AI shows us how to make the E500E faster!

[gsxr]

@sixto asked Chatty GPT how to make the 1994 E500 faster. The response is below.

Why didn't we think of all these things before? I'm shopping on Temu right now for a larger throttle body and cold air intake! I'll be outrunning AMG twin-turbos in no time!



==================================================================

The 1994 Mercedes E500 (also known as the W124 E500) is a classic performance car with a naturally aspirated 5.0L V8 engine (M119), and while it was fast for its time, modern cars have obviously outpaced it in terms of power and speed. If you're looking to make it faster, there are several ways you can improve performance. However, keep in mind that modifications can affect reliability and value, especially for a classic car like the E500. Here are some options:

1. Upgrade the Engine​

• Performance Tuning/Chip Tune: A performance chip or ECU remapping can improve throttle response and increase horsepower by optimizing the air/fuel mixture and ignition timing. Some tuners offer software specifically for older Mercedes models.
• Cold Air Intake: Replacing the factory air intake with a cold air intake system can allow for more air to enter the engine, improving combustion efficiency and potentially increasing power.
• Performance Exhaust: A performance exhaust system, particularly headers and high-flow catalytic converters, will reduce exhaust backpressure, freeing up engine power. A sportier exhaust tone is a bonus!
• Larger Throttle Body: A bigger throttle body allows more air to flow into the engine, improving performance. This can be combined with other mods like a cold air intake or chip tuning for noticeable gains.
• Upgraded Camshafts: Performance camshafts will alter the timing of the intake and exhaust valves, allowing for better airflow and increased performance at higher RPMs.
• Forced Induction: Adding a supercharger or turbocharger can dramatically increase horsepower, but this is a major modification that involves a lot of other supporting upgrades (fuel system, intercooler, exhaust, etc.) and can compromise the car's reliability if not done carefully.

​

2. Improve the Fuel and Ignition System​

• Upgraded Fuel Injectors: Larger or higher-flow fuel injectors can help supply the engine with more fuel to match any increases in air intake. This is especially important if you're adding forced induction or making significant engine changes.
• High-Performance Ignition Coils and Spark Plugs: Upgrading to higher-output ignition coils and performance spark plugs can improve combustion efficiency, especially in higher-revving applications.
• Fuel Pump Upgrade: A higher-capacity fuel pump may be necessary if you're running additional performance modifications that require more fuel.

​

3. Transmission and Drivetrain Improvements​

• Transmission Tuning/Upgrade: A quicker-shifting transmission can reduce the time it takes to shift gears, improving acceleration times. For the E500, the 5-speed automatic transmission (722.6) could be remapped for quicker shifts.
• Limited Slip Differential (LSD): If your car doesn't already have one, upgrading to an LSD can improve traction and reduce wheel spin under hard acceleration, which improves acceleration and handling, especially in cornering.
• Gear Ratio Change: Changing the final drive or gear ratios can improve acceleration. This mod would involve swapping out the rear differential gears for ones that are better suited for faster acceleration, though it may affect top-end speed.

​

4. Suspension and Handling​

• Upgraded Suspension: The E500’s stock suspension can be replaced with a more performance-oriented setup. Coilovers, adjustable shocks, and sway bars can improve handling, cornering, and stability at higher speeds. A performance suspension can also lower the car's center of gravity, improving aerodynamics.
• Lighter Wheels: Lighter wheels (for example, forged alloys) reduce rotational mass, improving acceleration and handling by making the car more agile.
• Better Tires: High-performance tires with better grip can increase traction, allowing you to put the increased power down more effectively.

​

5. Weight Reduction​

• Remove Non-Essential Weight: Reducing the car’s weight can improve acceleration and overall performance. You can remove or replace items like the spare tire, sound deadening, and rear seats. Lightweight racing seats or carbon fiber body panels (e.g., hood, trunk, doors) can shave off significant weight.
• Lightweight Battery: Replace the stock battery with a lightweight lithium-ion battery. These batteries can reduce weight and improve overall performance.

​

6. Aerodynamics​

• Front Splitter or Lip Spoiler: Adding an aftermarket splitter or lip spoiler can improve downforce at high speeds, providing better stability and grip.
• Rear Spoiler: A subtle rear spoiler can help with aerodynamics and keep the rear of the car more planted at higher speeds.
• Lowering the Car: Lowering the car can reduce drag and improve handling, especially at high speeds.

​

7. Brake System Upgrades​

• Larger Brakes: With an increase in performance, you’ll need better braking to keep up. Upgrading to larger, vented, or slotted brake rotors and high-performance pads can improve stopping power.
• Big Brake Kits (BBK): If you're going all-out on performance, installing a big brake kit from a company like Brembo or AP Racing will provide superior stopping power, helping with high-speed driving and track days.

