124 Values, Deferred Maintenance, and Parts Quality

[gerryvz]

So, what are peoples' opinions on $5,000 .036s that require the $5K of deferred maintenance? Will people do it?

And is it possible to do a full-bore front-end suspension refirb on an .036 with $560 of Lemforder and TRW aftermarket parts? Don't forget about the early and late LCAs, and the removable ball joints on the early LCAs !!!

 

[gsxr]

I am firmly in the camp of "don't part out / junk a straight, rust-free car just because it need repairs". But you already know this, Honch. Last I checked, MB wasn't making any more 036's. Yes, I know you are very far on the opposite side of that line. Smells like a poll is coming.

 

[Maui]

I say part it out. Don't waste the limited resources on junkers.

 

[Klink]

Junk a straight rust free .036 car? Never. That's just dripping in wrong sauce. No "reasonable" intellectual argument can convince me otherwise...

 

[Maui]

Junk a straight rust free .036 car? Never. That's just dripping in wrong sauce. No "reasonable" intellectual argument can convince me otherwise...

Straight and rust free was not mentioned in the original question? I've seen one $5k .036 and it definitely was not straight and rust free.

 

[Klink]

Straight and rust free was not mentioned in the original question? I've seen one $5k .036 and it definitely was not straight and rust free.

That's an excellent point. Pricewise, I am probably living in the past...

 

[Maui]

When you add emotions into the equation things change rapidly.

Grabbed this chart from Hagerty.

 

[gerryvz]

We're seeing a big bubble. I can't wait to buy when it bursts!



Nobody addressed the question about front end parts !!

 

[Maui]

Personally, I'd spend the extra $200-$300 and get real MB parts. And since I can't help myself it would have to be later LCA's just incase I had a set of big brakes.

 

[alabbasi]

I'd do it in a heart beat and use my 99 SL500 parts car for big brakes and a 722.6 conversion. Might as well have fun.
Sadly, $5k 036's are now a rare sight.

 

[RicardoD]

Beat to crap interiors don't scare you guys?

 

[albdentist]

I'm to the right of Dave on this, why does a car have to be even rust free to restore ? Enthusiasts with other marques have it way worse than we do: ever seen a rust free Jag E type, or a clean Alfa GTV ?
If it's moderate one deals with it and you save the car. As this is a hobby, I don't worry about being financially upside down with it. I will keep the car for years, do it right, spread the projects out over time, and enjoy driving the thing.

 

[alabbasi]

Rust free is kind of important as rusty cars require some real skill to restore which makes the job very expensive and the business full of crooks. I have a 71 280SL that had some rust. It was also in a wreck before so I bought a second shell as for the front clip and had him transfer the sheet metal from the parts car to my SL.

I paid that guy $15k to fix the body, after being unsatisfied with the work and the progress, I pulled the car and took it to another body man who I met after I sent the car to the first guy. He was really concerned about the quality of the work that was done by the first guy, the car at the time was already in primer but he convinced me to sand the car back to bare metal and take the front clip off as there appeared to be rust under it . This is what we he found.









I ended up costing another $15-20k rebuilding the body replacing all the front end sheet metal, fixing a bunch of rust repair which was not repaired but just covered with bondo, putting in a new quarter panel, real panel and trunk floor.

The body is now fixed, but I'm not sure that I'd ever be the right way up with this car. Certainly not after I was ripped off by the first guy. Fortunately W113's are going up in value and I'm not taking any short cuts with this car so it should be worth something when I'm done (not that I have any intention of selling).

Anyway, the moral of the story is that yes, rusty cars can be restored, but in order to do it right, you would have strip the car to bare metal, sand blast the body and do a whole lot of welding. Unless it's a very desirable car, then the juice is not worth the squeeze, especially when there are so many rust free examples.

The guys who fixed my car on the second go around used a massive spot welder to weld up the body. It looks factory. Now moving on to paint, suspension, electrical, chrome, engine and interior. I never want to do another car like this again.

 

[alabbasi]

As this is a hobby, I don't worry about being financially upside down with it. I will keep the car for years, do it right, spread the projects out over time, and enjoy driving the thing.

It really depends on how upside down you can stomach . When it comes to rust, it's always many many times worse than it appears. You only know what you have after the body is completely stripped and back from the sand blaster.

A 280SL is relatively simple to fix compared to a modern car like a W124. Just stripping the body of all wiring and accessories will be a mammoth effort.

 

[ccrelan]

We're seeing a big bubble. I can't wait to buy when it bursts!



Nobody addressed the question about front end parts !!

If my memory isn't shot, I think the early sportline control arms for my wagon were close to $400 each and then the car had to be aligned!

