M104 hfm into a 190e 2.6

[jjdogg5928]

So I’ve been considering putting a 3.2 M104 into my 190e 2.6.
I know how to do the majority of this swap but I need help with the electrical side of things.
If someone can just tell me step by step on how you would do this it would be much appreciated

 

[gerryvz]

Sounds like a job for @JC220 !! Where's that HOW-TO, JC?!?

 

[JC220]

So I’ve been considering putting a 3.2 M104 into my 190e 2.6.
I know how to do the majority of this swap but I need help with the electrical side of things.
If someone can just tell me step by step on how you would do this it would be much appreciated

So the w201 you have has a m103 engine yes?

For a m104 transplant the way I would do it there is find or even better - buy a complete w124 m104 donor that is running well and check / clear any fault codes. Note the engine harness on m104s can go bad so do also make sure there is an updated / good harness on there or source one.

Note the donor 124 should be non ASR (I presume your w201 does not have ASR?) and just a plain key no IR fob.

Then take the whole motor / trans / diff ideally and fit into your w201. The wiring end of this sounds challenging but really it is not IF you have a complete donor car and work logically taking plenty of photos and notes.

Most w124s with m104 will also have an EGAS module in the passenger compartment footwell. Remove all of the HFM ECU and wiring including every relay or component connected to same going right back into the fuse box where you will find big black plugs.

Installation is the reverse of removal with the caveat that you may need to route cables slightly differently in your w201 and may have to extend or shorten some cables. Then you may be lucky enough to find the black plug will work in your fuse box to the m104 harness. All of the m104 ECU harness of course requires removal and whilst doing this try to check circuit diagrams and wiring colours and splice the connections onto the new harness bit by bit.

The beauty of having a running donor and having it fault free to begin with gives confidence to trace any issues that may have arisin as a result of the swap (and not chasing untreated original/ old running problems the donor vehicle may have had)

Then you are into checking and potential upgrading of cooling system, brakes, exhaust etc etc.

It is certainly not a weekend task but is fully doable if you are careful and methodical!

I cant produce anything like a "How To" on this subject! Too many variables to take into account. But I am happy to assist if you embark on this and post a new thread here on 500E board off topics.

 

[JC220]

As an example about 5 years ago (time sure does fly!) I bought a rusty donor C36 AMG.

We have a 1987 w124 200 manual saloon from new and it has sentimental value. (The worst kind). So I nut and bolt restored the underside with brand new suspension and brakes (mostly 500E spec), converted to automatic transmission, added ABS, power windows and upgraded the cooling system etc.

I wanted basically a C36 in a w124 shell. So I took all wiring from the w202 including the AMG air box and AMG engine ECU and swapped the whole lot over. Coolant and screenwash tanks - the lot. All brackets cut from the donor shell then I re sprayed the engine compartment before finally setting the engine in.

(No exhaust yet)

Note that I recommend you find a w124 donor and keep as many original w201 parts that work in the swap. The C36 swap like I did was the long way around but I dont like doing things easy so that suited me just fine

 

[jjdogg5928]

Wow thank you JC220 this really helps a lot. I’m gonna get started on finding a good donor car and I’ll update you on my progress.
Also yes my W201 has an M103 with no ASR

 

[ccrelan]

changing to stand alone fuel injection greatly simplifies the swap

 

[jjdogg5928]

changing to stand alone fuel injection greatly simplifies the swap

As in changing to MegaSquirt or something ?
Yeah that would help make things easier but my plan is to keep the original ecu and wiring that will be taken out of the donor car. If this proves to difficult which it shouldn’t (hopefully)
then I’ll definitely look into using MS

 

[gerryvz]

You may STRONGLY want to consider a KE-Jetronic early M104 (104.960) transplant rather than an HFM engine. Much easier job and same power.

 

[JC220]

You may STRONGLY want to consider a KE-Jetronic early M104 (104.960) transplant rather than an HFM engine. Much easier job and same power.

