EGR disable

[jnes]

Okay. The thing is that my car's intake manifold is currently dissassembled for replacing all gaskets, seals and for cleaning. I noticed that there is quite much black residues from EGR system and this stuff is quite sticky and hard to remove/clean.

Is it possible to disable EGR without having limp mode or fault codes? Has anyone done this modification?

I was planning to disable EGR by adding thin metal plate between EGR valve and intake manifold

 

[Taxi Driver]

Hi, no limp home, this is what I will have to do on the E50 AMG conversion, the E50 cyl.head does not have the EGR hole bored out
and finding what you did a lot of sooty greasy residue in the plenum chamber AND at the underside of the throttle disc, TBA neck.

Of that you could not find any such matter in the E50 plenum or TBA just clean aluminium although very rough surface.
I belive that gunge does not do the idle any good and I will do the same to the E60 AMG motor. If you take it apart for cleaning
inside and the TBA throat you might aswell remove the EGR pipe and block off the holes.

The air injection on the other hand may have som effect to the lambda value and the heating up time of the catalysts, maybe
and that is even on the E50 ready to connect the air inj. pump. Roger

 

[J-Sauce]

Adding a plate between the egr and the manifold will only accomplish the same thing the carbon deposits are already doing. This has been discussed elsewhere, but you may be able to "roto-rooter" the egr tube with a wire mounted in a drill. My suggestion is to remove your manifold and sandblast the egr tube which will remove all of the deposits quickly and thoroughly. I recently did this job, and if you had all of the necessary gaskets in hand ready to go, you could probably have everythig said and done in an afternoon including removal and reinstallation.

 

[Maui]

Speaking as an absolute MB novice, I can say on the Ford carb to EFI conversions I have done I completely eliminated the EGR systems with no issues at all. Some will say you'll get better mileage with it but I have never had the opportunity to run a before and after. It's certainly greener if that is your thing. Again, I am troll when it comes to MB, but that's why I'm here to learn.

 

[Taxi Driver]

J-Sauce, with all due respect, I was under the impression the issue here was, and still is for me, once and for all get rid of that sticky shitty moisture
down below, i.e. EGR delete alltogether. You must have been thinking about the ammount of residue in there and on the throttle disc.

Often a quick remedy when youre car has an unstable idle and occationally stops, a sticking throttle can and will cause problems.
I think many, often reported here, idling issues may together w other of age and clogged nozzles in the crankcase breathing system be a part
of the problem. Study the crank case ventilating sheme and description for a while, together w the vaccuum system. Roger

 

[400Eric]

I'm all for being green, but all too often EGR causes more trouble than it's worth. I have eliminated pinging problems on several cars in the past just by eliminating EGR. I'd like to be able to do the same for my M119s.

Regards,
Eric

 

[jnes]

Me too. I'm currently studying environmental engineering at university but I've seen lots of issues in different cars caused by EGR system, especially in diesel powered cars. Diesel cars are popular in Finland so there are lots of threads in different car forums how to disable EGR system. Probably EGR is not so big issue in gasoline cars than in diesel cars..

In this link you may see how EGR system smoothly blocks whole intake manifold. (intake manifold is from CDI mercedes)
http://www.mese.fi/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9079

-jnes

 

[Taxi Driver]

Eric, right again, as the EGR here is a very unrefined devise w no feedback to the LH, we really have to suspect the function or reduction
of emissons so the "green" part we can overlook. To make this motor more "green" and more economic to drive, put the $€ effort
in the ignition department instead and be rewarded by the performance of a really sweet motor. Roger

ps. jnes,without digging too deep into that matter (diesels) disfunction and expensive repair is what waits around the corner....

 

[Maui]

Again speaking from my past experience with Ford EFI systems, the EGR system also allowed warm engine air to circulate around the a portion of the throttle body. This, I guess, it was intended to help cold starts. EGR stands for Exhaust Gas Recirculation. It is supposed to allow for unburned gases to be recirculated through the system. On the '80s and '90s Fords the main reason people deleted them on their hot rods was primarily to clean up the engine compartment. The smog pump and all the EGR crap was removed and it really cleaned up the engine compartment. There is a blocking plate that you installed between the throttle body and the intake manifold which simply blocked the air from moving past the throttle body. Depending on which heads you were running there were also some ports that needed to be blocked as well.

 

[Taxi Driver]

Maui, " EGR stands for Exhaust Gas Recirculation. It is supposed to allow for unburned gases to be recirculated through the system."
Wrong, as it say Exhaust Gas and that is already burnt in the combustion if not you probably have a bad ignition and or bad oilconsumtion.

