FYI Negative Influence of 500Eboard on E500E Sales — ?

[magicbigdaddy]

Moderator's note: This thread was cleaved off of this "for sale" thread because it didn't have anything specifically to do with the car being offered for sale.


Just a FYI, I have a friend in the Seattle area that reached out to me to help him list his E500 on BaT as he knows I have listed and sold a few nice Benz's on that medium. As with many enthusiasts he visits this forum for tips and valuable information. He called yesterday and decided to hold off on the listing as he feared the influence of this forum and a possible "punch list" that could influence the sale of his car. His car is a great example and has been maintained over the years by one of Seattle's best indies but he's just a guy that enjoys cars but has other priorities at this time and was ready to move on. He has decided to sell his 911 instead as that market continues to be strong for great examples and possibly less chance of his sale being altered. Mike

 

[gerryvz]

The supposed “influence” of this (or any) forum on a sale is WAY overblown. Flattering — but overblown. PLENTY of cars have sold for great money on BaT that have long histories and/or extensive discussion on this forum.

Look at the current (Prosper, TX) car that is for sale on BaT. Despite a long list of observations here, and a history dating back to 2014, it’s auction price started out strong and is spiraling upward rapidly to quite a good price (as good as can be expected in this "coronavirus" market).

One question -- is there anything mentioned in the "punch list" for this Prosper, TX car that is outright inaccurate or way out of line, in terms of mechanical items or condition?

Sounds like your friend doesn’t have strong confidence that his car will show well, or will be picked apart here? If it's as nice of an example as you say above, then it will stand here firmly on its own two legs. And -- timing is everything. Why sell in a down E500E market, let alone probably the worst economic conditions we've had in the past 10-12 years? Why didn't he sell 18-24 months ago, when the E500E market was a seller's market? As an advisor to your friend, and Mercedes professional, this is the stuff you should be "advising" him on -- not agreeing with him about the supposed influence of a forum on his sale. Help him find a solution to his problem, even if it means recommending someone more qualified than yourself to help him.

If your friend wants to get top dollar for his car, he should consign it to the likes of Dean Laumbach, Bruce Mendel, or @jhodg5ck, or someone of that caliber, who specialize in preparing, properly marketing, and getting top dollar for used Benzes. (Just tell him to steer clear of Tyler Hoover of "Hoovie's Garage").

I think you’ll find that a lot of the outright negativity here is directed toward unscrupulous sellers (flipper-dealers), sellers who make obvious misrepresentations in their descriptions, and mechanics who hack repairs together, rather than the cars themselves.

There is NOTHING -- ZERO -- wrong with knowledgable folks here making observations about a car that comes up for sale. It's the case about 95% of the time that sellers certainly aren't going to bring up the negatives of their cars in a proactive way -- they rightfully want to accentuate the positives to pump up the value in potential buyers' eyes. As they should. I don't think anyone's intention here is to depress the market, submarine any person's sale, or try to keep these cars affordable. I think folks' intention here is to provide a knowledge and experience-based counterpoint to some of the claims (or lack thereof) that are being made in some of these cars being advertised out there. Particularly by dishonest and unscrupulous "dealers" who buff and shine the cars, steam clean the engine, copy and paste a bunch of Wikipedia text about the cars' history to create a narrative, and then double or triple the price that they got the car for a month or two earlier at auction.

Transparency and honesty is the way to go, and this forum promotes that, and FACTS about these cars.

Look, I’ve been personally vilified and mocked about my deferred maintenance laws for cars below and above 100K miles. Sellers sending me private messages, threatening lawsuits via email and PM for libel, getting angry here, threatening me for posting their “copyrighted” photos and data cards here, you name it. Y'all's friend McClare, over on Benzworld 126 forum, sending me death threats a few years back for mocking his hack mechanic work. You name it. I don't talk about a lot of the flak that I've taken over the past 10 years from angry people (except Banzworld).

But have my "laws" proven to be true? You bet they have. As I tear down the top end of my own 144K mile E500, I'm finding out very much so, that my own laws apply to my own car probably more than anyone else's !!!

The best thing your friend can do is to be honest and accurate in his description, provide documentation and paperwork (or at least a summary of major work done), be engaged here and on BaT to answer questions, have a positive attitude, and provide hundreds of good photographs of the car. Look at the seller on the Prosper, TX sale -- he's thanking every bidder, answering questions as they're asked, and generally being engaged and proactive about things (i.e. providing requested driving videos, etc.). You can tell he's a good guy !!

Remember too, that the car history and discussion on this forum has saved many dozens of people from making decisions they would have regretted about mis-represented cars, or cars with dubious histories. This is the reason I started my personal database on these cars back in mid-2003.

 

[TerryA]

With all of the exposure on the internet no matter where you advertise your car/truck/suv for sale if it is a popular collector type it's going to show up on some forum and get comments on it.

What would be the use of beating down E500Es? Why would any owner of an E500E want to do that? I think only the trolls do that and they are out there. If anything the smart approach by any Owner or our E500Es is to enhance or reinforce these cars whenever possible and move them up-market for the benefit of other future sellers maybe even themselves. Remember what goes around comes around. On this board I believe that most that comment do so positively. Sure there are unscrupulous sellers/flippers trying to make a quick buck in the car market as in all markets. These cars should be picked on and exposed if it's deserved.

When an Qwner puts a car up for sale privately or at Auction they should prepared to answer questions honestly about their car. Most Owners of cars (any car not just E500Es) know the issues with them. They have a choice of fixing them or selling "AS IS". When an Owner puts a car up for sale on BaT or any other venue that allows comments then he should be prepared for whats to come from the "Peanut Gallery".

Unfortunately with the low mileage up-scale collector cars that have sold in the recent past for $50K to $100K it has influenced a lot of Owners into thinking that their own little "Creampuff" is worth a lot more than it really is. In regards to Gerry's deferred costs just think about it. Everybody on this forum has experienced the costs of repairs/refurbishment first hand. It should be no surprise that you could easily spend $5 to 10K on what you thought was a nearly perfect car when you purchased it.

If you plan on selling your car have documented proof of all repairs or refurbishment done and at what mileage/time frame done. Take lots of photos and try to pen out a good description and let it rip. No one has to accept any offer that's to low. Eventually the selling price will arrive that satisfies the seller.

IMOP, to attempt to sell a car in this current covid-19 market is just plain stupid.

