Smog related/EGR system: P0410 Secondary Air Injection ports clogged

[Stevester 500E]

My 254k engine runs great but it didn't pass smog. The emissions passed but the technician didn't pass the EGR system and the visual inspection.

EGR. Thought the techs are not supposed to go into detail, this guy did. He said my egr valve functions but that there is a clog somewhere in the engine itself.

I have heard of a few other stories of this in the M119 heads. I did not find anything on this matter here on 500eboard. Here is a link to another forum.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w14...ondary-air-injection-cylinder-head-ports.html

Does anyone know if there is a successful way to clean this passage that is in the heads without removing the heads and without risking damage to the engine?

The visual inspection that failed was that he looked underneath and saw cats that were not legal in California - aftermarket mini cats.

Where is the least expensive place to buy California legal cats?

I should just move to Idaho or somewhere that doesn't have such strict smog laws, I mean, the car passed emissions. Granted my car would run better with a properly functioning egr system and stock cats. . . . but gee wiz .

In Socal in case you know a good smog repair technician.

Thanks

 

[gsxr]

I should just move to Idaho or somewhere that doesn't have such strict smog laws, I mean, the car passed emissions. Granted my car would run better with a properly functioning egr system and stock cats. . . . but gee wiz .

Or, just sell it to some guy in Idaho who runs a home for wayward 500E's.

Magnaflow has a direct fit catalyst # 23573 but sadly, it is not CARB legal. I don't know what the options are for CARB-compliant cats. New OE cats are $2200 from parts.com, ouch. Best bet would be to find someone parting out a 400E and buy the stock catalyst pipe from them (same pipe is used on all years 400E/500E/E420/E500, 1992-1995). Has to be from a private party though, salvage yards are prohibited from selling used ones.

The EGR tube might be plugged, I think you need to completely remove the intake manifold to clean that out. Not fun. This is when you need to figure out if it's worth investing more money in the car, or not.

 

[Stevester 500E]

Just my thoughts exactly. Well I do like the car, but it might take too much time and money to fix it up.
But it is interesting I haven't heard of this secondary air injection clogging here on this forum.
I guess the passages are very narrow. I thought someone would have come up with a roto-rooter type of gadget to clean this passage.
I hear it's only the passage side head that gets clogged.

Surely you must have a California legal set of cat/pipes on one of your graveyard 500e or e420's !
Price?

 

[gerryvz]

I don't know that the 119s have the same EGR tube plugging issue that the 104s do.

In any case ... very Stevesterian!!

Cheers from The Marriott Copley Square, Boston (I pahked the cah)
Gerry

 

[J-Sauce]

Yes, the m119 egr tube clogs the same way the 104 tube clogs. The head passages for the egr are less likely to clog. I recently had my manifold apart (and the heads off actually) and the tube was nearly, if not completely clogged. I removed it and was able to sand blast all the crud out of it. You could roto-rooter it, but you wouldn't/couldn't do it on the car. All tht crud would end up in the intake manifold and eventually in the combustion chambers. See the recent manifold rebuild thread on Benzworld, as there is a pretty good picture of what a clogged egr tube looks like.

I'd say you could get away with restoring the manifold and egr tube for around $2-300 depending on the amount of upper breather hoses you need to replace. Those are factory only parts and $$$. Around $150-$200 for 6-7 hoses and connectors.

 

[Stevester 500E]

But the clog was in the heads too right, so just uncogging the manifold won't completely solve the issue?

 

[edcarls]

P0410 Secondary air injection system malfunction does not necessarily mean clogged air injection port. I chased P0410 error code on my 97 R129 for a year.

At cold start the air pump blows fresh air to the exhaust manifold and the O2 sensor reads a lean exhaust gas. So, the 02 sensor sends signal to enrich the air/fuel mixture. The purpose is to heat the cat up to its optimum operating temp fast and produce a clean exhaust gas.

P0410 is an error recognized by the ECU when it can't sense lean exhaust gas when the secondary air pump is activated. So, check and clean (or replace if defective) all the secondary air pumps hose and valves including the 02 sensor.

If after checking and replacing defective parts you still get P0410 and you are certain sure it is clogged injection port hole, you can modify the secondary air pump and ECU communication and eliminate P0410 with no material impact to the engine and avoid costly head work.

I prefer not to discuss the details. PM me if needed.

 

[samiam44]

Sounds like we need a GVZ writeup on cleaning the air injection ports!!!

This would work better if they are restricted than completely clogged. On a similar but different note- I was buying a bearing at a small engine store and they have upper engine treatment for 2-strokes to remove carbon deposits. Basically remove the plug, fill cylinder w piston at TDC... let it sit , crank it to blow out excess liquid, insert plug and start...
I was considering this as a service to get rid of any accumulated carbon around rings.