I do not want that in the intake system. The unburnt gases you refer to, are the *blowby* gases in the crankcase
wich together w the petrol fumes from the charcoal cannister, goes via the 10mm plastic tube starting at the front of the
LH valvecover leading to each side of the intake manifold and therefrom to each intake port, also there is the rubber hoose from the back of the RH valvecover leading to the TBA just above the throttle disc, regenerated and burnt in a sound motor and would not
cause any exessive emissons. The M119 980/5 ME does not have EGR.

The M119 does not need any preheating, rather the opposit I say. Roger

 

[036/199]

The block off plate on the block you get from Mercedes:



The replacement idler pulley to ditch the pump as well:



The manifold block off plates you have to build yourself:

 

[jnes]

Raikku, do you have a part number for that block off plate?

 

[036/199]

Raikku, do you have a part number for that block off plate?

I will find it out,EPC says this item is not valid.

But I think the number is on the Microfiche the dealer has,will ask next time I am there and report back.

The part number for the idler pulley is 1192340939

 

[Maui]

Maui, " EGR stands for Exhaust Gas Recirculation. It is supposed to allow for unburned gases to be recirculated through the system."
Wrong, as it say Exhaust Gas and that is already burnt in the combustion if not you probably have a bad ignition and or bad oilconsumtion.

I do not want that in the intake system. The unburnt gases you refer to, are the *blowby* gases in the crankcase
wich together w the petrol fumes from the charcoal cannister, goes via the 10mm plastic tube starting at the front of the
LH valvecover leading to each side of the intake manifold and therefrom to each intake port, also there is the rubber hoose from the back of the RH valvecover leading to the TBA just above the throttle disc, regenerated and burnt in a sound motor and would not
cause any exessive emissons. The M119 980/5 ME does not have EGR.

The M119 does not need any preheating, rather the opposit I say. Roger

It is exhaust gases, but those gases contain a small amount of un-burnt gas. The very reason for catalytic converters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation

The PCV system is a method for allowing crankcase gases and pressure to escape.

Again, I am not familiar with the MB systems. On the 408 stroker that I built I maintained the PCV system intact. There is a PCV valve at the back of the intake and hose from the oil breather to the throttle body.

 

[gerryvz]

My understanding is that EGR takes a small percentage of the exhaust gases, from the exhaust manifold, and injects them back into the incoming air, in the intake manifold, traveling into the combustion chamber. It is primarily intended to reduce NOx emissions.

EGR does not have to do with crankcase vapours. Crankcase vapours (i.e. "blowby") is handled by the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) system, which recycles these gases back into the intake system and also connects to a fresh air source.


Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Maui]

My understanding is that EGR takes a small percentage of the exhaust gases, from the exhaust manifold, and injects them back into the incoming air, in the intake manifold, traveling into the combustion chamber. It is primarily intended to reduce NOx emissions.

EGR does not have to do with crankcase vapours. Crankcase vapours (i.e. "blowby") is handled by the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) system, which recycles these gases back into the intake system and also connects to a fresh air source.

Cheers,
Gerry

You are absolutely correct. Two different animals.

 

[Taxi Driver]

Yeah , right but you don't have to go through the combustion one more time, the blowby and petrol fumes are enough and illegal
to dump into the atmosphere, burn them and let the catalysts do the rest, the nox we will have any way. Roger

 

[Taxi Driver]

That first plate is to block off the air injection hole, this you find on the M119 98* ME the E50 motor did have one but all
the bores and distribution holes are ready to use, I will be running the air injection pump as intended all the way only
deleting the EGR function but leave the EGR valve in situ. Roger

 

[gsxr]

My understanding is that EGR takes a small percentage of the exhaust gases, from the exhaust manifold, and injects them back into the incoming air, in the intake manifold, traveling into the combustion chamber. It is primarily intended to reduce NOx emissions.

EGR does not have to do with crankcase vapours. Crankcase vapours (i.e. "blowby") is handled by the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) system, which recycles these gases back into the intake system and also connects to a fresh air source.

As Maui said... 100% correct.

Note that it is the PCV system which can contaminate the throttle plate on the ETA. The EGR inlet is below the ETA and EGR will not leave deposits on the ETA, only inside the intake manifold.

