Hi, it was posted before but im unable to find it via search, im looking for the comparison pictures of both cranks.
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560 M117 vs. M119 Crankshaft (Pictures)
- Thread starter Christian_K
- Start date
Yes i think it was 2 pictures posted above eavh other but the cranks were photographed from the same angle
I'm actually quite sure it was either here posted, somewhere buried in an unrelated thread/topic which got offtopic, or it was linked from here to another Benz Forums.
I'm sure Dave gave a comment on that too, damn if i could recall all that correctly.
2,3 posts before the picture, someone claimed that you can easily use the 5.6 M117 crankshaft for E60AMG, but then because of those pictures one could see that its not that easy actually.
More i don't remember.
The AMG E60 engine manual stated that AMG modified the M117 crankshaft but it does not have specific details as to exactly what was done besides some machining and rebalancing. I don't know if it's "easy", but it is possible, and that's how AMG did it. And RENNTech, Brabus, etc...
Yes its the same they have done to the M119.974 crank as oposed to the M119.960 crank. (Acoording to both Introduction into Service manuals)
They reduce the diameter of all the counter-weights to "R=82-0.3", so it can turn in the block at all.
Bernard then told further in his W140 Forums, that after this costly machining is done, the crank gets rebalanced with "heavy-metal plugs" into the counter-weights again.
However i'm not sure if there were other differences between the cranks. I mean for instance overall length, front part where the chain attached to, etc.
They reduce the diameter of all the counter-weights to "R=82-0.3", so it can turn in the block at all.
Bernard then told further in his W140 Forums, that after this costly machining is done, the crank gets rebalanced with "heavy-metal plugs" into the counter-weights again.
However i'm not sure if there were other differences between the cranks. I mean for instance overall length, front part where the chain attached to, etc.
I thought there was some comment somewhere to removing a counterweight? I know the Outer diameter of the couter weights is reduced 2 mm according to the AMG service manual. I assume rebalancing to get the forces to match better with the different piston/rod combinations.
Love to see a picture. Maybe in Bernard stuff?
Look at the nascar cranks- they greatly reduce the counterweight ( knife edging) and then add tungsten plugs. Rho ~0.5 versus steel of .28.
Michael
Love to see a picture. Maybe in Bernard stuff?
Look at the nascar cranks- they greatly reduce the counterweight ( knife edging) and then add tungsten plugs. Rho ~0.5 versus steel of .28.
Michael
Is it worth having an M117 560 crank for future use in am M119 engine?
I also thought that the flywheel bolt pattern is different on an M1117 vs M119?
I also thought that the flywheel bolt pattern is different on an M1117 vs M119?
Is this any use
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r129-sl-class/1538246-sl500-v8-m119-engine-overhaul.html
post 7
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r129-sl-class/1538246-sl500-v8-m119-engine-overhaul.html
post 7
The crank is machined on the counter weights, radius reduced as stated above, further "heavy metal plugs" are inserted to compensated the weight loss. But overall the crank has the same length, bearing diameter etc. as the normal 119 crank, hub for belt drive and flywhell fits too. How i know? Fitted 119 ME fly wheel and belt drive on my W123 117 engine...
I can't recall, but some where I read that to build an 6.0, one needed an m117 crank out of a 560?
That is correct. And you need to bore cylinders to 100mm. AMG head gaskets $850+ /pcs.
. I am building stroker and I do need to modify that M117 crank since I use M119.960 block.
No. The LH module is for LH electronic injection system only (119.97x).
The KE Jetronic (CIS-E) is 119.960 only and I believe you need a CIS-E module adjusted for the 6L displacement. However, I know very very little about the CIS-E/KE systems and I am NOT sure what exactly is required when you bump up the displacement on those motors.
The LH engines are easy... remove 5L module, install 6L module. Plug & play!
Also, you can only use a 117 crank in a 960 block. 974 bearing width is smaller.