 

[gsxr]

... why does a car have to be even rust free to restore ? ... If it's moderate one deals with it and you save the car.

alabbasi explained it pretty well: "...rusty cars require some real skill to restore which makes the job very expensive..."

I was speaking primarily for the USA market. We can still get rust-free cars here. The ROI for restoring the car rapidly goes downhill, to the point of being upside-down in value, when significant rust is involved. Starting with a $5k rust-free donor, plus Gerry's $10k in repairs (possibly over many years' time, possibly DIY), you end up with $15k in a car that might actually be worth $15k or more.

It makes more sense financially to start with a rust-free car as you'll "only" need to deal with mechanical & cosmetic issues, not structural. In other parts of the world, if you can't obtain a rust-free example, I can understand attempting to resurrect a rusted car. And we've seen it done multiple times, but OMG the hours of labor are insane, and if paying a shop the cost would be astronomical. Cheaper to buy a rust-free car from USA and ship it overseas - which has happened quite a bit, possibly more than we know.

 

[gerryvz]

Restoring a rusty car is completely based on the collectible value of the car. If it's a Pagoda or a Gullwing, or an Aston Martin DB5, or non-MB exotic, it's probably worth the rust repair, if a rust-less or relatively rust-free example isn't available. Simply because the eventual (or even current) value of the car makes such efforts financially worth it.

If it's a significantly rusted-out 6.3/6.9, or a 560SEC, or a 500E, or a 2.3-16 or something like that -- there are plenty of good ones available (patience) that putting the time/effort/money into rust removal is financial seppuku. Minor surface rust is no big deal. This is also why (to the consternation of a few folks here) I say that a significantly rusty 500E that is a ~$5K car is basically a rolling parts car. Because nobody is going to put the time and effort into repairing the rust, when for $10-15K you can get one that's much better. With much less heartburn. The very fact that nobody is going to put much money into properly restoring a $5K 500E, means that it's just going to continue to get driven (for however long it is operable) and then just becomes a parts car anyway......may as well salvage the parts when they are still good IMHO.

As the Al-Man said, the rule of thumb is that for every bit of visible rust, there's usually 5x of non-visual rust on Benzes. It's a good rule of thumb to triple or quadruple the initial rust-repair estimate provided by any restoration shop.

 

[gerryvz]

Beat to crap interiors don't scare you guys?

A good interior shop can make relatively short work of a beat to crap interior.....

 

[gerryvz]

What about the costs on a front-end rubber job for a 500E?!? $560 total parts cost sound about right?

 

[gerryvz]

Straight and rust free was not mentioned in the original question? I've seen one $5k .036 and it definitely was not straight and rust free.

It's a pretty safe assumption that a $5K 500E is going to have some rust ... unless it was 100% a western or southern car.

And then it will still have some rust ....

I certainly would NEVER advocate junking a rust-free $5K E500E. It just has more rust-free parts to donate to better cars

 

[gsxr]

... I say that a significantly rusty 500E that is a ~$5K car is basically a rolling parts car.

I agree with this completely.

There may be some discussion about what constitutes "significant" rust; this is often difficult to determine without a LOT of photos, and removing some plastic body cladding/trim to see what's lurking behind (example: rocker jack hole covers). The one example that sticks in my head was a 500E being sold a few years ago because the threaded hole in the body for the subframe mount was rusted away; there was nothing left for the bolt to attach to. IMO, that is "significant"!!

I certainly would NEVER advocate junking a rust-free $5K E500E. It just has more rust-free parts to donate to better cars

Klink, do you ever get the feeling some people are hopeless? Oy...

 

[gerryvz]

I would say that perforations of body metal around the wheel wells and/or behind the cladding would be significant. Or perforation of the floor or structure of the car. Surface rust is a different story.

 

[alabbasi]

As the Al-Man said, the rule of thumb is that for every bit of visible rust, there's usually 5x of non-visual rust on Benzes. It's a good rule of thumb to triple or quadruple the initial rust-repair estimate provided by any restoration shop.

While this is all correct, we should not distract the conversation from how much Gerry pays for W124 suspension parts. Gentlemen, let's please stay on topic.

 

[gerryvz]

This is a 124 thread, not a 126 thread. Very different suspension setup. Please note that front upper control arms are not relevant to the W124 chassis.



Gentlemen, let's please stay on topic.

 

[gerryvz]

These would be an example of a car that would NOT be worth saving (and wasn't saved -- I believe it's been scrapped in the past 2-3 years). It's located at Van de Velde in Belgium. Images courtesy of Michael Trei, of the M-100 Group. I also have numerous photos of this car taken over my many annual visits to Van de Velde, but don't want to dig them up.

