30th anniversary of 036: Tracing the story of the Mercedes-Benz 500 E, as it turns 30

[JwashE]

Tracing the story of the Mercedes-Benz 500 E, as it turns 30​

Tracing the story of the Mercedes-Benz 500 E

Porsche was commissioned to design the fast touring saloon by what was then Daimler-Benz AG. Thirty years on, two of those involved in the project take a look back.

newsroom.porsche.com

"Michael Hölscher, Project Manager Development, and Michael Mönig, from Prototype Management, last sat in the 500 E almost three decades ago. Today, they have 100 kilometres to cover, taking in Zuffenhausen, Weissach and Sindelfingen on the way. Their route starts and ends at the Porsche Museum and when they arrive, the 500 E is waiting outside, reflected in the building’s striking mirrored ceiling. Its exterior is finished in Sapphire Black Metallic (colour code 009), while inside is a mix of leather, wood, colourful door trims, electrically adjustable sports seats and a cassette radio. "

 

[ace10]

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2021/history/porsche-commissioned-project-mercedes-benz-500-e-30th-anniversary-24575.html

Porsche laying claim to designing the 036.

 

[Jlaa]

Thanks! Here is the link without the leading text: Tracing the story of the Mercedes-Benz 500 E, as it turns 30

Love this quote:

“Looking at the car today, it’s almost impossible to believe that the design could be so perfect 30 years ago without CAD data. I have enormous respect for my colleagues in the body shop and especially their vision,” says Hölscher as he looks the saloon over like an old friend he hasn’t seen in far too long.”

 

[BTR]

On a hunch…..thought this Porsche Museum video and editorial might be of interest to 500Eboard.

Herr Hölscher and Herr Möenig, Project Manager and Prototype Manager, respectively, of Porsche’s Typ 2758, touring manufacturing and development sites of the E500E while discussing the background of this very special project.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CPdea5zCAhb/

Tracing the story of the Mercedes-Benz 500 E

Porsche was commissioned to design the fast touring saloon by what was then Daimler-Benz AG. Thirty years on, two of those involved in the project take a look back.

newsroom.porsche.com

ADMIN EDIT: Added YouTube version of IG link above:

 

[JwashE]

Tracing the story of the Mercedes-Benz 500 E

Porsche was commissioned to design the fast touring saloon by what was then Daimler-Benz AG. Thirty years on, two of those involved in the project take a look back.

newsroom.porsche.com

At the bottom of the blog posting there are two videos of the event as well.

 

[smilecenterlab]

autoweek just posted a nice article about the 500 E turning 30

 

[gsxr]

Interesting that the air intake ZoomTubes™ may have been insulated due to noise levels!

 

[gsxr]

...and there STILL manages to be incorrect information! The 4-place seating had absolutely nothing to do with the rear differential, and the 036 can be converted to a 5-seater if desired.

"By April 1995, 10,479 examples had been built – all of them four-seaters, because the differential was so large that there was no room for seat suspension in the middle of the rear bench. "​

 

[2phast]

Believe there is some good information in this article

Mercedes-Benz’s Mighty 500 E Turns 30

Porsche tells the back story on the Daimler-Benz AG/Porsche collaboration from two people who helped bring the car to life.

www.yahoo.com

 

[195910]

@gsxr the comments on the intake system were the most interesting. Need to know what the original setup looked like.

 

[JwashE]

...and there STILL manages to be incorrect information! The 4-place seating had absolutely nothing to do with the rear differential, and the 036 can be converted to a 5-seater if desired.

"By April 1995, 10,479 examples had been built – all of them four-seaters, because the differential was so large that there was no room for seat suspension in the middle of the rear bench. "​

@gsxr , they noted there was no room for "seat suspension"...could that be correct relative to what Benze's quality control standards were at the time? Or does it the entire rear bench from a standard 124 fit with no modification?

