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The Disappearing Art of Products with Fine Engineering

Jlaa

OG ⏰ 500E
Staff member
Moderator's Note: This thread was copied and then cleaved off of this thread, when it started going off-topic onto the disappearing art of finely engineered products.



I thought Doug’s review both sucks and blows. This guy just sees the E500Es as old car technology. He does not appreciate anything about it. Starting with the Recaro seats “not supportive”. Obviously he likes to drive the crap out of his E63 and expected a similar experience in a 500E. He is into high tech and not looking back. Based on his grading he was struggling to give it a 50% grade.

I consider the review a “Kick in the Nuts” to the Owner. I would be pissed if I was getting ready to sell this car on BaT. In fact I would delay the auction at least 6 months.

LoL

I started to write that he is too young to appreciate the car but I don’t think that is correct....

I think the issue is that he lacks the background to appreciate fine mechanical engineering .... as opposed to appreciating an engaging user experience.
 
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Translation: “he is too young to appreciate the car.”

Anymore, if you’re under 45, you don’t appreciate “fine” anything. What you have in its place is an engaging user experience. Unless of course you happen to have had a father who appreciated fine things, in which case you know the difference. This last sentence I didn’t appreciate until my kids got old enough to show me they appreciate subtlety, which is of course the province of the fine.

My $.02... I might be a horrible translator though.

maw
What I have noticed is that younger folk (and even some older folk) tend to believe that most everything is disposable, and is just replaced rather than repaired. It's a by-product of -- but not entirely due to -- consumer culture. There was a time, which ended with the W123/W124/W126 era, that buying a Mercedes-Benz was a "once in a lifetime" experience. Few if any Benzes were leased, and if they were, it was to businesspeople. And you had that Mercedes-Benz, you took care of the car and owned it until you could drive it no longer. And it was engineered to be repaired and maintained. And then you passed it on your family when you kicked the bucket.

In recent decades, it's become all about "engaging user experience" (@maw1124's term, but a good one), and flashiness, and then moving on to the next thing. Nobody buys much anymore (least of all a car) to own and to hold onto for decades.

I was just thinking this morning -- I saw a statistic that 59% of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck. I'd bet if folks made two simple lifestyle choices -- a) got rid of their car debt (i.e. no lease or car payment of any kind) and b) got rid of their iSamsung-whatever phones (and perhaps used an old paid-off phone for 5 years) it would remove much of the pressure that is put on their paychecks.

I look around here on my desk as I type this. My eye falls upon the Bostitch stapler that is sitting in front of me. It was my grandfather's, vintage 1950s. I proudly use it, and think of him every time I do. I enjoy knowing that 99 years ago, my grandfather lived less than two miles from where I am sitting, as a US Naval Academy midshipman (class of 1925). He'd be so thrilled to know that the young midshipman we sponsor (class of 2023), used his stapler just last weekend for a Naval Academy class project.

Or my Hewlett-Packard 11c RPN calculator, which I purchased for myself in 1984. One of my first "big" purchases ($75) with saved paper-route money, which was for high school physics class. Still with the corner of a physics workbook page inside the battery compartment, put there with my hand-written name and grade (12th) just in case it was stolen.

I showed it to my son (who is now 20) one time some years ago. He just shook his head -- he couldn't understand why I'd have and use a 1980s calculator, when I could use the one on my phone. I grinned to myself, knowing he'd never in his lifetime grasp the importance (and efficiency) of Reverse Polish Notation. Ariana Grande and Selena Gomez were WAAAY more important than RPN.
 

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What I have noticed is that younger folk (and even some older folk) tend to believe that most everything is disposable, and is just replaced rather than repaired. It's a by-product of -- but not entirely due to -- consumer culture. ... In recent decades, it's become all about "engaging user experience" (@maw1124's term, but a good one), and flashiness, and then moving on to the next thing. Nobody buys much anymore (least of all a car) to own and to hold onto for decades.
In current techie terms... EaaS (Everything as a Service).