If you put it on BaT or e-Bay be prepared for the onslaught of comments.

Just my $.02

 

[alabbasi]

If anything, this forum has had a very positive influence on the value of these cars.

 

[maw1124]

Moderator's note: This thread was cleaved off of this "for sale" thread because it didn't have anything specifically to do with the car being offered for sale.


Just a FYI, I have a friend in the Seattle area that reached out to me to help him list his E500 on BaT as he knows I have listed and sold a few nice Benz's on that medium. As with many enthusiasts he visits this forum for tips and valuable information. He called yesterday and decided to hold off on the listing as he feared the influence of this forum and a possible "punch list" that could influence the sale of his car. His car is a great example and has been maintained over the years by one of Seattle's best indies but he's just a guy that enjoys cars but has other priorities at this time and was ready to move on. He has decided to sell his 911 instead as that market continues to be strong for great examples and possibly less chance of his sale being altered. Mike

Thanks, Mike, for the heads up. Knowledgeable buyers always bring down sales prices in hot markets. I don’t see the newsflash there. I guess people don’t seem to know that 911 engines often grenade. Who knows? All he needs to do is highlight the punch list himself, and if it’s a prime example (minus that list), then his car will show just fine. IMO the next few years won’t be any better. If that list makes his car not prime, well that’s on him, is it not? Or does he think somehow that’s on us, like “if buyers didn’t know better I’d get top dollar” sort of thinking?

maw

 

[gerryvz]

The only thing I can think of, is if someone is afraid to list their car on BaT (or here) and is afraid that comments/observations/critiques made here may negatively affect the value of it .... either they have something significant to hide / don't want to disclose on the vehicle, or they are overly sensitive about seeing/receiving honest feedback.

One of the worst cases I've seen of pretty much doing every single thing wrong in the book, is the infamous red A124 cabrio and its seller, "Rick Ball." There's not much more or worse that seller could have done to pretty much ruin that car's marketability for many years to come:

• puffing it up with an unprovable narrative
• advertising it on literally every Internet venue possible or imaginable (and some unimaginable)
• outright lying about MB's involvement in its' "restoration"
• not admitting that it is a flood car
• trying to wash its title
• trying to sell it for 3-4x its real market value
• being a slippery snake of a seller

A more recent example is the guy who a couple of weeks ago advertised his T-boned car on Facebook, in this ad. Dude represented the car as easily fixable, when in reality it's an obvious total loss. The guy is a total snake. After lots of initial bragadoccio, when asked some simple questions he suddenly clammed up, and quickly deleted his Facebook ad. Been silent ever since.

Does he deserve to be vilified for being dishonest and misrepresenting the car? He sure does.

He is now infamous for starting the "#DrivesGreat" hashtag on this forum. One for the ages.

 

[gerryvz]

If that list makes his car not prime, well that’s on him, is it not? Or does he think somehow that’s on us, like “if buyers didn’t know better I’d get top dollar” sort of thinking?

@The Emperor did note that he 'compelled' the seller of the Texas car to fix some of the more egregious problems.

 

[maw1124]

That TX car sort of is what it is, and is trading for what it should be trading for, as far as I can see. I mean, it’s got 190k on it, for Goodness’ sake, and we’ve been in a zero inflation environment for years. I pointed out years ago there would be a “great shakeout” between sub 100k mile cars and “everything else”. This one falls squarely in the “everything else” category to me. Am I missing something? Did someone think the monoblocks would boost the value of this car several times the value of the wheels?

maw

 

[gerryvz]

@maw1124 — As I said earlier in the thread, the real, hidden value in this car is in the proper Euro headlights (sourced from the Classic Center), the cocomats, and the pristine, relatively recently replaced factory "500E" trunk badge. Those three items alone, contribute around $2,500+ to the value of this car.

Monoblocks ... meh, that's a mere $500 folded into the final price, or $1,200 sold separately.

 

[msq]

I think @magicbigdaddy 's question/friends concern is valid one, and I don't think it's a black and white yes or no. It can hurt some cars and help others. Two simple hypothetical examples:

• a well maintained E500E whose owner has kept up on the maintenance and has a car that is in good condition -and even perhaps documented some of it here so you have a whole history of the car. Potential buyers can check the car out here and get an understanding from forum members that say 130K miles on an E500E is nothing and therefore potential buyer may be more inclined to look at the car more favorably than he/she otherwise would have been. In the case, this forum could help.

• a car that is not known to this forum (or very little known about it), that MAY have a list of needs and that list of needs may not be any different than say a 25 year old Porsche (in terms of total $$ - not exact same fixes obviously) will likely have every one of those "potential" needs called out here. To an uninitiated potential buyer, that can scare the daylights out of them, mostly because the critiques/questions are not done in context of say another high end car of the same era (Porsche, Ferrari, BMW....yea, I know these are not all in the same class for many reasons).

I have said this before - I think this forum is the best car forum I have belonged to in terms of expertise on any brand/model (I guess the Rennlist guys could argue, but that forum spans the spectrum and I think the depth of expertise here is unsurpassed). When I was looking/buying, some of the people on this forum helped me greatly track down the right car and do the right homework on it. It was invaluable.

However, I can also absolutely see a potential buyer seeing an E500E on BAT - who may not be an expert on the car - then logging on here and seeing a list of potential typical needs of a 25 year old E500E called out here and having no context (vis a vis other cars of the same era) the potential buyer could easily say "holy cow, I am staying away from that car", yet at the same time he could look at a 25 year old air cooled Porsche on BAT that may have at least $10K of needs and all he will see on BAT is everyone saying how the '90's air-cooled Porsche is phenomenal, bullet proof, best Porsche every made etc. Unless that same Porsche was being dissected on Rennlist, the potential buyer would have no context of the Porsche vs. E500E (forget that these are two completely different cars).

I think the flippers who buy an E500E, put some lipstick on it and have no knowledge of the car and don't want to know the needs and simply mark it up $10K to $15K- should be called out here. It's a great service to the buyer.

The flip side is that when critiquing/pointing out potential needs an E500E from a "regular owner" who is selling his car - those needs should be pointed out in the context (and even compared) of any 25 year old car (pick BMW & Porsche for example) and the key positives should be pointed out at the same time (bullet proof engine capable of 300k miles easily; bank vault build quality etc.).

p.s. the A124 mentioned above was the most fun game of "whack a mole" I have seen in years - each time that seller got shot down for his lies/misrepresentation, he would wait a while and the car would pop up somewhere else with the same lies. It was humorous, the guy thought he could escape the truth and his constant reaction to being caught in the multitude of lies was priceless. It was like Lucy pulling the football out underneath from Charlie Brown each time.

