Water pump replacement

[rockingchairmotors]

Just picked up my second 500e that needs some love. Bought from a dealer and it has sat for about a year. It runs and drives but needs a lot of love. First it is leaking water.

There seems to be a hose from the bottom of the pump that goes somewhere to the bottom of the engine? Am I correct? Is goes into something (square block)? Both pictures show the water dripping from either the hose or from that "something" square block. Does this mean the water pump is bad?

Is there a wiki on replacing the water pump?

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[gsxr]

The square block is a reservoir for the pump weep hole. Fantastic example of Mercedes over-engineering. Normally there is zero liquid from the weep hole, but in the odd case where there is a little, this hose+tank assembly catches it, so there are no antifreeze drips. This setup was eliminated as of ~1995 production on the M119.

Anyway - if coolant is dropping from the tank, it is likely full, and getting more liquid entering than normal. So you are probably right that the water pump is in need of replacement. So much has to come off the front of the engine to replace the water pump, there are a couple of other "while you are in there" jobs recommended... the front crank seal if you have the tools required (hub puller & 300 lb-ft torque wrench); probably the power steering hose below the reservoir, the tandem pump front seal if there's any sign of leak there, and probably a couple of other things I'm forgetting. If you do the crank seal, offset it 3mm from the original position. If you plan to run synthetic oil, DEFINITELY replace the front crank seal. (Don't ask how I know.)

BTW - if your new 500E is a 'keeper', consider an OE/dealer rebuilt water pump, they're not terribly expensive. If you go aftermarket, get the Graf pump, not Meyle. P/N for the pump is 119-200-15-01.

 

[nocfn]

I'll second the while you are in there on the crank seal. Did not replace the c126 seal when I did the job, guess where my slight oil leak is from.... I replaced water pump 3 years ago.

 

[Klink]

The square block is a reservoir for the pump weep hole. Fantastic example of Mercedes over-engineering. Normally there is zero liquid from the weep hole, but in the odd case where there is a little, this hose+tank assembly catches it, so there are no antifreeze drips. This setup was eliminated as of ~1995 production on the M119.

Anyway - if coolant is dropping from the tank, it is likely full, and getting more liquid entering than normal. So you are probably right that the water pump is in need of replacement. So much has to come off the front of the engine to replace the water pump, there are a couple of other "while you are in there" jobs recommended... the front crank seal if you have the tools required (hub puller & 300 lb-ft torque wrench); probably the power steering hose below the reservoir, the tandem pump front seal if there's any sign of leak there, and probably a couple of other things I'm forgetting. If you do the crank seal, offset it 3mm from the original position. If you plan to run synthetic oil, DEFINITELY replace the front crank seal. (Don't ask how I know.)

BTW - if your new 500E is a 'keeper', consider an OE/dealer rebuilt water pump, they're not terribly expensive. If you go aftermarket, get the Graf pump, not Meyle. P/N for the pump is 119-200-15-01.

Oh yes, the coolant pump shaft seal diaper...

Back in the day, the most common coolant leak point, by many orders of magnitude, was the coolant pump shaft seal. Most of these cars got at least one coolant pump replacement before they were out of warranty. There was a period of time in the late 80s-early 90s when they decided that we technicians were just dumb asses, and that every time we saw the tiniest bit of crust around a coolant pump weep hole, we would call it a leak and replace the pump. The idea of the tank was exactly as you would guess: "If you didn't see coolant running out of the tank, then it isn't a leaky pump, so stop trying to steal from us, you mouth breathing, unibrow, knuckle dragging thieves!"

Well, I can only guess that the tanks did not reduce the warranty claim rate, so they were eliminated later on. Around the same time, they must have improved the seals and/or bearings tremendously. From about '97 onwards, and with each new engine series introduced, the coolant pumps became tremendously durable.

Nowadays, is not uncommon to see VERY well over 150,000 miles, even 200K on coolant pumps. Interestingly enough, whereas the seals would barely lasts 30,000 miles back in the day, now 113 engine cars come in at 170K for a noise complaint. You lift the hood and literally see the shaftof the original pump ricocheting around in several millimeters of play. The interesting part? Not a drop of coolant leaking out of it...

