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M111
- Thread starter ALL500
- Start date
What kind of M111 is it?
From what I know, they are all very solid engines! The blown head gasket happens from time to time, but that is one of the few bigger problems.
I know my supercharged M111 E23ML since about ten years, it always was a daily driver except for the winter months. Never had any problem!
A friend purchased a W202 with a NA M111 and a blown head gasket. Fixed it and had no other problems.
An other friend purchased a W202 with a NA M111 and a hole in the piston. The pre-owner never changed spark plugs and at over 125k miles one plug broke. He fixed it and had no other problems.
Many M111 around here have far over 200k miles and still work great. A SLK was for sale a while ago with over 450k miles and with the first engine!
On the supercharged M111ML the exhaust manifold cracks sometimes with high mileage. New ones are not cheap.
The supercharger can break if the oil does not get changed. The supercharger is not connected with the engines oil system and has his own oil.
The later supercharger M111ML Evo (from 2000 on) can have problems with worn camshafts because some were not hardened enough. But that is a rare problem.
The timing chain can start to stretch between 100k and 125k miles.
And the magnet switch of the camshaft adjuster can leak oil. In the worst case the oil flows inside the control unit and kills it. Probably the most common problem, but there is a special cable to fix that.
If it is only the blown head gasket, I would not worry to much about any upcoming problems! But it would be a good situation to change the timing chain while your at it.
From what I know, they are all very solid engines! The blown head gasket happens from time to time, but that is one of the few bigger problems.
I know my supercharged M111 E23ML since about ten years, it always was a daily driver except for the winter months. Never had any problem!
A friend purchased a W202 with a NA M111 and a blown head gasket. Fixed it and had no other problems.
An other friend purchased a W202 with a NA M111 and a hole in the piston. The pre-owner never changed spark plugs and at over 125k miles one plug broke. He fixed it and had no other problems.
Many M111 around here have far over 200k miles and still work great. A SLK was for sale a while ago with over 450k miles and with the first engine!
On the supercharged M111ML the exhaust manifold cracks sometimes with high mileage. New ones are not cheap.
The supercharger can break if the oil does not get changed. The supercharger is not connected with the engines oil system and has his own oil.
The later supercharger M111ML Evo (from 2000 on) can have problems with worn camshafts because some were not hardened enough. But that is a rare problem.
The timing chain can start to stretch between 100k and 125k miles.
And the magnet switch of the camshaft adjuster can leak oil. In the worst case the oil flows inside the control unit and kills it. Probably the most common problem, but there is a special cable to fix that.
If it is only the blown head gasket, I would not worry to much about any upcoming problems! But it would be a good situation to change the timing chain while your at it.
It's either the .973 or .975 I'll have to double check (98 R170 230) From what I read they are all pretty bulletproof. Bulletproof... except for headgasket failure? Apparently with an M111, it should be expected to happen at some point. This one has around 80k miles and has been on it's way out for a year at least. The symptoms were gradual lowering of the coolant level and intermittent CEL. Over time the engine became noisier and finally it runs and shakes like a bad diesel. I'm thinking it's 'just the gasket', but I'm wondering what surprises may lay in wait. I hear it's good practice to replace the head bolts, as they stretch? Any other parts to consider ordering? Timing chain yes? Other advice is to engine swap or scrap the car, but if a new gasket (and not much else) will do the trick, I think it's worth it.
Didn't these have issues with failing/leaking seals on the supercharger?
I've had an eye out for a future replacement for the wife's R129, but I passed on the R170 230s and went to the later M112 powered models as they seemed a lot more bulletproof.
Dan
I've had an eye out for a future replacement for the wife's R129, but I passed on the R170 230s and went to the later M112 powered models as they seemed a lot more bulletproof.
Dan
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@LWB250: I never heard of any leaking seals on the supercharger. I love my 1996 SLK (in the family since 2007) and we never had any bigger problem with it! Most problems are caused by neglected maintainance...
Imho the M111 is on of the last bulletproof MB engines, together with the M112 and M113. But the M111 Kompressor build up to 2000 is better than the one in the facelift SLK (M111 E23ML Evo) imho.
@ALL500: Yes, the headgasket is a common problem. Ofter starting to leak between 75k and 150k miles.
Does your one leak into the cylinder or to the outside of the engine? How much water does your engine consume/how long can you drive till you have to fill water up? If it is extreme, you may loose the oil-film that lubricates between piston rings and cylinder and damage your engine block.