 

[Taxi Driver]

Dave, are you sure about that? recently I have been looking and cleaning into 3 inlet manifolds, 2LH 1ME, that clearly show,
the ME intake (E50) almost clean as a vistle! No EGR but the same PCV
The two LH show the same pattern of, black sticky stuff inside the plenum and stacks there from thinning out a bit near the intake ports.
Especially the underside of the TBA discs were very dirty, nothing on the upside, and that is were the main PVC hoose has it's outlet.
I say once again no deposite on the PCV side, the other smaller pipe wich also connect the petrol fumes to be injected together w the
crankcase gases at idle when the throttle is almost closed and the total vaccuum is at it's highest into each intake port via the canal in the
the intake runner flange. Very small holes in the inl. port gasket controll the flow, and you know what, in this mode, as Gerry say
the so called * fresh air source * comes from the reverse flow in the thicker PCV hoose, i.e. taking air from above the
TBA trottle disc, you know the big hole in the housing But you all know that, don't you. This explanation goes for the more novice D.I.Y guy.

Soon I will have a look inside the 110.000km E60 motor and see how much residue buildup it holds, plenumvice, you all will see. Roger

pictures show manifold canal,gasket w holes , description of PCV , idle and low partload, upper partload and full load flow sheme.
I'm sorry but I could not get them turned right but anyway...

 

[gsxr]

Yep, the other end of the EGR tube, where the exhaust gasses enter the intake, is inside the manifold below the ETA. So the EGR can't mess up the ETA, at least not above the throttle plate.

The larger PCV tubes (functional at upper load and WOT) pull oily crankcase vapors into the middle of the ETA right above the throttle plate. The smaller tubes are functional at lower part load and pull vapors directly into the intake.

I've never had any EGR issues on any of my cars, and since there's no power gain, I never had any interest in deleting it. Plus, if you disable EGR on a USA-spec car, it will trigger the Check Engine Light on the dash.

 

[gerryvz]

I can very very definitely tell you that the EGR on the M104 enters the intake manifold just BELOW the ETA, where it mounts onto that cast piece. I'd expect the M119 to be the same. This is the "infamous" EGR tube that gets blocked where it enters the intake manifold.

This is doubly proven by what I said in earlier posts ... I went down THROUGH the ETA BELOW it where this tube enters the intake manifold ... rotated the ETA butterfly up so I could get a stiff L-shaped wire through there and into the end of the tube.

See the attached photo ... where the ETA mounts and where the EGR tube enters the manifold....

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Taxi Driver]

Dave, have it your way, no matter to argue about but it is obvious, the non EGR M119 was bone dry inside the plenum, 180 000km
and if a motor was that worn to shower oily crankcase gases it would have other issues also.
Explain why only the underside of the throttle is contaminated remeber it is the side away from the PVC hole and nothing but under the disc.
The smelly stuff is in my mind from the exhaust gases and hot as they are it burns and stick to the plenum and I think it does no good in there.
How does the US spec. M119 detect no EGR? I don't think the feedback from the O2 snsor is that accurate or is the Lambda value set so tight as a lot of VW's round the 90ties were, flashing ever so often the motor lamp that Volks Wagen deleted it in the coming models,
they were tired at the service shops to have customers in and out because the manual said,,
contact the dealers workshop allredy,, Roger

 

[Taxi Driver]

I can very very definitely tell you that the EGR on the M104 enters the intake manifold just BELOW the ETA, where it mounts onto that cast piece. I'd expect the M119 to be the same. This is the "infamous" EGR tube that gets blocked where it enters the intake manifold.

This is doubly proven by what I said in earlier posts ... I went down THROUGH the ETA BELOW it where this tube enters the intake manifold ... rotated the ETA butterfly up so I could get a stiff L-shaped wire through there and into the end of the tube.

See the attached photo ... where the ETA mounts and where the EGR tube enters the manifold....


Cheers,
Gerry

Gerry, this is what you expec to see inside the M119 plenum, on the bottom adjacent to the TBA you see the blocked off
EGR tube mounting hole. Can anyone tell what that is, blocking the EGR tube and ports/valve, that black stuff, sure it's not from
the inside of the crankcase? Roger

 

[gsxr]

Dave, have it your way, no matter to argue about but it is obvious, the non EGR M119 was bone dry inside the plenum, 180 000km and if a motor was that worn to shower oily crankcase gases it would have other issues also. Explain why only the underside of the throttle is contaminated remeber it is the side away from the PVC hole and nothing but under the disc. The smelly stuff is in my mind from the exhaust gases and hot as they are it burns and stick to the plenum and I think it does no good in there.