Fortunately, it seems that these dramatically improved seals were incorporated into the replacement parts for older vehicles. A 116/117/early 119 replacement pump seems to last at least three times longer than the ones originally delivered with the new vehicles...

 

[JC220]

So much has to come off the front of the engine to replace the water pump, there are a couple of other "while you are in there" jobs recommended... the front crank seal if you have the tools required (hub puller & 300 lb-ft torque wrench)

I need to tackle waterpump R&R myself this coming weekend- I found some info here

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/132874-m119-water-pump-replacement-any-tips.html

Good pics of split damper-

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/135391-w124-m119-water-pump-removal-tips-caveats.html

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w12...s.html#/forumsite/20548/topics/1727511?page=1

The most interesting comments to me are relating to the crank damper.

1; There are notches that can be used to access the water pump bolts
2; Remove the 6 bolts & split the damper- thus not requiring dealing with the centre nut

What are your thoughts on this Dave? Are the notches applicable to an early m119 or late only? (I can't see notches on mine). What else has to come off the motor at a minimum in your experience? I do hope the tandem pump bracket can stay in place.

 

[gsxr]

I don't believe there are any notches to allow access to the lower bolts... pretty sure the harmonic balancer has to come off, as shown in those threads, at least for the 1992-1994 engines with 2-pc balancer. As noted, you don't have to remove the hub / 27mm bolt on the 2-pc balancer setup.

For the late 1-pc balancer, there are open areas in the balancer... but I don't know if those allow access to the water pump bolts. Only very late build Euro-spec E500's would have this, the engine break point was after the last USA model imported (IIRC).

 

[samiam44]

Silly,

Pull the whole thing [hub+balancer] and put a new [front crank] seal in the car. Can disassemble on the bench to re install.

 

[gsxr]

Pull the whole thing and put a new seal in the car. Can disassemble on the bench to re install.

I agree. The balancer can be a real PITA to separate from the hub either on or off the car. Soaking with Kroil/etc as Neil recommended helps. Once they are apart you can clean the mating surfaces so they are a proper slip-fit for installation.

 

[nocfn]

if I might add to this, I did the C126 a few years back. First the hub bolts are specific and ordered, at least on the M117 so keep that in mind. I sanded away some corrosion on the washers and let the ting soak overnight with pb blaster forward and aft of the Harmonic Balancer. Next morning (about 10 hour soak) I took a length of PVC pipe 1/2" x 24" and with rubber mallet, I began sharp blows along the hole pattern area, crisscross and circular. After 10-15 blows, I grabbed 12/6 10/2 9/3 and began to shake vigorously. Wrapped a few more times with the PVC / mallet and did it again and voila! Just don't smack the ends of it with the hammer, only the center bolt pattern area with PVC. The tolerances are .000 MM so the corrosion and grease, heat and time keeps it snug. Alas, it came off but without a nut removal, I failed to see the seal and now that leaks a bit. Don't forget that.

 

[JC220]

Ok I will order up a new crank seal from MB and begin taking the pump out this weekend. I will create a DIY on here for 500E specific Water pump renewal.

For undoing that centre crank nut at home – is using the starter motor & breaker bar lodged against chassis ill advised? Or a huge breaker bar better?


Last question – what is the best way to securely lock the crank on a m119? (In order to achieve the required torque on that centre bolt) I do have a ½ inch air impact wrench I will try it also but not convinced it will be able to remove that bolt.

 

[emerydc8]

Getting that bolt off is difficult. I think you will need the special tool ($$$) that inserts where the starter is or you can pull a bolt from the torque converter and replace it with a hardened bolt and sleeve. I tried standing on a breaker bar and couldn't undo the bolt. I ended up having to use a floor jack under the breaker bar and it lifted the engine up before the bolt came loose.

Getting the bolt torqued on is another story. I don't think they make a torque wrench that goes that high and even if they did, you'd just about have to stand on the end of it to get that kind of torque. I think the guys at the dealer told me that they would go to the max on their torque wrench and then go another half turn.

There is a special tool to press in the front seal. It has two sides so you can either press the seal in to the depth of the original seal or, if there are running scores, you can press it in deeper using the other side of the tool.

If you can get the water pump off without, I wouldn't mess with the crank bolt.

 

[nocfn]

If your crank seal isn't leaking on the m119, let it be IMO. It isn't as prone to issue as the previous m117.

