Engine oil recommendations

[gsxr]

I have been running Mobil Delvac 1300 super 15w-40 in my 92 500E with 134k miles, for the past 2 years. .... However, after reading through the oil discussions on here, my concern is the high ZDDP levels with this oil on the m119 and the catalyst. What are your thoughts on this?

Where did you find those ZDDP numbers? They look incorrect. And, it shows an old version (CJ-4) which did have higher levels than current CK-4 spec, but still only in the 900-1200 range... never 1300-1900. Click here to view the CJ-4 test data from years ago, type "Mobil" to filter.

The current CK-4 stuff that's been available since about 2017 has ZDDP levels around 800-900. Any Delvac 1300 Super you'd have purchased in the past 5+ years would be CK-4 rated with low ZDDP.

Furthermore, what are your thoughts on running this weight in the winter in [Atlanta]?

The factory Mercedes viscosity chart says 15W-40 is acceptable to temps a bit below freezing, so you should be ok running that year-round near Atlanta.

 

[Blacklisted_Stallone]

Where did you find those ZDDP numbers? They look incorrect. And, it shows an old version (CJ-4) which did have higher levels than current CK-4 spec, but still only in the 900-1200 range... never 1300-1900. Click here to view the CJ-4 test data from years ago, type "Mobil" to filter.

Thanks for the info @gsxr! I guess whatever information I found was completely incorrect. This is the link I had found the numbers from, which sparked my original concern. Oil ZDDP List

 

[Duh_Vinci]

I found this to be interesting... while a post from a Porsche enthusiast, the use of 15W50 is in the chart (DRIVEN DT50):

"For anyone looking for a direct comparison of Valvoline VR1 that a lot of people are using vs the Driven DT50 I use in all my classic cars (914, 944 S2, pair of 928s), and a wakeboat, here it is.
First sample on the report is the VR1 that I ran for 3,500 miles after purchasing the car from the PO as that's what he had been using for the decade he owned it. The latest column has the DT40, which ran 1,500 miles longer on the oil, and shows a 50% reduction in metal wear for most metals. Usually subsequent reports show further reduction, but not much left to reduce here, so we'll see.
I was particularly interested to see this report because of how many people run VR1, but this DT50 looks to be better, just like the comparisons I've done to Shell Rotella on my 928s when acquiring them.
DT50 for the cars mentioned above
FR50 for my pair of 997s and pickup
DI40 for my Cayenne Turbo S & Audi Q5
Nothing produces better UOA reports!"

 

[nehuge]

I’ve used diesel-rated Chevron DELO 400 15W-40 in my M104s for probably the last 12-14 years. Never had a single issue — and the DELO is explicitly also rated on the label/specs as being acceptable for gas engine usage.

The detergents in the DELO oil keep the inside of the M104 unbelieveably clean.

Did you ever do oil analysis on delo?

 

[gerryvz]

Did you ever do oil analysis on delo?

I do oil analysis on ALL of my engines / oils, yes.

I am happy to post any analysis you'd like. I have nearly 10 years of Blackstone oil analyses with my G-wagen's M104 using DELO, plus my previous E320 Wagon (digging deep back into the archives).

If you are interested to see the internals of an M104 that has used DELO extensively for years, just check out the engine photos in this thread.

 

[195910]

I understand the concerns regarding the Additive packages contained in the engine oils. Tier 1 oil manufacturers are forced to compromise on performance only to reduce "environmental effect" and fuel consumption. This is best represented by Maple1 0W40 (cause it looks like maple syrup?) on the M156 which was a disaster.

Time to look at motorsport oils that don't have a manufacturer approval but offer much greater performance and protection for both new and old gen engines.

 

[gerryvz]

I understand the concerns regarding the Additive packages contained in the engine oils. Tier 1 oil manufacturers are forced to compromise on performance only to reduce "environmental effect" and fuel consumption. This is best represented by Maple1 0W40 (cause it looks like maple syrup?) on the M156 which was a disaster.

Time to look at motorsport oils that don't have a manufacturer approval but offer much greater performance and protection for both new and old gen engines.

That's exactly the reason why I have used Brad Penn 20W-50 oil, which is a racing oil, in my 560SEC for the past 13 years since I pulled the heads and had everything redone. The M117 requires the higher levels of ZDDP that pretty much only racing oils have nowadays....