 

[msq]

Mercedes-Benz’s Mighty 500 E Turns 30

Porsche tells the back story on the Daimler-Benz AG/Porsche collaboration from two people who helped bring the car to life.

www.autoweek.com

I believe the Yahoo article came from the above....anyway, maybe not new info to many, but a decent article.
I never heard this claim however: "Porsche says that with a 90 per cent development share, it was responsible for nearly all the work necessary for integration of the drive and vehicle components."

Not criticizing it, but trying to understand what the authors point is....is he saying that Porsche did 90% of the development? Is their definition of "development" the same as "design"?

 

[2phast]

...and there STILL manages to be incorrect information! The 4-place seating had absolutely nothing to do with the rear differential, and the 036 can be converted to a 5-seater if desired.

"By April 1995, 10,479 examples had been built – all of them four-seaters, because the differential was so large that there was no room for seat suspension in the middle of the rear bench. "​

Yes, you may be able to convert it, but seat suspension is compromised due to the larger tunnel, enough so that they decided against five place seating. It could of been worded a bit better.

 

[emerydc8]

In the video they seem to imply that all the transmission tunnels on the W124 V8s (e.g., 400E/E420) had to be widened to accept the V-8 engine. Did we ever settle on whether it was Porsche or Mercedes who did the tunnel-widening design/work on the 400E and later E420? I remember a recent video where it stated that the 400E was sent to Zuffenhausen too.

The 722.3xx transmission was used in the 300E too, so was it the size of the V-8 that pushed the transmission further aft in the tunnel, requiring widening?

 

[Ntrepid]

It's the 30th anniversary of the 500 E, the Mercedes-Benz that Porsche built

Porsche helped develop and build the Mercedes-Benz 500 E touring sedan that arrived with V-8 power 30 years ago.

www.motorauthority.com

 

[TerryA]

Pickey, Pickey, Pickey, Just enjoy the article for what it is. I know at my age that something I did 30 years ago might not be that clear to me either. It was nice to hear comments from the original Project Managers. After 30 years and the numerous other projects that came after the E500E I’m surprised that they actually got most the info correct. I’m sure a lot of refreshing of their memories was done for this piece. It’s nice that Porsche is keeping our Type 2758 - E500Es in the spotlight.

Personally, I very much liked the press release and thought it was a pretty comprehensive.

My Thanks to Porsche

 

[gsxr]

@gsxr , they noted there was no room for "seat suspension"...could that be correct relative to what Benze's quality control standards were at the time? Or does it the entire rear bench from a standard 124 fit with no modification?

The entire rear bench from a standard 124 fits with no modifications, other than adding the 3rd seat belt. Several forum members have done this over the past ±20 years.

Yes, you may be able to convert it, but seat suspension is compromised due to the larger tunnel, enough so that they decided against five place seating. It could of been worded a bit better.

This isn't really accurate, because the .034 has the same rear floor pan, with standard 5-place seating. The .034 has the same subframe, differential, and floor pans. The .036 items were not different; or at least not different enough to affect the seating, or not allow a 3-place rear seat.

In the video they seem to imply that all the transmission tunnels on the W124 V8s (e.g., 400E/E420) had to be widened to accept the V-8 engine. Did we ever settle on whether it was Porsche or Mercedes who did the tunnel-widening design/work on the 400E and later E420? I remember a recent video where it stated that the 400E was sent to Zuffenhausen too.

I believe the widening was primarily for the catalytic converter area, although there may have been some differences above the transmission bellhousing as well. AFAIK, Porsche did not do the chassis mods for the .034, or at least there's never been any proof... and I don't know if Porsche could have handled the additional 25k units of .034 on top of the 10k total .036 units produced. This would be more than triple the production (>35k instead of ~10.5k) and doesn't make sense to me. Not saying it's impossible, but seems more likely that claim is inaccurate.

The 722.3xx transmission was used in the 300E too, so was it the size of the V-8 that pushed the transmission further aft in the tunnel, requiring widening?