 

[gerryvz]

I would venture to say that 80% of the buyers of E500E models:

1) Know exactly what this model is, its history and provenance, and what makes it special;
2) Have done at least some homework, and generally know what they are getting into with these cars;
3) Have fairly likely (in the course of their research) found this forum and have used it for additional research/study, and perhaps research on cars that are actually for sale
4) Figure out pretty quickly that there is a high level of expertise, and little fluff and BS (at least about the cars), on this site.

By the way ... you are familiar with GVZ's laws of deferred maintenance for the .036 models. Well, for Porsche 911s, DOUBLE those figures for the equivalent mileage.

 

[195910]

I agree with our members here and both @gerryvz @TerryA detailed the matter. I personally did not comment on this particular car but have commented on many cars before (and will continue to do so).

These are 25-30 years old cars, they are in no way new nor just like new no matter how low the mileage is and how it was stored, maintained or restored. All these cars have issues whither minor or major, and the amount/severity of which sets the class and value.

Now just a couple of point to add:

- Comments by knowledgeable members should not be taken as a public stoning! its simply pointing out the issues which the owner might already know about. Its independent feedback (unless the flipper is trying to hide these issues).

- Do these comments really matter? We have made comments and pointed out to many issues on cars from all over the world, how many sales fell apart? Probably ZERO!

Knowledge based opinions don't matter anymore. We just had a case last month where a flipper in kuwait (yes plenty of them over there) sold a 1993 E500 to a guy overseas on the basis that it has 90k Km, REAL Mileage is around 400k KM. It been clocked twice and the last mileage before the current 90k was 320k.
You can be the most knowledgeable in your region/country with records on most cars, yet no one would bother to ask you anything!!

 

[alabbasi]

That TX car sort of is what it is, and is trading for what it should be trading for, as far as I can see. I mean, it’s got 190k on it, for Goodness’ sake

Yep, these cars did not use unique engines, or unique chassis (yes, they had bigger sway bars and flared fenders etc but not enough). They were not particularly low volume either, and they're not that fast anymore. So what makes a car with ~ 200k miles worth so much? The Porsche connection? They were helping VW built SEATs at the same time.

For me, it's two reasons:

1) As I've maintained and as evident in several of my other posts, my belief is that it's down to this forum, and how well people here represent the cars
2) Amateur investors bought a bunch of them up, thinking that they can make a tax free profit

So is the OP's buddy is thinking that if the car does not sell for what he thinks it's worth, it's because of of this forum and nothing to do with the current economic climate? That would be like me going out on a bender, drinking nothing but vodka and red bull, then waking up the next morning and blaming my headache on the red bull.

 

[gerryvz]

I think @magicbigdaddy 's question/friends concern is valid one, and I don't think it's a black and white yes or no. It can hurt some cars and help others. Two simple hypothetical examples:

I don't think these are hypothetical examples. There are plenty of real-world examples here on this forum.

• a well maintained E500E whose owner has kept up on the maintenance and has a car that is in good condition -and even perhaps documented some of it here so you have a whole history of the car. Potential buyers can check the car out here and get an understanding from forum members that say 130K miles on an E500E is nothing and therefore potential buyer may be more inclined to look at the car more favorably than he/she otherwise would have been. In the case, this forum could help.

You mean like @8899's or @Ntrepid's cars. Both of which got very good money. Because their cars were known cars, discussed here, and both are highly respected members. And both guys (and their auction descriptions) were about as honest as the day is long.

• a car that is not known to this forum (or very little known about it), that MAY have a list of needs and that list of needs may not be any different than say a 25 year old Porsche (in terms of total $$ - not exact same fixes obviously) will likely have every one of those "potential" needs called out here. To an uninitiated potential buyer, that can scare the daylights out of them, mostly because the critiques/questions are not done in context of say another high end car of the same era (Porsche, Ferrari, BMW....yea, I know these are not all in the same class for many reasons).

You mean like this car, or this car, or this car. All "unknown" cars that still did pretty nicely on BaT.

Contrast these situations with ones like the Rick Ball or Facebook-Guy ads for the A124 and T-bone Steak .036. Both of those sellers are about as crooked as a dog's hind leg.

 

[gsxr]

Yep, these cars did not use unique engines, or unique chassis (yes, they had bigger sway bars and flared fenders etc but not enough). They were not particularly low volume either, and they're not that fast anymore. So what makes a car with ~ 200k miles worth so much? The Porsche connection? They were helping VW built SEATs at the same time.

By golly, you are are right. There's nothing special about the high-volume 036, they are slow, worn-out and worthless with crazy high miles like 200k. And just the name Porch means they will be money pits to maintain. Why would anyone want one of these dinosaurs? What was I thinking?!!! That's it, I'm putting all of mine on BaT right now, with no reserve.

 

[alabbasi]

By golly, you are are right. There's nothing special about the high-volume 036, they are slow, worn-out and worthless with crazy high miles like 200k. And just the name Porch means they will be money pits to maintain. Why would anyone want one of these dinosaurs? What was I thinking?!!! That's it, I'm putting all of mine on BaT right now, with no reserve.

Don't do anything crazy. By forum. I meant 90% YOU and 10% everyone else. You're a 500E elder. Selling all your cars will collapse the values. Think of the children.

 

[gerryvz]

Yes, I can't imagine the effect of @gsxr cashing in all of his chips, and going full-bore LandRover, or W210/211. Changing the name of his web site to w210performance.com. It would seriously depress the market for the .034 and .036.

Contrast that with this site going tits-up. Nobody'd miss a beat! Everything would just transfer over to BaT comments on .036 models that come up for sale, Facebook's 500E Group, and the Banzworld V-8 W124 forum.

We all know the quality of information (let alone, commentary) on those venues.

 

[msq]

Yes, those are two good examples of "known" cars that did ok and this forum helped, and I remember some of the support for @Ntrepids car, which was well justified due to history and maintenance, and trying to make people understand that his car could be a better example to a much lower mileage one that was not maintained as well. That's a good case where the forum helped and it was well justified.