Not sure that the ECUs are really interchangeable.... might require a wiring swap back to fuse box like the HFM harness.

However the biggest downside of the m104.980 is the uber expensive and rare EZLs that appear to have a high failure rate..... I own a m104.980 car too and have a rebuilt EZL in the boot for long trips. That EZL is well known for dying.

A HFM m104 with coil packs etc is far more reliable & is the only swap worthwhile IMHO.

 

[jjdogg5928]

You may STRONGLY want to consider a KE-Jetronic early M104 (104.960) transplant rather than an HFM engine. Much easier job and same power.

Yeah this is easier but the 3.2 is much better in terms of performance and yes the wiring may be more complex but if I can find a good donor car then it shouldn’t be difficult to transplant it into the 190e. When I first thinking of an engine swap for the car I originally did want to put the 3.0 M104 into the car but upon doing more research I would much rather put in a 3.2

 

[gerryvz]

As far as I know, the 3-liter M104 and the 3.2 HFM M104 are essentially the same horsepower rating. I don't think you'd be able to tell any difference -- certainly performance (acceleration, top speed) would not be "much better" than the KE-Jet M104.

I know for a fact (based on people I know who have done it on the W126 chassis) that it is much easier to replace a KE-Jet M117 engine with an early KE-Jet M119, rather than an LH-based M119.

"shouldn't be that difficult to transplant" ...... You are REALLY underestimating the amount of work and effort required to put an M104 (of any type) into a W201 chassis. It's not a particularly easy nor quick swap. It is going to take planning, acquiring of proper parts, and careful execution. There are a lot of factors to consider, not just the wiring.

But, I know these things take time. We have a member who is swapping an M119 into a pedestrian W124 coupe, to make a 500E coupe. I've asked as to how his project is coming along. Crickets.

 

[jjdogg5928]

Yeah that is true you make good points but I’m up for the challenge. It will take planning and time but it will be worth it

 

[captruff]

Yeah that is true you make good points but I’m up for the challenge. It will take planning and time but it will be worth it

Your just one step away from the 3.6L M104

Jeff

 

[jjdogg5928]

Your just one step away from the 3.6L M104

Jeff

I’ve heard about people doing that swap but isn’t that even more complex than the 3.2 since you have to get that engine out of a w210 ?

 

[captruff]

I’ve heard about people doing that swap but isn’t that even more complex than the 3.2 since you have to get that engine out of a w210 ?

I know the 3.6L M104 swap has been done several times. Here in the USA the donor car is the W202 C36. I will be swapping in a M104 3.6 into my 1995 wagon later this year, but that is a straightforward M104 to M104 swap, only the tandem PS/SLS pump and the mechanical smog pump needs to be swapped.

As for the 3.6 M104 into a W201, well I will be helping a friend accomplish this in the next month or two. I know Steve Geyer did this swap to his W201 Sportline a few years ago so I will be in contact with him when we get stuck.

Jeff

 

[JC220]

I’ve heard about people doing that swap but isn’t that even more complex than the 3.2 since you have to get that engine out of a w210 ?

Mine is a 3.6 swap, yes that used a W202 harness in my case since I had a whole C36 donor parked beside it and decided to go that route myself.

BUT you could use the m104 E320 w124 harness and have the ECU chipped to match C36 tune.

@ccrelan Has done this before?

 

[captruff]

Mine is a 3.6 swap, yes that used a W202 harness in my case since I had a whole C36 donor parked beside it and decided to go that route myself.

BUT you could use the m104 E320 w124 harness and have the ECU chipped to match C36 tune.

@ccrelan Has done this before?

For my project the S124 I will be doing exactly what you described. Using the resident S124 harness with a factory 3.2 ECU which was sent out Speedtuning and flashed for a 3.6 After my project is up and running I further plan to have a friend tune the set up utilizing a piggyback Microsquirt system. Apparently he can fiddle with air fuel, spark advance, redline,.... I don't understand the specifics, but seems interesting to me.