​

8. Regular Maintenance​

• Keep It Tuned: Ensuring your car is always properly tuned, with clean spark plugs, oil, filters, and fluids, is essential for maximizing performance.
• Cooling System: An upgraded radiator or additional cooling components can help ensure the engine stays cool under higher performance loads, which can prevent overheating or engine damage.

​

9. Optional: Engine Swap​

• If you want to go really wild, an engine swap to a more modern Mercedes engine could be a major performance boost. For example, swapping in the M113 5.4L V8 or even a turbocharged engine from the AMG lineup would add a lot of power and modern reliability. However, this is a significant and costly modification that requires heavy modification to mounts, wiring, and supporting systems.

---

​

Some General Tips:​

• Start with the Basics: Focus on tuning, exhaust, intake, and suspension first. These can provide noticeable improvements without requiring a full engine overhaul.
• Balance: Don't just focus on power — improving braking, suspension, and weight distribution is key to maintaining the car's balance and keeping it safe at higher speeds.
• Keep it OEM-Style: Since it's a classic, you might want to keep modifications tasteful to preserve its classic appeal while still improving performance.

Is there a specific performance target you're aiming for, like a certain horsepower or acceleration time? Or are you just looking to make it more fun to drive?

 

[gerryvz]

What ..... ??? No NOS?

 

[gsxr]

What ..... ??? No NOS?

Uh-oh. ChatGPT needs to go back to basic training. Maybe it hasn't mined all the data on 500Eboard yet?

 

[TerryA]

@gsxr,
You better get on it! Where have you been far the last 20 years? Just dump an additional $50K into your go fast drag cars and you’ll be kicking ass at the strip!

 

[sheward]

A bunch of generic BS.

 

[gsxr]

A bunch of generic BS.

Yes. Many, many words that provide essentially zero useful information.

The sad part is, a lot of people - particularly young'uns - will believe most anything AI tells them. Because that is easier than doing the hard work of actual research... and (gasp) thinking for yourself.

 

[sheward]

It's likely you could have put any model of car in your query and gotten the same response.

This is what will be running things soon after the critical thinkers (thinking for yourself) die off. Telemedicine anyone?

 

[doolar]

At the job interview:

Employer: Where do you see yourself in five years?
Me: Fighting Skynet with the rest of the survivors, if you want to live come with me.

 

[gsxr]

At the job interview:

Employer: Where do you see yourself in five years?
Me: Fighting Skynet with the rest of the survivors, if you want to live come with me.

 

[maw1124]

A bunch of generic BS.

Artificial... and not intelligent.

maw

 

[maw1124]

Yes. Many, many words that provide essentially zero useful information.

The sad part is, a lot of people - particularly young'uns - will believe most anything AI tells them. Because that is easier than doing the hard work of actual research... and (gasp) thinking for yourself.

Man, I've seen people now in the car forums posting AI answers to peoples' questions.

I'm like, "You realize all of that shit is wrong, right? Oh, of course you don't. You missed the first 20 years of the internet."

maw

 

[szvook]

I started to work in the tech sector (software) in 1996, strictly for the money. I paid attention to how tech has been changing people over time and witnessed its affect from the trenches. My conclusion is what I knew all along…people have gotten dumb as fuck and will continue getting dumber.

 

[maw1124]

I started to work in the tech sector (software) in 1996, strictly for the money. I paid attention to how tech has been changing people over time and witnessed its affect from the trenches. My conclusion is what I knew all along…people have gotten dumb as fuck and will continue getting dumber.

Except for the tech entrepreneurs, who are generally getting smarter and more resourceful (at least the ones I work with -- generally over those same 30 years)... problem is their customers generally fit the description you've articulated, which isn't helping our cause any.

maw

 

[szvook]

When I think about the decline in human qualities, due to advancement in tech, this quote always resonates with me “Technological progress has merely provided us with more efficient means for going backwards.”

 

[Draginev]

I started to work in the tech sector (software) in 1996, strictly for the money. I paid attention to how tech has been changing people over time and witnessed its affect from the trenches. My conclusion is what I knew all along…people have gotten dumb as fuck and will continue getting dumber.

The real root cause because of techs, people read less books.
I'm stocking books in my shelves because I would knew that once AI is fully powered and functional, it will change everything.
Literally everything. Unless you are offline.

 

[yao500e]

@sixto asked Chatty GPT how to make the 1994 E500 faster. The response is below.

