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Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono! (SA brake upgrade problem)
- Thread starter Trae
- Start date
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Hey Jono, are you still considering developing a rear-mount turbo for the 036?
On the subject of SA brakes, I've been running that set-up for a few years with stock master cylinder and, as reported in earlier threads, there is a change of pedal feel. Personally, I welcome the feeling as more sensitive but perhaps that is also attributed to ceramic pads and cryo-treated rotors.
Oh, and there are some nice motorcycles being revealed here...please keep 'em coming (perhaps we need a dedicated thread). I still enjoy old school...
Hey Jono, are you still considering developing a rear-mount turbo for the 036?
On the subject of SA brakes, I've been running that set-up for a few years with stock master cylinder and, as reported in earlier threads, there is a change of pedal feel. Personally, I welcome the feeling as more sensitive but perhaps that is also attributed to ceramic pads and cryo-treated rotors.
Oh, and there are some nice motorcycles being revealed here...please keep 'em coming (perhaps we need a dedicated thread). I still enjoy old school...
Attachments
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Nice bikes Clark. I used to build custom Harleys before I moved to the hills. My last one was a supercharged 130 c.i. FXRS, Arlen Ness-style bike. Still slow as a slug compared to even a mid-engine sport bike. The power & speed of sport bikes has always been a lethal combo in Phoenix traffic though. Morons texting and yacking on the phone have made it 1000x worse in the last few years. Just passed by a fatality yesterday, caused by a yacking female turning in front of a bike on a yellow light. I am unbelievably careful when I ride my XR650 these days...... :-(
Nice bikes Clark. I used to build custom Harleys before I moved to the hills. My last one was a supercharged 130 c.i. FXRS, Arlen Ness-style bike. Still slow as a slug compared to even a mid-engine sport bike. The power & speed of sport bikes has always been a lethal combo in Phoenix traffic though. Morons texting and yacking on the phone have made it 1000x worse in the last few years. Just passed by a fatality yesterday, caused by a yacking female turning in front of a bike on a yellow light. I am unbelievably careful when I ride my XR650 these days...... :-(
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Thanks, I had one of those too, 2007 Superglide Custom, I'll post pics in my thread.
The drivers in Florida are another reason I stopped riding, at 50 my reflexes are not as fast as they used to be. Like a running back trying to get through a defensive line.
I don't know if the news from here makes it up your way but record numbers of hit & run deaths on bicycles
are going on, motorcycles aren't far behind.
Thanks, I had one of those too, 2007 Superglide Custom, I'll post pics in my thread.
The drivers in Florida are another reason I stopped riding, at 50 my reflexes are not as fast as they used to be. Like a running back trying to get through a defensive line.
I don't know if the news from here makes it up your way but record numbers of hit & run deaths on bicycles
are going on, motorcycles aren't far behind.
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Compared to stock 036 brakes, the SA brakes with the same pad compound should be a minor difference, not "omg, what's wrong with the brakes?". Akebono ceramic pads do have a softer/weaker feel when new, it takes a few hundred miles of city driving to properly bed them, after which the feel is much better.
Enough people have done the SA upgrade on both the 500E as well as other 124/129/201 chassis, that is has been proven to have acceptable pedal feel for the vast majority of folks. The MC piston/stroke dimensions are close enough to work well with the SA calipers. At any rate, I'm curious if a new MC will help Trae's problem...
Ditto what Dean said. I thought this had been covered already, but the SA kit does have a slightly different pedal feel compared to stock. AND, the stock early vs stock late brakes have different feel (the later/larger setup has a firmer pedal, IMO). AND, brake pad compound can drastically affect pedal feel. , AND, pedal feel is highly subjective... what one person thinks is terrible, another may think is fine. Lots of variables.
Compared to stock 036 brakes, the SA brakes with the same pad compound should be a minor difference, not "omg, what's wrong with the brakes?". Akebono ceramic pads do have a softer/weaker feel when new, it takes a few hundred miles of city driving to properly bed them, after which the feel is much better.
Enough people have done the SA upgrade on both the 500E as well as other 124/129/201 chassis, that is has been proven to have acceptable pedal feel for the vast majority of folks. The MC piston/stroke dimensions are close enough to work well with the SA calipers. At any rate, I'm curious if a new MC will help Trae's problem...
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Yup, Father time is very unforgiving. When you add in phone use instead of paying attention to your driving, its an instant recipe for death. Very crazy.......
Yup, Father time is very unforgiving. When you add in phone use instead of paying attention to your driving, its an instant recipe for death. Very crazy.......
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Yes, it's on the list...REALLY would love to have stand alone in place as that will simplify things Greatly. I know some of the 928 guys have had luck w/ piggy back on the LH buuuuuuut, I'd prefer more Control.
jono
Yes, it's on the list...REALLY would love to have stand alone in place as that will simplify things Greatly. I know some of the 928 guys have had luck w/ piggy back on the LH buuuuuuut, I'd prefer more Control.
jono
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
And, the 928 version of LH is an older, batch-fire setup. The Sharktuner piggyback looks quite good for those. Unforunately, the MB LH system is newer and totally different, it's sequential-fire, and Sharktuner expressed zero interest in trying to enhance their product to work with MB's. I think Dean already talked with them about this.