Regarding this forum potentially hurting other cars, especially unknown cars, simply due to scrutiny that doesn't always happen to say the air-cooled Porsches on BAT (which seems like 90% cheerleading) others on BAT have critiqued this forum for hurting values, and it made me think "is there something to that?" and you have the example from the seller above chosing to sell his Porsche vs. E500E, it seems partly out of concern for this, so I would not just dismiss it (btw: it's a good idea to sell the Porsche anyway. I am surprised how some of the air cooled Porsches are still holding value over last 3 weeks...I have no clue if this is an air cooled one referenced above).

My main point is when critiquing an E500E - to be fair and balanced its worth doing in the context of comparing it to any 25 year old car or the critique can be easily misconstrued.
This doesn't apply to the guys misrepresenting cars (examples above), they deserve to be exposed.

 

[gerryvz]

It's human nature to blame someone/something else for a "wrong" that one has preceived against them -- in this case, perhaps lower value than someone expected in an auction's results, or than they thought their car was worth. It's more important to look inward, at the actual car itself.

What would the factors have been with the car that caused the price it achieved? 90% of the time, there are going to be very concrete factors (however logical or illogical) that directly affect the value of a car -- whether they are pointed out here, or in BaT's commentariat (peanut gallery), or just simply go unmentioned in a public forum (but are known in the minds of potential buyers).

It's easy to cast blame onto others. It's much harder to actually consider that one's prized car may actually have significant flaws. And this is the very crux of the matter why my "Deferred Maintenance Laws" were so outrageous and anger-inducing when I first announced them (and amended them to double the amount for cars with >100K mileage).

You see, GVZ is the dickhead, because he called out the fact that he thinks MY precious car needs $10K worth of work, when it actually runs just fine. Of course, I'm just a few days into the top-end redo of my own 144K mile car, and my parts bill is already almost at $1,000. That's parts only, not labor.

This site and its sale listings and associated comments provide a nice "fair and balance" factor -- borne of knowledge and experience -- to the often uneducated commentariat over at BaT. Who wants a site that is 90% cheerleading all the time? How does cheerleading benefit the market -- and more importantly the cars? Because cheerleading leads to artificial inflation -- which leads to an eventual market crash.

Bottom line -- if a seller doesn't like the comments he sees about his car, or is afraid of the comments that may arise about his car -- the seller needs to look at his car and either represent it proactively and correctly (and that means your "fair and balance" information up front), or grow a thicker skin. Or decide not to misrepresent it in a one-sided way.

 

[Bogeyman]

I've been a small-time collector of Mercedes for a looong time - since before Internet forums.
Back in the day it was difficult at best to get correct information about whatever you were attempting.
Sure, everyone had an opinion, but verification was you deciding which one you believed.

Now, there are certainly still opinions out there and the inevitable controversies they implore, but we have a much better
mechanism to verify them.

Today, I wouldn't involve myself with a certain make/model of car without an excellent forum such as this one to back me up. Hence, I currently have 124s, 113s (sl113.org is excellent also) and 107s. I am currently getting out of the 107s simply because there is no decent online forum for them.

 

[msq]

.....
This site and its sale listings and associated comments provide a nice "fair and balance" factor -- borne of knowledge and experience -- to the often uneducated commentariat over at BaT. Who wants a site that is 90% cheerleading all the time? How does cheerleading benefit the market -- and more importantly the cars? Because cheerleading leads to artificial inflation -- which leads to an eventual market crash.
.....

You just made the point I was making: If a Porsche goes up on BAT (esp air-cooled) it's mostly cheerleading - except for the 1000+ IMS bearing comments for the later modeled ones - and their values are not usually hurt by the commentary, they are mostly helped, and yes a lot of it is unbalanced cheerleading. If an E500E goes up there and is linked to a critique here (vs. the cheerleading of a Porsche), then its value will be hurt relative to the Porsche. My point is NOT "is the questioning/critique" of the E500E accurate. However if the E500E model gets deeper and more critical scrutiny than say the Porsche, then yes it can hurt the value relative to the Porsche.
A more fair and balanced impact on values would be if both cars had the same level of scrutiny (positive & negative), but that does not happen most of the time (sure, separately, Porche air-cooled are inflated for a lot of emotional reasons).

 

[alabbasi]

My main point is when critiquing an E500E - to be fair and balanced its worth doing in the context of comparing it to any 25 year old car or the critique can be easily misconstrued. This doesn't apply to the guys misrepresenting cars (examples above), they deserve to be exposed.

What do you normally see WRT car ownership and their associated forums? Usually these two things:

1) When a car is fore sale
* Some people are going to question value as enthusiasts who became enthusiasts before the values shot through the roof which makes it hard not
to critique a sub standard car for premium money
* Some people are asses and will do it for sport because they like to blow up peoples sale (Gerry does a good job of keeping those type out)

2) When a car bought
*Some owners thinks that the value will double the moment the keys touch their magic hands
*Those are the guys that show up out of nowhere, and their first post is something like 'i just bought this car a week ago, what's it worth?'. Well if it's only been a week, then it can only be the magic fingers.

In any case, if anyone is freaking out about forums affecting the value of their car, they probably bought it wrong.

 

[gerryvz]

I think the difference is that cheerleading is going to lead to inflation of prices, because there is nothing to balance it and keep prices realistic.

A balanced commentariat based on knowledge, facts and experience is going to keep prices at a realistic level -- and avoid the artificial inflation that unbridled cheerleading helps foment. Keeping prices at a realistic level DOES NOT EQUATE TO depressing prices. It also does not equate to encouraging artificial price inflation. It means keeping prices at a market-correct level .... market equilibrium.

Isn't that the point of a free market, and capitalism, anyway?

If all we had was one-sided market cheerleading in the stock market, we'd probably have had a Dow of 100,000 rather than the 29,000 peak it got to earlier this year. Conversely, the coronavirus tempered the market because of its effect on the worldwide economy.

And now we have equilibrium happening. It's come back up a bit off its lows, and will probably (slowly) continue to do so over the next year or so. Will it hit the all time highs? Not likely anytime soon. But it has equilibrium with what the overall market (buyers and sellers of securities, bonds, stocks, loans, and so forth) believes it's worth. It's a balanced market with both positive and negative information.

And so it is for the 500E market. This forum provides knowledge and facts and experience. Buyers and sellers use (in small part) some of the information that is here, and many other inputs, to form THEIR OWN impressions of what any given car is or is not worth.