Is this something you think is worth saving, GSXR, given its extreme rarity (6-door W100 Pullmann)?

 

[Maui]

To some it's obviously worth saving and throwing Trump's money at. I have restored quite a few cars when I was into that sort of thing. Very rarely does one recoup the investment. It is definitely a hobby and a labor of love. At my age, now, I have become indifferent and just don't have the ambition I once had. As I have aged I've learned, as painful as it may be, some cars are simply not worth the effort or money. I take the same philosophy to this as I do about boats. I love boats, but it is much better to have a friend with a boat than to own one.

Now if I had Joanna's money that would be a different story.

 

[gsxr]

Is this something you think is worth saving, GSXR, given its extreme rarity (6-door W100 Pullmann)?

That'll buff out.

 

[Ron500E]

It has the rare F&R Zwei Schiebedach option from what I can see.

R

 

[albdentist]

OK guys I get the picture...
Thank u for setting me on the right path.....

 

[Taxi Driver]

These would be an example of a car that would NOT be worth saving (and wasn't saved -- I believe it's been scrapped in the past 2-3 years). It's located at Van de Velde in Belgium. Images courtesy of Michael Trei, of the M-100 Group. I also have numerous photos of this car taken over my many annual visits to Van de Velde, but don't want to dig them up.

Is this something you think is worth saving, GSXR, given its extreme rarity (6-door W100 Pullmann)?
View attachment 50072

Take it to BRABUS and bring say, 5-600 grand€ and it will be Worth it sooner than later

 

[Green]

These would be an example of a car that would NOT be worth saving (and wasn't saved -- I believe it's been scrapped in the past 2-3 years). It's located at Van de Velde in Belgium. Images courtesy of Michael Trei, of the M-100 Group. I also have numerous photos of this car taken over my many annual visits to Van de Velde, but don't want to dig them up.

Is this something you think is worth saving, GSXR, given its extreme rarity (6-door W100 Pullmann)?
View attachment 50072

lol these are apparently the most complicated cars to restore in the world. My recommendation: spend the 40 - 70 grand to restore the interior and body, then buy a crashed Tesla model S pd 85 for 30 grand. Install the motors and as many batteries as it will hold, and then you'd have the perfect car. All the wood, leather, pomp, and circumstance of the best classic luxury with the silent, unyielding torque of modern electric motors and lithium Ion batteries.

Sure, it will cost 100 to 140 grand, but you can't put a price on perfection

Source and entertaining video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LnHdWgLlFI

 

[vatc5637]

What about the costs on a front-end rubber job for a 500E?!? $560 total parts cost sound about right?

When I did this 18 months or so ago, I ended up spending about $900 for parts. Note: parts were all new MB OE and included some non-rubber pieces such as new steering damper, idler arm and tie rods. So I think your estimate is in the ball park.

 

[gerryvz]

Thanks Terry. I actually have a set of Lemforder tie rods for my E500 up in my parts racks that I'm holding for reserve, that I purchased several years ago. The GOOD Lemforder, not the current questionable stuff. I hope the rubber boots don't biodegrade before I need to use them.

 

[Ascension]

s it possible to do a full-bore front-end suspension refirb on an .036 with $560 of Lemforder and TRW aftermarket parts? Don't forget about the early and late LCAs, and the removable ball joints on the early LCAs !!!

Lemforder suspension stuff is fine from my experience. However there is no way in HELL any TRW parts are going on a euro car I own!!
Had enough issues with the Volvos and TRW front end parts to teach me NEVER again!! Lemforter or other documented OE quality parts real OEM on mine or not doing the job!!
This is an example why I refuse to use TRW suspension parts on a euro car.
[video=youtube;CHzVpBF9_Sg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHzVpBF9_Sg[/video]

 

[gsxr]

Lemforder suspension stuff is fine from my experience. However there is no way in HELL any TRW parts are going on a euro car I own!!
Had enough issues with the Volvos and TRW front end parts to teach me NEVER again!! Lemforter or other documented OE quality parts real OEM on mine or not doing the job!!
This is an example why I refuse to use TRW suspension parts on a euro car.

Genuine TRW may be ok. In this case, it was aftermarket TRW and appeared to be reboxed Febi, or more accurately, reboxing the same stuff that Febi is reboxing, of unknown origin (but clearly not OEM).

TRW for 126 chassis MIGHT be ok, depending on what's in the box. Gerry can elaborate on the 126 stuff.

As always, with aftermarket parts... be careful out there!

 

[gerryvz]

I only have experience with a German-made TRW M117 right-side camshaft, which has been working well for 6 years now.