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
LOL!! I hate to sound like a sexist, but in my experience I think at LEAST 50% of the females I see driving are also either texting, looking @ facebook, or talking on the phone. Of the three, I'll take the last one any day.......
Don't EVEN get me started on cell phones.
LOL!! I hate to sound like a sexist, but in my experience I think at LEAST 50% of the females I see driving are also either texting, looking @ facebook, or talking on the phone. Of the three, I'll take the last one any day.......
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
On 2 wheels, that's WAY too fast for me! Hell, I start getting iffy at a buck fifty on 4. If you can ride at that speed, how do you keep your balls from crushing the gas tank? They've got to be huge and made of something metallic...
Don't get me wrong, I hope he's just got a squidgy MC. I wish only the best for everyone. None of us have driven his car other than him and Jono, and its possible that any one of us could drive it and come away with completely different impressions than those suggested by our speculation here. At the end of the day, most of this forum stuff is guess work. In our cases, possibly precision guesswork, but still guess work. We are always laboring under the handicap of not having the knowledge that only being there can give us.
Yes, and no on the MC piston area causing alteration of subjective pedal firmness. With all the "give" in a passenger car brake system, what with the acres of lines, squishy friction materials, layers of noise abatement between the caliper pistons and the pads, bearing play, and so on, one will often feel a significant difference in pedal firmness.
This was demonstrated, though unintentionally by MB themselves. I don't know if you had any of these to deal with, but do you remember any of the early 90s 124s with fixed front calipers that sneaked through production with the MC for the floaters? The MCs differed only in piston diameter (they were smaller), and wow those cars had a squishy pedal, which is of course what the PDI guys complained about. Purged the brake fluid from hell to breakfast and they didn't change a bit. I think the reps had a TIN on that (I'm sure you remember those...). I don't remember if there was a service information, red fiche topic or the like on those cars. We had a couple of them in Tampa. IIRC at least one was an 034. Good times.
On 2 wheels, that's WAY too fast for me! Hell, I start getting iffy at a buck fifty on 4. If you can ride at that speed, how do you keep your balls from crushing the gas tank? They've got to be huge and made of something metallic...
Don't get me wrong, I hope he's just got a squidgy MC. I wish only the best for everyone. None of us have driven his car other than him and Jono, and its possible that any one of us could drive it and come away with completely different impressions than those suggested by our speculation here. At the end of the day, most of this forum stuff is guess work. In our cases, possibly precision guesswork, but still guess work. We are always laboring under the handicap of not having the knowledge that only being there can give us.
Yes, and no on the MC piston area causing alteration of subjective pedal firmness. With all the "give" in a passenger car brake system, what with the acres of lines, squishy friction materials, layers of noise abatement between the caliper pistons and the pads, bearing play, and so on, one will often feel a significant difference in pedal firmness.
This was demonstrated, though unintentionally by MB themselves. I don't know if you had any of these to deal with, but do you remember any of the early 90s 124s with fixed front calipers that sneaked through production with the MC for the floaters? The MCs differed only in piston diameter (they were smaller), and wow those cars had a squishy pedal, which is of course what the PDI guys complained about. Purged the brake fluid from hell to breakfast and they didn't change a bit. I think the reps had a TIN on that (I'm sure you remember those...). I don't remember if there was a service information, red fiche topic or the like on those cars. We had a couple of them in Tampa. IIRC at least one was an 034. Good times.
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
The point that I likely could have made better is this: If Trae and Jono are committed to replacing the MC, maybe now is the time to investigate the possibility of using some appropriate version of the later MC if it exists, and if they feel up for the occasion. Easy for me to say, as it's not my money on the line, but I thought It worth considering. It would be a shame to replace the MC and find that it didn't give the pedal Cialis that it sounds to me like Trae is trying to achieve. I'm confident that they got the air out, and I'm confident that if the MC was bypassing, Jono would know it. I am biased in this direction because I have also experienced the softness after the mod, and I don't think I've seen but maybe 2 defective MCs of this design in my life. OTOH, they are 2 decades old now. Where is this article that you referred to? I'd be interested to read it too, for sure. I'll watch for other comments, because this particular subject is still one of great interest to me, as my current 036 has the early iron retrofit stuff.
Yuk...
Complete agreement there, most especially on the subjectivity part. It's just that Trae's posts sounded to me as if he is actually talking about a small difference and was not referring to any kind of "omg, what's wrong with the brakes?" condition (I also realize that you weren't saying he was either...). I am also confident that if any such condition existed, Jono has the competence to address it fully and would have already done so. So since this sounded to me like it was someone simply trying to achieve the firmest possible pedal practical on this car. I commented accordingly. As I stated before, I had done the front caliper set up on my previous 036 before the set up had even hit the street, and I definitely liked it for the size and stamina combined with the light weight. The fact that they looked good inside the evos didn't suck either. But I did find the pedal notably softer. Not unacceptable, but definitely softer when I would have preferred harder. But then dammit, who wouldn't? A brake pedal should be just like a good colonic, high and hard...Ditto what Dean said. I thought this had been covered already, but the SA kit does have a slightly different pedal feel compared to stock. AND, the stock early vs stock late brakes have different feel (the later/larger setup has a firmer pedal, IMO). AND, brake pad compound can drastically affect pedal feel. , AND, pedal feel is highly subjective... what one person thinks is terrible, another may think is fine. Lots of variables.
