 340mm with Porsche Turbo Brembo large red lobster.
So I can’t use such traditional method for saving shafts.

Mercedes 500E T25φ27mm Spline is too small for hard driving.
Not a few 6litter guys in Japan had broken this tiny shaft with OS-GIKEN LSD and 275 or more wider tread tire even in street.

So I should convert T27φ29mm Spline from W210 wagon/SL600 that have large bearing.
But I think these are not enough for full throttle at Strip with new building motor.

I am wondering to change rear brake disc under 300mm for 15inch.
My problem is , I could reached, and I am using AMG 8POD and 390mm Porsche GT2 disc for Front and also using 32mm large bore master cylinder for proper stroke,
So this new modification will make total re-setting.

http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/category19-3.html

http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/blog-entry-379.html


NIIBE Satoshi

What kind of hard launches are we talking about here, to break axles? I.e., what 60-foot times, and/or G-forces measured via data recorders (VBox, Race Technology dataloggers, NOT an iPhone)?

For reference, I've dipped into the mid-1.80's for 60' with 1.0x G's without problems... but would like to know how close I am to breaking stuff.

 

[NIIBE]

whipplem104,

Thank you for your precious information.

Actually I had broken the spline(s) R and L at strip.
I had invest not a small budget for 210mm Dif.
I have realised that My stock are 2.24,2.47,2.65.2.82,3.04,3.47 and 3.64 diff with Housing and expensive OS giken LSD.
So I can not move to 215mm Diff easily and may sticking these while.

NIIBE

 

[NIIBE]

It would be very appreciated if I could buy Cr-Mo made shafts and Hub/career.
I am still sticking stock 210mm diff and stock multilink suspension.

I have understand that I could not reach 11second if I could not solve this weak point.
I do not want to hit concrete barrier by braking one drive shaft.

T27 conversion information are listed my blog, but sorry in Japanese.
It need W210 wagon HUB career and hub and drive shafts( hub side only).

You will use diff side cv joint and shaft and use w210 wagon/sl600 spline and hub with career.

shaft's spline is same, w210 wagon and e500e.

niibe

 

[gsxr]

Regarding my old past 0-60ft 1.6sec with 2.65diff and stall 3000 converter.

I could easily reach 1.5sec with 3.64 and stall 3000 converter/722.3 trans but broke both R and L shafts with Drag Radial 275-17 Nitto 555R.

WOW! What is your best ET and trap speed (kph) in the quarter-mile at the dragstrip? 1.6-sec 60-foot times are incredible from a 500E!! Do you have a scan of the timeslip?

 

[NIIBE]

Sorry I made mistake 1.6sec o-60ft is another drag car. 500E 6litter with 2.65.stall3000,Nitto had 1.9sec 0-60ft. E/T 12.88 the slip was uploaded already.
And I had broken the T25 spline by using 3.64....

 

[gsxr]

...500E 6 litter with 2.65, stall 3000, Nitto had 1.9sec 0-60ft. E/T 12.88 the slip was uploaded already.
And I had broken the T25 spline by using 3.64....

Niibe, I found the attached timeslip with 12.92 time (and 2.10 sec 60ft). I assume this is also with 2.65 gears. The 190kph trap speed is amazing:
http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/blog-entry-213.html


Can you post the 12.88 slip as well with 1.9 60ft? I have not seen that one... thank you!

 

[NIIBE]

That slip was with 3.64 gear and Nitto but no drag bite condition at Central Circuit straight course Y2011 under the closed condition of Earth Quake. After few year, the Sendai high land had finished re construction.

So 0-60 was very slow than Sendai highland drag strip's sticky Pavement but good final speed even using 245-19inch front.

But It was very sorry that the Sendai High land was already closed last September, there are no drag strip in Japan right now. I should be heading up Thai land drag strip by using of my another pro class racer with team mate.

I hope you will also reach under 13's with 6litter motor by Money gazzler E500E.

Niibe