The M119/M104 don't have this requirement due to their valvetrain geometry and hydraulic lifter setup, which is very different than the M117/M103.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

My 500E is overdue for an oil change. Is there a concensus opinion on what oil best suits the M119 engine? I am in the mid-Atlantic states, in MD. My car doesn't get driven enough, because it's competing with others for drive time. I don't mean this as a complaint. Also it's been laid up recently with a starting issue, see thread on this.

 

[gerryvz]

My 500E is overdue for an oil change. Is there a concensus opinion on what oil best suits the M119 engine? I am in the mid-Atlantic states, in MD. My car doesn't get driven enough, because it's competing with others for drive time. I don't mean this as a complaint. Also it's been laid up recently with a starting issue, see thread on this.

Many people use RedLine oils, which are full synthetic and of the very highest quality. I use 15W-50 in my E500, which allows use year-around here in Maryland. These engines prefer a thicker oil, so I would not go below a 10W-30; some members do go with a 5W-30 or the like.

In my opinion, a 10W-40 or a 15W-50 is the perfect oil for these cars, per the MB spec sheet. MB seems to prefer -40 and -50 for the higher-weight of the multi-grade oils, and is fine with going as low as a 5W on the lower side.

I've attached the front page of the MB oil spec sheet, dated July, 1994.


My personal preference is to go just a smidge higher, hence the 15W-50 weight.

You can easily go 7,500-10,000 miles with RedLine; I change mine every 5K miles. I order it by the case via Amazon.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Thank you. I'll use that. She's getting the oil done in the next few weeks.

 

[Benzy Boy]

Redline 10w40 is the thinnest non-shearing synthetic oil and has the equivalent oil film of a 20w50 conventional oil.
You can't go wrong with this for the M119.

 

[yao500e]

Many people use RedLine oils, which are full synthetic and of the very highest quality. I use 15W-50 in my E500, which allows use year-around here in Maryland. These engines prefer a thicker oil, so I would not go below a 10W-30; some members do go with a 5W-30 or the like.

In my opinion, a 10W-40 or a 15W-50 is the perfect oil for these cars, per the MB spec sheet. MB seems to prefer -40 and -50 for the higher-weight of the multi-grade oils, and is fine with going as low as a 5W on the lower side.

I've attached the front page of the MB oil spec sheet, dated July, 1994.
View attachment 180460

My personal preference is to go just a smidge higher, hence the 15W-50 weight.

You can easily go 7,500-10,000 miles with RedLine; I change mine every 5K miles. I order it by the case via Amazon.

10w 40 or 15w 50 even for South Florida hot summers is ok? thank you

 

[gerryvz]

10w 40 or 15w 50 even for South Florida hot summers is ok? thank you

Or even 20W-50. These engines like thick oils, particularly in hotter climes.

 

[gsxr]

10w 40 or 15w 50 even for South Florida hot summers is ok? thank you

Or even 20W-50. These engines like thick oils, particularly in hotter climes.

Yup and yup. Any of the above is fine for warm climates like Florida.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

We used 15W-50, as it turned out. It's interesting how many different oils I've bought over the last few years, with my schizoid group of cars. The next one is an air-cooled 911, if it ever gets to the finish line. Another set of oils to learn about.

 

[Jlaa]

We used 15W-50, as it turned out. It's interesting how many different oils I've bought over the last few years, with my schizoid group of cars. The next one is an air-cooled 911, if it ever gets to the finish line. Another set of oils to learn about.

I use Mobil-1 15W-50 for both my 500E and my aircooled 911. Same oil & simplified sourcing.

 

[yao500e]

I use Mobil-1 15W-50 for both my 500E and my aircooled 911. Same oil & simplified sourcing.

nice. what state do you live in? are summers extreme heat?

 

[Jlaa]

nice. what state do you live in? are summers extreme heat?

I live in the Northern California Bay Area. The climate here is about as temperate as it can get.

In the Bay Area, the temperatures range between 40F - 95F.
Most of the time in San Francisco proper, the temperature ranges between 50F - 85F.

My house does not have air conditioning and it has single-paned windows (!!!)

Because of this, I run 15W-50 year-round.

 

[gsxr]

My house does not have air conditioning and it has single-paned windows (!!!)

Because of this, I run 15W-50 year-round.

I never would have connected those two dots!

 

[yao500e]

I live in the Northern California Bay Area. The climate here is about as temperate as it can get.

In the Bay Area, the temperatures range between 40F - 95F.
Most of the time in San Francisco proper, the temperature ranges between 50F - 85F.

My house does not have air conditioning and it has single-paned windows (!!!)