Compared to stock 036 brakes, the SA brakes with the same pad compound should be a minor difference, not "omg, what's wrong with the brakes?". Akebono ceramic pads do have a softer/weaker feel when new, it takes a few hundred miles of city driving to properly bed them, after which the feel is much better.
Enough people have done the SA upgrade on both the 500E as well as other 124/129/201 chassis, that is has been proven to have acceptable pedal feel for the vast majority of folks. The MC piston/stroke dimensions are close enough to work well with the SA calipers. At any rate, I'm curious if a new MC will help Trae's problem...
The point that I likely could have made better is this: If Trae and Jono are committed to replacing the MC, maybe now is the time to investigate the possibility of using some appropriate version of the later MC if it exists, and if they feel up for the occasion. Easy for me to say, as it's not my money on the line, but I thought It worth considering. It would be a shame to replace the MC and find that it didn't give the pedal Cialis that it sounds to me like Trae is trying to achieve. I'm confident that they got the air out, and I'm confident that if the MC was bypassing, Jono would know it. I am biased in this direction because I have also experienced the softness after the mod, and I don't think I've seen but maybe 2 defective MCs of this design in my life. OTOH, they are 2 decades old now. Where is this article that you referred to? I'd be interested to read it too, for sure. I'll watch for other comments, because this particular subject is still one of great interest to me, as my current 036 has the early iron retrofit stuff.
Yuk...
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Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
The only reason I am thinking of changing the MC is the difference I feel between my 94' E320, 93' 500E, and The 92' SA.
Like most of the jobs I do to these cars, I do because you guys are the "been there/done that" experts.
It is widely known that I am a novice and depend heavily on the joint wisdom of Gsxr, Jono, GVZ, Clark, and now Klink.
Thank you all for responding to my predicament.
The only reason I am thinking of changing the MC is the difference I feel between my 94' E320, 93' 500E, and The 92' SA.
Like most of the jobs I do to these cars, I do because you guys are the "been there/done that" experts.
It is widely known that I am a novice and depend heavily on the joint wisdom of Gsxr, Jono, GVZ, Clark, and now Klink.
Thank you all for responding to my predicament.
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Good morning Trey!
Here's a critical question. You may have already answered it in one form or another, but if you did I missed it.
Was the pedal feel in your three cars roughly similar before you put on the Brembos? They should have been very similar.
If you are only now noticing the extra pedal compliance it is almost certainly nothing more than the relative difference in piston areas that is causing it. It is a normal occurrence with that set up and does not represent a fault so to speak.
The overwhelming likelihood is that you don't need to do anything more with it unless you simply find it too subjectively bothersome.
I never felt the need to do more with mine though I did think about it because I like a harder pedal. I wound up getting used to it and any thoughts about doing something with the MC went on the "well, maybe one day" list cause I had bigger fires to extinguish at the time. The only time it bothered me at all is when I drove another fixed caliper 124 and remembered the extra pedal firmness, so I feel a direct relationship to your current situation.
It's all good,
Klink
Good morning Trey!
Here's a critical question. You may have already answered it in one form or another, but if you did I missed it.
Was the pedal feel in your three cars roughly similar before you put on the Brembos? They should have been very similar.
If you are only now noticing the extra pedal compliance it is almost certainly nothing more than the relative difference in piston areas that is causing it. It is a normal occurrence with that set up and does not represent a fault so to speak.
The overwhelming likelihood is that you don't need to do anything more with it unless you simply find it too subjectively bothersome.
I never felt the need to do more with mine though I did think about it because I like a harder pedal. I wound up getting used to it and any thoughts about doing something with the MC went on the "well, maybe one day" list cause I had bigger fires to extinguish at the time. The only time it bothered me at all is when I drove another fixed caliper 124 and remembered the extra pedal firmness, so I feel a direct relationship to your current situation.
It's all good,
Klink
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Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
In addition to what Klink wrote... does the "mushy" pedal continue as you brake harder? Meaning, does the car stop as expected (particularly from high speeds), but there's just more initial travel in the pedal? If so... this may be normal. The SA pedal feel is NOT the same as the 94' E320 or 93' 500E with stock brakes. It's similar, but you will very likely notice a difference.
The problem here is, how much difference is normal/expected... that's the subjective part. You can always fly out to Boise and drive my wife's 500E with SA brakes for comparison!
In addition to what Klink wrote... does the "mushy" pedal continue as you brake harder? Meaning, does the car stop as expected (particularly from high speeds), but there's just more initial travel in the pedal? If so... this may be normal. The SA pedal feel is NOT the same as the 94' E320 or 93' 500E with stock brakes. It's similar, but you will very likely notice a difference.