All this site is, is a data point. It is not THE ONLY data point. As was said, if any seller is using this site as a crutch to support their own self-delusional idea of what their car is worth, they are crack-pipe.

What is better for a market -- huge price appreciation in a relatively short time due to unbridled cheerleading, or a more steady and balanced market price (with its ups and downs) based on a balanced set of inputs and information? This site WILL NEVER BE an unbridled cheerleader for the E500E. It is an enthusiast site for the 500E, and it has its share of cheerleading, but it also has its share of tempered, realistic information that helps keep expectations and prices at a realistic place.

The mission of this site IS NOT to maximize prices for these cars. The mission of this site is to help owners (and prospective owners, and MB enthusiasts) learn more about these cars, and learn how they work, and how to have a great ownership/repair/maintenance experience.

 

[msq]

...not a fan of cheerleading (undeserved) nor inflated prices like the air-cooled market. I am a big fan of objective, balanced data. Regarding this site and maximizing prices for these cars, I have not heard anyone suggest that this site do that, and don't know anyone on here who would want that or who comes here for that.
Unconstrained cheerleading (or conversely downplaying) of anything, without and objective balanced view skews anything - no good for anyone (except those trying to take advantage of others).
I originally came here to get expert perspective and advice when I bought my car (which I got).

Your reference to the stock market and cheerleading made me smile: when "the experts" were all torching it the last 4 weeks, I did the opposite. The experts and "the crowd" were clueless, as is often the case. Best 4 week period in 20 years for me. But I am not going to use any of it to buy an air-cooled Porsche ;-)

 

[Melville]

I think msq makes a valid point. On BaT, so many cars only experience cheerleaders. And some high volume sellers have created a strange cult-like following where everything they sell is treated as perfect.

Then contrast that to an E500E where some comments validly point out that the car has, e.g., $10K in needs.

For the cheerleader car, some bidders naively think the car is perfect or has few needs. So they bid up the price beyond reason. In reality the car might need $10K, or more, in repairs. But that is not reflected in the price.

Then you have the E500E. People aren't used to hearing on BaT that a car that looks decent needs $10K in work. They are only used to cheerleading. They don't have the benefit of context that this Board provides to realize that a car that has $10K in needs can be fine. A lot of nice cars could use $10K in maintenance! But when you have people noting that the car has needs, instead of the usual cheerleading, people freak out and think the car is junk. As a result, some people bid less than they otherwise would or don't bid at all.

 

[msq]

@Melville just articulated it more concisely and clearly than I did

 

[gerryvz]

Well, that's the problem of the impressionable people who freak out and think the car is junk. Shame on them for not doing their homework for a major purchase.

Shame on the people who believe the cheerleaders and for being impressionable enough to believe that cheerled cars are perfect.

I think you guys are making too many assumptions about "low information buyers" ... akin to what some political circles call "low information voters." I think in both cases, most people are smarter (and make better decisions for THEMSELVES) than they are given credit for.

Most buyers of 500Es do the research, know (or learn) what the car is, and know what it's going to take to own and maintain one. How many people on this forum just said "Wow that looks like a cool car, I'm going to drop $30K on it!" and did it? 5%, maybe? How many people on this forum took months if not years to carefully find the right car, in the color and condition they wanted, at the right price point, and with acceptable maintenance history? Probably about 80%. How many people bought a car with the intent of flipping it and making big bucks? I'm not gonna answer that, but you can do the math.

 

[alabbasi]

How many people bought a car with the intent of flipping it and making big bucks? I'm not gonna answer that, but you can do the math.

How many people or how many people on this forum? Speaking for myself, I usually do the exact opposite. But let me ask a different question:

In the last 3-4 years, the value for what these cars have been changing hands for has gone up considerably. How many of those owners have stopped by and participated on forum? Enthusiasts usually do, flippers usually don't... unless it's to ask everybody what they think they could sell their car for.

I don't really have a problem with flippers. I think that everyone is entitled to make some money. They've priced me out of buying a 500E, but it has not stopped me buying other cars which keep me content. Like any other investment, it's a gamble, and I really can't say that I have much sympathy for any who say that they're not getting the money they want to see out of it because of perceived negative talk on the forum.

 

[gerryvz]

I meant how many people on this forum.

Flippers usually come and go. They score a car, get on the internet to research it quickly and look at values (BaT and eBay being key places), and come here to either advertise the car or ask questions as you say.

It's why I have a special category called "Flipper/Dealer" for these individuals (once identified and classified as such), with reduced privileges as compared to normal members.

 

[195910]

Best word in the thread: Cheerleading

An excellent description to what we see in the classic/collector car scene, people who have no connection to a particular car repeating the same cheers as individual with financial interest in the car. Have they ever driven an Air-cooled ? do they know that 100s of thousands of Air-cooled porsche exist ?

Its a cliche, got money ? now buy a porsche/ferrari... even if your A## gets stuck in the frame as you got in/out

 

[gerryvz]

Moderator's note: This thread was cleaved off of this "for sale" thread because it didn't have anything specifically to do with the car being offered for sale.


Just a FYI, I have a friend in the Seattle area that reached out to me to help him list his E500 on BaT as he knows I have listed and sold a few nice Benz's on that medium. As with many enthusiasts he visits this forum for tips and valuable information. He called yesterday and decided to hold off on the listing as he feared the influence of this forum and a possible "punch list" that could influence the sale of his car. His car is a great example and has been maintained over the years by one of Seattle's best indies but he's just a guy that enjoys cars but has other priorities at this time and was ready to move on. He has decided to sell his 911 instead as that market continues to be strong for great examples and possibly less chance of his sale being altered. Mike

By the way, the Prosper, TX car sold for over $22K, plus fees. This is despite the "punch list" and extensive discussion on the car's thread on this forum. In this market, a car with close to $200K going for over $22K is an excellent showing, IMHO.

So, I do not believe, as I stated earlier, that this forum has a significant/measurable effect on final sales prices for E500Es sold and at auction.

The only exception to this would be to expose a car that has undisclosed salvage title, or a washed title, or an unscrupulous seller who makes simply and knowingly wrong claims about a car. That being said, any other source of credible/knowledgeable/historical information available about a car, would have the same effect.

 

[maw1124]

This thread to me illustrates what is best about this site, the reason I’m glad I found it, and the reason I (like the commenter above @Bogeyman) don’t buy a car unless I have a good internet chat room to support that ownership. That is, high signal to noise comment, which is neither overly zealous cheerleading nor criticism, but rather educated, experienced balanced support and commentary. You don’t have to agree with everything to acknowledge it’s value.