Why didn't we think of all these things before? I'm shopping on Temu right now for a larger throttle body and cold air intake! I'll be outrunning AMG twin-turbos in no time!



==================================================================

The 1994 Mercedes E500 (also known as the W124 E500) is a classic performance car with a naturally aspirated 5.0L V8 engine (M119), and while it was fast for its time, modern cars have obviously outpaced it in terms of power and speed. If you're looking to make it faster, there are several ways you can improve performance. However, keep in mind that modifications can affect reliability and value, especially for a classic car like the E500. Here are some options:

1. Upgrade the Engine​

• Performance Tuning/Chip Tune: A performance chip or ECU remapping can improve throttle response and increase horsepower by optimizing the air/fuel mixture and ignition timing. Some tuners offer software specifically for older Mercedes models.
• Cold Air Intake: Replacing the factory air intake with a cold air intake system can allow for more air to enter the engine, improving combustion efficiency and potentially increasing power.
• Performance Exhaust: A performance exhaust system, particularly headers and high-flow catalytic converters, will reduce exhaust backpressure, freeing up engine power. A sportier exhaust tone is a bonus!
• Larger Throttle Body: A bigger throttle body allows more air to flow into the engine, improving performance. This can be combined with other mods like a cold air intake or chip tuning for noticeable gains.
• Upgraded Camshafts: Performance camshafts will alter the timing of the intake and exhaust valves, allowing for better airflow and increased performance at higher RPMs.
• Forced Induction: Adding a supercharger or turbocharger can dramatically increase horsepower, but this is a major modification that involves a lot of other supporting upgrades (fuel system, intercooler, exhaust, etc.) and can compromise the car's reliability if not done carefully.

​

2. Improve the Fuel and Ignition System​

• Upgraded Fuel Injectors: Larger or higher-flow fuel injectors can help supply the engine with more fuel to match any increases in air intake. This is especially important if you're adding forced induction or making significant engine changes.
• High-Performance Ignition Coils and Spark Plugs: Upgrading to higher-output ignition coils and performance spark plugs can improve combustion efficiency, especially in higher-revving applications.
• Fuel Pump Upgrade: A higher-capacity fuel pump may be necessary if you're running additional performance modifications that require more fuel.

​

3. Transmission and Drivetrain Improvements​

• Transmission Tuning/Upgrade: A quicker-shifting transmission can reduce the time it takes to shift gears, improving acceleration times. For the E500, the 5-speed automatic transmission (722.6) could be remapped for quicker shifts.
• Limited Slip Differential (LSD): If your car doesn't already have one, upgrading to an LSD can improve traction and reduce wheel spin under hard acceleration, which improves acceleration and handling, especially in cornering.
• Gear Ratio Change: Changing the final drive or gear ratios can improve acceleration. This mod would involve swapping out the rear differential gears for ones that are better suited for faster acceleration, though it may affect top-end speed.

​

4. Suspension and Handling​

• Upgraded Suspension: The E500’s stock suspension can be replaced with a more performance-oriented setup. Coilovers, adjustable shocks, and sway bars can improve handling, cornering, and stability at higher speeds. A performance suspension can also lower the car's center of gravity, improving aerodynamics.
• Lighter Wheels: Lighter wheels (for example, forged alloys) reduce rotational mass, improving acceleration and handling by making the car more agile.
• Better Tires: High-performance tires with better grip can increase traction, allowing you to put the increased power down more effectively.

​

5. Weight Reduction​

• Remove Non-Essential Weight: Reducing the car’s weight can improve acceleration and overall performance. You can remove or replace items like the spare tire, sound deadening, and rear seats. Lightweight racing seats or carbon fiber body panels (e.g., hood, trunk, doors) can shave off significant weight.
• Lightweight Battery: Replace the stock battery with a lightweight lithium-ion battery. These batteries can reduce weight and improve overall performance.

​

6. Aerodynamics​

• Front Splitter or Lip Spoiler: Adding an aftermarket splitter or lip spoiler can improve downforce at high speeds, providing better stability and grip.
• Rear Spoiler: A subtle rear spoiler can help with aerodynamics and keep the rear of the car more planted at higher speeds.
• Lowering the Car: Lowering the car can reduce drag and improve handling, especially at high speeds.

​

7. Brake System Upgrades​

• Larger Brakes: With an increase in performance, you’ll need better braking to keep up. Upgrading to larger, vented, or slotted brake rotors and high-performance pads can improve stopping power.
• Big Brake Kits (BBK): If you're going all-out on performance, installing a big brake kit from a company like Brembo or AP Racing will provide superior stopping power, helping with high-speed driving and track days.