Regarding your engine running like a diesel: Often the airflow-meter gets dirty from oil coming out of the crankcase vent (is this the correct word?). Cleaning it may help to get it running smooth again!
Here is what you need to remove to change the head gasket:
Ignition, Valvecover, coolant reservoir, vent, thermostat housing, air filter, intace tubes, throttle body, intace manyfold, supercharger, exhaust manifold, engine front cover, chain tensioner, guiding rails, timing chain and camshaft gears
You do not need many special tools (two camshaft retaining pins or two 6mm drills, a chain rail puller and a Hazet 990SLg-12 or similar) but it takes some time and is not always fun (especially removeing and installing the supercharger). Some sealing compound is needed too for the engine front cover and some WD40 for the exhaust manifold bolts.
Since you have to remove the supercharger anyway, please change the supercharger oil! And it would do no harm to change the belt too.
And since you need to remove the upper guiding rail, you can replace that too if you want. Same with the chain. I recommend to change the chain tensioner too.
Not sure if it is needed to change the termostat. If the old one is good, why buy a new one?
And of course change all the removed intake seals, the exhaust manifold gasket...
Some peope like to remove the head with the exhaust manifold attached to it and remove the manifold later. This is especially useful if you have big hands!
In that case it would make sense to try to loosen the manifold nuts a bit before removing the head because the head can not move around when working with the needed force. Whatever method you choose, it would be a good idea to spray the nuts with WD40 and let it soak in for a while.
And of course, if the head is removed please let some specialist flatten the head surface!
Depending on the condition, it would be a good chance to change the valve seals too while the head is off...
You can measure the head bolts. If they are not longer than the given tolerance, there is no need to change them!
And while your at it: Take a look at the camshaft adjuster and its cable and jack! They can leak oil, which then flows into the ECU and kills it in the long run. Way cheaper to fix it as soon as it starts to leak there!!
No need to scrap the car!!!
MB charges around 1100 Euros in Germany for the repair (probably without flattening the head). If you want to diy or give it to an indipendent workshop it of course is way cheaper...
I think repairing your engine is better than doing an engine swap as long as it only is the head gasket. You never know what repairs the swapped in engine needs. Chances are good that a engine swap is more expensive in the long run than just repair the head gasket...
Imho the M111 is on of the last bulletproof MB engines, together with the M112 and M113. But the M111 Kompressor build up to 2000 is better than the one in the facelift SLK (M111 E23ML Evo) imho.
@ALL500: Yes, the headgasket is a common problem. Ofter starting to leak between 75k and 150k miles.
Does your one leak into the cylinder or to the outside of the engine? How much water does your engine consume/how long can you drive till you have to fill water up? If it is extreme, you may loose the oil-film that lubricates between piston rings and cylinder and damage your engine block.
Regarding your engine running like a diesel: Often the airflow-meter gets dirty from oil coming out of the crankcase vent (is this the correct word?). Cleaning it may help to get it running smooth again!
Here is what you need to remove to change the head gasket:
Ignition, Valvecover, coolant reservoir, vent, thermostat housing, air filter, intace tubes, throttle body, intace manyfold, supercharger, exhaust manifold, engine front cover, chain tensioner, guiding rails, timing chain and camshaft gears
You do not need many special tools (two camshaft retaining pins or two 6mm drills, a chain rail puller and a Hazet 990SLg-12 or similar) but it takes some time and is not always fun (especially removeing and installing the supercharger). Some sealing compound is needed too for the engine front cover and some WD40 for the exhaust manifold bolts.
Since you have to remove the supercharger anyway, please change the supercharger oil! And it would do no harm to change the belt too.
And since you need to remove the upper guiding rail, you can replace that too if you want. Same with the chain. I recommend to change the chain tensioner too.
Not sure if it is needed to change the termostat. If the old one is good, why buy a new one?
And of course change all the removed intake seals, the exhaust manifold gasket...
Some peope like to remove the head with the exhaust manifold attached to it and remove the manifold later. This is especially useful if you have big hands!
In that case it would make sense to try to loosen the manifold nuts a bit before removing the head because the head can not move around when working with the needed force. Whatever method you choose, it would be a good idea to spray the nuts with WD40 and let it soak in for a while.
And of course, if the head is removed please let some specialist flatten the head surface!
Depending on the condition, it would be a good chance to change the valve seals too while the head is off...
You can measure the head bolts. If they are not longer than the given tolerance, there is no need to change them!
