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500Eboard Management
Manual Transmission
- Thread starter DAS500
- Start date
Elbe Engineering
http://www.imgrum.net/media/1314536576046483018_3536272782
Spec Clutch
http://www.specclutches.com/612384/spec-stage3plus-pressure-plate-g500-sec413f-531741
Shades of grey in-between yet to be outlined on here in great detail. I'm sure it will be sooner or later,
, but some might want to make sure it all works first before sharing their stories to limit the bad mojo from Newman naysayers / modification Gestapo. I've read threads on other forums where people try to move the ball forward and you get two pages of irrelevant non-technical discussion of eww!!! and why??? thread-jacking.
http://www.imgrum.net/media/1314536576046483018_3536272782
Spec Clutch
http://www.specclutches.com/612384/spec-stage3plus-pressure-plate-g500-sec413f-531741
Shades of grey in-between yet to be outlined on here in great detail. I'm sure it will be sooner or later,
, but some might want to make sure it all works first before sharing their stories to limit the bad mojo from Newman naysayers / modification Gestapo. I've read threads on other forums where people try to move the ball forward and you get two pages of irrelevant non-technical discussion of eww!!! and why??? thread-jacking.
There was also this 6sp manual conversion . . .
FS: 1992 500E RENNtech 6.0L, 6-speed manual transmission; 34kmi, $56k (Palm Desert, CA)
FS: 1992 500E RENNtech 6.0L, 6-speed manual transmission; 34kmi, $56k (Palm Desert, CA)
I bought a Jaguar XJ12C from a fellow called Robert Hall. I came to find out that he build aftermarket performance parts for Jaguars including 5 and 6 speed conversion kits for the V12.
He told me that the conversion completely transforms the car and suggested that he can build a conversion kit including pedals and console for any car provided that enough people get together and show interest (by interest I assume a deposit). His website is www.thedrivenman.com
He might be worth talking to for anyone that's serious about this conversion. As a BMW owner, I do know that the Getrag 265 is getting harder and harder to find so a Tremec might be a good alternative.
He told me that the conversion completely transforms the car and suggested that he can build a conversion kit including pedals and console for any car provided that enough people get together and show interest (by interest I assume a deposit). His website is www.thedrivenman.com
He might be worth talking to for anyone that's serious about this conversion. As a BMW owner, I do know that the Getrag 265 is getting harder and harder to find so a Tremec might be a good alternative.
I've seen a 6 speed manual conversion using the Getrag 265 from an E31... he left the BMW M gear knob as well [emoji19]
Aside from my E500, I only own BMWs and can confirm that its a great gearbox, but its been getting very expensive and hard to come by in the last few years so I'm not sure if its worth trying it. A cheaper solution will probably make more sense considering all the additional costs that will occur not including the actual gearbox.
However, I personally believe the 4 speed automatic gearbox in the 500E500 suits it quite well. Yes, its a bit slow and dated, but if you want an engaging and rewarding driving experience, don't buy an old mec [emoji28] they have their own charm and desirable attributes, but a sporty driving feel is not one of them.
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Aside from my E500, I only own BMWs and can confirm that its a great gearbox, but its been getting very expensive and hard to come by in the last few years so I'm not sure if its worth trying it. A cheaper solution will probably make more sense considering all the additional costs that will occur not including the actual gearbox.
However, I personally believe the 4 speed automatic gearbox in the 500E500 suits it quite well. Yes, its a bit slow and dated, but if you want an engaging and rewarding driving experience, don't buy an old mec [emoji28] they have their own charm and desirable attributes, but a sporty driving feel is not one of them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Exactly correct. This has been discussed previously... if you insist on a stick shift, the E500E is not for you.
That said, the 722.3 auto trans is NOT as bad as most people think. The problem is, most people are driving E500E's which have worn, tired transmissions (or, sloppily rebuilt) that do not perform as the factory intended. A fresh, properly-built 722.3 auto works very, very well. If you've never driven one, you may not believe it. No, it won't be as great as the newfangled electronically-controlled autos, but it's fairly close - IMO.
A manual trans option is the biggest plus of a 6 cylinder w124. David Hendy just did a manual swap on a 94 E320 and installed a 3.27 rear end at the same time.
I drove the car before and after. It is a totally different car with the manual trans. It is a total sleeper and the engine just sings. We will be doing the same thing with a 3.6 engine sooner than later. The manual trans is a probably 100 lbs lighter than the auto, too.
I recently picked up a beater 86 300e to harvest the 5 speed swap parts out of.
I drove the car before and after. It is a totally different car with the manual trans. It is a total sleeper and the engine just sings. We will be doing the same thing with a 3.6 engine sooner than later. The manual trans is a probably 100 lbs lighter than the auto, too.
