Auto Racing as a Contact Sport

[Hollybrook]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: This thread was cleaved off of Ron500E's "Widebody Restoration" thread, prompted by comments around the racing usage/context of that car by previous owner Kirk Salvatore. The original thread this came from is here.

This car was also never 'raced', to my knowledge it was only ever entered in SCCA Solo1 and Solo2 events depending on the venue. For those who don't know, those classes are just glorified track day classes, where you only compete against other lap times, so never fender to fender.

I'd bet there are many Solo I and Solo II competitors who would not agree with you. Solo I is no longer in existence, but is similar to the SCCA's Track Trial program, and was fundamentally the same as individual qualifying laps for a wheel-to-wheel race. While the intent was for cars to be on the track without being in contact with each other, they were on a real race track and at full race speeds. Even though it is true that you did not actually run wheel-to-wheel, the risk of turning your car into a ball of metal was certainly there, though at a diminished level. What was really removed was the risk of denting body panels due to "rubbing" as the NASCAR boys like to call it. Solo II is now called Solo and remains an active program with the SCCA.

The Solo program has regional, divisional and national champions, and to categorize it as something less than racing is not fair to those who participate.

Back to the subject of this very cool car, kudos to Ron for buying it and undertaking the restoration. I can't wait to see the finished product!

 

[gsxr]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

... What was really removed was the risk of denting body panels due to "rubbing" as the NASCAR boys like to call it. ...

 

[SG-Motorsports]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

I have the SCCA log book which should list the events it was entered in at the time. Also... there is no body damage save for a few stone chips and a "key" mark on the door. All panels are original, for example the trunk still has the VIN sticker that matches the rest of the car.
I would even go as far as to say that all it needs is a good cleaning and buffing to return it to its former cosmetic glory.
The rubber items in the engine compartment... that's another story.

Ron

That's really good to hear. I always wondered if the car had ever been repainted. The great part about that is you get the benefit of both sides of the story: the car has genuine competition history, but none of the horror stories of damage and poor panel repairs so common to race equipment. That was the foundation of the Solo1 and Solo2 classes. The really cool part of this car's history, and what I always admired about Kirk, is that he took a VERY valuable car when it was near new and caged it and decided to put it on the track and enjoy it for the extreme of what it was designed for. Most people, myself included, wouldn't have the guts to do that in fear of writing the car off. Because let's face it, anytime you put your car on track you should be prepared to walk away from it. It's always a risk, even with no traffic.

Every time I saw this car it was always very clean and polished. We used to joke because when Kirk would come in from a run, his first priority would be to wipe the car down instead of check tire pressures and fluids. But it always looked beautiful. That's why it was so painful seeing the craigslist ad every couple weeks with the awful pictures of it in the field with mismatched wheels and looking very neglected. I hope the mechanical resto doesn't break the bank too bad.

 

[SG-Motorsports]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

I'd bet there are many Solo I and Solo II competitors who would not agree with you. Solo I is no longer in existence, but is similar to the SCCA's Track Trial program, and was fundamentally the same as individual qualifying laps for a wheel-to-wheel race. While the intent was for cars to be on the track without being in contact with each other, they were on a real race track and at full race speeds. Even though it is true that you did not actually run wheel-to-wheel, the risk of turning your car into a ball of metal was certainly there, though at a diminished level. What was really removed was the risk of denting body panels due to "rubbing" as the NASCAR boys like to call it. Solo II is now called Solo and remains an active program with the SCCA.

The Solo program has regional, divisional and national champions, and to categorize it as something less than racing is not fair to those who participate.

I'm sure many would disagree, and I can certainly see your point. I genuinely meant no disrespect. Hopefully you can see my point as well, that running Solo is a watered down version of racing. Qualifying (or Solo competition) is an art/skill all of it's own, but I would compare it to more like an appetizer, rather than a main course. Although both can be very tasty! Trying to run a quick qualifying (or Solo) lap is tough, but doing it over and over all while negotiating traffic, well that's why people show up on Sundays.

 

[Hollybrook]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

As someone who has decades of experience at both Solo and road racing, was nationally competitive at road racing and a board of directors member of one of the larger SCCA regions, I have to respectfully disagree. All are racing, though different flavors in my opinion. Yes, the risk to man and machine goes up as you put more cars on the track at one time, but competing against the clock is still a form of racing.