Jeff

 

[JC220]

This is an old thread of mine on this 3.6 swap:

E36 AMG project

www.benzworld.org

It's long but will list out the typical issues with such a swap! (I got some critique too for how I did this swap) Aka wanting to use the C36 HWA ECU.

 

[jjdogg5928]

Yeah a 3.6 would be a mega job.
I still haven’t found a good donor car yet but as soon as I have it I will update but in the meantime is there anything else I should be aware of before attempting this.
e.g wether the 5 speed manual will work and if I have to alter the engine bay at all ?

 

[ccrelan]

BUT you could use the m104 E320 w124 harness and have the ECU chipped to match C36 tune.

@ccrelan[/USER] Has done this before?


Yes, essentially you treat the 3.6 as a 3.2 engine- reuse all w124 pieces and transfer over all front accessories and brackets. Chip the stock 3.2 ecu and you are good.

 

[jjdogg5928]

Okay so I couldn’t find any good W124 e320
But I did find something else , a 1995 c36 amg
which obviously has the 3.6 M104 and I am currently debating wether I should attempt this so any thoughts from you guys ?

 

[JC220]

Okay so I couldn’t find any good W124 e320
But I did find something else , a 1995 c36 amg
which obviously has the 3.6 M104 and I am currently debating wether I should attempt this so any thoughts from you guys ?

That is an awesome engine!! How much can you snag it for?

 

[jjdogg5928]

it’s listed at £4,750 currently for the whole car which is in excellent condition imo

 

[JC220]

it’s listed at £4,750 currently for the whole car which is in excellent condition imo

That's probably a shame to kill a C36 for the engine though if the car itself is decent enough

 

[jjdogg5928]

That's probably a shame to kill a C36 for the engine though if the car itself is decent enough

That is true I’m not gonna lie. I will think about this for a bit and then make a decision on what to do

 

[JC220]

That is true I’m not gonna lie. I will think about this for a bit and then make a decision on what to do

I realise now you are from the UK! I am from NI. There should be plenty of E320 donors about.... I can buy 320 m104 engines and transmissions here cheap. Like £150. Hence I have 2x spare and want more! (I have 5no m104 cars too)

I'll keep a lookout here for a 320 engine and box at least. You could pallet it over to england for £100 or so.

 

[jjdogg5928]

I realise now you are from the UK! I am from NI. There should be plenty of E320 donors about.... I can buy 320 m104 engines and transmissions here cheap. Like £150. Hence I have 2x spare and want more! (I have 5no m104 cars too)

I'll keep a lookout here for a 320 engine and box at least. You could pallet it over to england for £100 or so.

Yeah I’m here in London!
I couldn’t find any e320 donors but I’ve told my dad about the c36 and he’s considering the swap.

I’ve also read a bit of your thread on the 3.6 into the W124 and it was really good and I believe it will help a lot

 

[gerryvz]

Have you spoken with Chris at Mercman, out in Cornwall, to see what he has on hand? I realize it's a bit out in the boonies relative to London, but he may have something of interest.

https://www.mercman.net

 

[Stevester 500E]

S70/2 on this forum has done this swap.

I would go the m104 route, that way no cap and rotor, no fuel distributor.
But agreed, easier to do am m104 from 1992 300ce.

My goal is to hire S70/2 to do the m104 him swap. Then down the road, drop in an m104 3.6. But I think an m104 3.2 has plenty of get up and go .

So I’ve been considering putting a 3.2 M104 into my 190e 2.6.
I know how to do the majority of this swap but I need help with the electrical side of things.
If someone can just tell me step by step on how you would do this it would be much appreciated

 

[gerryvz]

Definitely a most @Stevesterian swap. Perhaps jjdogg and Steve-dogg are brothas from anotha motha.....