Michael

 

[gsxr]

FYI... there is no P0410 code on the E500E. P0410 is an OBD-II code and our cars are OBD-1. Not sure how that code got associated with a 500E. :?:

Also, since these cars are OBD-1, the smog shop cannot check how long it has been since the CEL has been cleared. If you have a CEL, you should be able to clear it yourself just before driving to the smog test. Most of the time, it takes at least 2-3 restarts before the CEL comes back on. It might stay off long enough to pass inspection. If not, you'll need to fix whatever is causing the CEL to pop up. I am 99.99% certain that the smog places won't check codes on any OBD-1 car (maybe Glen can chime in here).

How did they know the EGR and/or air injection was a problem? I had thought the OBD-1 cars in CA received a visual inspection and tailpipe sniff, but that was about it.

 

[J-Sauce]

No, my head ports were not clogged. If you were really set on leaving the manifold in place, I suppose you could remove the egr and stick a coat hanger or something down the port, through the tube into the manifold. Remove the throttle body and vacuum out the debris as you jimmy the hanger around knocking it loose. That would only set you back the price of the egr gasket, throttle body to manifold gasket, and dry cleaning for 1 garment for the hanger.

 

[gsxr]

That might help the EGR issue, Justin. But how about the cats? Can you buy CARB-compliant aftermarket cats, or are you forced to get OE?

 

[KEARYB1]

I will tell you what I did on my 1992 500e. I kept getting code 5 egr codes. Took off egr valve and poured a little bit of acid in port and let it sit a few hours. I then put back on the egr valve, started the car and was amazed on how much soot blew out the tailpipe. The car ran terrible for about 5 min at idle. I then went out for a blow out test run and I have not seen a code 5 in over a years time. Just as a tip. Don't use acid at full strength. Dilute with water. If too strong and left in ports too long, It could cause damage. Use common sense!!!
Hope this helps and safes money for our 500e fans!!!
NO HEAD REMOVAL NEEDED SAVES BIG $$$$$$$$

 

[J-Sauce]

The best way to deal with the cats is to use a smog station that isn't anal (aka lazy) about the visual. Never actually had anyone peak under my car or question me as to why my car (being a very early 92) has no CEL at all. I've heard some stations won't even touch a car without a CEL.

 

[gsxr]

The best way to deal with the cats is to use a smog station that isn't anal (aka lazy) about the visual. Never actually had anyone peak under my car or question me as to why my car (being a very early 92) has no CEL at all. I've heard some stations won't even touch a car without a CEL.

I was thinking the same thing... if the car passes the tailpipe requirements OK, you should be able to find a "lazy" shop that won't be so picky. Problem solved!

 

[samiam44]

snip " Took off egr valve and poured a little bit of acid in port and let it sit a few hours. "

Maybe you can elaborate a bit... lots of type of acid and strength..

 

[gsxr]

I hope he meant solvent, not acid.

 

[KEARYB1]

No, I meant acid. I used acid for cleaning wheels from detail dept. I diluted with water probably down 30%. Poured a few ounces only. It worked for me. Please only try at your own risk. I have not seen that code 5 again since!!!!
No heads pulled. HA HA

 

[gerryvz]

It is best if you have a clogged EGR breather tube to replace the tube with a new one. One that gets "reamed" or cleaned out will leave carbon residue inside of the tube, which will serve as the base to attract & build up new carbon blockage quite rapidly. New tubes aren't horribly expensive.

Cheers from the Embarcadero, San Francisco
Gerry

 

[J-Sauce]

Sand blasting and engine degreaser got mine good as new. Absolutely shiny without a spec of carbon in either end.

 

[Stevester 500E]

2 years ago a lazy tech passed the visual. BTW, the way they check egr function is with vacuum pump. He didn't check codes, I cleared them right before going in for t

 

[gsxr]

It is best if you have a clogged EGR breather tube to replace the tube with a new one. One that gets "reamed" or cleaned out will leave carbon residue inside of the tube, which will serve as the base to attract & build up new carbon blockage quite rapidly. New tubes aren't horribly expensive.

NewTube:

http://www.parts.com/parts/index.cf...hText=1191400208&action=oePartSearch&siteid=2

 

[J-Sauce]

NewTube:

http://www.parts.com/parts/index.cf...hText=1191400208&action=oePartSearch&siteid=2

Efffff that!