As a long-time instructor at SCCA racing schools and at driving experiences, the scariest thing I ever did in a car was to instruct at track days. With many drivers having much more ego and enthusiasm than skill, and limited safety equipment, I felt this risk was extremely high compared to wheel-to-wheel racing. By your standards, I would put participating in track days above wheel-to-wheel racing!

To me, these different experiences are like wine. Many different types and qualities, but at the end of the day, it is still wine.

Peace!

 

[Klink]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

Rubbing =racing? Hell no!

I could not disagree more with the concept. Rubbing is NOT racing, it IS only wrecking. If I was the tzar of all motor racing, ANY contact between cars would result in immediate disqualification of all cars involved in the contact...

 

[Hollybrook]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

We are somewhat digressing from Ron's thread on his car. Should we take the racing discussion to its own thread? If one of the mods agrees, will you take care of moving the posts?

And I agree with Klink -- there is too much contact going on in racing today. Some is intentional and some is not, but in my opinion it adds to the risk and takes away from the sport.

 

[gsxr]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

Rubbing =racing? Hell no!

I could not disagree more with the concept. Rubbing is NOT racing, it IS only wrecking. If I was the tzar of all motor racing, ANY contact between cars would result in immediate disqualification of all cars involved in the contact...

I forgot to include <sarchasm> (sic) tags to my previous post. Sorry guys. As a former sportbike racer, I agree, zero contact is preferred; and contact on purpose may result in an "animated" discussion afterwards at the offender's pit space!

 

[Klink]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

I forgot to include <sarchasm> (sic) tags to my previous post. Sorry guys. As a former sportbike racer, I agree, zero contact is preferred; and contact on purpose may result in an "animated" discussion afterwards at the offender's pit space!

Oh no, Gixxer! I completely got the
I didn't think for a minute that you were advocating "rubbin"! I was sure that given your background, you were firmly in the zero contact preference group. Still, I'll participate in the group hug...

 

[gerryvz]

Did somebody say "rubbing"?

 

[Klink]

Did somebody say "rubbing"?

Yep! See, that right up there's not racing!

 

[SG-Motorsports]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

As someone who has decades of experience at both Solo and road racing, was nationally competitive at road racing and a board of directors member of one of the larger SCCA regions, I have to respectfully disagree. All are racing, though different flavors in my opinion. Yes, the risk to man and machine goes up as you put more cars on the track at one time, but competing against the clock is still a form of racing.

As a long-time instructor at SCCA racing schools and at driving experiences, the scariest thing I ever did in a car was to instruct at track days. With many drivers having much more ego and enthusiasm than skill, and limited safety equipment, I felt this risk was extremely high compared to wheel-to-wheel racing. By your standards, I would put participating in track days above wheel-to-wheel racing!

To me, these different experiences are like wine. Many different types and qualities, but at the end of the day, it is still wine.

Peace!

Agreed, and well said.

Cheers...

 

[2phast]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

As someone who has decades of experience at both Solo and road racing, was nationally competitive at road racing and a board of directors member of one of the larger SCCA regions, I have to respectfully disagree. All are racing, though different flavors in my opinion. Yes, the risk to man and machine goes up as you put more cars on the track at one time, but competing against the clock is still a form of racing.

As a long-time instructor at SCCA racing schools and at driving experiences, the scariest thing I ever did in a car was to instruct at track days. With many drivers having much more ego and enthusiasm than skill, and limited safety equipment, I felt this risk was extremely high compared to wheel-to-wheel racing. By your standards, I would put participating in track days above wheel-to-wheel racing!

To me, these different experiences are like wine. Many different types and qualities, but at the end of the day, it is still wine.

Peace!

I agree here. As a former enthusiast of "track days" and a instructor, these events are very dangerous. Every event I have ever been to has had at least one car smashed into a barrier, run off the track or rolled and that was the minimum and not counting "rubbing" incidents.

Kirk ran this car at just about every track event I was ever at and he beat on that car hard. I actually have pictures of that car coming off the track at SIR with all the brakes smoking (need to find those, they are quite funny).

He was also the only one at a track day with his own pit crew ;-)

 

[Ron500E]

Re: AMG 6L Wide Body Refurbisment

I agree here. As a former enthusiast of "track days" and a instructor, these events are very dangerous. Every event I have ever been to has had at least one car smashed into a barrier, run off the track or rolled and that was the minimum and not counting "rubbing" incidents.

Kirk ran this car at just about every track event I was ever at and he beat on that car hard. I actually have pictures of that car coming off the track at SIR with all the brakes smoking (need to find those, they are quite funny).

