New Alignment

[szvook]

So the time has come to get an alignment done and I have means to have it done at the shop that got me the HRE wheels and the new Conti’s Extreme Contact (DW) tires - Goodyear stopped carrying the 245/45/17 sizes so I went with Conti’s and for a good chunk less in price. The shop is mostly for Porsche clients, but do have a few Benz clients and the owner has a 1995 SL500 as his daily driver.

For the alignment, the shop has a Hunter machine and after looking for right operator for two years, they found a guy who is very good and has done all types of exotics over the past 25 years. The questions I have are:

1. With wider wheels/tires and front offset at 27, should I bring the factory specs just in case, or will the machine use the car model (W124 E class) to get the right specs? Or should the R129 specs be used from the machines model’s index?

2. With the laser system from Hunter, do I still need to pursue a spreader bar for force simulation, or can I just ask to use some kind of weights in the front floor, and what is the weight/pressure to be applied?

Danke.

 

[gsxr]

Steve,

Not all W124's use the same alignment specs. The specs for the E500E are specific to the 124.036. See this PDF document from the FSM, sections C and D, pages 4 and 6. I would definitely use the 124.036 alignment specs and not deviate from them. The spreader bar is still required; this is for setting toe, and you cannot simulate it with weights. It presses the front tires sideways (apart) to simulate forces when driving. An experienced alignment tech could press the tires apart manually (possibly with assistance from another tech), but any shop that does MB's should have shelled out for the spreader bar by now... it's not expensive.

Additional alignment info from the FSM is at these links, note that the specs require a full tank of fuel, otherwise weight is to be added to the trunk to simulate a full tank. The second link shows the spreader bar used for setting toe.
http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/ ... 0-0200.pdf
http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/ ... 0-0323.pdf


In general I always recommend having MB alignments performed at the dealership, but an experienced indy shop that does a lot of MB's can also do a good job. However not many people have an indy shop like that nearby... my only choice is the dealer, and they've always done a great job. The Boise MB dealership (Lyle Pearson Co.) charges a flat $100 for alignments. I request before & after specs, the printout from the machine, for my records. Here are the alignment reports from my two .036 cars:
http://www.w124performance.com/images/c ... gnment.jpg
http://www.w124performance.com/images/W ... t_E500.jpg

UPDATE: As of March 2014, the Boise dealer was charging $130 for alignment; and as of Nov-2014 it increased to $150.

 

[szvook]

Thanks, Dave. I'll bring all doc's with me.

I will find out if the shop also has a spreader bar and just how many Benzes their new tech has done. The dealership will be my last option, as the shop I visit is excellent all around and have had all of their customers ask if in-house alignment would be available for a few years now.

So wider wheels/tires do not play into the OEM alignment's specs?

 

[gsxr]

Wider wheels / tires may affect the car's handling at speed (particularly on a road course), but it doesn't affect alignment specs. Factory MB wheels all have small (~5mm diameter?) holes near the lug bolts. These are for the dealer alignment setup - it slides pins through the holes that rest on the brake rotor surface. This allows the alignment machine to read directly from the wheel carrrier/hub location, and eliminates any potential error from imperfect wheels. I always put a set of OE wheels on my car prior to having it aligned at the dealer for this reason.

If the car is lowered from stock specs (via H&R springs, etc) and/or has rear camber correction kits (from RDM TEK, etc)... it may not be possible to get the rear toe in spec without installing different tie rod bushings that allow additional adjustment. BT, DT. This probably doesn't apply to your car though, at least not yet!

 

[gerryvz]

In general I always recommend having MB alignments performed at the dealership, but an experienced indy shop that does a lot of MB's can also do a good job.

+2. You really can't go wrong with the dealer as they have the expertise and equipment to do the job right. Indeed there are A FEW indy shops I'd trust to do an alignment. If you don't know of one, call up a few and ask who they have and/or recommend do their alignments. Chances are that they use one of a few "third party vendors" who are highly familiar with MBs who can also do the job right. And if you go to them directly, you may save a few bucks of indy shop markup.

My indy shop here outsources this to a very competent wheel/tire shop that knows MBs. That shop charges $125 for an MB four-wheel alignment. My shop doesn't mark up that price, though.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[szvook]

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

Since my OEM 16” wheels are gone, I have to use my HRE’s. No drop/change in my suspension yet (aside from new LCA), so that is not a factor. When I did my brake upgrade and new LCA, I had an indy shop who does alignment for a Benz dealer do the alignment, but I wasn’t present and their trusty tech who does alignment all the time was on vacation, and ever since then the car just did not feel right. My wheel shop uses a shop that did my alignment when I first got my HRE’s, but they are 30 miles away and are closed on weekends, but their work was perfect.