The problem here is, how much difference is normal/expected... that's the subjective part. You can always fly out to Boise and drive my wife's 500E with SA brakes for comparison!
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Is it OK for the pedal to travel 1/2 to 3/4 of way to the floor in hard braking?
Also, when sitting at a stop light, you can push the pedal to stop the car and then still continue pushing with a little mushy feel. It does stop the car, but I am not used to that kind of feel .
My wife's 2001 SL 500 has a little of the same feel with her SA, however, it is not the same feel.
Klink, the stock 300/278mm brakes were not as mushy, although they also had some play.
Is it OK for the pedal to travel 1/2 to 3/4 of way to the floor in hard braking?
Also, when sitting at a stop light, you can push the pedal to stop the car and then still continue pushing with a little mushy feel. It does stop the car, but I am not used to that kind of feel .
My wife's 2001 SL 500 has a little of the same feel with her SA, however, it is not the same feel.
Klink, the stock 300/278mm brakes were not as mushy, although they also had some play.
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
The pedal will normally move quite a ways down under hard braking, although I've never measured it. When sitting at a light, with steady pressure on the pedal, the pedal should not move any further down. However if you press harder, yes the pedal will continue to move downward... you'll find the same thing in your other cars too.
The 2001 SL500 has a different MC with unknown internal dimensions, as MB quit publishing them after the mid-90's... they wanted techs to replace the MC, not rebuild them anymore. The 2001 MC is not backwards compatible with the 036, at a minimum the port outlets are larger and the lines won't fit.
The pedal will normally move quite a ways down under hard braking, although I've never measured it. When sitting at a light, with steady pressure on the pedal, the pedal should not move any further down. However if you press harder, yes the pedal will continue to move downward... you'll find the same thing in your other cars too.
The 2001 SL500 has a different MC with unknown internal dimensions, as MB quit publishing them after the mid-90's... they wanted techs to replace the MC, not rebuild them anymore. The 2001 MC is not backwards compatible with the 036, at a minimum the port outlets are larger and the lines won't fit.
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Wonder about an adapter to go from one size fitting to another? i suspect someone makes something, no?
j
The pedal will normally move quite a ways down under hard braking, although I've never measured it. When sitting at a light, with steady pressure on the pedal, the pedal should not move any further down. However if you press harder, yes the pedal will continue to move downward... you'll find the same thing in your other cars too.
The 2001 SL500 has a different MC with unknown internal dimensions, as MB quit publishing them after the mid-90's... they wanted techs to replace the MC, not rebuild them anymore. The 2001 MC is not backwards compatible with the 036, at a minimum the port outlets are larger and the lines won't fit.
Wonder about an adapter to go from one size fitting to another? i suspect someone makes something, no?
j
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
I'm not avoiding you guys on this today, just crazy busy. I still want to see what I can figure out. Additionally, I may have some cars around here that I can look at. for some info / ideas. I am starting to wonder if Trae's brakes are just not well squished in yet??? I'll read and talk more later.
I'm not avoiding you guys on this today, just crazy busy. I still want to see what I can figure out. Additionally, I may have some cars around here that I can look at. for some info / ideas. I am starting to wonder if Trae's brakes are just not well squished in yet??? I'll read and talk more later.
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
For a while now I have felt a small vague discomfort discussing something that a casual visitor to this site may interpret as a "brake problem" under this thread name, especially since this thread was obviously started specifically to complement Jono. I was especially thinking of casual visitors that like to read backwards from the latest post, the same way a lot of people browse a magazine. But I kind of felt too new here to say something about it. I'm not afraid to speak up about things that I think I know something about but I am a complete novice when it comes to forum etiquette. Then I thought "well it doesn't seem to be bothering Jono" Then it also occurred to me "well maybe it does bother Jono the slightest bit and he just didn't want to speak up and say "hey guys why don't we put all this brake discussion on a different thread? A customer posted a compliment to me and you've all gone and diluted it with the rest of this discussion". Then I thought "well you shouldn't be speaking for Jono" which I may have just done...
This forum stuff is not as easy as it looks !
Your Klink
For a while now I have felt a small vague discomfort discussing something that a casual visitor to this site may interpret as a "brake problem" under this thread name, especially since this thread was obviously started specifically to complement Jono. I was especially thinking of casual visitors that like to read backwards from the latest post, the same way a lot of people browse a magazine. But I kind of felt too new here to say something about it. I'm not afraid to speak up about things that I think I know something about but I am a complete novice when it comes to forum etiquette. Then I thought "well it doesn't seem to be bothering Jono" Then it also occurred to me "well maybe it does bother Jono the slightest bit and he just didn't want to speak up and say "hey guys why don't we put all this brake discussion on a different thread? A customer posted a compliment to me and you've all gone and diluted it with the rest of this discussion". Then I thought "well you shouldn't be speaking for Jono" which I may have just done...
This forum stuff is not as easy as it looks !