I recently picked up a beater 86 300e to harvest the 5 speed swap parts out of.
Exactly correct. This has been discussed previously... if you insist on a stick shift, the E500E is not for you.
That said, the 722.3 auto trans is NOT as bad as most people think. The problem is, most people are driving E500E's which have worn, tired transmissions (or, sloppily rebuilt) that do not perform as the factory intended. A fresh, properly-built 722.3 auto works very, very well. If you've never driven one, you may not believe it. No, it won't be as great as the newfangled electronically-controlled autos, but it's fairly close - IMO.
What? You nailed it. Absolutely true...
If you want a stick-shift buy a BMW, but if you prefer the essence of "luxury motoring" buy a Mercedes....
It's like Coke or Pepsi, I guess you can't win em all!
It's like Coke or Pepsi, I guess you can't win em all!
First gear start and a freshly rebuilt gearbox definitely wakes these up. The only thing I miss over the .6 in my S55 is the ability to downshift and rev match without accelerating. I could, as Klink suggests, "slap my shifter around like a red headed stepchild" and I often do. But then I miss the paddles. I guess I'm lazy, which is why I prefer my MBs over my BMW M. And why I'm completely uninterested in driving with two feet.
Question for the gurus: might the manual from the SL320 R129 cars work, or is the bell housing different? It might be worth a call (as a start) to call Marc at Sun Valley Mercedes, but that might only net you the gearbox. The rest of the infrastructure is on you. Good luck.
maw
To my knowledge, there are two basic bolt patterns used by MB, the early cars (m110, M116 3.5 , M117 4.5) required a different bell housing to a later alloy engines (m117 5.0/5.6 , M119 etc). I would expect that you can fit a 5 speed from an R129 or a 6 speed from a later SLK320 if you can source one. I think that the v6 engine cars are more suitable as I do know that an M1104 722.6 has a different bell housing due to starter motor location when compared to a 722.6 used in a M119. However, the M112 722.6 would bolt up to an M113/M119.
I think that in Europe, a W210 E320CDI (yes , they had a W210 CDI there) came with a 6 speed option. If it mates up, the gearbox is plenty strong for an M119.
I think that in Europe, a W210 E320CDI (yes , they had a W210 CDI there) came with a 6 speed option. If it mates up, the gearbox is plenty strong for an M119.
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The bell housing bolt pattern between an M104 and an M119 are definitely different.
There is no matching plug and play manual transmission for whatever m117 m119 etc. The early m116 had a different pattern. Plenty times discussed. I had posted about the flywheel and Bell housing adapter some time back (350z).also dkubus and others are working on something
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I almost bought an E23 745i with the M102 K27 instead of the 500E, I've done turbos before VAG 1.8T and BMW N54... They have their own nuisances, but has anyone retrofitted a 265 in a e23 745i with a turbo upgrade? I'd just be interested, I don't doubt it could handle it. V160s need to go back in production. I don't like the idea of Tremecs in a German car. Kinda Bangkok Ladyboy'ish, you can try it, but probably not really something you feel comfortable making public knowledge. Then again that's my perception.
I love how when you look at ZF & Gertrag's product line-up they don't directly compete. Like the first and third base coach doing quasi sign language
I love how when you look at ZF & Gertrag's product line-up they don't directly compete. Like the first and third base coach doing quasi sign language
3.55 gears on a US-Spec E30 M3 Getrag 265 with 0.81 in 5th gear will have an almost identical RPM at 60mph, its less than 90rpm difference, compared to the stock 4spd in the 500E.
Plus you can launch the frig out of it! Not that we're drag racing.
Plus you can launch the frig out of it! Not that we're drag racing.
Any pics or details on Captruff's conversion ? Does he still like it ?
I have a 5-speed tranny, pedal box, speedo, shifter assembly, diff, and driveshaft(s) from an early W124 300E.
Still need to find a M104 flywheel and clutch, before I mate it up to my C36-powered S124 wagon . . .
Anyone have a source for the flywheel in the USA ?
neil
Any pics or details on Captruff's conversion ? Does he still like it ?
I have a 5-speed tranny, pedal box, speedo, shifter assembly, diff, and driveshaft(s) from an early W124 300E.
Still need to find a M104 flywheel and clutch, before I mate it up to my C36-powered S124 wagon . . .
Anyone have a source for the flywheel in the USA ?
Neil:
I had the swap done about 2 years or 20K miles ago. Donor transmission was from a 16V, so it is a dog leg, and it was fully rebuilt before installation. The 1995 E320 wagon has the M104 which uses a CPS that reads from a magnet off the starter ring. I am using the aluminum flywheel, re worked pressure plate, and custom clutch disk that 5thscaleracer aka JC made for this application.
