Lorinser 400E Engine swap 5.0 - Idling problems

[ssaliaj]

Lorinser 400E Engine swap 5.0 Idling problems
Hi everyone,
First of all i apologize for being repetitive on this topic but i really need some help understanding .

I have done a 5.0 swap to my W124 400E but i am facing big troubles with the idling. I would be pleased if you can share some advices.
So car wont keep the idling if i don't press the gas pedal, and with just touching the pedal a little bit it will high rev 1100-1200 rpm . I have no codes on HTT Win , the car sounds like it's running very well on higher rpm, but once i release the pedal to try to idle it will start shaking and turns off.

I made some tests for vacuum on hoses but everything looks good (i do have a suspect on header seal joints but i need a biger smoke gnerator to be assured ). Actually the engine has the 4.0 LH module, and the original Throttle body. I tried to install the 5.0 LH module with 4.0 throttle body , clearing all codes with HTT win, but the idle wont improve, engine wont run good on high rpm too.

Looks like with te 5.0 LH the mixture is very reach. Also what i noticed is that with 4.0 LH the throttle will show 2.6 degree open at 1100rpm “forced idle” while with the 5.0 LH module wont read the throttle angle at all. I am attaching a video with the 5.0 LH module instaled . Any opinion would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Saimir

 

[gsxr]

The ETA (throttle body) doesn't care what the engine displacement is. However, the ETA must match if the vehicle has ASR or non-ASR. The control modules must match the car (T/LLR for non-ASR, or E-GAS for ASR).

You have a 5.0L engine, use the 5.0L LH module - don't bother with the 4.2L module.

From your video it sounds like you have a misfire at low RPM. Look at live data in HHT-WIN for EZL / DI ("EZ1" in HHT-Win), specifically look at ignition voltages at idle. Normal is low 30's. If you see any cylinders spiking to 60-70v, that's a misfire you need to fix.

See 0:22 in the video below.

 

[ssaliaj]

The ETA (throttle body) doesn't care what the engine displacement is. However, the ETA must match if the vehicle has ASR or non-ASR. The control modules must match the car (T/LLR for non-ASR, or E-GAS for ASR).

You have a 5.0L engine, use the 5.0L LH module - don't bother with the 4.2L module.

From your video it sounds like you have a misfire at low RPM. Look at live data in HHT-WIN for EZL / DI ("EZ1" in HHT-Win), specifically look at ignition voltages at idle. Normal is low 30's. If you see any cylinders spiking to 60-70v, that's a misfire you need to fix.

See 0:22 in the video below.

Wow, thank you very much. As always very helpful. The only problem i have is that i cant connect to EZ1 . Maybe because the 38 pin cable does not have all wires connected ?

 

[gsxr]

Wow, thank you very much. As always very helpful. The only problem i have is that i cant connect to EZ1 . Maybe because the 38 pin cable does not have all wires connected ?

Do you have a C3 MUX, or C4 MUX?

You'll need to get the SDS communicating with the EZL for further diagnostics. In the meantime, you should remove both distributor caps and look for carbon tracks / arcing. The passenger side is usually worse, and usually at fault.

Additional reading here.

 

[ssaliaj]

Star C3 MUX

 

[ssaliaj]

Do you have a C3 MUX, or C4 MUX?

You'll need to get the SDS communicating with the EZL for further diagnostics. In the meantime, you should remove both distributor caps and look for carbon tracks / arcing. The passenger side is usually worse, and usually at fault.

Additional reading here.

I have seen this ki d of problem in many cars but thought it was effective only on hot restart . My car wont keep the idle even cold. Is there any chance that the throttle idle coil is not regulating the idle ? The car is non ASR. I will try to check the resistance at throttle connector

 

[gsxr]

OK. First check if your 38-pin cable has all 38 wires inside. If not, get a cable with all 38 wires.