 

[jjdogg5928]

Okay so it looks like I will be going down the route of swapping the 3.6 into my 190e but I have one problem, if the c36 has ASR would this affect the swap in any way and what would I have to do to remove it or do I have to find a c36 without asr ?

 

[captruff]

Okay so it looks like I will be going down the route of swapping the 3.6 into my 190e but I have one problem, if the c36 has ASR would this affect the swap in any way and what would I have to do to remove it or do I have to find a c36 without asr ?

For my W124 swap since my car does not have ASR I decided to swap the ETA without ASR so it will play nicely with the computer in place.

Jeff

 

[jjdogg5928]

For my W124 swap since my car does not have ASR I decided to swap the ETA without ASR so it will play nicely with the computer in place.

Jeff

Oh okay so let’s say in my case if the c36 did have asr would I just remove everything and leave the asr in the c36 ?

 

[captruff]

Oh okay so let’s say in my case if the c36 did have asr would I just remove everything and leave the asr in the c36 ?

I believe ASR was standard on all NAM C36s. That said, I would opt for removing the ETA from a Non ASR car assuming the target car does not support ASR.

Jeff

 

[JC220]

My C36 didnt have ASR. I guess you could fit a ASR Diff and wiring if you really wanted to - but if possible change ETA like Jeff suggests.

 

[jjdogg5928]

Thanks guys I’m gonna ask the seller wether the car has asr and if it does imma have to find another donor unless it’s removable

 

[JC220]

Oh okay so let’s say in my case if the c36 did have asr would I just remove everything and leave the asr in the c36 ?

For clarity - are you thinking of using the full C36 ECU and chassis wiring in yor swap?

Or will you buy the car for the engine and source a engine loom from a W124 320 Donor and chip it's ECU?

 

[jjdogg5928]

For clarity - are you thinking of using the full C36 ECU and chassis wiring in yor swap?

Or will you buy the car for the engine and source a engine loom from a W124 320 Donor and chip it's ECU?

I was planning on just using the full c36 ecu
This shouldn’t be an issue but I’m gonna rebuild the harness as they’re really crappy from what I’ve heard

 

[JC220]

FWIW my C36 turned up in Ireland for £1000. Sat in a guys garage for years then his wife threw a wobbler and made him get rid

I went down with a trailer, heard it run and paid the man. Took it home, it was a rusty dog underneath. Bad, very bad. I only wanted the running gear anyway so this made me feel better about cutting it up.

I sold on the AMG Wheels , Arch Spats, Steering wheel, interior, exhaust & body kit etc for about £1500 / £1800. Which meant I got my engine, trans, ECU and wiring for free essentially, even made a profit on it.



I have hardly any photos of the C36 at all unfortunately. This reminds me of how much work I put into that E36. Got a boat and drove to London just for a Sportline leather interior of the same dark blue colour as my w124 had from new. (It was cloth before) It is about as close to a new w124 as you can get underneath. It has at least a decade of parts collecting went into finding all the bits I wanted for that car. It will be very nice when done..... maybe next year.

 

[JC220]

I was planning on just using the full c36 ecu
This shouldn’t be an issue but I’m gonna rebuild the harness as they’re really crappy from what I’ve heard

This is a seperate issue. The "Eco Junk" soy bean wiring insulation degrades on the actual engine harness itself due to increased heat + exposure on the engine. That is - the portion that goes from engine and plugs into the ECU.

In order for you to use the C36 ECU in your 190 you pretty much need to rebuild the upper engine harness (NLA for AMGs) + move alot of chassis wiring over and make it all work.



It can be done - but it takes time and the abilty to understand automotive electrical circuits. Lots of research, marking up and being methodical. Don't underestimate this.

A W124 m104 donor for the chassis wiring will be easier for you and SHOULD be more readily relatable to the 190 chassis. The m104 w124 upper engine harnesses are available good used as updated post 1998 build and don't have bad wiring. Buy one - fit forget on the engine harness side of things. I have used a USA sourced M104 upper harness on my coupe and lengthened the MAF wire FWIW. Lots more updated m104 harnesses available in USA.