I don't know, but my guess is the width of the V8 engine required the firewall to be re-shaped, which may have had some changes at the top/entry of the transmission tunnel. I don't know if the transmission tunnel itself is any wider (at the midsection, approximately) compared to a non-V8 chassis. Now, the area where the catalysts are, which is what the video dudes are saying is wider... this would be right between the front seats, and would explain why the seat frames are narrower in the V8 cars. And also explains why the 6-cyl rear floor mats do not sit flat when installed in a V8 car.

 

[Efraim]

According to EPC the transmission tunnel (A124 610 07 71) and firewalls (A124 620 21 08 left, A124 620 22 08) are used only in V8 models. So these part are not reshaped (by Zuffenhausen nor Sindelfingen boys) but totally different part from vendor.

I have an understanding that also distance between front seats in .36 & .34 is some millimeters wider. Don't know if thats is true as I haven't had chance to measure .36 and normal W124 with sportline seats side by side.

The narrower seat frame was a surprise for me. I did have to check it. Yes, it's true. The V8 models have unique parts also there.

 

[RicardoD]

Great article and video. Is my car worth $5k more now?

 

[gsxr]

I have an understanding that also distance between front seats in .36 & .34 is some millimeters wider. Don't know if thats is true as I haven't had chance to measure .36 and normal W124 with sportline seats side by side.

The narrower seat frame was a surprise for me. I did have to check it. Yes, it's true. The V8 models have unique parts also there.

The .034 and .036 share the same catalysts, seat frames, etc. So the distances between seat rails/frames should be identical across the V8 models; i.e. the .034 has seats in the same position as the .036 relative to vehicle centerline.

What I'm not sure about is if the V8 seats are actually not in the same location vs 6-cyl models. This would not make sense, as it would result in the driver seat not being centered with the steering wheel centerline, which would seem very un-German.

 

[Markus-MD]

 

[msq]

From the Motorweek article I had asked above I wonder what they meant by: ""Porsche says that with a 90 per cent development share, it was responsible for nearly all the work necessary for integration of the drive and vehicle components."
Also, I know there's been a lot of speculation of who (specifically) did what between MB & Porsche.

The video gives the answer my question about what the article meant by "development". Its straight from the horses mouth (the Project Manager)

“We (Porsche) were responsible for the Development, in other words we made all of the modifications to the W124 needed for the engine, chassis and so on to fit into this car. All of the development work was outsourced to us. Along with all of the production planning. The bodyshell had to be planned all over again and then also the assembly.”​

Later:

“In this case, however, Mercedes said they would look after all the styling and aerodynamics and Porsche would do everything else. Meaning designing the body, chassis, exhaust system and engine peripherals, acoustics, vibration and electrics, which accounted for a large part of the work. We installed completely new electrics here with a CAN-Bus system, which at the time was unchartered territory for both parties. Us and Mercedes.”​

Not to simplify it to such base level but it sounds like Mercedes said to Porsche: We have this W124 sedan and we have an 8 cylinder from an SL500, we'd like you to make it all work together, we'll take care of styling and aerodynamics, but you make everything else work (I know the bodies went back & forth between MB & Porsche, but at a high level its sounds like this is what the agreement between MB & Porsche was).

 

[Efraim]

What I'm not sure about is if the V8 seats are actually not in the same location vs 6-cyl models. This would not make sense, as it would result in the driver seat not being centered with the steering wheel centerline, which would seem very un-German.

According to parts catalog all seats parts above bottom frame are common over W124 series. So your questing is still valid, do V8 drivers sit offset to steering wheel or are there perhaps minor twists to centerline? Still it would be very odd to MB. This issue is not documented in comprehensive Intro to service - manual.

 

[114C124E]

Tracing the story of the Mercedes-Benz 500 E

Porsche was commissioned to design the fast touring saloon by what was then Daimler-Benz AG. Thirty years on, two of those involved in the project take a look back.

newsroom.porsche.com

 

[Ctibulschii]

In the tracks of the 500 E – Part 2 | Our friends from the Porsche Museum made two videos about the Mercedes-Benz 500 E that are so awesome that we decided to share them :-) On we go, from... | By Mercedes-Benz Museum | Facebook

Our friends from the Porsche Museum made two videos about the Mercedes-Benz 500 E that are so awesome that we decided to share them :-) On we go, from...

fb.watch

 

[gerryvz]

I think at least 5-6 people have posted about this Porsche 30th anniversary of the 500E thing.