If you have all 38 wires... the C3 MUX is defective, likely a cheap clone that cannot deal with the lower communication voltage on the EZL. This is a known issue with some C3 hardware. You could try a different C3 MUX, just make sure you can return for a refund if buying a new one (if you can find any). Otherwise you'll have to buy new SDS hardware... I'd skip the C4 (which is already outdated) and get the latest M6+ setup described here.

 

[ssaliaj]

My bad, i was not careful reading before . Always thought that for our cars C3 was the best.
I checked the cable and it has more than half pins empty. I am contacting the seller.

 

[gsxr]

I have seen this ki d of problem in many cars but thought it was effective only on hot restart . My car wont keep the idle even cold. Is there any chance that the throttle idle coil is not regulating the idle ? The car is non ASR. I will try to check the resistance at throttle connector

The moisture in the distributor cap is usually an issue 10-20 mins after a cold start (doesn't have to be shut off and restarted).

If your car is misfiring from a cold start, you may have other secondary ignition issues. Check everything from the coils, wires, caps, rotors, insulators, plug boots, and plugs. Make sure the plugs are standard copper non-resistor, gapped to 1.0mm.

Live data from SDS will pinpoint the specific cylinders which are misfiring, which can be helpful, but you don't have that capability at the moment.

 

[ssaliaj]

Finally some progress with the main idling issue.

I discovered that the mechanic who did the swap made a mess with the throttle linkage , he was forcing the ETA not to have the free move for idling correction causing the coil to burn. Considering that the non ASR ETA is a rare piece, i had to make a very hard repair to bring it back to normality. Now the car stays running, but there is still a low rpm Missfire.

This chinese C3 multiplexer is crap . I made myself a full pin cable. Now it connects to more modules but not to the EZL. The seller is not collaborating to return it.

I coulndt find locally good spark plugs, i went for new NGK spark cables wich also resulted to be junk quality. On full darkness i can see sporadic discharges from wire to enging cover. The distributor and caps were all good . A lot of money spent for nothing.

Does any one have a C3 multiplexer for sale ? Oem multiplexer

 

[gsxr]

Finally some progress with the main idling issue.

I discovered that the mechanic who did the swap made a mess with the throttle linkage , he was forcing the ETA not to have the free move for idling correction causing the coil to burn. Considering that the non ASR ETA is a rare piece, i had to make a very hard repair to bring it back to normality. Now the car stays running, but there is still a low rpm Missfire.

Good thing you were able to identify the ETA as the problem, and fix it! Bummer about the mechanic who caused the problem though.

This chinese C3 multiplexer is crap . I made myself a full pin cable. Now it connects to more modules but not to the EZL. The seller is not collaborating to return it.

I'd skip both the C3 and C4 and skip to the latest "M6+" setup that people have verified has all 38 wires, and works with the EZL. Details here.

I coulndt find locally good spark plugs, i went for new NGK spark cables wich also resulted to be junk quality. On full darkness i can see sporadic discharges from wire to enging cover. The distributor and caps were all good . A lot of money spent for nothing.

Oh no. I'm disappointed that the NGK wires were defective out of the box. Can you exchange for another set under warranty, or return them? You could also re-install the old wires and see if those have visible discharges on full darkness. If you need new wires, I'd try the Beru set, details here.

Does any one have a C3 multiplexer for sale ? Oem multiplexer

It will be difficult to find a C3 from a seller who will guarantee it works with the EZL. I'd recommend upgrading to the M6+ instead.

 

[ssaliaj]

Hello everyone! Sorry for coming back to this after such a ling time.
So all the bad idling was coming from cylinder number 7. The fuel injector was not working and strangely also one valve spring was broken.
I bought the 5.0 engine from an UK car 100k miles but was stoped for long time. When i bought it together with the swap specific needed parts like oil pump, headers etc. I changed timing chain, chain guides, hydraulic lifters and seals but left the springs untouched.
Now everything is back and the engine is super powerful. New head gskets, new valve seals and everything need when you open an engine.
Despite the junk quality of the NGK spark wires car is running acceptably well.