And while your at it: Take a look at the camshaft adjuster and its cable and jack! They can leak oil, which then flows into the ECU and kills it in the long run. Way cheaper to fix it as soon as it starts to leak there!!
No need to scrap the car!!!
MB charges around 1100 Euros in Germany for the repair (probably without flattening the head). If you want to diy or give it to an indipendent workshop it of course is way cheaper...
I think repairing your engine is better than doing an engine swap as long as it only is the head gasket. You never know what repairs the swapped in engine needs. Chances are good that a engine swap is more expensive in the long run than just repair the head gasket...
744Brillantsilber, I'm not sure exactly where the leak is located but the coolant level drops below half and stays there after a few weeks of city driving. I have replaced the MAF not long ago and it is still working properly.
Thanks for the list of parts and tools, I've been looking into doing the job myself. There is someone who has a write up online with pictures and someone else who has a YouTube series, though I find them lacking. I have never done a head gasket. The more things I see on the list, the more I'm not sure if it is a DIY for me. If I mess up something...
The shop wants $1400 for it and that's just the gasket install, not anything else that they may find wrong. If this starts adding up to the thousands, it will well approach the value of the car. I'm still on the fence. I don't want to scrap it and nothing else is wrong with the car, but to make a few $ parting out rather than the potential of thousands to fix (and who knows how good of a job they do) or me just winging it DIY... I'm not sure.
The funny thing about the R170 is, it's a fantastic car. Once I got over the interior, I realized that it's one of the most underrated Mercedes.
I've actually tried to sell it at every opportunity, to pick up something else like a 928 Porsche or R129 but it's such a better car. It's not an E500E
of course.
Thanks for the list of parts and tools, I've been looking into doing the job myself. There is someone who has a write up online with pictures and someone else who has a YouTube series, though I find them lacking. I have never done a head gasket. The more things I see on the list, the more I'm not sure if it is a DIY for me. If I mess up something...
The shop wants $1400 for it and that's just the gasket install, not anything else that they may find wrong. If this starts adding up to the thousands, it will well approach the value of the car. I'm still on the fence. I don't want to scrap it and nothing else is wrong with the car, but to make a few $ parting out rather than the potential of thousands to fix (and who knows how good of a job they do) or me just winging it DIY... I'm not sure.
The funny thing about the R170 is, it's a fantastic car. Once I got over the interior, I realized that it's one of the most underrated Mercedes.
I've actually tried to sell it at every opportunity, to pick up something else like a 928 Porsche or R129 but it's such a better car. It's not an E500E
of course.
@ALL500: You are welcome. I do not see any major problem in you doing it yourself, as long as you take your time and have the needes tools and let a expert flatten the head!
Instead on spending the $1400 for the gasket only you probably end up equal or even cheaper including tools and a few other parts. And you know who did it and how good it was done!
There should be a factory repair guide for the W202 on CD or DVD (at least there is one in German) including detailed instructions on the M111 engine. Same engine as in your SLK, so I recommend you getting one for torques, instructions, etc.
The interior can be a bit strange (depending on the ordered color and the wearing surfaces) and the interior quality is not as good as in the W124 or similar cars. But the car makes me grin every time I drive it with the supercharger and a manual gearbox and it never let me down so far. What to want more?!
Instead on spending the $1400 for the gasket only you probably end up equal or even cheaper including tools and a few other parts. And you know who did it and how good it was done!
There should be a factory repair guide for the W202 on CD or DVD (at least there is one in German) including detailed instructions on the M111 engine. Same engine as in your SLK, so I recommend you getting one for torques, instructions, etc.
Very funny you mention that! Even if a 928, R129 or .036 is the "better" car imo, the SLK is awesome - especially for the money they go for now and with cheap and easy to find parts!
The interior can be a bit strange (depending on the ordered color and the wearing surfaces) and the interior quality is not as good as in the W124 or similar cars. But the car makes me grin every time I drive it with the supercharger and a manual gearbox and it never let me down so far. What to want more?!
Everyone's insight into the SLK is quite helpful - I'm constantly on the prowl for an SLK320 for the wife as replacement for her R129 (97 S500). The interior issues seemed to be somewhat resolved in later model years, thankfully, and the top hydraulics can often be a good negotiating point as by now they're starting to fail, despite being easy to repair.
If I could just find a nice yellow one. They're pretty rare in that color.
Dan
If I could just find a nice yellow one. They're pretty rare in that color.