He was also the only one at a track day with his own pit crew ;-)

I'd love to see those pics.
Of course the smoking brakes kind of explains the change to big Wilwood calipers instead of the MB parts bin items AMG nicked.

Ron

 

[036/199]

Motorsport is contact sport.

 

[gerryvz]

My brakes on my 300SEL 6.3 got smoked at PIR once, back in 2001. That was after 6.3 creator Erich Waxenberger did about 5 laps of the track in my car, with me in the passenger seat hanging on for dear life as he drifted it around the corners. PIR used to have this chicane that was super sharp....and for me on this day was quite scary.

Unlike the G-wagen, there is no "oh shit" handle on the dashboard on a W109.....only above the door. I have photos of the smoking calipers when the car was in the paddock area, but unfortunately can't find them at the moment...

Car required a new master cylinder to be ordered that afternoon and installed early next morning. It was funny having the brake pedal go all the way to the floor.

 

[Hollybrook]

Motorsport is contact sport.

Apparently, SCCA Solo can be a contact sport as well -- four cars involved in this one:

That said, I never saw any metal-to-metal contact when I was racing Solo, but a few light poles and curbs were affected.

Racing used to be a more gentlemanly sport. I remember watching Paul Newman when he ran SCCA Nationals and he often pointed competitors by, rather than do anything in his power to keep them behind him. It doesn't seem to be like that anymore, at least where I was racing. Two of my friends had disastrous incidents. One lost his life during a safety warm-up when a car braked suddenly in front of him in the middle of a straight and his open wheel car was launched vertically and landed upside down. He left a wife and two young girls. Another was in a big wreck, released from the hospital, and suffered a massive stroke from a related brain hemorrhage while on vacation with his family a week later. He was permanently disabled from this and had to close his successful business. Personally, I was pretty lucky. In 15 years of wheel-to-wheel racing, I was mostly a front runner and only had three serious metal-to-metal incidents. Two were caused by mechanical failures and one by an insane driver who lost his license over our incident and another on the next lap that left two cars in the trees. My scariest moment was at the American Road Race of Champions at Road Atlanta where I broke my transmission at the end of the first lap and spun at the apex of turn 12 coming onto the front straight with at least 30 cars behind me in a tight pack. Only one of them hit me, and neither of us was injured.

These accidents and other unnecessary ones with not so serious results were part of the reason I left racing. With two young daughters of my own, the massive time commitment and level of risk involved led me to decide to stop at the end of a season. A mid-season race where a car that was about the same lap speed, but quicker in the twisty sections and kept trying lap after lap to bump me and loosen my rear causing a spin, led me to decide to stop mid season so that I would still have a sellable car at the end. That race led to one of those "animated" pit side discussions with the rental driver of the offending car. With the renters being friends of mine, that was his last stint in the car. We were duking it out for second, and his harassment kept me from catching the first place car, even though I ran the fast lap of the race.

It was a very difficult decision for me as racing was my passion and I had a great team and many sponsors that had been with us for over a decade. Looking back, I still miss the excitement of racing, but am happy with my decision. The money from selling off my racing operation funded a boat that our family continues to enjoy many years later. I have only been back to our home track twice in the last decade, once to take my older daughter to an excellent accident avoidance class and once to take my younger daughter to see a race at her request. Both were difficult days for me.

 

[2phast]

On a related note. Your insurance won't cover anything that happens at the track. some people who had accidents were lucky and managed to get coverage by verbiage e.g. "drivers school", "lapping day" etc. but you best not mention the forbidden R word (race). Insurance company's caught on pretty quick though and started rejecting any claims that happened anywhere near a track (I know of several accidents that happened in the pits, and those claims were rejected)

 

[Hollybrook]

That is 100% correct, though some tracks are now offering supplemental coverage for thier track days.

 

[036/199]

The 996 looks better than the GT3 Cup version of it I threw into a wall with 100mph+ many years ago...
A proper engineered factory roll cage and my HANS saved my life and let me walk away with some broken bones and other non-serious injuries.

Working in professional GT racing championships around the world for about two decades I have seen my fair share of accidents.
Not only drivers are at risk,but pit crews as well.
Car smashing in the pit wall next to me,idiot driver not braking early enough and almost running me over when coming in for tire change,weekend warrior team mate dropping the race car on me,just to name a few...

Point is,we try to minimise the risks but drivers and crews are aware that we might not come back from a.day on the track.

Thought so often about quitting,took a break for a season,...always come back to it.