Your Klink
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Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Trae, well duh, it just occurred to me you may have a useful exemplar right there in your vehicle fleet. Do you still have your 01 SL 500? If you do and it is not too much trouble would you report the Vin number? And take a good look at the master cylinder. You may see some notations right there near the front and rear line fittings. In particular you may see numbers. If you do those numbers are the diameters of the bores for the front and rear pistons. There may also be an H & or a V near those numbers. Just FYI the H is "Hinten" / rear, and the V is "vorn"/ front. This is relevant because dimensionally IIRC, your SL has SA brakes.
Like I said if it's not too much trouble and you are still interested in this topic post up that info.
many thanks either way
Klink
Trae, well duh, it just occurred to me you may have a useful exemplar right there in your vehicle fleet. Do you still have your 01 SL 500? If you do and it is not too much trouble would you report the Vin number? And take a good look at the master cylinder. You may see some notations right there near the front and rear line fittings. In particular you may see numbers. If you do those numbers are the diameters of the bores for the front and rear pistons. There may also be an H & or a V near those numbers. Just FYI the H is "Hinten" / rear, and the V is "vorn"/ front. This is relevant because dimensionally IIRC, your SL has SA brakes.
Like I said if it's not too much trouble and you are still interested in this topic post up that info.
many thanks either way
Klink
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Well,
Put a new master cylinder on today and cannot get rid of air bubbles from right rear caliper.
Pressure bled at 30psi., ASR first, then the rest starting with the right rear.
There is a leak somewhere in the system because the right rear caliper continues to get air bubbles.
Brake feel still mushy.
Double checked all connections. Any ideas where the leak could be coming from.
Oh yea, new SS hoses front and rear.
Well,
Put a new master cylinder on today and cannot get rid of air bubbles from right rear caliper.
Pressure bled at 30psi., ASR first, then the rest starting with the right rear.
There is a leak somewhere in the system because the right rear caliper continues to get air bubbles.
Brake feel still mushy.
Double checked all connections. Any ideas where the leak could be coming from.
Oh yea, new SS hoses front and rear.
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
How much fluid did you remove from each caliper? FSM indicates that 500cc (half-liter) must be bled out from all four corners (2 liters total) any time the reservoir is emptied or removed.
See section "B", first note near the top:
http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Maintenance/94_95/4280.pdf
How much fluid did you remove from each caliper? FSM indicates that 500cc (half-liter) must be bled out from all four corners (2 liters total) any time the reservoir is emptied or removed.
See section "B", first note near the top:
http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Maintenance/94_95/4280.pdf
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
There is almost no chance that is air from inside the hydraulic system. What often happens is that a slight venturi effect is created at the bleed nipple threads on a given caliper. As the fluid rushes by, air is aspirated into the loose threads and you see it in the hose. This occurrence is most common with brand new parts. If you want to test this theory, coat the area around the bleed nipple bore with brake assembly paste and see if your bubbles diminish.
Klink
There is almost no chance that is air from inside the hydraulic system. What often happens is that a slight venturi effect is created at the bleed nipple threads on a given caliper. As the fluid rushes by, air is aspirated into the loose threads and you see it in the hose. This occurrence is most common with brand new parts. If you want to test this theory, coat the area around the bleed nipple bore with brake assembly paste and see if your bubbles diminish.
Klink
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Great point...see it happen all the time, but neglected to recollect/mention as much. Figure a shop would be accustomed to it as well when working on the brakes.
Come to ATL, we can have a jono, klink, trae 500E party..
jono
Great point...see it happen all the time, but neglected to recollect/mention as much. Figure a shop would be accustomed to it as well when working on the brakes.
Come to ATL, we can have a jono, klink, trae 500E party..
jono
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Bubbles are usually introduced at the bleeder screw threads when vacuum bleeding, which is another reason why vacuum bleeding sucks. With pressure bleeding, you shouldn't get any bubbles from the bleeder threads. Adding some Teflon tape on the threads wouldn't hurt, since the sealing surface is below the threads anyway.
Bubbles are usually introduced at the bleeder screw threads when vacuum bleeding, which is another reason why vacuum bleeding sucks. With pressure bleeding, you shouldn't get any bubbles from the bleeder threads. Adding some Teflon tape on the threads wouldn't hurt, since the sealing surface is below the threads anyway.
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
I get bubbles in the hose during a vigorous pressure bleed very often, and it is only air being venturied into the threads. Counterintuitively, the faster the flow, the more pressure applied, the newer the parts (no corrosion products sealing the thread interfaces), and the more open the bleeder, the more this occurs.
Bubbles are usually introduced at the bleeder screw threads when vacuum bleeding, which is another reason why vacuum bleeding sucks. With pressure bleeding, you shouldn't get any bubbles from the bleeder threads. Adding some Teflon tape on the threads wouldn't hurt, since the sealing surface is below the threads anyway.
I get bubbles in the hose during a vigorous pressure bleed very often, and it is only air being venturied into the threads. Counterintuitively, the faster the flow, the more pressure applied, the newer the parts (no corrosion products sealing the thread interfaces), and the more open the bleeder, the more this occurs.