 

[gsxr]

Front crank bolt comes off fairly easily with a good 1/2" air impact wrench. Installing / torquing to spec will likely require a 3/4" torque wrench, I'm not aware of any 1/2" wrenches that go to 400Nm / 295 lb-ft (at least not without adapters). Don't forget to oil the washers/threads as described in the FSM. Make sure you can obtain the torque wrench before you remove everything.

The late engines (95-up) with 1-pc pulley/hub/damper use a different bolt/washer assembly, btw, that is 200Nm + 90°.

Crank seal pics here: http://124performance.com/images/M119/crank_seal/

 

[samiam44]

Honestly if you have a beam torque wrench, measure the pivot distance. Get a 1/2 extension an a piece of square tubing.. take it to a welder and tell him you want it xx inches between the 2 halves. Five minute job max or you find a 3/4 inch torque wrench.

M

 

[rockingchairmotors]

Thanks for all of the input. I want to do the work on this car myself as much as possible. So I'm going to be asking for lots of help. Some might be stupid questions but please bear with me. I have done minor mechanical work on my cars, brakes, oil change etc.

So first off.

I guess I need to buy a workshop CD for the w124. Where? Dealer? Ebay?

Anything I can/should do while the CD is in route?

 

[emerydc8]

Is your model year the type that you even have to take the crank bolt out to replace the water pump? If it's not, like nocfn said, I'd probably leave it alone unless the front seal was leaking. The crank/ring gear lock tool that goes in where the starter goes was really expensive when I checked ten years ago (it looks like it came down to $210 now), and you risk the bolt breaking while torquing if you use the bolt/sleeve method on the torque converter. In either case, it won't be fun trying to stand on the torque wrench in the engine compartment. I guess you could hang on it if you have a shop lift.

Installing retaining lock for crank/ring gear:
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/03-5000.pdf

Replacing front seal:
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/03-3240.pdf

The crank lock is $210:
http://www.mboemparts.com/oe-mercedes-benz/116589014000

The seal tool is $62.40
http://www.mboemparts.com/oe-mercedes-benz/119589011400

 

[samiam44]

Pm me and I can probably loan you the lock and seal tool. You can get the miller veRion cheap on ebay.

 

[samiam44]

I can give you dimensions, if you have lathe acess?

 

[JC220]

Getting that bolt off is difficult. I think you will need the special tool ($$$) that inserts where the starter is or you can pull a bolt from the torque converter and replace it with a hardened bolt and sleeve. I tried standing on a breaker bar and couldn't undo the bolt. I ended up having to use a floor jack under the breaker bar and it lifted the engine up before the bolt came loose.

Getting the bolt torqued on is another story. I don't think they make a torque wrench that goes that high and even if they did, you'd just about have to stand on the end of it to get that kind of torque. I think the guys at the dealer told me that they would go to the max on their torque wrench and then go another half turn.

There is a special tool to press in the front seal. It has two sides so you can either press the seal in to the depth of the original seal or, if there are running scores, you can press it in deeper using the other side of the tool.

If you can get the water pump off without, I wouldn't mess with the crank bolt.

Thankyou for your posts on this subject! Really great info.

OK so I got under my 500E this morning to have a close look at the front crank seal. It is bone dry & very clean all around. Therefore I am inclined to agree with emerydc8 & leave that centre bolt well alone considering the special tools needed & having to remove the starter etc also.

Should the crank seal ever weep then I will delve into that job of course- but right now I need to get the waterpump swapped out only. I will begin soaking the crank bolts in penetrating oil for a few days in advance. Thankfully the smaller bolts in my crank pulley are normal bolts for once (Not Allen drive)


Rockingchairmotors it does look like your crank seal is leaking but it could equally be from the upper cam magnets – worth checking those for oil leaks first.

 

[emerydc8]

I'm looking at the FSM for removing the coolant pump (20-2100) and the "previous work" requires "Belt pulley/vibration damper removed (03-3420)." Job 03-3420 requires that the crank bolt be removed. Looking at the pre-8/1994 picture versus post, does anyone know if the damper really has to come off on the later model in order to remove the water pump, or can the water pump bolts come out through the slots in the damper? JC220, what type damper do you have on your car?