What I liked about my method was:

1. After tonnes of work it would be "plug and play" turn key and you've got a C36 running in a W124 shell.
2. For me it was cheaper to use the C36 donor and not buy standalone ECUs and have someone tune it all the time wondering how it would compare to the original AMG tune if at all.
3. I also did not have access to a w124 m104 donor at the time and forged on regardless.

 

[jjdogg5928]

Thanks JC220 , this helps clarify a lot of things, I’m willing to take the time to research everything before making a start on this project. I read through your old thread and when I saw just how much work was put into the wiring itself I was not only impressed but also fully understood how involved this swap would be.
My dad will also be a massive help as he has done many engine swaps on these mercs and is sort of a specialist when it comes them so thankfully I’m not doing this alone and having help on this thread is also massive so for the next few weeks I will just be doing research and getting a plan ready for the swap and I’ll make sure to update this thread as much as possible

 

[jjdogg5928]

Quick little update :

Ive decided to take a different approach to this so want I’m going to do is put in a 3.0-24v m104 in first and then later down the line I’ll put in the 3.6.
The reason for this is because we found a breaking SL with the 3.0 in and decided to just put that in for now until we find a nice 3.6 donor car.
so far I know that the 3.0 is much easier than the 3.6 due to the fact that it has the same fuel system as the M103 I have in there right now so it’s a bit more straightforward.
but I also want to know what you guys think and wether this will be worthwhile

 

[gsxr]

As long as you don't mind that the powerband starts around 4000rpm...

 

[jjdogg5928]

As long as you don't mind that the powerband starts around 4000rpm...

Yeah the 3.0 gets into it’s powerband far later than a 3.2 or 3.6 but it shouldn’t be too bad I don’t think

 

[gerryvz]

Pretty much the exact thing I recommended that you do. It will still require planning, but won't be as much work in the end as swapping in an HFM-powered engine. You'll find the result just fine.

Did you ring up Chris at MercMan -- ?

 

[JC220]

Quick little update :

Ive decided to take a different approach to this so want I’m going to do is put in a 3.0-24v m104 in first and then later down the line I’ll put in the 3.6.
The reason for this is because we found a breaking SL with the 3.0 in and decided to just put that in for now until we find a nice 3.6 donor car.
so far I know that the 3.0 is much easier than the 3.6 due to the fact that it has the same fuel system as the M103 I have in there right now so it’s a bit more straightforward.
but I also want to know what you guys think and wether this will be worthwhile

So keep a look out for a w124 m104 wiring donor though! Remove and keep the loom for future HFM swap.

W124s are getting thinner and thinner for breaking in the UK so best keep an eye out! I take the harness from any suitable car here and hoard.

 

[jjdogg5928]

Pretty much the exact thing I recommended that you do. It will still require planning, but won't be as much work in the end as swapping in an HFM-powered engine. You'll find the result just fine.

Did you ring up Chris at MercMan -- ?

Yeah after you recommend it to me my dad also said that this is an option and he knows Chris from Mercman very well so he’s gonna give him a call maybe tomorrow I believe

 

[jjdogg5928]

So keep a look out for a w124 m104 wiring donor though! Remove and keep the loom for future HFM swap.

W124s are getting thinner and thinner for breaking in the UK so best keep an eye out! I take the harness from any suitable car here and hoard.

I’ll be on the look out JC

 

[jjdogg5928]

Okay so I was reading through S70/2’s thread when he swapped a 3.2 into his 190e and I saw that he added magnets to his flywheel.
Can someone explain to me why he had to and is this done so the 5 speed manual can work on the M104 ?

 

[ccrelan]

It needs to be done on a hfm injection engine so the car can idle properly. Not needed on a cis car.