I have moved the thread to a very public part of the forum, so that everyone can see it.

Since the topic has been covered by so many people, and the threads have been combined into this single thread on the topic, any future posts relating to this topic will be deleted as redundant and unnecessary.

 

[szvook]

Not that I needed another publication to reassure me why I will never sell my whip, but having the Porsche M&M’s still admire the work they put in 30 years ago adds another notch in my belt.

 

[Bogeyman]

I just wonder why Porsche apparently lets their employees comment/reference on their experiences while we never hear from MB people.
Do they sign a no disclosure before employ?

 

[szvook]

I rather hear from Porsche, since they did all the work and I don’t think Mercedes can chime in at the details level. They were at the back of the bus on this one.

Let’s face it, if the 036 was a Mercedes only child, would it really have the mystic it has...

 

[195910]

Strange how Porsche celebrates the 30th Anniversary and emphasis on the historical/technological importance of the 124036. While Mercedes ignores all of that and stops producing even basic spare parts to kill off the remaining cars.

 

[ace10]

Strange how Porsche celebrates the 30th Anniversary and emphasis on the historical/technological importance of the 124036. While Mercedes stops producing even basic spare parts to kill off the remaining cars.

Don't worry, Porsche abandons its current customers just fine.

My Panamera has been out of service since October 7, 2020, awaiting a warranty repair. With no end in sight.
This has easily been the worst ownership experience I've ever endured.

 

[JAB12]

Don't worry, Porsche abandons its current customers just fine.

My Panamera has been out of service since October 7, 2020, awaiting a warranty repair. With no end in sight.
This has easily been the worst ownership experience I've ever endured.

What's wrong with your Panamera?. I had a '10 launch edition turbo which was affected by the AH08 recall and I couldn't drive it for 3 months and I still have all the contacts that helped me get the issue resolved at the PCNA level. PM me if you would like to discuss.

 

[speedy300dturbo]

...and there STILL manages to be incorrect information! The 4-place seating had absolutely nothing to do with the rear differential, and the 036 can be converted to a 5-seater if desired.

"By April 1995, 10,479 examples had been built – all of them four-seaters, because the differential was so large that there was no room for seat suspension in the middle of the rear bench. "​

There might be some truth to this. Assuming that chassis development of the 500E was happening in the late 80s, the rear seats available for prototyping during that time would be the early W124 (MY86-89) type. Early rear seat bottoms are indeed different than 90-95 models, but I'm still not sure what the "seat suspension" issue was.

Early W124 rear bench cushion:

Late W124 rear bench cushion:

 

[gsxr]

Thanks for the photos, Aaron! If anything, it looks like the early rear seat would have more room since it's all "open".

The rear subframe and differential are all located behind the rear seat floor pan, so none of those components should affect rear seating. If the larger subframe/diff really did cause problems, the .034 would not have existed with 5-place seating, or would have had a different rear seat bottom unique to the .034 chassis. The EPC indicates this is not the case.

 

[CAN_E420]

This was released 4 days ago from the Porsche Museum.
Since I don't have Instagram, I was only able to snag part 2!


Login • Instagram

 

[alabbasi]

Are they talking about the Seat Ibiza? That was around the system porsche days.

 

[Glen]

Here are screen captures of the grams:

 

[bing]

Good latest article and video, footage never seen before on internet and Porsche engineers being very proud. Something new - didn’t know it was developed at Weissach

Porsche Celebrates 30th Anniversary Of The Mercedes-Benz 500 E That It Helped Build | Carscoops

 

[195910]

Hi Bing,

Its already here on the forum.

 

[gerryvz]

Hi Bing,

Its already here on the forum.

Yes ... I think the sixth or seventh person who has posted the same thing. I consolidate all of the started threads into this single thread on the same topic. I hope everyone is enjoying the redundancy of this thread !!!