 

[JC220]

My car is a 1992 (119.974)– it has the solid 8 rib crank damper. It sure is a shame the later crank pulleys are 6 rib belts – otherwise it might have been an upgrade. Since my car has most all new pulley system parts for the early 8 rib belt I’ll stick with the early damper.

 

[gsxr]

...does anyone know if the damper really has to come off on the later model in order to remove the water pump, or can the water pump bolts come out through the slots in the damper? JC220, what type damper do you have on your car?

Jon, I am not sure if you can access the bolts through the holes on the late style single-piece damper. Sounds like you might be the guinea pig unless someone else can confirm...? If the damper does have to come out, at least you can use a normal 1/2" torque wrench to re-install (see post #13). That last 90° could be a bear though.

JC's 500E is a 1992 so he should have the early multi-piece damper.

 

[500AMM]

Just some basic physics as a practical approach to the 400Nm torque on the early type center bolt:

- 400 Nm / 9,81 ≈ 41 Kgm which means 41 Kg on a 1 meter long bar

- double the bar length to 2 meters and reduce the weigth to 20,5 Kg

- stand on a scale with the bar, add 20,5 Kg to the weight shown on the scale, let's say it will be 110 Kg

- hook up the tool to the center bolt and push straight upwards in one slow motion until the scale reads 110 Kg

- you have now achieved a torque very close the requested 400 Nm

- it is not over tightened, because the bar was included with your body weight, so I guess you have about 5% margin

 

[samiam44]

By looking at the original photo- there is lots of oil residue. I've been bit by not changing the crank seal, that soon after it leaked... did the job twice. I don't think the crank lock or seal driver are a big deal. The torque wrench has been disussed how to get around not having the exact 400nm tool.

I'll ask this another way? So do you feel confident- the current seal will be leak-free for the life of the water pump or the next xxx miles? You are in there- I would do it. The rear seals seem to hold up better, but my limited M119 experience- both cars needed seals. One was a major leaker, the other one the back side of the HB was always oily. Interestingly, both cars fell the same way on water pumps. One was a major leaker, the other just minor dripple when dead cold.

I'm just trying to save you from doing the job twice!

 

[gsxr]

I've owned more than a dozen different M119 engines, and almost every single one had a leaking front crank seal which I had to replace. The rear seals almost never leak, or at least are much, much less common of a problem - thank goodness!

The front seal can be done in ~4 hours DIY but the rear is more like 12-15 DIY hours since the transmission has to come out, then you should re-seal the tranny while it's out, and pray you don't mess up the rear seal and have to do the job twice or thrice.

 

[emerydc8]

Thanks, Dave. I'll take a look this week. Hopefully the crank bolt will not have to come off. I can't imagine MB going backwards in their design. I see that the PO had the water pump changed about 50,000 miles ago and the shop only charged $200 in labor. That could be a good sign.

 

[JC220]

Ok I got started tonight – see pics attached at where I got to. The 6 bolts are out of the crank pulley front and it’s soaked with a penetrating solution now.


Jury’s still out on the crank seal but – I hear ya ! In any case I want to remove the balancer first. Then I can draw up the bolt pattern & design / fabricate a tool of my own to securely lock the crank from the front of the motor. Why?

A; Taking the Starter out is a total PITA
B; The lock pin pictured above might bend / break off in the TC housing – another PITA.

The tool I will make will be very strong and secured via all 6 bolts to the pulley hub. Possibly back to the big belt tensioner bolt slot to secure the tool to. Then a breaker bar will remove that centre bolt. For re-tightening I will buy a 400nm ¾ Teng Torque wrench and know it’s torqued back correctly (And a new MB bolt).

A couple of questions just to help progress –

Will the pulley part that the belt runs on come off first? Then the balancer behind it? (Ie; 3 parts total including the hub) samiam44- Yes please If you don't mind can you provide dimensions of the oil seal seating tool? I do have access to a Lathe etc.

 

[gsxr]

Forgot to mention - the flywheel lock took does not require starter removal. There is a place on the driver side where the tool fits; you remove a sheetmetal cover and the lock slide into place. However, you MAY need to remove the exhaust crossover pipe to access this (I can't remember). I agree, starter removal is a PITA.