More folks just want to buy the ability to drive something, rather than own said vehicle. Definite shift in viewpoint from a few decades ago.

:wormhole:
 
Or my Hewlett-Packard 11c RPN calculator, which I purchased for myself in 1984. One of my first "big" purchases ($75) with saved paper-route money, which was for high school physics class. Still with the corner of a physics workbook page inside the battery compartment, put there with my hand-written name and grade (12th) just in case it was stolen.

I showed it to my son (who is now 20) one time some years ago. He just shook his head -- he couldn't understand why I'd have and use a 1980s calculator, when I could use the one on my phone. I grinned to myself, knowing he'd never in his lifetime grasp the importance (and efficiency) of Reverse Polish Notation. Ariana Grande and Selena Gomez were WAAAY more important than RPN.

This is the difference between early Early-Gen-X and Mid-Gen-X.
Here's my HP. This got me through undergrad engineering school.
It was ~$200 around 1992.
I also engraved my name in it to prevent it from getting stolen!!!
I totally agree -- RPN is awesome.


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I have a 48 sitting in my drawer, as well. I just never use it.

HP does have a NICE 15C app for the iPhone. I use it when I am on the go.
 

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Mine was the 19B that got me through business school around the same time JLAA was in engineering and for around the same price. I didn't protect it though. I'm pretty sure I sold it the minute I was done with my last Finance class. No more calculating the price of puts, calls or straddle options for me. Intuitively I realized "some computer will be doing that soon enough..." I didn't see that applying to cars, though, and I certainly didn't envision people actually preferring it. Exhaust through the cars' speakers?!?! Who knew?

maw
 
In current techie terms... EaaS (Everything as a Service).

More folks just want to buy the ability to drive something, rather than own said vehicle. Definite shift in viewpoint from a few decades ago.

Yep, EaaS. Music as a Service, Car as a Service, Clothes as a Service (like Stitch Fix), Groceries as a Service, Razors as a Service, Laundry as a Service, Housing as a Service, etc. Perhaps I am a curmudgeon for incessantly pointing this out --- I feel like EaaS has allowed a consumer society to amortize *Everything* over an infinite # of payments. Works well when interest rates are low ---- but what happens when interest rates go up? You have a whole generation (or two) that is not capable of saving $$$.

Anyways, regarding the finer things, along with my treasured HP48 (which, BTW, you can play Joust on!), here are the two other objects that got me through undergrad:


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Us Gen-X'ers need to be careful that we don't start sounding like old farts. I've been into classic cars since I was knee high to a grasshopper (yes, that's an old fart expression) and have become accustomed to the old fart jingles including but not limited to:
  1. When they used to be hand built
  2. The last REAAL Mercedes (sub Jaguar, MG, BMW or any make / model of your choosing)
  3. It's not made to last anymore
  4. Well that was before computers took over
  5. Something about a 100ft land yacht being more safe in an accident than something new with a safety cage and air bags
So a couple of things

A used car for sale in the 80's with over 100k miles on it would end up in the Jalopy section of the classifieds because 100k was around the due date for an engine rebuild. This changed with modern fuel injection that didn't dump fuel into the carbs and wear the engine out. Cars built back then had their own problems, we just don't remember them. Also, there's nothing wrong with certain things being disposable. I don't want to pay Y2K money for plasma screen TV, and like the idea of buying a 65" 4K LED smart TV for $600, that I can throw away in 10 years.

If you have a taste for the finer stuff that's going to last forever, it's available from boutique suppliers and you should be prepared to pay for it.

MB makes commodity cars, in that there are lots of choices available, and the segment is much more crowded today. Because of this, a modern MB is probably 1/2 the price of what it was back in the 80's, when a new 300CD cost about $32k.

If they tried to sell a 300CD today for the adjusted price of $90k, they would be out of business because nobody would buy it. I love the nostalgia of an old Mercedes. They have a sense of occasion. But for the daily commute, give me a new one any day.