Because of this, I run 15W-50 year-round.

perfect. I'm south Florida hot. maybe I switch between 10w40 and 15w50

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I use Mobil-1 15W-50 for both my 500E and my aircooled 911. Same oil & simplified sourcing.

Useful to know and thank you. That is what we put in the 500E.

 

[yao500e]

I do oil analysis on ALL of my engines / oils, yes.

I am happy to post any analysis you'd like. I have nearly 10 years of Blackstone oil analyses with my G-wagen's M104 using DELO, plus my previous E320 Wagon (digging deep back into the archives).

If you are interested to see the internals of an M104 that has used DELO extensively for years, just check out the engine photos in this thread.

super clean! what is the best oil for M104 engines. 40 degrees coldest to 100 degrees south Florida style? thank you

 

[gsxr]

super clean! what is the best oil for M104 engines. 40 degrees coldest to 100 degrees south Florida style? thank you

All Mercedes engines from the 1990's would used the same viscosity oil for a given climate. M103, M104, M119, M120, M113... use the same stuff.

Things started to get weird in the mid-2000's with the introduction of diesels with particulate filters, and AMG engines with unique oil requirements...

 

[TerryA]

I never would have connected those two dots!

That’s a Great Zinger Dave!

BTW, I live in SoCal, Orange County and my knowledge my 500E has always had 20-50 oil.

 

[195910]

super clean! what is the best oil for M104 engines. 40 degrees coldest to 100 degrees south Florida style? thank you

Protection over fuel economy. A high SAPS motorsport oil in 5W50 or 15W50.

 

[gerryvz]

Yep, just use the MB brochure from the time the vehicle was new. The oil viscosity recommendations by temperature never change because oil viscosity standards never change. Fortunately the M119’s valve train geometry is modern enough that it doesn’t need friction mitigation additives (ie high ZDDP) like the M103 and M117 do.

 

[gerryvz]

Protection over fuel economy. A high SAPS motorsport oil in 5W50 or 15W50.

For Florida I would recommend 15W-50 or 20W-50.

Heck, for Maryland I use RedLine 15W-40 or 15W-50.

 

[gsxr]

My house does not have air conditioning and it has single-paned windows (!!!)

Because of this, I run 15W-50 year-round.

@Jlaa, I have central air conditioning and a mix of double-paned & triple-paned windows. What viscosity would you recommend?

(KIDDING!)

 

[Jlaa]

@Jlaa, I have central air conditioning and a mix of double-paned & triple-paned windows. What viscosity would you recommend?

(KIDDING!)

View attachment 183252

Clearly 0W-16.

 

[Benzy Boy]

I only use cold pressed extra virgin olive oil in my M119 for optimum health benefits and longevity.

 

[195910]

I only use cold pressed extra virgin olive oil in my M119 for optimum health benefits and longevity.

Best Recommendation so far.

 

[gerryvz]

I only use cold pressed extra virgin olive oil in my M119 for optimum health benefits and longevity.

I thought only Ferrari drivers did that…

 

[Trae]

Jono sent me this information on age vs. milage of oil.

Would've saved hundreds over the years had I known, but now we know.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/motor-oil-age-doesnt-matter-as-much-as-mileage-study

Motor Oil Age Doesn’t Matter as Much as Mileage: Study​

An oil testing laboratory has found that the conventional wisdom of six-month oil changes might be a waste of your money.

BY JAMES GILBOY|PUBLISHED FEB 28, 2024 11:31 AM EST

When it comes to caring for cars we cherish, it's better to play it safe than sorry. If you're like me, you've been changing your oil every six months whether you've done 900 miles or 5,000, wondering if you were premature when it doesn't come out inky black. Well, those days are over for me, because oil analysts at Blackstone Laboratories have tested old oil from a variety of sources, and they say it's the miles that matter most.​

​

The results of several tests were outlined on an episode of the company's podcast Slick Talk: Powered by Blackstone Laboratories. The episode in question was uploaded in December, but only recently gained traction on social media such as Reddit. In it, host Joe Adams recounts pulling a half-full bottle of Mobil 1 0W40 off the shelf, and contacting its producer to find out more about it. The bottle turned out to be almost 14 years old, and Mobil 1 said its age meant it'd broken down and wouldn't properly protect an engine. But when pressed, it wouldn't explain how, so Blackstone ran it through a battery of tests.​