About your other question, yes, the pulley will come out first. With the 6 small bolts removed the pulley should pop out if you gently tap it with a hammer and/or prybar. It's the balancer that is often semi-seized to the hub. If you decide to pull the hub and change the seal, a puller is required, but the cheap 3-arm balancer pullers (free rentals at AutoZone, etc in USA) work fine, like this one. Heating the hub is required to re-install as a slip-fit.

 

[JC220]

Dave how much heat is needed for the hub before re-installing? (Would a butane torch be enough?) I'm guessing too much heat could also damage the new oil seal.

Thanks for the tip on the puller- I hadn't seen one of those harmonic balancer pullers before. I would like to fabricate my own tool for locking the crank but thinking more about it locking the flywheel from below would be a better option than holding the front hub. (Risk of damage to woodruff key or hub casting might fracture) I'll take a look at the area directly under the motor where the locking pin was pictured above in post 11.

 

[emerydc8]

If I recall, I just applied heat to the hub from a butane torch for a few minutes, evenly distributed, and it did the trick.

If you decide to use the torque converter bolt as a crank lock, you should get a hardened bolt for that.

And like Dave said, sometimes the balancer is semi-seized to the hub. Although, in my case, no amount of prying or hammering would budge it. The only way to get it off was to remove the crank bolt. The diameter of the three large washers on the crank bolt was larger than the hole in the damper, so I couldn't walk the damper off without removing the crank bolt. Maybe Mercedes was using up old dampers from another model.

 

[gsxr]

FSM says to heat the hub to 50°C to allow a slip-fit installation... an electric hot plate works fine, use an IR thermometer to monitor the tmeperature:
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/03-3420.pdf

 

[samiam44]

Metallurgy, heat treated part won't change properties till 300+f. Now, the seal is nbroken rubber, which has operatin range.
Drop it on a cast iron pan in the oven. 200f. I lube it up with synthetic grease. Leave for 30 minutes, and it should slip on. Bolt will pull it up. Just need to get the keyway started.
my 500e, the balancer was a tightfit, not seized.

M

 

[samiam44]

Nbr

 

[emerydc8]

Forgot to mention - the flywheel lock took does not require starter removal. There is a place on the driver side where the tool fits; you remove a sheetmetal cover and the lock slide into place. However, you MAY need to remove the exhaust crossover pipe to access this (I can't remember). I agree, starter removal is a PITA.

Is this only with the transmission removed?

 

[samiam44]

I will measure the tool. It is a miller 9101

 

[samiam44]

Lock goes on the front side.

 

[samiam44]

Exhaust in place.

 

[gsxr]

Is this only with the transmission removed?

The lock actually plugs into holes in the transmission housing, so it only works with the tranny+engine bolted together. Michael says it can be installed with the exhaust in place, which is a bonus... I haven't done this in a few years so my memory is foggy (as usual). I added this to my list of "photos to take", as I don't have a picture of the lock tool installed...

 

[emerydc8]

Interesting. Does it plug into the bottom of the bell housing in my pic in post #11? Maybe that's what the two holes on the bottom are for. It sure would be easier than taking the starter out.

 

[JC220]

I will measure the tool. It is a miller 9101

Thanks Samiam – however I think now I might buy the tool from my dealer to save having to make one. If I do design & fabricate a crank lock tool for the centre lower opening I will post details here.


I think you guys have officially talked me into changing the front crank seal. Just a shame that the £9.60 seal requires £359 of tools to replace. (£125 for Torque wrench with 400nm range, £10 27mm ¾ socket, £56 seal tool & £168 for lock tool)

 

[samiam44]

Try this one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MILLER-TOOL...:g:nK0AAOSwGotWjTLF&item=111405793612&vxp=mtr


The crank lock would be easy to make if you can purchase the teeth(which is bolted on). Then it's 2 pins with a set spacing on a piece of bar stock. Easy doesn't mean you won't spend a day making it...

Dave please double check my miller tool number!

M

 

[nocfn]

now send it to me when you are done, and you will get the rent until it is paid for. I am sure we will get it to pay for itself 2-3x over the next few years.

 

[JC220]

Try this one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MILLER-TOOL...:g:nK0AAOSwGotWjTLF&item=111405793612&vxp=mtr


The crank lock would be easy to make if you can purchase the teeth(which is bolted on). Then it's 2 pins with a set spacing on a piece of bar stock. Easy doesn't mean you won't spend a day making it...