Does the oily gunk in the manifold really hurt anything? It's not pretty, but it also doesn't seem to reduce power. Sure, I'd like a shiny clean intake also, but I don't think it's worth the hassle to achieve that goal. I only have one 119.98x engine and I haven't looked past the ETA to see if the intake is cleaner inside than on the .97x engines. The EGR (combined with PCV vapors) will cause the brown coating inside and it could get on the underside of the ETA. *shrug*

How does the US spec. M119 detect no EGR? I don't think the feedback from the O2 snsor is that accurate or is the Lambda value set so tight as a lot of VW's round the 90ties were, flashing ever so often the motor lamp that Volks Wagen deleted it in the coming models, they were tired at the service shops to have customers in and out because the manual said,, contact the dealers workshop allredy,, Roger

US cars have a Diagnostic Module (DM) that collects data from other modules and determines when faults are present that could affect emissions. I believe it senses intake manifold pressure vs MAF airflow, which will change slightly when the EGR valve is open. It might use O2 values as well, I'm not sure. Regardless, the DM knows when EGR isn't working, triggers a code, and a CEL.

Gerry, this is what you expec to see inside the M119 plenum, on the bottom adjacent to the TBA you see the blocked off
EGR tube mounting hole. Can anyone tell what that is, blocking the EGR tube and ports/valve, that black stuff, sure it's not from
the inside of the crankcase? Roger

Looks like baked oil vapor to me.

 

[Taxi Driver]

Dave, you always have the answer,"Looks like baked oil vapor to me."well allright but inside what is blocking the tube, is not that exhaust gas
residue? That gunge or smear, whatever, is what is bothering me, on and around the throttle disc, don't say that is not of any importance.

I can only repeat myself, how can it be, the plenum Ferry has been there again, in the E50 manifold cleaning, no?

For anyone interested I will post what I find inside the E60 intake and its portmatch, porting if it resembles the E50 or betters it, I also
will try to compare the camshafts, hope it will end this story. Roger

Sorry for the *Ferry* FAIRY it shall be

 

[gsxr]

Beats me, Roger. However, I don't think one single .98x engine makes a solid case. If many .98x engines are all sparkly clean inside, then yes, you may have found the answer to your question.

 

[400Eric]

Yeah , right but you don't have to go through the combustion one more time, the blowby and petrol fumes are enough and illegal
to dump into the atmosphere, burn them and let the catalysts do the rest, the nox we will have any way. Roger

Yes.

Like I said before, I'm all for being green, but when the cost for a slight decrease in NOX emissions is an increase in other emissions, due to a loss of combustion efficiency, and/or you are suffering a decrease in fuel economy, you have to ask just how "green" EGR is.

Plus I can't stand the disruption to flow that big ole EGR delivery tube is causing in the plenum. Most other engines have their EGR plumbed in a less intrusive way.

 

[Taxi Driver]

Yes.

Like I said before, I'm all for being green, but when the cost for a slight decrease in NOX emissions is an increase in other emissions, due to a loss of combustion efficiency, and/or you are suffering a decrease in fuel economy, you have to ask just how "green" EGR is.

Plus I can't stand the disruption to flow that big ole EGR delivery tube is causing in the plenum. Most other engines have their EGR plumbed in a less intrusive way.

+2 there Eric, thats why I'll go throug the removal of the very same on the E60 motor and cleaning up once and for all!

Dave, shure hope so, maybe I have a scoop here, think I'll buy one more E50 motor. Roger

 

[Christian_K]

I disabled my EGR simply by using a 0.5mm thick sheet of brass metal. I cut/shaped it and placed it at the point, where the EGR "line" comes from after the EGR valve from the upper intake-manifold and connects via 2 bolts to that metal tube, that later ends inside the lower manifold. I have no issues whatsoever.

I bought a 10/1995 CL500 with 119.980 engine and 170.000KM and will pull this engine in the near future for some maintenance and will doing some pics from inside the lower intake manifold.

 

[500AMM]

I will find it out,EPC says this item is not valid.

But I think the number is on the Microfiche the dealer has,will ask next time I am there and report back.

The part number for the idler pulley is 1192340939

That part number is for the mounting bracket only without the idler pulley.

The complete air pump replacement bracket is A 119 230 02 42 for 8-slot serpentine belts,
and A 119 230 03 42 for the later 6-slot serpentine belt.
See post #13: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...failure-any-option-to-remove-disable-the-pump

Useful thread BTW!

-a-

 

[jouniu]

Here is pdf with different configurations of M119 engine with and without airpump.