I was at Bernards 6.xL Garage last week... Incredible, speechless, really... We were driving around in his 600HP W140 7.4S Brabus Limo - very nice car but to heavy for the power somehow. My CL55 Kompressor feels quicker or more agile. Anyway...
He showed me all the insane tuning projects he is working on. There might be a N/A 500+ HP M119 in a few years - this is his most secret project so i'm not allowed to tell you how (its not rocket science though).
Bernard has done CNC 5-Axis programmed head Porting, he has the Files for all cast aluminum head types of the M119s. 20% More flow than already hand-ported/polished heads on the wet-flow bench!!! With bigger valves of course, with special oval valve-guides, etc. He will offer that cylinder head tuning soon.
I did some pushups with the 6L cast cranks and the 6.5L cranks that he get milled from forged steel (and that were lying around there - LOL) - THAT is a real difference in weight. Unbelievable. Also he does a lot of things on the rods for weight reduction, or offers titanium rods cusstom made for all M119 types.
That man has so many 6L Parts lying around there that you get jealous.
He also does most of the tuning Chips himself. So he has created lots of base files for all common displacements and other part combinations with the ECU programmer guy, that apparently does all the tunes for AMG and another (secret) larger german MB tuner.
Then you get the Chip from him, move with him and your car 3miles away to a dyno that is actually operated by a guy (Prof. Dr.!!!) that teaches engine science at the Stuttgart university (IIRC). You dyno your car, then they check the AFR map and if neccessary adjust the map back at Bernards Garage. And if your combination is really something special then this ECU guy comes and does the tune with Bernard for your car.
He showed me all the insane tuning projects he is working on. There might be a N/A 500+ HP M119 in a few years - this is his most secret project so i'm not allowed to tell you how (its not rocket science though).
Bernard has done CNC 5-Axis programmed head Porting, he has the Files for all cast aluminum head types of the M119s. 20% More flow than already hand-ported/polished heads on the wet-flow bench!!! With bigger valves of course, with special oval valve-guides, etc. He will offer that cylinder head tuning soon.
I did some pushups with the 6L cast cranks and the 6.5L cranks that he get milled from forged steel (and that were lying around there - LOL) - THAT is a real difference in weight. Unbelievable. Also he does a lot of things on the rods for weight reduction, or offers titanium rods cusstom made for all M119 types.
That man has so many 6L Parts lying around there that you get jealous.
He also does most of the tuning Chips himself. So he has created lots of base files for all common displacements and other part combinations with the ECU programmer guy, that apparently does all the tunes for AMG and another (secret) larger german MB tuner.
Then you get the Chip from him, move with him and your car 3miles away to a dyno that is actually operated by a guy (Prof. Dr.!!!) that teaches engine science at the Stuttgart university (IIRC). You dyno your car, then they check the AFR map and if neccessary adjust the map back at Bernards Garage. And if your combination is really something special then this ECU guy comes and does the tune with Bernard for your car.
I've replaced some oval valve guides in my day. I'm suspecting that these aren't precisely the same things nor for the same reasons...
"WWKS?" (What Would Kent Say)...
Wow. I always wo feted where limitations were.
Love to see a dynno chart. Torque curve would be awesome. What rpm for 500hp? 7200. Ti rods the issue is coatings for the cylinder pairs in co tact.
I've got a large piece of ti..
Will he sell parts to us USA guys?
I don't think we ha e to rely on amg for headgaskets. We just need to do a small run. Sealing technology has improved. Just like you don't have to use amg pistons.
Biggy has always been a integrated motor. Cam, ezl, and lh must work together. Even the amount of advance and regard, plus rpm are on the table to be changed.
New similar bore engines now use 7mm valve stems. Renntech increased exhaust valve sizes a few mm. 38 to 39 on intake.
Love to hear more. 400 rwph is perfect for a 500e. That may push it to 200 mph. Renntechs were 186 published mumber.