Anyway, I'm off for a shave

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I have used my hp 12c and 10b since 93. 12c stayed in the box after the battery died and I have no clue where it is. 10b has been used daily since. I bought another for $6 that was nib as the current version is just not the same. HP might send me a special something if I can get 50 years of use, I am about to start year 27. :)
 
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The HP12C financial calculator is the longest running product in HP history. It has been in continuous production since 1981. They are still easily available new.

The “old school” HP calculators were designed and manufactured until the 1990s by HP’s former division in Corvallis, Oregon. I remember that as a university student at Oregon State University from 1985-1990, students could buy the “old-school” HP41CX and HP41CV calculators at the university bookstore for about one-half of their civilian retail price. HP did this as a courtesy to OSU. Back then, Corvallis’ population was only 35,000, and the only two things in town were the university and HP Corvallis Division.

I never thought then that I’d spend a good part of my career working for HP in California (Cupertino), Washington State (Vancouver) and Texas (Houston).
 
Anyone still using one of these? OS 7.1.0? I've run into "kids" who've asked me what it is. They are surprised when I tell them they are still used by government agencies and some large corporations.
 

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Even I, one of the last to accept any technology, remember when those were the next big thing. Did the stylus for writing appear before or after that?

drew
 
I am avoiding that other thread all together, didn't see the review as I have see previous reviews on the same channel, talking about storage spaces, cup holders and price being decisive factors.

Most of us here have a much higher academic, professional and experience level than all these UT Clowns, This forum should do car reviews.
 
Regarding disposability, it's hardly a modern phenomenon. Go to (among other places) the acropolis of Rhodes and you'll find, just lying on the ground, hundreds of thousands of ceramic shards. These are the remnants of 2000 year old plus disposable wine cups, purchased, drank, and discarded by those attending festivals and the Olympics.

Naturally, the Ancient Greeks did produce very fine hand-painted ceramics - that's the stuff that's in museums - but at the same time they also produced disposable cups.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's always been this way: for every keeper 1990s Mercedes-Benz E500E, there's a disposable 1990s Hyundai Excel or Geo Metro.
 
Yep, EaaS. Music as a Service, Car as a Service, Clothes as a Service (like Stitch Fix), Groceries as a Service, Razors as a Service, Laundry as a Service, Housing as a Service, etc. Perhaps I am a curmudgeon for incessantly pointing this out --- I feel like EaaS has allowed a consumer society to amortize *Everything* over an infinite # of payments. Works well when interest rates are low ---- but what happens when interest rates go up? You have a whole generation (or two) that is not capable of saving $$$.

Anyways, regarding the finer things, along with my treasured HP48 (which, BTW, you can play Joust on!), here are the two other objects that got me through undergrad:


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Given @maw1124 and @JAB12 's recent observations on the residual value of their leases being lower than the market value of their daily drivers, may I direct your attention to this: use GitHub - iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome: Bypass Paywalls web browser extension for Chrome and Firefox. to read:


I predict that the popularity of EaaS will decline as inflation gets higher and it gets less attractive to have "infinite leases"
 
Ray Dalio just said this morning "cash is not a safe investment right now" which got my attention. I like the quality of his thinking and wanted to know why he said that. "Because it will get taxed by inflation..." I had to stop and think but of course he's right. When your cash doesn't buy as much you have to think better and more closely about how you use it. And maybe disposable everything ain't it. Neither is conspicuous consumption. The millennials I know and do business with daily seem to intuitively understand this, which is why these behaviors seem so "generational" in hindsight. Because they are. Those who were adults in the 70s and 80s (when money grew on trees and even the idiots got rich) seem to be the ones who got carried away with "baubles" as @gerryvz calls them. So too those who got "easy rich" from the internet boom under Clinton and Greenspan. Since then the going hasn't been nearly as easy and we're starting to see that filter through to those who've had to try to figure shit out in a post 9/11 economy.

maw

PS... and now I look at the article and realize I could have saved myself some typing... :doh:
 
Ray Dalio just said this morning "cash is not a safe investment right now" which got my attention. I like the quality of his thinking and wanted to know why he said that. "Because it will get taxed by inflation..."
Indeed, I saw that as well, but I thought that was a needlessly oversimplistic headline. Sometimes losing a little bit to inflation is preferable to losing a LOT in massive "events.".