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Damn Right!Great point...see it happen all the time, but neglected to recollect/mention as much. Figure a shop would be accustomed to it as well when working on the brakes.
Come to ATL, we can have a jono, klink, trae 500E party..
jono
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Just curious - do you keep the receptacle bottle held above the caliper, or below it? I hold it above, and almost never notice any bubbles, although I don't count the microscopic ones which are barely visible!
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
In practice, it is very easy to see the bubbles from entrapped air, as there is a distinct character to how the bubbles look, and even how they feel if you are holding the hose. Entrapped air produces the smallest "shock" that you actually feel as it enters the fitting, and the bubbles are much bigger and clearly visible. Just like when you have air in your home plumbing and the bubbles enter the valve and as they exit the nozzle, you feel it, see it, and even sometimes hear it. It's the same, just on a micro scale compared to your faucet. The air sucked in at the threads of course enters past the opening in the caliper body and simply goes through the nipple and through the hose. There is no "shock" character to it, the bubbles are very small, often only just a foam. It never goes away. Sometimes you can play with it to amuse yourself: if you press, pull, or wiggle the fitting while the fluid is flowing, you can see this foam increase or decrease in response to the force. You're "micro" bubbles may even be the same thing.
It is my sincerest hope that whoever may read this realizes that we are only and specifically talking about brakes and brake fluid....
Below, but just because it's convenient with the set ups we use. And that's interesting that you asked, because I can easily imagine that making a difference in the amount of air aspirated into that interface, especially if the hose can "see" the pressure from the brake fluid in the catch jar if you follow that awkward description. Imagine the siphon effect, and also of the fact that it can work in either direction....Just curious - do you keep the receptacle bottle held above the caliper, or below it? I hold it above, and almost never notice any bubbles, although I don't count the microscopic ones which are barely visible!
In practice, it is very easy to see the bubbles from entrapped air, as there is a distinct character to how the bubbles look, and even how they feel if you are holding the hose. Entrapped air produces the smallest "shock" that you actually feel as it enters the fitting, and the bubbles are much bigger and clearly visible. Just like when you have air in your home plumbing and the bubbles enter the valve and as they exit the nozzle, you feel it, see it, and even sometimes hear it. It's the same, just on a micro scale compared to your faucet. The air sucked in at the threads of course enters past the opening in the caliper body and simply goes through the nipple and through the hose. There is no "shock" character to it, the bubbles are very small, often only just a foam. It never goes away. Sometimes you can play with it to amuse yourself: if you press, pull, or wiggle the fitting while the fluid is flowing, you can see this foam increase or decrease in response to the force. You're "micro" bubbles may even be the same thing.
It is my sincerest hope that whoever may read this realizes that we are only and specifically talking about brakes and brake fluid....
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Klink, I know what you mean, I've seen the issues with the bleeder threads before. And I usually get a dribble of fluid running down the back of the caliper as a bonus.
Next time you pressure bleed, for grins, try keeping the bottle above the caliper... see if you have any fewer bubbles!
Klink, I know what you mean, I've seen the issues with the bleeder threads before. And I usually get a dribble of fluid running down the back of the caliper as a bonus.
Next time you pressure bleed, for grins, try keeping the bottle above the caliper... see if you have any fewer bubbles!
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Kudos to Jono, Klink, and Dave!
The "BLAST" bleed method worked with the new master cylinder.
1. Relieve pressure at the ASR bleed SP.
2. Attach pressure bleeder.
3. Open BOTH rear bleed screws.
4. BLAST the brake pedal to the floor and hold.
5. Have helper close bleed screws and SLOWLY release brake pedal.
6. Repeat #4-5.
7. Repeat #4-5 for front calipers.
8. Start engine and open SP bleed valve for ASR until free of bubbles.
9. Close SP bleed valve and let ASR pump charge. (usually around 30 sec.)
I am now officially part of the SA upgrade club!
Kudos to Jono, Klink, and Dave!
The "BLAST" bleed method worked with the new master cylinder.
1. Relieve pressure at the ASR bleed SP.
2. Attach pressure bleeder.
3. Open BOTH rear bleed screws.
4. BLAST the brake pedal to the floor and hold.
5. Have helper close bleed screws and SLOWLY release brake pedal.
6. Repeat #4-5.
7. Repeat #4-5 for front calipers.
8. Start engine and open SP bleed valve for ASR until free of bubbles.
9. Close SP bleed valve and let ASR pump charge. (usually around 30 sec.)
I am now officially part of the SA upgrade club!
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
When I saw Trae's quote "Just hope I can get there with mushy brakes and not hit anyone." I thought, no dammit this thing sounds way worse than anything else that we, or at least I had previously been talking about. Trae and I PMd. He told me that if anything it had only gotten worse since they put on the new MC and that he now had the situation that inspired the above quote. New MCs can be extremely difficult to bleed out. I talked him though the method he described above and we waited to see if it worked or not before we posted anything. Praise Be, it worked!!
This method works well if the MC is already installed. "Bench bleeding" a new MC before bolting it on helps avoid this difficulty, but that's not in any newer MB literature that I know of.