​

Blackstone said it tested a variety of the oil's characteristics, from measuring additives to water content, flash point, viscosity, insolubles present, and the oil's ability to neutralize potentially harmful acids and bases. Even though the oil was made in September 2010 and had been sitting half-full for an unknown period, it tested just fine. That led to several follow-up tests of other old oils from varying sources to work out the circumstances that cause oil breakdown—and the answer was pretty clear.​

​

Sampling oil from several engines, from a 2020 Ford F-150 with the 3.5-liter Ecoboost with six months on its fill to engines that'd held their fills for five-plus years, Blackstone consistently found low-mileage oils to be within spec. Tests were run not just on gas cars, such as a 1996 Lincoln Town Car that'd gone five years and an unknown number of miles since its last change, but also a diesel 2000 Ford F-350 with the 7.3-liter Powerstroke. There was even a test of 10-year-old oil from a 1995 Porsche 993 that'd done just 776 miles since its last change, and it too measured good.​

For the most part, anyway. Some tests revealed higher iron or silicon content, which could indicate wear. But their potential sources are too numerous to say with certainty that the oil was at fault.​

​

"Calendar time is no reason to rule it out," Adams said of old oil. "Miles are what you need to be keeping track of."​

​

Naturally, there are exceptions to rigid mileage schedules. Engines that spend many hours idling or see severe service, like towing heavy loads or track use, should get more frequent changes. Aircraft and other engines with open breathers that can admit water should also see stricter oil change schedules. But for my cars? From here on out, I'm watching the odometer, not throwing away oil that's still the color of whiskey after six months.​

 

[Trae]

For M117

Brad Penn 20W50 Green Racing Motor Engine Oil Penngrade ZDDP Zinc Single Quarts | eBay

PennGrade 1. ®Partial Synthetic Racing Oil SAE 20W50. ® High Performance Oils contain the higher level of anti-wear (ZDDP – zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) and enhanced film strength so critical to proper high performance engine protection.

www.ebay.com

For M119 and M120, I use:

15W50 Fully Synthetic Engine Oil (1 Gallon) - Red Line 11505

15W50 Fully Synthetic Engine Oil (1 Gallon) - Red Line 11505

www.fcpeuro.com

 

[sheward]

Jono sent me this information on age vs. milage of oil.

Would've saved hundreds over the years had I known, but now we know.

Motor Oil Age Doesn’t Matter as Much as Mileage: Study

An oil testing laboratory has found that the conventional wisdom of six-month oil changes might be a waste of your money.

www.thedrive.com

I always suspected the same. I've owned many cars that didn't get driven regularly and changed the oil based solely on milage. I've also used non synthetic exclusively and changed it frequently according to milage mainly to get dirt. metal, and combustion byproducts out of the engine although I did start using synthetic in one 036 since purchase.

 

[R129 UK]

When you guys say Red Line is expensive, how expensive is it?

I'm in the UK and was considering it but as I need more than 2 of these it would equate to ~US$250:

 

[gsxr]

RedLine had been ~$50/gallon through late 2022. As of early 2023, pricing has increased to ~$66/gallon ($17/quart).

While I like the stuff, at the new price, it's only worth it (IMO) for special use cases - competition, M119 6.0L, etc.

Edit: I still plan to use Red Line engine oil and ATF in my 036's. However in my daily-driver 034's, I might downgrade to Mobular-1 instead. Not sure yet, almost all our vehicles still have Red Line in the sump.


With cromulent synthetic oils (Mobil-1) available at ~$5/quart at Walmart in 5-qt jugs, it's more affordable to use that and reduce the change interval as needed.

10W40 Motor Oil

Popular for medium and heavy-duty gasoline engines in light trucks

www.redlineoil.com

Red Line Synthetic Oil 11405 Red Line Synthetic Motor Oil | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Red Line Synthetic Motor Oil with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Engine Oil at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

 

[R129 UK]

RedLine had been ~$50/gallon through late 2022. As of early 2023, pricing has increased to ~$66/gallon ($17/quart).

10W40 Motor Oil

Popular for medium and heavy-duty gasoline engines in light trucks

www.redlineoil.com

Ok, it’s nearly double the price on this side of the pond.

I’ll keep an eye on prices and offers for Mobile1 etc. here.

 

[Benzy Boy]

If you love your car like it’s your baby you gotta put in Redline no matter the cost.
If you don’t care about it that much then mobil1 and the other fake synthetics will suffice.