Matt at Leistung Autohaus did the swap for me. The drive shaft was modified for a manual trans and then rebuilt as were the the drive axels. A Wavetrac LSD was installed at the same time since we were already there. The shifter was also rebuilt, the pedal assembly got new rubber pads, and I was able to source a new factory shift knob as well as a new piece of wood for a manual W124.
I'm still running the standard 3.2L M104, but I had a 3.6 being rebuilt for an eventual swap. Additionally, I put in a 8K read tachometer from an early M104 with a 7k redline and although this is not accurate for the moment after I swap the 3.6 and have some additional work done the 7K redline will be a reality.
The car is more enjoyable for me as a manual...this was the plan even before I purchased the wagon.
Jeff
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Thanks Jeff! I assume your tranny came with the flywheel . . .
No they were sourced separately. The 16V M102 flywheel is not compatible with the M104
Jeff
I'm still running the standard 3.2L M104, but I had a 3.6 being rebuilt for an eventual swap. Additionally, I put in a 8K read tachometer from an early M104 with a 7k redline and although this is not accurate for the moment after I swap the 3.6 and have some additional work done the 7K redline will be a reality.
Jeff- what sort of modifications are you doing to the 3.6? I am hoping to get the manual trans and 3.27 lsd diff into my C36 at some point this year.
Jeff- what sort of modifications are you doing to the 3.6? I am hoping to get the manual trans and 3.27 lsd diff into my C36 at some point this year.
I have discussed some things with John Cheng aka W201FTW he is running a CIS M104 in his W201 with a partial Megasquirt Franken CIS. The plan is to tune with a wide band O2 sensor to mitigate any leaning out at higher RPM and then as I understand it remove or move the rev limiter to 7K while advancing spark. This may not equate to any large HP gains, but I hope to increase driveability. For example, I tend to hit the redline in 1st and 2nd gears just moments before I would normally upshift and this irritates me, so if I could get the fuel cut off moved just 500 rpm higher this would solve that particular issue.
Jeff
I will know more if and when this comes together. As I understand it a standard 3.2 ECU will work on the 3.6 but perhaps not optimally. I have already sent in a spare M104 3.2 ECU to Speedtunig and they supposedly tuned it from a 3.2 to a 3.6 The cost was about $300-350.00 IIRC but it has never been tested as the 3.6 is still being prepared. The 3.6 is getting torn down side by side with 600Eric's 3.6 M104 as all parts will be tumbled, plated, and replaced as necessary. I even purchased a BNIB factory ETA to eliminate any issues with that part. This project is not time sensitive to me so it will happen when it happens.
Jeff
Yes, a w124 with a 3.6 swap will run fine with a 3.2 ecu. I used a stock 3.2 one on my wagon for months. I drove down to Speedtuning and had the ecu tuned to 3.6 specs like you are showing. Speedtuning is the only person I know of that will touch these things. I have watched him swap the chips and open them up a couple times.
With that said, the ECU's seems to go bad with no rhyme or reason on the w124 and w202 with the M104.
With that said, the ECU's seems to go bad with no rhyme or reason on the w124 and w202 with the M104.
I have one of those in my shop. It's been aaaaages since I drove it. I really must bring it out.
(Too) soon after acquiring my '92 M104 300CE (with it's ideal 3.06 rear) I began collecting the parts necessary to convert to 5spd...I ended up finding a 190E 2.6 5spd parts car complete, with a 2nd identical gearbox/flywheel/clutch/pedals/hydraulics/etc in the trunk.
All together an easier swap with a CIS-E car I believe, at least as far as finding the correct flywheel.
However, given that the auto box in the coupe performed flawlessly (while I Sportlined the suspension), by the end of that 1st year it took to pull all that stuff together and get ready to install, I decided that I was quite happy with the autobox setup as delivered.
I ended up selling all the relevent stuff to David H. who easily dispersed it around the world...
Still happy 3 years later.
And, for no good reason I have a similar complete 5spd setup (717.410), tho' from a mid-80s 190D, suitable for most any similar vintage 201/124 diesel...Open to a reasonable offer.
All together an easier swap with a CIS-E car I believe, at least as far as finding the correct flywheel.
However, given that the auto box in the coupe performed flawlessly (while I Sportlined the suspension), by the end of that 1st year it took to pull all that stuff together and get ready to install, I decided that I was quite happy with the autobox setup as delivered.
I ended up selling all the relevent stuff to David H. who easily dispersed it around the world...
Still happy 3 years later.
And, for no good reason I have a similar complete 5spd setup (717.410), tho' from a mid-80s 190D, suitable for most any similar vintage 201/124 diesel...Open to a reasonable offer.
Hi, if done it some years ago, look at my nickname and you will find it.
Best Pagodino