Interestingly enough, some of the newer cars (204, 212 ,etc..) have some huge diameter brake lines coming off the MC, that descend then raise up. These things will not bleed air without this method or something similar, and the literature does describe a similar procedure for those. Not for brake fluid changes, mind you, only for bleeding air, such as after a MC replacement.
My take on this is that Jono correctly fingered the MC as the culprit, and that Trey and his guys simply had trouble bleeding out the new MC after it was installed.
This also confirms what gsxr and others (me too kinda sorta) have said, that the larger caliper pistons resulted in a softer pedal, but that it wasn't in any way a "deal breaker".
A great outcome all the way around.
When I saw Trae's quote "Just hope I can get there with mushy brakes and not hit anyone." I thought, no dammit this thing sounds way worse than anything else that we, or at least I had previously been talking about. Trae and I PMd. He told me that if anything it had only gotten worse since they put on the new MC and that he now had the situation that inspired the above quote. New MCs can be extremely difficult to bleed out. I talked him though the method he described above and we waited to see if it worked or not before we posted anything. Praise Be, it worked!!
This method works well if the MC is already installed. "Bench bleeding" a new MC before bolting it on helps avoid this difficulty, but that's not in any newer MB literature that I know of.
Interestingly enough, some of the newer cars (204, 212 ,etc..) have some huge diameter brake lines coming off the MC, that descend then raise up. These things will not bleed air without this method or something similar, and the literature does describe a similar procedure for those. Not for brake fluid changes, mind you, only for bleeding air, such as after a MC replacement.
My take on this is that Jono correctly fingered the MC as the culprit, and that Trey and his guys simply had trouble bleeding out the new MC after it was installed.
This also confirms what gsxr and others (me too kinda sorta) have said, that the larger caliper pistons resulted in a softer pedal, but that it wasn't in any way a "deal breaker".
A great outcome all the way around.
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Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Well, I was like a kid in a candy store the last two days at Jono's shop. I got to watch his dad smoke a 6.0 AMG quad cam and learned a lot from the masters.
Jono smoked my M117 and plugged many leaks from the fuel injector seals to a few hoses. He also read the duty cycle of the CIS-E and adjusted the EHA.
I am now saving up for a new fuel distributor and fuel injectors because mine is/are old, however, the C126 loves the highway as I put 500 miles on her in the last few days.
I now know what Gerry means when he says that the C126 and the 500E are different animals. I plan on driving the C126 on all long haul journeys and keep the 500Es for short haul/twisties, although the 500Es are perfectly suitable for long haul as evidenced by the DC GTG, I like the couch like feel of the springs in the seats of the C126 along with the softer suspension for long haul straightaways.
It takes a little while to get the feel of transitioning from a 5 link rear end to a trailing arm. The 500E handles WAY better than the C126 old stock suspension.
I do have H and R springs, but have not done anything with those yet.
I will also dream about a Fiend sway bar when I get the time and $$$.
I had another thread here labeled "Somebody stop me", but in the end I just had to have a C126 as the MB disease just will not go away.
Anyway, Jono and his dad are a load of fun and a bank vault of knowledge that all of us value here on the board.
We are extremely fortunate to have him!
Well, I was like a kid in a candy store the last two days at Jono's shop. I got to watch his dad smoke a 6.0 AMG quad cam and learned a lot from the masters.
Jono smoked my M117 and plugged many leaks from the fuel injector seals to a few hoses. He also read the duty cycle of the CIS-E and adjusted the EHA.
I am now saving up for a new fuel distributor and fuel injectors because mine is/are old, however, the C126 loves the highway as I put 500 miles on her in the last few days.
I now know what Gerry means when he says that the C126 and the 500E are different animals. I plan on driving the C126 on all long haul journeys and keep the 500Es for short haul/twisties, although the 500Es are perfectly suitable for long haul as evidenced by the DC GTG, I like the couch like feel of the springs in the seats of the C126 along with the softer suspension for long haul straightaways.
It takes a little while to get the feel of transitioning from a 5 link rear end to a trailing arm. The 500E handles WAY better than the C126 old stock suspension.
I do have H and R springs, but have not done anything with those yet.
I will also dream about a Fiend sway bar when I get the time and $$$.
I had another thread here labeled "Somebody stop me", but in the end I just had to have a C126 as the MB disease just will not go away.
Anyway, Jono and his dad are a load of fun and a bank vault of knowledge that all of us value here on the board.
We are extremely fortunate to have him!
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
One other thing. . . when Jono speaks it pays to listen.
He threw me an alternator belt and said "put it on". I replied that I had never put one on a M117.
He said to loosen three bolts and something about gears, but I did not give that last part any attention.
Looking at the three bolts that I had to loosen, I thought to myself, "wow, that one bolt has some kind of weird washer under it."
Next thing I knew, I had stripped the teeth off of the bolt that loosens the alternator to the tune of $35 to order a new one.
Next time I will listen and ask a bunch of questions on a new, to me, car.
Anyone have a spare bolt with teeth for my alternator?