Dan
Dan,
the interior problems on the first series (1996-2000) can be fixed in various ways:
You can use some special laquer (need to look up the name
), but the results depend on the interior color here. Black can be fixed quite good, other colors not so much.Or you can coat the middle console... with real leather in matching color. The way MB should have done from factory, but expensive!
The facelift cars tend to rust more, especially the 2000 and early 2001 made cars. And the performance of the 320 is not better than the 230.
Edit: You are in Florida, so forget about the rust topic
They look awesome in yellow imho! I want one since I was a little child and had one as a toy car...
A yellow 320 is super hard to find. They stopped the yellow color a short time after the facelift.
What is wrong with the R129 SL?
Dan,
the interior problems on the first series (1996-2000) can be fixed in various ways:
You can use some special laquer (need to look up the name
Or you can coat the middle console... with real leather in matching color. The way MB should have done from factory, but expensive!
The facelift cars tend to rust more, especially the 2000 and early 2001 made cars. And the performance of the 320 is not better than the 230.
Edit: You are in Florida, so forget about the rust topic
They look awesome in yellow imho! I want one since I was a little child and had one as a toy car...
A yellow 320 is super hard to find. They stopped the yellow color a short time after the facelift.
What is wrong with the R129 SL?
Thanks!
Yes, rust is rarely an issue here in Florida, or for that matter anywhere in the south or southwest part of the country. Same with the W210s - you don't see them in the northern part of the country because they rusted away, yet they are cheap and plentiful here.
Yes, the interior issues are one of the reasons why I focused on later models. I don't want to have to refresh an interior, although I could certainly do it.
I realize the M112 isn't any better than the M111 for a number of reasons, but it's more robust and economical engine, and I already have two in the fleet so it makes maintenance and inventory of spares easier for me.
Nothing wrong with the R129, in fact, it's got to be one of the best Mercedes I've owned over the years. It's gone from 70k miles to nearly 140k miles in 7 years and been amazingly trouble free throughout that time. The real irony is that it's my wife's car, and she drives it in, shall we say, a very "spirited" manner. I believe @gsxr refers to her driving technique as "binary throttle control", if that makes sense. I don't ride with her as it scares the heck out of me. If we go somewhere I drive.
I would just like to get her in a newer car, ideally to gain some economy as she's lucky to hit 15 mpg in the R129, and because newer = safer.
Dan
Dan,
lucky you!
Man, you made me laugh really hard!! binary throttle control, great
The M111 has a little bit better mpg compared to the M112. And both do 0-60 in about 7 seconds.
I manage to get 29mpg out of the 230 SLK with "normal" driving (including a bit traffic jam, windy country roads and driving 75mph for a few miles). With the M112 I guess it would be around 23mpg doing the same.
The SLK is very safe for a 1990s convertible, but so is the R129.
If you are about safety, get a facelift car for sure. The first series of course had ASR and ABS, but no ESP...
If you have any questions, feel free to send a PM
The SLK 230 is lighter in the nose than the other R170s. It also gets better gas mileage indeed, but that doesn't stop me wanting an SLK32AMG. Drove one once, they are like lightning. I find the SLK to be a perfect city car, but it does remarkably well as a GT. The seats are wider and far more supportive than the W124. After 8 hrs in the 500E, I'm shifting around like crazy, not so in the SLK. It's great having a hardtop and convertible and the a/c and heat are fantastic. When it's -20c in the winter here, the small cabin is hot in seconds. There are no blind spots and you can park it anywhere. It has been very reliable up until this point. The plasticky interior suffers from poor paint that will chip off if you sneeze wrong and the armrest on the door is far too hard. Other than that, all controls are half an arm's length away. After driving much "better" cars, I get back in and realize how spoiled I am driving the R170. It's not a rocketship like the 500E but it does everything well. I've driven so many 928s and eventually want one to win me over, I love the looks and power, but the 928's interior is like a bad dream. Not to mention neglected maintenance. The R129 is like driving a wider, lower, heavier W124 to me. Every time I see the interior (and pano roof) I want to jump in, but remain disappointed after. Minor gripes aside, they are all fantastic cars. If you go R170, be prepared to drive fast as every other driver wants to bully you, tailgate, or run you over (my girlfriend says they're all just jealous).
I actually want to be sure it's my headgasket, despite the shop diagnosing at a distance. I can see my valve cover gasket is pretty wet in places, but the (two) spark plugs I've pulled were dry. I've not heard of it before, but could a bad valve cover gasket cause violent engine shake?