I will share some photos from the test with timing lamp . I notice a very little shift from point zero. So evry first 360* cycle i see the timin at 0, every second 360* i notice a 1-2* or 1.5* .
Any idea what might be the cause ?

For everyone who is doing 5.0 to 400E or E420 regarding the LH module. I replaced my 400E LH EPROM an EPROM from w140 5.0 ABS USA specs with KAT and full throttle enrichment, Now the LH conect perfectly to the car and when i select car model on HTT WIN it recognises as the car as wdb124.034/36 with 5.0 Engine. I dont have to select w140 S500.

First 360* cycle timing ok.


W124 400E ECU with 5.0 Eprom


Next 360* cycle timin lg shiftet by 1*. And this continues infinitely.

 

[ssaliaj]

I am running the car with shift delay remove ! Do i need to install it back now that i have 400E ECU with 5.0 EPROM ? Any idea how this ECUs work ? Is the downshift relay depending on the rect of ECU or the logic is still in the EPROM ?

 

[gsxr]

I am running the car with shift delay remove ! Do i need to install it back now that i have 400E ECU with 5.0 EPROM ? Any idea how this ECUs work ? Is the downshift relay depending on the rect of ECU or the logic is still in the EPROM ?

If shifting is normal, you don't need to do anything. USA/Japan spec 034's have 2.24 differential gears and a transmission valvebody that starts in 1st gear, along with a relay (K29/1?) that will cause problems if you swap in a different LH module. If your 500E is not USA/Japan spec, or has this relay removed, it will be fine.

If a USA/Japan spec car has a 5.0L module installed with relay K29/1, the result is bizarre shifting... holds 1st gear much too long, then skips 2nd, won't shift out of 3rd... stuff like that. It's caused by a +12v signal being sent to the kickdown solenoid without full throttle applied, which confuses the transmission.

 

[ssaliaj]

Both car and 5.0 LH module are USA specs. I was wondering as long as the LH is from the same car 400E but with change EPROM from 5.0 also USA w140 5.0. Maybe the logic of down shift is coming from other components not the EPROM but diesnt sound that much logic. Only if there are other parts of the circuit that control the relay. I will try the car with attention with long drive to understand all the gears and shifting . By the way, with the relay off dos the car still start on 1st gear ?

 

[gsxr]

USA car with 5.0L module and relay K29/1 removed, you are all set - that is a correct setup.

The USA-spec 400E transmission will always start in 1st gear. This is controlled by the valvebody. Relay K29/1 is for catalyst heating, it just delays the upshift to 2nd (or 3rd) gear when cold.

 

[ssaliaj]

Now is everything clear. Thank you.

 

[ssaliaj]

Lorinser 400E 5.0
I would like one last opinion from field experts. I have found an euro 2.65 differential from R129 50”SL with ABS (non ASR ). Will the 2.65 destroy the w124.034 gearbox? I am worried as long as it starts on the first gear. It may also sound as bullshit

 

[gsxr]

Lorinser 400E 5.0
I would like one last opinion from field experts. I have found an euro 2.65 differential from R129 50”SL with ABS (non ASR ). Will the 2.65 destroy the w124.034 gearbox? I am worried as long as it starts on the first gear. It may also sound as bullshit

There is NO concern about the gearbox / transmission. The upgrade from 2.24 to 2.65 makes a big difference.

Note that the R129 donor must be a 129.066 chassis, and if the R129 is ABS only (non-ASR), that diff will only work in your 400E if your 400R is non-ASR.

If the R129 is a 129.067 chassis, that diff will not fit, it's a completely different housing.

 

[ssaliaj]

Yes 129.066 the old kodel with mechanical injection 1991. My car also with ABS only.

 

[gsxr]

In that case it should be plug+play! You'll need a YellowBox or similar converter to make the speedometer/odometer read accurately.

 

[ssaliaj]

In that case it should be plug+play! You'll need a YellowBox or similar converter to make the speedometer/odometer read accurately.

I am located in Europe and i am trying to find a speedometer from Euro E420. But the yellow box is always the solution