Valve body problem again need help lol

[Ertech]

Hi guys toke my valve body off and I was told a late vb should not have the plastic circle in the center
the fgs start one I have does not have one
First 2 picture are e420
then 2 others are E500 stock one on next post
is this correct. Should i install the fgs without the round plastic circle?

 

[gerryvz]

Late (E420) valve bodies generally DO NOT have the circular valve in the middle of the valve body, because they are not required, as later transmissions don't have a secondary pump.

Early (400E) valve bodies have the circular valves, as they have the secondary pump. 500Es and E500s should be the same, although I do not know the cutoff on the transmission number. However, generally it is appropriate for a 69 15 valve body NOT to have a round valve.

If the transmission you are installing the valve body onto HAS a secondary pump, then you should apply the valve. If not, then you shouldn't need it. I hope you have an intermediate plate, if applicable to your situation.

I have a new MB spare valve in my parts stock. The part number is 126 277 19 36, and it is around $2.50 to buy new. You also have to have the tiny spring, part number 126 993 20 02, price ~$1.50. It's important to have these esoteric parts in one's "hoard"

 

[Ertech]

Stock one with round plastic

 

[gerryvz]

You need to confirm (visually or via EPC) whether your specific transmission has a secondary oil pump, or not. If your stock valve body has the circular valve, then it's likely that the replacement valve body will need to have a circular valve installed.

Your 140 270 67 07 is an appropriate valve body for a stock E500E for transmission number 722370 03 747000 and later, according to the EPC.

Dave and/or Klink will have to confirm whether all E500Es had secondary pumps, or of the pumps were phased out during E500E production, on those models. I believe the pumps were phased out across all 722.3 transmission production.

Interestingly, the EPC specifies that my E500 (late 1993 production, but early 1994 model year) SHOULD have a circular valve.

Attached is a photo of where the secondary pump is located. It's at the rear end of the transmission, just ahead of the tail-shaft (output shaft). If the transmission doesn't have a secondary pump, then it will have a metal plate over that hole. It's located on the side of the transmission that has the B1 and B2 piston covers, and the transmission cooler and dipstick....NOT the side with the neutral safety switch.

I HIGHLY recommend you use the intermediate plate that came with your valve body.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Ertech]

Gerry thanks for your help ,how do I visualize the secondary pump?I do have the intermediate plate that came with the E420
so confused
can you tell anything from my stock VB part number?

 

[Ertech]

This is what I found in epc
I have a late vb with plastic piece inside
should I just install the plastic piece on the E420 vb and leave the plate alone
my p/n stock is 1402706707

 

[Ertech]

Ok got it. You type to fast lol
So if my car has a pump or no pump its irrelevent if I installl the plate that came with the E420?

 

[Stevester 500E]

That is what I am able to surmise from Gerry's info.

So maybe we can make some more educated conclusions with my following experience, or maybe not?
I have seen valve bodies stamped with 124 270 69 15, some with the circular valve and some without?
Does any critical thinker out their have any conjecture that can drawn from all of this regarding intermediate plates, transmissions, and circular valves? Give me a minute, I am sure I can pull something out of my....my... hat.

Ok got it. You type to fast lol
So if my car has a pump or no pump its irrelevent if I installl the plate that came with the E420?

 

[Stevester 500E]

Educated guess, sort of..
I think that the later 124 270 69 15 valve body can be used with an early or late transmission.
I think the 124 270 69 15 valve body is probably an upgraded part that was used on transmissions that do and don't have the secondary pump.

As Gerry stated, the key of whether to use the circular valve and springs depends on whether the transmission has a secondary pump or not.

How do intermediate plates play a role in all this?
Does the plate one uses (early or late style) have to do with the transmission or whether a circular valve is used, whether it be an early valve body (124 270 40 15) or a late valve body (124 270 69 15)?

 

[Ertech]

finished the job love the mod
I put the E420 plate and VB no plastic circle and car is AMAZING
thanks guys

 

[Klink]

My observation is that while I'm sure there is a VIN and/or transmission number break point, I have never seen a USA version vehicle with a 722.3, 4, or 5 of MY 1992 or newer with a secondary pump. When they went, it kind of pissed me off, but only because LJK Setright keenly observed that MB's persistence with the fitting of secondary pumps proved that they were "designed to stay reliable even when they were broke down"

 

[gerryvz]

So Klink, you’re saying that basically any E500E as well as E420/400E produced DOES NOT have a secondary pump?

So why would early 034 models and evidently early and late 036 models retain the round plastic valve in the valve body, if it was not needed?

Was the center valve required for some other purpose not related to the secondary pump?

 

[Klink]

In the EPC, the pumps are shown as inapplicable to any USA version .034 or .036 transmission.

The valve is shown as inapplicable to any .034 transmission.

The valve IS shown for the .036 transmissions without any details. For all of the 722.3 transmissions, WIS states that the valve is "not used anymore after the omission of the secondary pump"

I read this as, "you may find a valve there, but if there is no secondary pump, it isn't doing anything" but that is only my guess at this point...