It's hard to see, but I can't find any black marks lower on the engine, or anything to physically show a bad head gasket, other than the shaking.
View attachment 2.headgasket.mov
I actually want to be sure it's my headgasket, despite the shop diagnosing at a distance. I can see my valve cover gasket is pretty wet in places, but the (two) spark plugs I've pulled were dry. I've not heard of it before, but could a bad valve cover gasket cause violent engine shake?
It's hard to see, but I can't find any black marks lower on the engine, or anything to physically show a bad head gasket, other than the shaking.
View attachment 2.headgasket.mov
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@ALL500: Thank you for the picture and the video!
From the video, it looks like it is not running on all cylinders imo.
I doubt it is the valve cover seal.
First, I would recommend you to pull all for spark plugs and see how they look.
I do not know your tools, but doing a pressure loss test (is that the correct translation?) would be easy and helpful!
Since it has no direct injection, the fuel system should be fine.
So it is probably something in the ignition (probably a spark plug, cable or one of the 2 coils) or you get that much water in the cylinder, that the fuel-air mixture can ne be ignited. With you loosing water, it probably is the 2nd option.
That should be visible on a spark plug and can be testet with a pressure loss test.
From the video, it looks like it is not running on all cylinders imo.
I doubt it is the valve cover seal.
First, I would recommend you to pull all for spark plugs and see how they look.
I do not know your tools, but doing a pressure loss test (is that the correct translation?) would be easy and helpful!
Since it has no direct injection, the fuel system should be fine.
So it is probably something in the ignition (probably a spark plug, cable or one of the 2 coils) or you get that much water in the cylinder, that the fuel-air mixture can ne be ignited. With you loosing water, it probably is the 2nd option.
That should be visible on a spark plug and can be testet with a pressure loss test.
Been looking for an SLK32 AMG for a while. They're hard to come by here. I looked at one prospect about a year ago in the area but it was poorly documented and the owner had unrealistic expectations of the value. I continue to search....
Dan
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Regarding the seats:
The facelift seats are more supportive than the pref-facelift seats.
For some reason I find my pre-facelift seats kind of lacking support. If there would not be that airbag-sensor integrated into the passenger seat, my car would already have some Recaros or similar.
Or maybe I am just spoiled by the multicontour seats in the W124...
An other common swap is to take seats out of the Chrysler Crossfire (based on the SLK320).
The biggest problem with the 32 AMG is that there was no manual gearbox available
And the sound could be a bit better too! But other than that, it is indeed a bit front heavy but flies as hell on straights!!
The facelift seats are more supportive than the pref-facelift seats.
For some reason I find my pre-facelift seats kind of lacking support. If there would not be that airbag-sensor integrated into the passenger seat, my car would already have some Recaros or similar.
Or maybe I am just spoiled by the multicontour seats in the W124...
An other common swap is to take seats out of the Chrysler Crossfire (based on the SLK320).
The biggest problem with the 32 AMG is that there was no manual gearbox available
And the sound could be a bit better too! But other than that, it is indeed a bit front heavy but flies as hell on straights!!
There is a bypass module that's sold in the aftermarket for the passenger seat airbag sensor. I bought one for my S210 wagon because I was too lazy to disassemble the seat to remove and replace the sensor. I can dig around for a link - the seller was in Germany.
Dan
Thank you very much for that tip, Dan!
That is great to know.
I think this is the seller:
Passenger Seat Occupancy Mat Bypass MERCEDES BENZ SRS Airbag Sensor Emulator Fix | eBay
They have one device that I believe works with a number of different models depending on how the DIP switches are set on it. It took all of maybe 2-3 minutes to install and set up.
Dan
Dan, thank you very much for looking this up again for me! I appreciate that
744Brillantsilber, I finally did a pressure test and all cylinders were great. That led me to the simple problem with the ignition coils that you mentioned. I'm told these engines like to eat spark plugs and it is very likely that I was running on worn out ones for too long, leading to the ignition coil failure. Thank you for the correct advice. I was expecting a larger problem because I have never seen an engine shake like it did. I once drove a 500E 4000KM across the country on only 4 cylinders (bad harness). Other than the lack of power and a CEL there were no other symptoms. M119!
That’s certainly one way to go CAT-less!
jokes aside- since you were using kms to describe your journey, perhaps you already were CAT-less.