I would rather pay a royalty and have my local 5axis guy do the machine work.
M
Love to see a dynno chart. Torque curve would be awesome. What rpm for 500hp? 7200. Ti rods the issue is coatings for the cylinder pairs in co tact.
I've got a large piece of ti..
Will he sell parts to us USA guys?
I don't think we ha e to rely on amg for headgaskets. We just need to do a small run. Sealing technology has improved. Just like you don't have to use amg pistons.
Biggy has always been a integrated motor. Cam, ezl, and lh must work together. Even the amount of advance and regard, plus rpm are on the table to be changed.
New similar bore engines now use 7mm valve stems. Renntech increased exhaust valve sizes a few mm. 38 to 39 on intake.
Love to hear more. 400 rwph is perfect for a 500e. That may push it to 200 mph. Renntechs were 186 published mumber.
I would rather pay a royalty and have my local 5axis guy do the machine work.
M
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Less width will cut bearing drag that's for sure if you could run it.
Notice you have a old Pontiac in the vehicle list and this was an old Smokey trick he used back in the early/mid 60's in his 421 SD's running the punched 389 blocks with the smaller journals but the 421 stroke in Nascar. I did the same thing in a couple round port 455's by using a .60 over 400 block and a 455 stroke crank running the smaller journals. Was worth almost 50 HP at 7000 RPM over a standard journal sized 455!
Uhh yeah....kind of like THESE "GVZ" pups....
Attachments
Bet you were, like a little boy in a toy shop and not allowed to take anything home
So what's the base price if I wanted a 6L/6.5L conversion done at his shop ? Did he come up with a figure?
Just like those...
Right, this was the difference between 3.5 and 3" journals, but I don't think its width dependent. I think it was because of diameter, the surface speed at 3.5" is higher than 3". I think bearing width adds negligible drag, but I know on old American cars with big power the long journals caused fretting on the edges of the bearing surfaces. I can't really remember, but that sounds right.
I have a 3.5" pontiac crank for my 428 build, it's a serious piece of iron. I like his thing about having the dynamic compression ratios the same
Christian_K, can you share us how much stock M119 head flows? And if possible try to get that data updated to : http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm
No. Not without any mods in the engine/exhaust.
I have no Data and when he states that his CNC ported Heads with larger valves and Ported exhaust manifolds will increase flow around 20% above his previously done, hand-ported/polished heads, then i have to believe him.
No, actually IIRC there will be two engines with 500HP++ he makes. And keep in mind that Bernard is a veeeeery conservative guy when it comes to power ratings.
One 500HP is a custom project for a dentist in Sweden IIRC, its actually on the base of the 6.5L Brabus M119 (450HP rated), but Bernard adds his CNC milled Heads with those bigger valves and better cams, his ported and widened + ceramic coated exhaust headers (with good flow improvements aswell, together with CNC heads and larger valves), Titanium Rods, dual-flow exhaust with 100cell metal catalytic converters and an ECU adjustment on the dyno. He said this will bring that particular engine at around 500 crank HP. Price was beyond 45.000€ for the naked engine itself IIRC including the exhaust. But i'm not sure anymore when it comes to price figures, because this day was information overflow in my brain.
The other 500HP engine will get that power even without titanium rods and other super special parts... and its still a N/A M119
IIRC, all his new made 6L M119 engines get the new made forged Kolbenschmitt 100.5mm bore pistons, where he did an initial run of 50 pieces - otherwise Kolbenschmitt would not have done them he states. The guys that were with him in the Steakhouse during our meet in Bottrop this year, could spot those pistons in his trunk.
And thats the next point: All of the 90s tuners don't have parts for M119 Tuning anymore so he lets them all custom made. And from the crank over the rods up to pistons and stuff, he only chose the biggest well known german companies as his parts suppliers.