As far as the effect on “value” from information or opinion, I’m not sure it’s worthy of much discussion, actually. The stock market provides a 100-year example: value is in the eye of the beholder, information is just that, everyone has an opinion, and it’s the investor’s JOB to filter through and DECIDE which is which.

People need to do their jobs and quit complaining, and similarly cheerleaders and people spouting ill advised opinions aren’t helpful. People on this site seem to know that better than most, it seems to me.

Cheers Folks,

maw

 

[195910]

That is, high signal to noise comment,

Cool RF engineer reference!

 

[LWB250]

As someone who has been involved in the Mercedes market since 1988 both buying and selling, I've found that the amount of chatter on a for sale thread, whether it be a BaT auction or a forum post, is a good thing. The more eyes on a car the better, even if some of those eyes are using Coke bottle lenses on their glasses, so to speak.

I have always described the cars I've sold in painful detail, pointing out every deficiency along with the good parts. Honesty is the very best policy, as it gives potential sellers a level of trust they might not otherwise gain from an unknown seller. I've had "side conversations" with various people who have literally told me I was stupid because I gave up too much information. The logic of this, if there was any, doesn't make any sense to me. I also believe being honest about a car, both good and bad points, adds value. Again, it boils down to how comfortable the seller is with the description and their knowledge of the car in general.

I liken it to buying a house. The color on the house may not be to my liking, but that's not going to change my attitude towards the house if it meets my needs. Paint is a relatively simple and inexpensive fix. Some people can't see past the ugly paint color. I have no problem with it at all, I'll just factor the cost to change it in my offer.

Much the same with a car. If the owner has bad taste and has mounted a tach on the steering column, OK, I can deal with that because I know I can have that tach gone and out of the way in about two minutes. It's far from a deal breaker. However, some might see the tach and immediately say, "No way!!" and run away as if their hair was on fire.

I have major anxiety after every sale I make that the buyer will be unhappy. Really. I put great deal of time, effort and pride into the work I do on my cars, and in doing so have standards that are probably higher than most would have for a car they've owned and sold.

But more importantly, I've found that discussion on a particular car in a public forum tends to elevate the car, not deprecate it. That is, unless the seller is misrepresenting it or just plain ignorant about the car. In that case, as has been pointed out previously, they deserve whatever public flagellation they get. You want to sell a car and get top dollar? You better be educated on it.

As for the original post, I can't imagine why someone would be concerned about the peanut gallery unless they were not confident about the quality of the car they wanted to sell. Sure, you'll always have that meatball in the back tossing out stupid comments, but the informed participants are going to be able to parse the information and filter out the noise.

As a secondary point, I have learned an amazing amount of things about various cars by reading the comments on BaT auctions. Lots of good knowledge often comes out in those posts.

Dan

 

[JAB12]

Adding a little more content to this thread, somehow I missed it back in April when it first surfaced. I have been a member of Rennlist for many years as my first passion is Porsches, specifically early to mid 90s aircooled. General rule of thumb for any self proclaimed Porsche connoisseur is if you buy an aircooled Porsche expect somewhere between $8-$10K off the bat in deferred maintenance. Regardless if the car is deemed to be in good condition. If you are OCD like most of us and are somewhat of a wrench then you can mitigate the cost a bit on DIYs and the multiple OE and aftermarket universe of parts available out there that can also help mitigate the costs. I found all but 2 of my Pcars on Rennlist and fostered great relationships with those seller/former owners since. I have also sold a car on Rennlist and same situation with new owner and others, so that forum from a buy/sell perspective can be fruitful if as a seller, you operate with full disclosure. And are NOT AFRAID of scrutiny. The car will be scrutinized and in some cases blatantly sabotaged by some ill willed individual tire kickers that live behind the scenes in keyboard warrior land over there. That has not been the case for me but I have had to step in multiple times in assistance of other members' listings. The scrutiny in this forum comes from a place of overwhelming knowledge which is a whole different approach and it is welcomed.

Now to .036s: I have been doing research and PPIing E500Es for close to 3 years now, up to Early 2020. I PPI'd during that time 13 examples, 3x '92s, 6x '93s and 4x '94s including the one I currently own. Sunken costs well worth it. I have only been a member of this forum for a little over a year and wish I would have joined 3-4 years ago despite having no car. Maybe I would have saved a lot on PPI costs and time.

As a pro and in relation to the OP's first post: Had I not been a member of this forum or searched for the VIN on that Silver '93 in MO with the low miles and the 19" AMGs I would have bought it. That was maybe the 3rd car I PPI'd I believe back in late 2017 early 2018. Because of the car's prior history found on this forum where the car is essentially a NorthEastern Rust bucket and undisclosed by any of the miriad of dealers that have consigned the car since, I passed before formalizing a deal. I had the actual owner's contact info from when he started to sell it on his own pre consignment and I privately addressed the car's previous condition with him and he was in denial and claimed the car was perfect. That was the end of that. Many thanks to this forum on documenting these cars in a way that is invaluable to people like me who just initially liked the way the car looks and lack the knowledge to know what to look for. Had any of the sellers of that car fully disclosed the prior history of the car and priced it accordingly it would be a different conversation, but there is a reason why it is probably still out there as last time I saw recently it was on ebay.

Now the BAT experience: I would go the opposite way, As a buyer or seller, I would welcome the Punch List produced on this forum as IMO the level of expertise in here about these cars is second to none. At least in this side of the pond. I would actually reach out to @gsxr @gerryvz or any of the other knowledgeable members in here and ask that they give me a punch list for the car and post it on the BAT ad as part of the sale. Or use it as part of my considerations for purchase. That way there is full disclosure and a potential buyer can go in eyes wide open. And the peanut gallery over there would have nothing else to say. In the last 2-3 auctions the comments are more geared about what the 500Eboard is commenting on the car for sale, than inquiries about the actual car for sale, it is hilarious in my view and is not productive for the car to sell, but it is mainly because it has not been properly marketed, detailed, disclosed or drafted correctly. A la Brabus 6.0 that flamed out. Or A la my car that flamed out too at RS (Thankfully). There is no need to be afraid to sell because the 500Eboard pool is going to have a negative effect on the outcome or the sale of the car, that is ridiculous. Post the car with a reserve as agreed with BAT and move on. But disclose all of the issues. If the car is well maintained and everything disclosed despite of mileage it will sell accordingly. As if I recall there was a white one from a member in here that sold favorably on BAT and had +100K miles, but it was a well cared for and fully disclosed and documented in here example. Can't recall the member's handle now. I personally would not have bought this car on BAT. I need the time to do proper PPI's get properly educated (still am learning) and consider all options.