So now, the wheel shop has a tech who they swear by and since I’ll be off work on the 24th,, I will have the whole day to get the alignment done at the shop, or if I’m not happy at the dealership. Btw, the ExtremeContact DW tires are quite good, weight less then my old Goodyear F1 GDS3 (front weigh 4lbs less and rear weigh 2lbs less) and provide a smoother ride while providing the same performance as Goodyear. Although the Conti’s are a couple of days old and need more time to brake in, the overall and initial feel compared to Goodyear tires is very good.

 

[Kyiv]

Additional alignment info from the FSM is at these links, note that the specs require a full tank of fuel, otherwise weight is to be added to the trunk to simulate a full tank. The second link shows the spreader bar used for setting toe.
http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/ ... 0-0200.pdf
http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/ ... 0-0323.pdf

You really can't go wrong with the dealer as they have the expertise and equipment to do the job right.

Today I took my car to MB Bedford in Ohio for alignment. An above-average-experience dealer, according to reviews


Numbnuts, affirmative action hire service advisor with a smug attitude - check. In a light-hearted manner (1)told him my usual alignment story, that every other alignment I have to return for the steering wheel to be properly re-centered. (2)Mentioned it again half way though paperwork. And (3)again as I was walking away to a waiting area. Pick up the car in 2 hours, drive of the lot.... Steering is 15 to 20!!! degrees off when going straight . I immediately return back to the dealer. My SA is gone for lunch, so service manager sends a "senior" tech for a test drive with me. I specifically did not tell what the issue was until after we were underway, as I wanted to get Tech's natural reaction to this outrage.... And he's natural reaction was to start gearing up to deny the issue ... in the end, it's kind of hard to pretend away 15-20 degrees of off-center steering, so reluctantly, with a semi-dismissive attitude, we confirmed the issue. Before stepping out from the car, I showed him the document from 2nd link above, and asked if this was the procedure alignment tech followed to center the steering wheel:





His response was that the "separation joint of the steering coupling aligning with the meeting notch on the steering gear" is not relevant to properly aligning the car with a perfectly centered steering wheel. He did not respond regarding usage of an arresting device to secure steering wheel in a centered position and I did not press him on it to avoid further confrontation. He was already in a defensive mood.

At any rate, it took alignment tech another 2 hours to fix the issue. I could see him going for 2 test drives and returning to aligment rack to continue to fiddle with it. At the end, he managed to center the steering wheel to an "A" with a fat minus - acceptable, but not quite a perfect job. I just drove home, as that was enough for the day.
===================

WTF is going on? Am I in the insane asilum? Am I the insane? Those of you who are over 50 and were born and raised here has it always been like that or do you also notice some crazy s@it going on?

Lastly, but not least importantly, are the 2 procedures circled in red in the above 2 photos to center the steering wheel for alignment are current and valid?

 

[emerydc8]

WTF is going on? Am I in the insane asilum? Am I the insane? Those of you who are over 50 and were born and raised here has it always been like that or do you also notice some crazy s@it going on?

I have noticed that a lot of businesses are using Covid as an excuse for everything. Most employees are forced to wear a mask and breath in their CO2 waste, so maybe they're hypoxic.

 

[Provet]

The gearbox and steering wheel have to be aligned not to mention your turn signal clip before messing with wheel tow. If steering wheel is straight and driving straight still does not mean aligned. Only aligned if those three are true plus if you turn either direction and release wheel and while moving naturally go back to center. And center should have a little play in wheel like 10-15 degrees. if it dont you still not aligned. If you continue to drive having to align to center manually you will break that linkage on steering colunm stem that look like a spring but is definatelly not, its a hollow piece of tin metal, i have done it! Goodluck

 

[gsxr]

Kiev, you are correct in your assumptions, and the FSM procedure is also correct.

The wildcard is what Provet describes. The steering wheel itself ALSO can be out of place. To check this, you align the notches on the gearbox, and verify the steering wheel is straight. You also must verify that when turned lock-to-lock, the wheel is in the same relative position from center, at max left and max right. The steering wheel connection is splined and will move something like 10° (?) per spline (not sure exactly).

If things still are out of place, there's a faint chance the splined connection at the steering box itself is out of place. This would only happen if the steering box had been removed since it left the factory. This is also why I never, ever remove the connecting U-joint from the steering box, ONLY from the steering shaft side.