While more expensive (one 6.5L Forged Crank is 10.000€/Piece for him) he argues that he is always conservative and he wants reliable engines, not some experiments "like they do over the pond/USA" he says - he often criticizes stuff seen in the US and that its not reliable and would according to his experience and knowledge, never withstand a 30minutes V-MAX German Autobahn run.
And thats a point were Bernard and me do NOT come to a "common ground" in our arguments. I'm more the experiments guy and i really would try 65% cheaper Woessner pistons with Molykote piston skirt coatings for my personal 6L build - he would never use them if its not proven that they do last 200.000km in Germany with V-Max runs on the Autobahn.
Same goes for the bore operation itself. He lets all customers (and his own) blocks be bored, honed + silica polished at Brabus in Bottrop for at least twice the price my local engine shop would charge me, however he said again "They've (Brabus) done it since the late 80s, they know how to and they have gathered so many experience in boring/honing M119 blocks that i trust them everytime over any other engine shop - their work is 100% everytime".
Also as an Entrepreneur, he has to provide warranty on his work in Germany (and Europe? - i dont know), so if he builds an engine that brakes down after less than what the usual warranty obligations include, he is in trouble.
Now comes another problem. A "basic" 6L naked engine is 25.000€ without german VAT for germans at his shop. Now add labor for pulling the old engine and putting the new one back in, then we know that when pulling an engine we quickly see other issues that needs to be fixed ($$$) on these cars, the paper work for German TuV and its fees (street legal driving), etc etc. Then you are 10.000€ on top easily - we all know those 500E/M119 price tags. Thats sometimes to much for interested customers that want a bit more power from their 5L engines.
And he says that there is a trend that many of the M119s drivers want a bit more power from their cars, even if the customers want to keep them 100% stock from outside, but the 6L pricetags - not even to speak about the 6.5L pricetags - are often to much money for those people.
So he has also now a different concept in development with a IIRC 5.6L M119 (And IIRC he tries even a stock 5L) with CNC Heads, Cams, Dual-Exhaust and 7000RPM limiter, the cast crank gets made much lighter, same goes for the stock rods, etc.
It will cost much less than a 6L and should produce close to 400HP, but with less torque than a 6L of course. All those Developments will be ready for sale as packages in the next years - according to his plans.
He also strongly wants the next International 500E meet at his garage next year. So like Jelmer, Gerry and other suggested as some sort of "Home base". The area he lives is really the "best" area for driving around. The S-Class Club also goes out there for the most beautiful rides. So maybe next year we know more whats new about all his planned developments.
Well, that all sounds wonderful and I am a big supporter of German machinery. I still think for us the in the states we could source parts of equal quality for nearly half the cost. I worked in engine durability for a short time and to prove 150k miles is months to years of testing. Mercedes has a test schedule of 13 different types of tests they run over and over to ensure quality and it still didn't catch head bolt issues, idler pulley issues or whatever else. So its difficult to predict real world outcome from a parts list. They are parts designed by humans, made by humans, installed by humans so nothing will be perfect.
What I have been wondering is if I put my car on a dyno, can these guys tune it through remote desktop?
Also, not a fan of NASCAR, but I did get to see a motor in a dynocell at Chrysler make 450+ftlbs at 10,000 RPM...it was a near religious experience.
What I have been wondering is if I put my car on a dyno, can these guys tune it through remote desktop?
Also, not a fan of NASCAR, but I did get to see a motor in a dynocell at Chrysler make 450+ftlbs at 10,000 RPM...it was a near religious experience.
Ahh,
So the 500 hp are 6.4's and not 6.0 liter engines. We'd all love to know more from Bernard's works, but don't necessarily agree with his philosophy. Seems like he is saying is engines are the best because he chargest the most for them? You mentioned him getting a new run of pistons- did you notice what coating was on the skirts? Is it the old iron vapor deposited or something new? I'm sure Vath does a good job with boring. Here in the USA, I think there is maybe 2 or 3 places for boring. West cost, New York and I am assuming in Florida.