 

[Glen]

re: cats. This looks like a direct fit, CARB legal replacement. Price is decent too:
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sku/Benchmark/Catalytic_Converter/BEN82286.html

 

[Stevester 500E]

Thanks Glen, I greatly appreciate that. Did you sort our your egr realted codes?

 

[Glen]

Not yet. Haven't had time to do any troubleshooting.

 

[Stevester 500E]

California state legal cats/pipes are in the mail. Now need to clean egr to intake tube. Imight do a modified acid drip cleaning. With the throttle body off, i will put a shallow tray to catch the soot. I don't know why these tubes clog so badly, but they do. Just saw a tube at the pick and pull, it was super clogged with hard carbon.

 

[gsxr]

You can keep & re-install the old cats if you sell the car to someone out of state that has no smog issues, btw... then re-sell the new cats.

No luck finding a smog shop that wasn't so anal? If it passed the pipe sniffer, there's no bleedin' way I'd shell out $600 for new cats....!!

 

[Stevester 500E]

It's 337 dollars plus misc gaskets. In non smog states, what kind of exhaust set ups are you running? Can you legally remove teh cats in some states?

 

[gsxr]

I still don't get how the new pipe will pass a visual any better than your current cats, I bet they're the same size, visibly smaller than OE.

I have stock cats on all my cars. We started having smog tests in my county a few years ago, but the limits are fairly high compared to CA (220 HC, 1.2% CO/NOx?). OBD-2 cars don't even get a pipe sniff, they plug in & check for codes, no codes = pass! Go figure.

 

[Glen]

Dave: CA legal cats have an E.O. number embossed / stamped on the bottom that can be seen by the smog tech. Some will look up the number to make sure it's the right one but others will see the E.O. and call it good.

 

[Stevester 500E]

I have made excelent "attempts" to roto-rooter the tube. It isn't a simple coathager trick. It has to be a flexible wire. It is doubtful that I will be able to break thru all that carbon.
I am trying to avoid taking off the throttle body because I have never done it before and it look like the area ist very tight to work it. I don't know it I have to remove the injector ad rails to get better access?

If anyone knows where a good detailed post is on removing the throttle body, I would greatly appreciate pointing me in that direction. I want to avoid removing things I don't need too. Thanks.

I took a sample of hardened carbon and soaked it in various automotor chemicals. Non do anthything to it. I even soaked a peice of teh carbon in Chem-dip, nothing. KEARYB1, can you let us know the barand and porduct name of the wheel cleening acid you used? It is found at our local automotive shops or do we have to go to a special deatail supply store. After trying out a number of auto motive chemicals, it seems unliky that anything will soften ou this nasty carbon pellet running thru the egr tube.

 

[gerryvz]

Some people stick in a speedometer cable from the other end and attach it to a drill and rooter it out that way. Have you seen the instructions on how to do that? I did not use this method, myself though.

I was able to ream mine out with a curved wire from inside the ETA, where the EGR pipe exits into it. This is where it gets clogged/carboned up.

I have not had the code since doing that, and it was about two years ago. Took me about 15 minutes to do this job.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Stevester 500E]

Thanks for the help Gerry. I did not see the speedometer cable roto rooter but that is what I came up with. However, the wire eventually twisted up. I don't know how many cable I will bennd before I break thru to the other side. Jerry, your method of a curved wire from inside the ETA, what that with the trottle body off?

I removed the egr valve and routing my cable tru that port, I need to make two elbo turns to get to the other end (light at the end of the tunnel). Yes, the last elbo is the one that gets clogged

If I do this cleaning by removing the throttle body I need to take a razor blade and cut of 1/8" increments at the end of the clogged end, tap the pipe til more carbon is expose at the end, cut another 1/8" til I am done. PITA.

Gerry, did you push your wire thru the egr port? Not sue what ETA is? THanks I really appreciate your help, what a nice day to do PITA projects. Rather be at the beach in a lawn chair breathing fresh air.

 

[Stevester 500E]

Ok. Electronic accelerator actuator, sorry. BTW, to detach linkage rod, does it snap oof at the ball joit or do I have to unbolt?

 

[Stevester 500E]

BTW, I did some reseach, no solvents soften up carbon. Not sure what wheel detailing acid KEARYB1 used.

 

[gerryvz]

No, I did it with the ETA on the car. You just have to expose it to where you can see the opening in the intake where the EGR tube can be viewed from above. Then you just get a piece of thick wire, and bend it into a hook shape, so you can insert it into that hole and ream it around. It gets carboned up at the very end of the tube, so this method is effective (though will probably have to be repeated at some point in the future as the carbon re-builds).

That said, it's pushing 2 years for me and I haven't had an EGR-related codes that I used to get.