Dave please double check my miller tool number!

M

I did spot that one. That is the correct tool for a m119 from my research. However since I live in Ireland that tool would be £50 by the time it lands here. Top tip- always check MB parts prices 'Live' with a dealer. The crank seal tool is actually £14 today Ordered from Germany now.

 

[gsxr]

Interesting. Does it plug into the bottom of the bell housing in my pic in post #11? Maybe that's what the two holes on the bottom are for. It sure would be easier than taking the starter out.

Jon, no, it does not attach at the bottom of the bellhousing. It plugs in behind the AC compressor. See diagram in link below. FSM says crossover pipe has to be removed, Michael says the exhaust can stay in place... YMMV, etc:
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/03-5000.pdf

I think you guys have officially talked me into changing the front crank seal. Just a shame that the £9.60 seal requires £359 of tools to replace. (£125 for Torque wrench with 400nm range, £10 27mm ¾ socket, £56 seal tool & £168 for lock tool)

The seal installation tool 119-589-01-14-00 is equivalent to Miller 9101 which may be available for much less (click here). Be careful to get a quality torque wrench, or look into renting / borrowing one.

 

[JC220]

The seal installation tool 119-589-01-14-00 is equivalent to Miller 9101 which may be available for much less (click here). Be careful to get a quality torque wrench, or look into renting / borrowing one.

Hi Dave- yes I have bought a quailty Teng Tools Torque wrench which has a range of 80-450nm.

Regarding the Oil seal install tool- currently the Genuine Mercedes tool is cheaper than aftermarket versions! £14+vat when I phoned a Mercedes main dealer today. (Online list prices appear incorrect/ too high)

 

[gsxr]

Regarding the Oil seal install tool- currently the Genuine Mercedes tool is cheaper than aftermarket versions! £14+vat when I phoned a Mercedes main dealer today. (Online list prices appear incorrect/ too high)

Cool! Hope that doesn't mean it's either NLA or nearing NLA... major price changes have a bad habit of accompanying one or the other.

 

[JC220]

Dave, do you have any pics of the blanking plate on the other side of the motor? (For the factory lock tool to slot in)

 

[gsxr]

Before re-inventing the wheel so to speak I figured I would check if there was a crank lock available for a reasonable cost. I found this one for £15 so I will order it & see. It does mention m119 as fitment in the listing:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301782180269

The first one, with the pins, is 112-589-03-40-00 for the M112/M113/M137.

The second one, with holes, is 601-589-02-40-00 for the 102, 103, 104, 111, most OM60x, and most OM611/612/613 engines.

Neither of those crank/flywheel locks work on the M119, which requires lock tool 116-589-01-40-00. This fits most M116/117/119 and most OM61x engines. Photo attached.

http://www.startekinfo.de/etools/content/tool.jsp?toolno=116 589 01 40 00
116-0140 - Google Shopping
http://www.baumtools.com/shop/flywheel-lock-1160140-p-464.html

 

[gsxr]

Dave, do you have any pics of the blanking plate on the other side of the motor? (For the factory lock tool to slot in)

I don't think I have any photos, sorry! I need to take some and add to my website.

 

[JC220]

The first one, with the pins, is 112-589-03-40-00 for the M112/M113/M137.

The second one, with holes, is 601-589-02-40-00 for the 102, 103, 104, 111, most OM60x, and most OM611/612/613 engines.

Neither will work on the M119, which requires 116-589-01-40-00. This fits most M116/117/119 and most OM61x engines. Photo attached.
http://www.startekinfo.de/etools/content/tool.jsp?toolno=116 589 01 40 00
https://www.google.com/shopping/product/9032371051331200490?q=116-0140
http://www.baumtools.com/shop/flywheel-lock-1160140-p-464.html

Yes I realised the Ebay listing I had referred to was an error after looking through all the other tools. It seems the m119 is a very hard one to find.

Thanks for the links Dave but they are all coming up $0- is there anyone selling the m119 lock tools aftermarket for a reasonable cost?

I don't think I have any photos, sorry! I need to take some and add to my website.

Ok Ill go out & take a closer look tonight to see if I can spot where it’s at among all the tightly packed 500E goodness