10,000 euros is insane for a crankshaft!!!! WOW. I was looking the other day at billet 928 stroker cranks are $3,500. I can only see $$ for a net-forging.
The best intriguing thing is Bernard is still making parts for M119's and chips.
Michael
So the 500 hp are 6.4's and not 6.0 liter engines. We'd all love to know more from Bernard's works, but don't necessarily agree with his philosophy. Seems like he is saying is engines are the best because he chargest the most for them? You mentioned him getting a new run of pistons- did you notice what coating was on the skirts? Is it the old iron vapor deposited or something new? I'm sure Vath does a good job with boring. Here in the USA, I think there is maybe 2 or 3 places for boring. West cost, New York and I am assuming in Florida.
10,000 euros is insane for a crankshaft!!!! WOW. I was looking the other day at billet 928 stroker cranks are $3,500. I can only see $$ for a net-forging.
The best intriguing thing is Bernard is still making parts for M119's and chips.
Michael
Wait until you meet him. He's an awesome guy in person. I can't believe I didn't meet him until this year. We were going to get together about 4-5 years ago but I never did. Stupid me.The more I read about this Bernard guy, the more I like him!
I'm also a "Sparfuchs", a guy that likes to get the best bang for the buck, thats why i will (most likely) not use Bernard as my Parts supplier, so still my initial Plan is to build a 6L for around 10.000€/Parts. If i would have a much higher annual salary, i would be tempted to use Bernard and just say "Go ahead and build it for me", so i would be out of all the time, tears and sweat intensive building process - and i would just know "It Works!" and it will work for years to come.
The pistons are still iron spray coated, yes. And neither Mahle not Kolbenschmitt use something different till today and they both have the patents for that technology. Those are very big companies, that not only are OEMs for the majority of the cars manufacturers around the globe, but also for Racing and Motorsports. I would trust their experience with Alusil engine blocks and pistons to be honest. Bernard also says, "It works, its proven since almost 30 years, so why experiment? What if your engine will then fail because of a bad piston skirt coating? All the time and money wasted!" - And i somehow agree with him. Hes just a guy because he owns a niche company, that simply has the philosophy of "Better safe than sorry".
So i don't necessarily have the picture of him "demonizing" all other ways and parts of buliding/tuning M119/M120 engines. He just has Experience with hundreds and hundreds of those engines since more than a decade. He saw all kinds of tuning from all companies that done M119/M120 tuning around the world.
Most if not all Mercedes Shops in a large area around his company location, bringing their customers with M119 and M120 engines to Bernard. IIRC even some of them AMG centers. So hes well known as a specialist around Germany and even shops around Europe, for these kind of engines. I tend to trust his experience.
Hes for instance not a big fan of "Väth" that you mentioned, he told us some stories of unsatisfied M119 6L customers of Väth that either had engines that did not produce the advertised power (not even close) or shortly had seizures in all bores. But i cant tell more, because some of the cases there are legal actions be taken against Väth so i dont want to stir up something here.
But i personally would tell you, after he told us some of the recent Väth stories, i would NEVER buy a 6L conversion over there these days. There were times when Väth had a good reputation before some administration personnel changes have happened.
Back to the topic with his customers:
According to Bernard there are maaaaaany of exactly such guys around the world that just have the money and just want to have more power out of their M119, M120 engines. By the way he also did M113 and M156 tuning aswell as newer V12 engines but he don't likes them. The thing is, there seem to be so much of those power-hungry guys around the world that Bernard just recently hired another person that does the engine assembly stuff and another person for his bureau - in other words his company is growing, despite he has no website nor ever done ANY form of advertising. Its just mouth-to-mouth advertising through forums and stuff.
So what i wanted to say is that it will take many months still, if you ship your car to him now and lets say you order a 6L, it will probably take some very long months to complete. As Dirk and me visited him, there were IIRC 6-7 500Es in his shop for conversion to 6L or to get restored/whatsoever. So he is very busy...
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