The speedo cable reaming method is well-documented. I've never personally done it, but I have purchased a speedo cable for the eventuality that I would. The speedo cable method is documented in this Steve Brotherton article, posted here.

The method that I used doesn't really require any major disassembling of anything though, so it's much easier, faster, and more effective, and gets right to the source of the problem.

I still say that purchasing a new tube is the way to go, and when I rebuild the top end of my wife's M104 this winter, I will install a brand-new EGR tube.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[emerydc8]

Gerry, where does the EGR tube get clogged? Is it the part in front of the ETA or is it that small elbow where it runs under the ETA into the intake manifold?

 

[gerryvz]

I've been talking about the M104, NOT the M119, in all of my posts this thread. I am super sorry if folks have thought I have been talking about the M119. I thought my M104 references were apparent from the get-go. Again, sorry for any confusion.

On the M104: The latter you describe... the small elbow where the tube ends and goes into the intake though. You move the butterfly aside, and go further down through the ETA with your hooked wire through and then into the hole where the pipe ends. You don't have to disassemble it down to the level you are showing (which I am assuming is a 119). My M104 has a different angle on the end of the EGR tube, which you can JUST get to with a hooked wire. The M104 also has a black plastic intake manifold.

On the M119: I don't know, never had to do this job.

 

[emerydc8]

My mistake. I should have read the string more carefully. I thought the M119 was pretty much immune from this problem.

 

[gerryvz]

My mistake. I should have read the string more carefully. I thought the M119 was pretty much immune from this problem.

I did too, but J-Sause said it's common/happens.

 

[Stevester 500E]

M119's are not immune. The m119 I saw had about an inch and a half of solid carbon build up at the end of the tube you are showing. If you rebuild your intake and take it apart, you don't need to buy a tube, as you can pick out the carbon.

 

[J-Sauce]

Attached is a photo from the (peachparts) M119 Intake Manifold rebuild thread. Just as a visual. That is the bottom section of the EGR tube that juts into the manifold.

 

[Stevester 500E]

I successfully roto rootered the hard deposits. I don't think I would recommend it, it's a PITA. I would recommend trying two other methods. 1. Remove the throttle body and try and dig the carbon out with a small U-shaped picking tool. 2. Remove the manifold, and then remove tube and have better access to pick out the carbon.

After all that, trouble code 4 did not come back, but 5 and 6 did. If I replace all egr hoses I am hopefull I can clear code 5, but I am not sure about code 6 - idle speed control.

Does anyone know what usually throws trouble code 6.

 

[gsxr]

DM code 6 is usually a problem with the ETA, E-GAS module, or related components.

DM code 5 is something with the air injection pump, hoses, valve, etc.

 

[Stevester 500E]

Is the stock eta wiring insulation made of bio-degradable material? A guy on you tube shows how to redirect the eta wiring.

 

[Stevester 500E]

I don't have severe eta issues. Cars doesn't behave erratic, idle is smooth. What would be a symtom with eta issues and what would be a symtom of an e- gas module issue?

 

[gsxr]

Original ETA's have the biodegradable wiring. Replacement ETA's (from approx late 90's up) have good wiring that doesn't fall apart. I would NOT recommend attempting to rewire an original yourself, regardless of how easy it looks on YouTube. Especially if your is original with 250kmi! The internal pots & switches can wear out and you can't fix or replace those, despite having good wires. Get a used replacement ETA with a later date code from eBay if you don't want to pay for a new ETA or a Beckmann rebuild.

You gotta pull codes from the other modules. The usual primary symptom is limp mode. The DM codes are very generic and not particularly useful.

 

[senna891]

P0410 Secondary air injection system malfunction does not necessarily mean clogged air injection port. I chased P0410 error code on my 97 R129 for a year.

At cold start the air pump blows fresh air to the exhaust manifold and the O2 sensor reads a lean exhaust gas. So, the 02 sensor sends signal to enrich the air/fuel mixture. The purpose is to heat the cat up to its optimum operating temp fast and produce a clean exhaust gas.

P0410 is an error recognized by the ECU when it can't sense lean exhaust gas when the secondary air pump is activated. So, check and clean (or replace if defective) all the secondary air pumps hose and valves including the 02 sensor.

If after checking and replacing defective parts you still get P0410 and you are certain sure it is clogged injection port hole, you can modify the secondary air pump and ECU communication and eliminate P0410 with no material impact to the engine and avoid costly head work.

I prefer not to discuss the details. PM me if needed.

Hi Ed, I am getting P0410 on my 1998 R129. The secondary air pump, combination valve, and electropnuematic valve are all OK, I think it might be blocked passageways in the block, head, intake. Do you have any advice? Thanks