 

[sheward]

Today I took my car to MB Bedford in Ohio for alignment. An above-average-experience dealer, according to reviews
View attachment 115519

Numbnuts, affirmative action hire service advisor with a smug attitude - check. In a light-hearted manner (1)told him my usual alignment story, that every other alignment I have to return for the steering wheel to be properly re-centered. (2)Mentioned it again half way though paperwork. And (3)again as I was walking away to a waiting area. Pick up the car in 2 hours, drive of the lot.... Steering is 15 to 20!!! degrees off when going straight . I immediately return back to the dealer. My SA is gone for lunch, so service manager sends a "senior" tech for a test drive with me. I specifically did not tell what the issue was until after we were underway, as I wanted to get Tech's natural reaction to this outrage.... And he's natural reaction was to start gearing up to deny the issue ... in the end, it's kind of hard to pretend away 15-20 degrees of off-center steering, so reluctantly, with a semi-dismissive attitude, we confirmed the issue. Before stepping out from the car, I showed him the document from 2nd link above, and asked if this was the procedure alignment tech followed to center the steering wheel:

View attachment 115520

View attachment 115521

His response was that the "separation joint of the steering coupling aligning with the meeting notch on the steering gear" is not relevant to properly aligning the car with a perfectly centered steering wheel. He did not respond regarding usage of an arresting device to secure steering wheel in a centered position and I did not press him on it to avoid further confrontation. He was already in a defensive mood.

At any rate, it took alignment tech another 2 hours to fix the issue. I could see him going for 2 test drives and returning to aligment rack to continue to fiddle with it. At the end, he managed to center the steering wheel to an "A" with a fat minus - acceptable, but not quite a perfect job. I just drove home, as that was enough for the day.
===================

WTF is going on? Am I in the insane asilum? Am I the insane? Those of you who are over 50 and were born and raised here has it always been like that or do you also notice some crazy s@it going on?

Lastly, but not least importantly, are the 2 procedures circled in red in the above 2 photos to center the steering wheel for alignment are current and valid?

View attachment 115522

No, it has not always been this way. Nearly no one cares to learn their trade properly and fully and pride in workmanship has all but disappeared for many reasons I suspect you already understand. I miss it so.

drew

 

[Kyiv]

The wildcard is what Provet describes. The steering wheel itself ALSO can be out of place. To check this, you align the notches on the gearbox, and verify the steering wheel is straight.

Dave, to make sure I do have this correct: firstly, the steering wheel is centered, then to make sure it's a "true" center, one should check if separation joint of the steering coupling aligns with the marking notch of the steering gear, correct? If it does align, THEN the technician can proceed with aligning the car?

What boggles my mind is that the tech spend more than 2 hours trying to center the steering wheel, going for test drives in the process, yet still did not nail it . Since the steering box was never removed from the car - so I believe it is fine - the only thing that I find as a culprit is technician not using an arresting tool, as per FSM.

In 2.5 year in VA, I've had 2 aliments over 4 separate visits at the same local dealer. Every time I had to return for the steering wheel to be properly centered , and they always got it PERFECT the 2nd time. Now, in Ohio, I've armed myself with a FSM to show the advisor/tech in case VA dealer pattern persisted here, and yet it still did not help. On Wednesday I'm going back for re-centering of the steering wheel. 2 visits per aliment, 3 aliments straight: USSR is being reincarnated

This would only happen if the steering box had been removed since it left the factory.

As far as I know it has never been removed. Thus far all of the parts I've replaced on my car were original, down to valve cover gaskets, brake hoses, motor mounts, wheel carrier joint support, etc

 

[Kyiv]

No, it has not always been this way. Nearly no one cares to learn their trade properly and fully and pride in workmanship has all but disappeared for many reasons I suspect you already understand. I miss it so.

Of the ones I can mention here, I think multiple choice testing, coupled with grading on the curve is one of the main causal thrusts.

 

[gsxr]

Dave, to make sure I do have this correct: firstly, the steering wheel is centered, then to make sure it's a "true" center, one should check if separation joint of the steering coupling aligns with the marking notch of the steering gear, correct? If it does align, THEN the technician can proceed with aligning the car?

Correct! It's far more common to find the steering wheel off by 1 spline, than to find the steering box not aligned. Steering wheels come off more often than steering boxes. Especially on the W124 with M119 where steering box R&R is miserable.

In 2.5 year in VA, I've had 2 aliments over 4 separate visits at the same local dealer. Every time I had to return for the steering wheel to be properly centered , and they always got it PERFECT the 2nd time. Now, in Ohio, I've armed myself with a FSM to show the advisor/tech in case VA dealer pattern persisted here, and yet it still did not help. On Wednesday I'm going back for re-centering of the steering wheel. 2 visits per aliment, 3 aliments straight: USSR is being reincarnated

Holy cow - it really took 2 visits each time? That's crazy. I don't understand why they don't understand...

 

[Kyiv]

Holy cow - it really took 2 visits each time? That's crazy. I don't understand why they don't understand...