Inflationary environment ---- this is where it will be good to own businesses that throw off predictable streams of cash, quarter in, quarter out, on and on and on. Doubly so if the products these business sell have a low price elasticity of demand. (assuming we define it asScreen Shot 2021-11-30 at 8.26.07 AM.png )

Owning companies whose income streams are shifted far into the future will be a much riskier bet, as the PV of those future streams of cash will be eaten up by inflation.
 
It's a bit hard to pull the trigger on dumping cash into VTI or whatever ETF floats your boat given the jacked PE ratio of the market as a whole. That said it's likely the right call. The tricky part is for those of us who don't own homes and want to get a foothold in the market but are wary of buying when the market is this hot...anywhos, much digital ink could be spilled on this.

The Axis powers still seem to put out a high quality good. I got this WUSTHOF fish spatula a number of years ago as a gift and it's held up to daily use without issue. A bit spendy vs a $10 one, but its smooth handle brings me joy every time I use it.

 
Yes, it’s all overbid. And Williams Sonoma is about as inelastic a good as you’ll find for the higher income set, which is where most of the action is right now. That said, I was just in Vegas last week and did some shopping with my wife. What do you know… shops didn’t have inventory.

maw
 
It's a bit hard to pull the trigger on dumping cash into VTI or whatever ETF floats your boat given the jacked PE ratio of the market as a whole. That said it's likely the right call. The tricky part is for those of us who don't own homes and want to get a foothold in the market but are wary of buying when the market is this hot...anywhos, much digital ink could be spilled on this.
May I casually suggest that unless you are hyper-disciplined into dollar cost averaging into the indices (like the aforementioned VTI) on a frequent basis ……. then sometimes the indices are a bad place for dollars?

Conventional Wisdom says that the index is the best place over the long haul. But, if one isn’t hyper disciplined about DCA then index style diversification is indeed diworsification.
 
What do you know… shops didn’t have inventory.
My wife went last night to the local Kohl's store, to do some shopping as a donation for an 87-year-old woman who had a wish list provided to the Salvation Army for their Secret Santa program.

She reported that the shelves were quite bare in various places all over the store, and that they had moved a lot of shelves and furniture around so that things didn't appear quite as sparse as they actually were. She was able to get everything (which was a simple list) and a lot more on the woman's wish list, though.
 
The Axis powers still seem to put out a high quality good. I got this WUSTHOF fish spatula a number of years ago as a gift and it's held up to daily use without issue. A bit spendy vs a $10 one, but its smooth handle brings me joy every time I use it.

Do you use this on non-stick pans (as well as regular pans)? I've always wanted one of these to flip fish....... but I use non-stick (1st on stove, then in oven) pans....
 
Getting us back on track to fine products, behold this gorgeous geometry set passed down to me by my Dad from his 70s Art School days (hash not included :) ). I somehow only found it after I graduated from engineering school and suffered through plenty of crappy plastic and cheap metal compasses that would deflect the second you applied more than 0.0001 Nm to them, losing your radius/measurement. This one is made, of course, in Germany, and looks better than new. It's a joy to use, to the point where I'm finding excuses to give it some exercise (making cardboard mockups of new speakers, for one). Even the case has durable snaps, living hinges, and a lovely felt interior. Only the finest of corinthian leather, Ricardo

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I have one of the fine German made compasses handed down from my father as well. I don't do any drafting anymore however it makes a great tool for transferring measurements of all kinds. Much better than measuring with a scale or tape.

A sign of our times; I see sets like yours from time to time in antique markets usually priced at $50 or $60.00
 
I have one of the fine German made compasses handed down from my father as well. I don't do any drafting anymore...
Why am I not surprised? I haven't drafted anything since I switched my major in college from Architecture... never missed it until I looked at this set! Talk about nostalgia...

maw
 

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