On deferred maintenance costs: I wholeheartedly disagree with the prior posts comparisons of costs of deferred maintenance of .036s vs 90's aircooled Porsches. Maintaining an aircooled Pcar is half the cost or less of maintaining or addressing the deferred maintenance issues of an .036. I would challenge that any day. Especially with my current experience on addressing preventive maintenance on my .036 6.0 car. I expect a bill that would not even be close to those numbers had it been one of my aircooled Pcars, not by a mile. Further, I have never had to hoard parts for any Porsche variant as one has to do for an .036. They are more than readily available. On that alone your costs cannot compare, and when it comes time to sell, I doubt that many buyers out there will pay you the cost of the car, plus the added cost of your parts storage which would potentially be included with the car. They should, but most won't. Recent example of this is that 500E that is being sold with a wrecked parts car as a combo in the low $50s, it is still out there.

And finally: I would have never shortlisted my options had it not been for this forum, for that, I am forever grateful and for those members who helped me during my pre purchase process, as well as those who offered me their cars, some of which I PPI'd as well and handled in full privacy. Cannot thank you enough. You can be sure that if I ever decide to sell (unlikely) my first stop will be in here for full third party examination of any potential issues that need to be addressed and punch listed as part of the sale listing. This approach can kill 80% of the peanut gallery comments and focus on the positives of the car towards a good sell. IMHO the OPs friend should consider this approach if they are still considering selling that example. If not on BAT, then definitely in here as there are still other members looking for a good honest car.
@gerryvz Neat update on the photo insert. Well done.

 

[Jlaa]

The comparison on E500Es with aircooled Porsches is ...... not the best.

• Buyer pools are different. Lots of self-congratulatory / cheerleading folks are on Rennlist / go after Porsches. (e.g. lemme spam IG/FB w dozens of pics of my Porsche/shrine to Porsche/drooling over the temple of Porsche). E500E buyer pool tends to be more focused on the machine itself, less on the “image.”

• E500Es are more sophisticated machines than 90s 911s. There is more to go wrong. 90s 911s didn’t have an ETA. They don’t have vacuum operated locks. They don’t have 4 doors. They don’t have a visco fan clutch. They don’t have a radiator. They don’t have SLS. They don’t have a Bulb Out Warning System. They don’t have an auto climate control. Etc.

• At the same time people with 90s Porsches typically baby them more. Very few people rack up intergalactic miles on a 90s 911. E500Es get treated like dirt regularly.... even when production numbers of mid 90s 911 are 7x greater.

• Mid 90s 911s, even though they are simple machines, can easily match the cost of an E500E to keep over the long haul. They are equally as costly to keep as E500Es. No one talks about top end engine rebuilds at 80K miles on E500Es. 911? Par for the course. E500E needs a rebuilt trans? 1500-2K. 911? Start by tripling that. Beru plug wires for E500E? 230 clams. Beru wires for a 911? 450-500 clams. Oil change on a 90s 911? Raise car, take wheel off, undo a bunch of crap, replace TWO filters, 10.5 qts of oil, make a mess, etc. If you don’t wanna do it, it is 1.5-2.0 hrs of shop time. E500E? Suck out all the oil with your extractor and pop in a new filter, all topside, and chuck in 9-ish quarts of oil, all while tooling around your front garden and watering the flowers. Etc. This makes up for the fact that E500Es are more complex machines.

 

[gerryvz]

That is an excellent suggestion, to either publicly or privately "preview" a car with the powers-that-be on this forum, that you plan to sell via BaT. That way, a punch list can be proactively created, and a thread posted here that coincides with the debut of the auction on BaT. Proactively doing this step would save a lot of the banter on BaT, except for the idiots there who either know nothing or know just enough to know what an E500E is, but nothing really about the car and how it works.

There are quite a few folks on BaT who know other MB models, and by extension act like they intimately know the E500E. Just because you had a 126 coupe or a 124 cabrio or a 300D, doesn't mean you know anything truly substantive about the E500E, at least more than the average punter does.

It would be a good idea — particularly if a car has not been listed here before — to proactively run your photos and car history past a couple of the gurus here to get that punch list done. Any thread here is going to have far more depth than the peanut gallery at BaT anyway.

Re: the white car that was sold on BaT -- sounds suspiciously like @8899's car.

 

[JAB12]

@gerryvz Yes, it was @8899 's car. And most definitely a 500Eboard punch list included with the sale is as transparent as one can get on the condition of a E500E car for sale. When I read on the comments on BAT of the key board warrior gang it just dumbfounds me how un enlightened they are about these cars, and I consider myself to be the rookie in here based on my lack of knowledge, but it is just not helpful at all towards the proper sale of a car being offered in full transparency, such as the repainted modified blue e500 that IMO should have sold in there but the comments were counter to that, unfortunately.

 

[xfadmin]

One cannot blame individuals for not being knowledgeable about the E500E, on BaT. Everyone has cars that are near and dear to their hearts. However, un-knowledgeable individuals should not try to portray themselves as overly familiar with or semi-experts on the cars, as many tend to posit themselves as on the BaT E500E auctions. This, is unfortunate.

There are few individuals on this forum who are marque or model experts, say on a BMW E30 M3 or an E39 M5 (though there are a few owners here). But I do not see folks (non-owners) here inserting themselves and making fools of themselves on BMW auctions on BaT.

That's the difference.

 

[gerryvz]

It is interesting that the OP (original poster) never responded or replied to any of the following posts in this thread, after his original complaint about this forum with regard to his friend's fear his car would be picked apart. To my knowledge, this member has a Mercedes-related car sales and resto/repair business in the Seattle area?

This OP also made some very incorrect and inaccurate statements about the 500E in a post on the Banzworld 126 forum a couple of months ago, which I very pointedly corrected him on, and he slightly amended his post. Basically he said that Porsche didn't really make any contribution to the 500E other than assembling it, and dramatically downplayed the collaboration.

I expect more from someone who is a so-called MB professional.