Yes! now for the 3rd time in a row. My only guess is that no one uses FSM procedure, which calls the steering arresting device (part # 129 589 01 21 00). Tech sets steering wheel straight, but while performing alignment, the wheel shifts a little. I'm certain no one bothers to check if the separation joint of the steering coupling aligns with the marking notch of the steering gear either.

 

[liviu165]

Yes! now for the 3rd time in a row.

That's my case too, but on W126. First guy did not the keep the steering wheel straight. Wasn't too bad when I drove the car, but enough to bother me. He also lied to me that the camber on the passenger side is at the end of its adjustment. First I took his word, then at home I checked and noticed he lied. I installed new shocks and then I went back for an alignment re-check. I specifically requested that the steering wheel be centered. A different guy did the alignment and he got the steering wheel a bit better, but still not good enough.

How hard could it be to set the steering wheel straight and secure it that way? Now I plan on going to a different shop, that would be my third attempt.

FSM procedure? Nobody knows about it in these modern times. I made my own spreader bar and take it with me at alignment shops because they don't have any - the modern cars don't require any, so they don't know about it. When the alignment guy saw it (two years ago when I did the alignment on the 560SEC), he put it the wrong way (behind the spindles, not ahead of them), I had to correct him. I find it pretty embarrassing when a customer has to correct an "expert".

 

[Kyiv]

How hard could it be to set the steering wheel straight and secure it that way?

Honestly, I don't know which question is more complex. This one or whether there is life after death.

 

[alabbasi]

+2. You really can't go wrong with the dealer as they have the expertise and equipment to do the job right.

Yeah you can, a friend of mine here in Dallas who's a very competent mechanic completely rebuilt the front end on his 04 S500 using Lemforder parts that I ordered for him. After he was finished, he insisted on taking it to the dealer for an alignment. When they saw that he used new aftermarket parts, they refused to do the alignment unless all these parts were removed and factory parts were installed by them. It was a BS move to sell additional service.

As far as a W124, the majority of cars that show up at dealerships are under 4 years old and dealer techs don't like to work on older cars. They get very quick at working on new cars and can run a lot of hours because they become very familiar with the the cars and their issues. Binging a 30 year old car to a new car dealer will not likely get you better service as it's not likely that they will know the car and it's hard for someone to appreciate a job that they're losing money on. I've had dealer tech friends do side jobs for me and they straight up told me that they would work on my 5 year old car, but don't want to have anything to do with my older ones.

Unless you find a tech that's been around for 30 years and still works there, I expect that you'd get better service from an independent where the tech's cut their teeth at a dealer back when these cars were new, and then went on to do their own thing. I'm sure that there are dealerships that have experienced techs that know these cars and are enthusiastic about them, but I would not count on every dealer to have them.

 

[Kyiv]

Today I went for a previously scheduled and confirmed appointment via online portal for the steering wheel re-centering. SA couldn't find it Apparently "system glitch" We did reschedule and he was apologetic, but one can't make this stuff up...

I recently watched a "Moscow on the Hudson" (1984) with Robin Williams. Movie's full of cheesey scenes caricaturing daily reality in USSR. I think it's time for a "Washington DC on Moscow River" (2020)

 

[Kyiv]

So, been to MB of Bedford, OH for the 3rd time today. I switched from a affirmative-action hire, numbnuts advisor, to a much younger person with signs of being conscious. Apparently, he did some homework and they had a steering wheel arresting bar and a spreader bar ready . 5 hours later I left with, for-now-it-seems to be properly centered steering wheel. They were happy to see me go, clearly hoping I don't come back . They did charge me another $100 though. So in total, my alignment came out to $310. I did not want to argue, as I needed them to "feel bad" and do the job right this time. Dealer back in Virginia, to whom I also had to come back after two separate alignments for steering wheel re-centering, would "threaten" me with additional charges, but always waived them.

At any rate, who knows what:

1. "track diff. angle +/- degree for left and right front wheels mean? They are in red in the 1st photo. SA did not know and neither did alignment tech
2. I know rear camber is not adjustable, but is -1.29 and -1.38 within the expected range? My car is not modified in any way/shape/form?

Thanks

 

[Jlaa]

@kiev,

Here are the results of the latest alignment in Jan 2017 that I got from my local independent shop. They bought a spreader bar for my alignment just to make sure they got it right --- because this was the 2nd alignment that they did for me after I complained of off-center-steering from the first alignment a few weeks earlier.

Since Jan 2017 I have been perfectly happy with this alignment. I don't know what "track diff angle" means, but I will note that my .036 has more negative camber than your .034 .... and my suspension is stock.

 

[Kyiv]

I complained of off-center-steering