One other thing. . . when Jono speaks it pays to listen.
He threw me an alternator belt and said "put it on". I replied that I had never put one on a M117.
He said to loosen three bolts and something about gears, but I did not give that last part any attention.
Looking at the three bolts that I had to loosen, I thought to myself, "wow, that one bolt has some kind of weird washer under it."
Next thing I knew, I had stripped the teeth off of the bolt that loosens the alternator to the tune of $35 to order a new one.
Next time I will listen and ask a bunch of questions on a new, to me, car.
Anyone have a spare bolt with teeth for my alternator?
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
Easy part to get from a 560 at a wrecking yard. Sorry that I don't have one in stock to send you.
I blew (literally blew) an alternator belt about 4 years ago on I-45 on the way up to the Centerville Texas MB gathering, about 25 miles outside of Centerville. I was able to drive the car the remaining distance to Centerville on the battery, and then replace the alternator belt in the parking lot of the restaurant where we had part of the meet. A kind Meet Attendee drove the 5 blocks to a Western Auto store and sourced me a Gates belt of the proper size ... I am still grateful to him for doing that for me, gratis. Still running that same belt, too.
It took me about 15 minutes to replace the belt, though I didn't put the smog pump belt back on the car (had to remove it to get at the alternator belt) until after I got home. Folks inside eating hadn't even finished their brisket and pork before I came in and ordered my food.
Found small shreds of that belt all over the engine compartment for months afterward. Even earlier this year found a small shred of alternator bent wedged next to the radiator. Crazy.
Cheers,
Gerry
Easy part to get from a 560 at a wrecking yard. Sorry that I don't have one in stock to send you.
I blew (literally blew) an alternator belt about 4 years ago on I-45 on the way up to the Centerville Texas MB gathering, about 25 miles outside of Centerville. I was able to drive the car the remaining distance to Centerville on the battery, and then replace the alternator belt in the parking lot of the restaurant where we had part of the meet. A kind Meet Attendee drove the 5 blocks to a Western Auto store and sourced me a Gates belt of the proper size ... I am still grateful to him for doing that for me, gratis. Still running that same belt, too.
It took me about 15 minutes to replace the belt, though I didn't put the smog pump belt back on the car (had to remove it to get at the alternator belt) until after I got home. Folks inside eating hadn't even finished their brisket and pork before I came in and ordered my food.
Found small shreds of that belt all over the engine compartment for months afterward. Even earlier this year found a small shred of alternator bent wedged next to the radiator. Crazy.
Cheers,
Gerry
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
I'm pretty sure the parts car has one. As the car is still in one piece. [emoji6]
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Next thing I knew, I had stripped the teeth off of the bolt that loosens the alternator to the tune of $35 to order a new one.
Next time I will listen and ask a bunch of questions on a new, to me, car.
Anyone have a spare bolt with teeth for my alternator?
I'm pretty sure the parts car has one. As the car is still in one piece. [emoji6]
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Re: Blue Ridge Mercedes- Jono!
FWIW: I replaced the power-brake check-valve and line, with a home-built one using a factory ATE check-valve from a 1995 BMW 325i. I had to use hard-plastic brake line in 3/4"-diameter between the check-valve and brake-booster, along with a brass reducer to 2-inches of NAPA 11/32" power-brake vacuum hose. In doing so, I gave more vacuum reserve volume. It firmed-up the brake pedal feel considerably. Also, cost was $20 per assembly vs almost $60 for an OE one.
I thought it was a fluke (just a new check-valve), so this time I purchased another ATE check-valve, but for a Jaguar (which has the smaller 11.8mm ends on both sides, so I only used 5/8"-diameter hard-line. and no adapter. Not as firm.
For both versions, on the engine-side to check-valve, I used power-brake vacuum hose in 11/32" from Napa: NBH H1450 @ $2.69/ft.
Also, Napa has larger power-brake vacuum hose: NBH H1451
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-brake-booster-check-valve-34331160183
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volvo-jaguar-booster-check-valve-black-and-white
neil
FWIW: I replaced the power-brake check-valve and line, with a home-built one using a factory ATE check-valve from a 1995 BMW 325i. I had to use hard-plastic brake line in 3/4"-diameter between the check-valve and brake-booster, along with a brass reducer to 2-inches of NAPA 11/32" power-brake vacuum hose. In doing so, I gave more vacuum reserve volume. It firmed-up the brake pedal feel considerably. Also, cost was $20 per assembly vs almost $60 for an OE one.
I thought it was a fluke (just a new check-valve), so this time I purchased another ATE check-valve, but for a Jaguar (which has the smaller 11.8mm ends on both sides, so I only used 5/8"-diameter hard-line. and no adapter. Not as firm.
For both versions, on the engine-side to check-valve, I used power-brake vacuum hose in 11/32" from Napa: NBH H1450 @ $2.69/ft.
Also, Napa has larger power-brake vacuum hose: NBH H1451
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-brake-booster-check-valve-34331160183
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volvo-jaguar-booster-check-valve-black-and-white
neilAttachments
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