 

[JAB12]

I think the bottom line and main take away from these recent E5E BAT experiences is that if you (as a seller) dealer or private, do not have the PATIENCE, transparency and ability to respond to all knowledgeable questions from prospective bidders or simple commentators then don't list your car on a public auction site with the aspirations to land above market pricing. Use the traditional sales approach. Nowadays the waiting list for a listing on BAT is 2-4 months from submission. I personally am not waiting 4 months to start the sale of a car, any car. I can live with it not selling during 4-6 months after it being offered for sale but not having to wait that long just to list it for sale. Next time I sell a Benz ( I only have 1 at the moment) I'll probably send it to that dry ice undercarriage blasting process first, seems to command a premium, then run it through the punch list in this forum if relevant to the model series this forum supports, W124, 126 etc. then would post the forum Punchlist in conjunction with the listing description for the car and then see what happens. If one has thin skin and impatience or lack of knowledge, public auction sites are not for you. Let's see how the example with the parts car duo performs.

 

[Jlaa]

I think the bottom line and main take away from these recent E5E BAT experiences is that if you (as a seller) dealer or private, do not have the PATIENCE, transparency and ability to respond to all knowledgeable questions from prospective bidders or simple commentators then don't list your car on a public auction site with the aspirations to land above market pricing. Use the traditional sales approach. Nowadays the waiting list for a listing on BAT is 2-4 months from submission. I personally am not waiting 4 months to start the sale of a car, any car. I can live with it not selling during 4-6 months after it being offered for sale but not having to wait that long just to list it for sale. Next time I sell a Benz ( I only have 1 at the moment) I'll probably send it to that dry ice undercarriage blasting process first, seems to command a premium, then run it through the punch list in this forum if relevant to the model series this forum supports, W124, 126 etc. then would post the forum Punchlist in conjunction with the listing description for the car and then see what happens. If one has thin skin and impatience or lack of knowledge, public auction sites are not for you. Let's see how the example with the parts car duo performs.

Is it really a 2-4 month waiting list? I have a nearly-new 23K miles Volvo V70R from 2006 that I wish to sell. The last time I sold a car was nearly 20 years ago so I'm basically a total newbie. 2-4 months seems absurd.

 

[Ntrepid]

Try carsandbids.com. Newer and similar format. I sold a blue 2005 E500 Wagon on there and the wait was totally on me as I was editing photos to accurately depict the car.


Robert

 

[LWB250]

A year ago it was 3 weeks, so based on the volume they're doing now I wouldn't be surprised that the lead time is well into a month or more.

Cars and bids has some nice deals, and they're not the stratospheric prices that BaT commands. If I sell the E420 I might see if they would list it.

-D

 

[msq]

Is it really a 2-4 month waiting list? I have a nearly-new 23K miles Volvo V70R from 2006 that I wish to sell. The last time I sold a car was nearly 20 years ago so I'm basically a total newbie. 2-4 months seems absurd.

Yes, it's what @JAB12 said.
Not like it used to be 2 - 3 years ago when it was a week or so.
This also almost implies you can't drive or use the car for 2 - 4 mos if you want to maintain mileage that you advertise etc.
A week or two, sure I can wait, 2 to 4 mos seems like a lot unless its a collector car you rarely drive anyway and then maybe it doesn't matter.
Also BAT is far more dealers than it used to be. There are some great cars on there as you already know, but their "success" and sale to corporate buyer means it's not what it was.
Good for them for their success, bad for everyday sellers if you have a unique/semi-unique car you want to sell there. I suspect (but can not say for fact - so I may be totally wrong) that you would get deprioritized over high volume dealer/sellers.

 

[Jlaa]

Try carsandbids.com. Newer and similar format. I sold a blue 2005 E500 Wagon on there and the wait was totally on me as I was editing photos to accurately depict the car.

A year ago it was 3 weeks, so based on the volume they're doing now I wouldn't be surprised that the lead time is well into a month or more.
Cars and bids has some nice deals, and they're not the stratospheric prices that BaT commands. If I sell the E420 I might see if they would list it.

Yes, it's what @JAB12 said.
Not like it used to be 2 - 3 years ago when it was a week or so.
This also almost implies you can't drive or use the car for 2 - 4 mos if you want to maintain mileage that you advertise etc.
A week or two, sure I can wait, 2 to 4 mos seems like a lot unless its a collector car you rarely drive anyway and then maybe it doesn't matter.
Also BAT is far more dealers than it used to be. There are some great cars on there as you already know, but their "success" and sale to corporate buyer means it's not what it was.
Good for them for their success, bad for everyday sellers if you have a unique/semi-unique car you want to sell there. I suspect (but can not say for fact - so I may be totally wrong) that you would get deprioritized over high volume dealer/sellers.

Cool!!!! I'll try Cars and Bids too. I'm not a frequent transactor of cars. My Volvo is semi-unique --- it is not a super-duper-unique car, and I am certainly not a dealer. I just have a car that is eating up space that is no longer relevant to our lives (want to simplify....)

 

[Ntrepid]

I'll also share that if you have been a BaT seller and have had successful auctions in the past, there is no rhyme or reason to their accepting or rejecting your submission. Your reputation as an honest and communicative seller apparently means nothing.

The 2005 E500 wagon I submitted to them after successful sales of a SL500, C36, R63, Ferrari 328, and Jaguar XKE was rejected as not being unique enough. However, a week later they had a similar vintage E350 listed. I'm sure you can appreciate that between the E500 and E350, the former is the more unique example.


Robert

 

[maw1124]

I've found myself spending more time on carsandbids lately... good cars, less investment hype.

Of course, it might just be Doug DeMuro making some money and building the site to sell... but I don’t see anything wrong with that.

maw

 

[ace10]

The peanut gallery on a typical C&B auction makes the peanut gallery on a typical BaH auction seem like a Mensa convention by comparison.

Has anything of any weight ever been discussed or dissected in C&B auction?

C&B took the BaH format and make some intelligent tweaks, but I don't visit often due to my self-imposed limit of reading the word "Radwood" only 1x/month.

 

[msq]

Cool!!!! I'll try Cars and Bids too. I'm not a frequent transactor of cars. My Volvo is semi-unique --- it is not a super-duper-unique car, and I am certainly not a dealer. I just have a car that is eating up space that is no longer relevant to our lives (want to simplify....)

@Jlaa is your 70R a manual?
If so you will sell it in a heartbeat.
Hard to find.