 

[gerryvz]

Then, I wonder why some valve bodies had the plastic circular valves in them. Weird. I've very recently sold .034 valve bodies with and without them. Current one is a late 1993 model and it has one, but obviously no secondary pump.

 

[samiam44]

Klink,

What was the secondary pump's purpose? I thought it just ensured oiling if you were in neutral and driving.. or pull starting a car? Not sure how it added reliability? Have you had a front pump fail?

 

[Klink]

Klink,

What was the secondary pump's purpose? I thought it just ensured oiling if you were in neutral and driving.. or pull starting a car? Not sure how it added reliability? Have you had a front pump fail?

The secondary pumps did two things. First, they could supply some lubrication if the car was rolling and the engine was off. Even more importantly, they could generate enough operating pressure that one could tow start the vehicle or, alternately, start it while rolling down a long hill. It “added reliability” by enabling you to possibly start the engine if you had a defective starter, defective starter circuit and/or enough battery capacity to power your engine management but not enough to crank the engine. It also enhanced reliability by making sure that the transmission components were lubricated if the vehicle was being towed with the drive wheels on the ground.

Yes, I have seen failed front/main pumps. There are multiple causes for that, one of the more common being missing dowel pins between the engine and the transmission. Without them, precise centering is not possible. Bushings can wear excessively and/or seize to the converter drive flange. Sometimes the driving lugs get ripped off
the sun gear of the pump. Sometimes the ring gear of the pump splits...

 

[gsxr]

I don't think the plastic valve matters at all, if there is no secondary pump. A 1994 E500 would definitely not have the secondary pump, ASSUMING the transmission is original. Ertech, you need to check the serial number stamped on the transmission and compare to the datacard. Regardless, there is no problem installing the #69 VB in your E500 trans without the plastic valve; assuming there is no secondary pump as shown in the photo Gerry attached to post #4.

 

[samiam44]

Thanks Klink,

That makes a lot of sense. Not tranmission reliability, but overall car =0). Never seen a car missing dowel pins in a long time. I can remember the fun of MGBs where you pull the engine to replace the clutch and there must be a dozen and a half 1/4 bolts holding the 2 together.

 

[doolar]

Did we reach a conclusion here? I'm installing a FGS VB to my car, my transmission serial: 722365 03 808251

The FGS VB is from a later car P/N 124 270 69 15

The VB in my car does have the circular valve, the FGS VB does not. I can of course move over the valve to the FGS body. What say you experts, shall I move it over?

 

[gsxr]

Did we reach a conclusion here? I'm installing a FGS VB to my car, my transmission serial: 722365 03 808251

The FGS VB is from a later car P/N 124 270 69 15

The VB in my car does have the circular valve, the FGS VB does not. I can of course move over the valve to the FGS body. What say you experts, shall I move it over?

Depends if you want/need the secondary pump to still function in your car (assuming your car has the secondary pump). If you don't care, just install the late VB as-is.

I don't know if the circular valve will enable the secondary pump to function normally with a late VB installed.

I also have never seen any W124 tow-started, which is the only function the secondary pump provides...

 

[doolar]

Depends if you want/need the secondary pump to still function in your car (assuming your car has the secondary pump). If you don't care, just install the late VB as-is.

I don't know if the circular valve will enable the secondary pump to function normally with a late VB installed.

I also have never seen any W124 tow-started, which is the only function the secondary pump provides...

I have no intentions of tow starting ever, if the car breaks down it will be on a trailer home.

Thank you as always Dave, I'm not installing the FGS VB just yet, I'm cleaning it with a full disassembly, trying to document it for a How-to here. That sort of doubles the time it takes to do the job.

I'll wait and decide when I'm there, but most likely I'll leave the valve out then.

 

[jhodg5ck]

push starting an automatic is fun, impress your family, make new friends!

I used to park my old 280SE at the top of a hill Just So I could pop the parking brake and she'd roll up to about 15 mph, slap her into low and Vroom! Fun little parlor trick.

Also, quick story while I feel like typing, when we did the Petrolicious video on the Hammer Wagon the first day I got 2 clicks from the starter during the shoot, NBD...should be OK for a bit yet. Nope. Next day, we're about half way through and it just Stops. Sweet, we're waaaaaay up in the north GA mtns, still have about 6 hours or so of filming yet to do. We wait for a good hour, I'm pouring water on the starter, trying to cool it, give it a few taps with a small hammer I had in my tool kit just because...Nothin.

As luck would have it, I had parked the car at the top of a Long grade, so the guys pushed me back from my spot and gave her a good shove. Got up to about 10mph, and tried it.....wouldn't fire, Quick back to neutral, got up to 15+, slapped her down and Vroooooooom! That was around 2 pm. I didn't turn the car off till around 2 AM that night. She got a work out, plus a Lot of spirited driving.

Anyway, its nice having a rear pump IMHO.