 

[R129 UK]

If you love your car like it’s your baby you gotta put in Redline no matter the cost.
If you don’t care about it that much then mobil1 and the other fake synthetics will suffice.

I’ve managed to find some 15W50 Red Line for a very reasonable price.

Alternatively I could go for this which is even more reasonably priced and also fully synthetic:

 

[gerryvz]

I will continue to use RedLine lubricants in my E500 and G-wagen (transfer case, front and rear differentials, and transmission fluid) no matter what the cost is. I only need to change the oils every couple of years due to the amount of mileage I put on my vehicles, so no plans to stop using them.

For engine oils I'll continue to use Chevron DELO 400 15W-40 (M104), RedLine 15W-50 (E500/M119) and Brad Penn/Penn GradeOne 15W-50 or 20W-50 (M117).

Liqui-Moly would likely be a top-three or top-four oil choice for me, no question. Excellent quality products.

 

[R129 UK]

I managed to buy 3 of your United States mini-gallons for the equivalent of $49.01 each.

What would be the recommended change frequency in terms of mileage or time for this oil?

Based in the South of the UK so neither end of the temperature scale is particularly harsh.


Thanks.

 

[gsxr]

I managed to buy 3 of your United States mini-gallons for the equivalent of $49.01 each.

What would be the recommended change frequency in terms of mileage or time for this oil?

Change interval (miles) depends on the application and useage. For normal street use with minimal idling/city service, probably 5-7kmi? Oil analysis would be nice to confirm the TBN isn't getting too low, especially if no oil is added/consumed (added oil boosts TBN). WIth lots of highway miles you might get 10kmi (with analysis to confirm).

I've never changed oil based on time alone, but most of my cars that are not in storage end up getting the oil changed between 1-3 years, generally at 5kmi, some pushed to 10k. Scroll up and read post #933 above for more info.

 

[gerryvz]

For RedLine, I personally change my oil at ~5,000 miles; it is easily safe to go up to 7,500 and even 10,000 miles (I do not recommend 10K, but I know some folks do take it that long).

For the DELO 400 and Brad Penn oils, which are both "dino" (don't let Brad Penn's marketing of it as a "partial synthetic" fool you -- it is DINO OIL) -- I go 3,000 miles.

Always a filter change with every oil change. Hengst filters are highly recommended (made in Germany), though Mann, Mahle, MB and others are just fine.

I get an oil analysis with TBN calculation with every oil change.

 

[gsxr]

With quality synthetics and relatively normal usage (not competition/race use, not a turbocharged application, not a city taxi, etc)... 5kmi should be fine even without oil analysis. Pushing towards 7-10kmi, I'd recommend analysis to verify the TBN is not below 1.0 minimum.

If the measured TBN is still healthy (say, 3-4 or higher) the oil could have been used longer. You can buy a vacuum pump from Blackstone to pull an oil sample out of the sump before changing, to have it analysed, and decide if you need to change immediately / soon vs waiting another few thousand miles. Analysis isn't cheap though.

Once you figure out typical TBN results for your specific vehicle/oil/driving combination, you can probably skip the analyses if none of the variables change significantly. I get analysis with every oil change just because I'm anal and like to have the data. Might even boost my resale value by ten bucks or so!

 

[R129 UK]

Thanks for your insights @gsxr and @gerryvz

I do very few miles in the SL so will probably go for a 5k mile interval.

Edit - not too familiar with oil analysis probably because I’ve only had run of the mill cars previously but it’s available for -£40 which is about half the cost of the oil.

 

[gerryvz]

Edit - not too familiar with oil analysis probably because I’ve only had run of the mill cars previously but it’s available for -£40 which is about half the cost of the oil.

Here's an example of an oil analysis from Blackstone, one of the leading oil analysis firms in the US.....

This is for the M104 in my G320.

 

[alabbasi]

Would the Costco 15W40 oil fit the bill?

 

[gsxr]

Would the Costco 15W40 oil fit the bill?

That's standard dino oil, not synthetic. But it's cheap at ~$12/gallon, if available near where you live.

And yep, it will be fine for the M119/M104 if changed by 3000 miles. No extended drains with dino. Allegedly meets MB spec 228.3/.31.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/new-kirkland-15w-40-diesel-engine-oil.328930/post-5817806

 

[R129 UK]

Here's an example of an oil analysis from Blackstone, one of the leading oil analysis firms in the US.....

This is for the M104 in my G320.

Thanks for sharing Gerry, you might want to take the report down or modify it so that your personal details aren't showing to all.