​

8. Regular Maintenance​

• Keep It Tuned: Ensuring your car is always properly tuned, with clean spark plugs, oil, filters, and fluids, is essential for maximizing performance.
• Cooling System: An upgraded radiator or additional cooling components can help ensure the engine stays cool under higher performance loads, which can prevent overheating or engine damage.

​

9. Optional: Engine Swap​

• If you want to go really wild, an engine swap to a more modern Mercedes engine could be a major performance boost. For example, swapping in the M113 5.4L V8 or even a turbocharged engine from the AMG lineup would add a lot of power and modern reliability. However, this is a significant and costly modification that requires heavy modification to mounts, wiring, and supporting systems.

---

​

Some General Tips:​

• Start with the Basics: Focus on tuning, exhaust, intake, and suspension first. These can provide noticeable improvements without requiring a full engine overhaul.
• Balance: Don't just focus on power — improving braking, suspension, and weight distribution is key to maintaining the car's balance and keeping it safe at higher speeds.
• Keep it OEM-Style: Since it's a classic, you might want to keep modifications tasteful to preserve its classic appeal while still improving performance.

Is there a specific performance target you're aiming for, like a certain horsepower or acceleration time? Or are you just looking to make it more fun to drive?

I really think this strategy to make w124 E500E faster that will have real impact all while keeping Engine totally stock:

1) 8hp45 transmission swap with Turbolamik TCU analog speed rpm torque senors fro MAP and TPS.
2) Carbon fiber driveshaft.
3) 3.27 rear gears

I bet this knocks off 1 sec. 0-60 and probably 1.5 sec. faster quarter mile.
722.3 and stock driveshaft is probably 20% drive train loss of power.
8hp45 with carbon fiber driveshafe will probably reduce this to 7% drive train loss of power and 200 millisec shifts!
ZF 8HP45 transmission has the following gear ratios: 1st: 4.714, 2nd: 3.143, 3rd: 2.106, 4th: 1.667, 5th: 1.285, 6th: 1.000, 7th: 0.839, 8th: 0.667

4) electric fan from late model w210 or w211.

This really works. I have seen buddies add 10 hp from this on the dyno.

 

[gsxr]

4) electric fan from late model w210 or w211.
This really works. I have seen buddies add 10 hp from this on the dyno.

This sort of works. The OE/OEM Sachs/Horton M119 viscous fan clutch disengages above 3500rpm, so there's no power gain at high revs with the fan deleted. There will be some power gain at lower RPM's but it's not much. Now, for anyone using an aftermarket clutch that remains engaged to redline, yes... switching to an electric fan will add a little power. (There's a LOT of other benefits from converting to a factory PWM fan with aftermarket controller, the slight power gain is just a bonus.)

I really think this strategy to make w124 E500E faster that will have real impact all while keeping Engine totally stock:

1) 8hp45 transmission swap with Turbolamik TCU analog speed rpm torque senors fro MAP and TPS.
2) Carbon fiber driveshaft.
3) 3.27 rear gears

I bet this knocks off 1 sec. 0-60 and probably 1.5 sec. faster quarter mile.
722.3 and stock driveshaft is probably 20% drive train loss of power.
8hp45 with carbon fiber driveshafe will probably reduce this to 7% drive train loss of power and 200 millisec shifts!
ZF 8HP45 transmission has the following gear ratios: 1st: 4.714, 2nd: 3.143, 3rd: 2.106, 4th: 1.667, 5th: 1.285, 6th: 1.000, 7th: 0.839, 8th: 0.667

For straight-line acceleration only, the biggest change comes from gearing. Switching to 3.27 gears (from stock 2.82) might improve the quarter mile ET by maybe 0.50-0.75 seconds, with no other changes. The carbon driveshaft would provide very little benefit since the stock driveshaft is already fairly lightweight, and I don't know if any place would make a 2-piece carbon driveshaft... the ROI on this would be really poor. Probably thousands of dollars to get ET gains of less than 1 tenth.

The 8-speed transmission gearing may help additionally, on top of the rear axle change, assuming no wheelspin. Shift speed really doesn't make a big difference in ET though. The 722.3 may not shift rapidly, but there is no interruption of acceleration during shifting, so faster shifts don't translate into substantially quicker ET's. Maybe a tenth of a second, if that?

Regardless, all of the above wouldn't add up to 1.5 seconds in the quarter (or 1.0 to 60mph). This wouldn't overcome the weight (4000 lbs) and relatively low power (322hp) and drop 1/4 mile times from a best of ~14.0 all the way down to 12.5 seconds. Note this would only affect ET, the trap speed would remain nearly unchanged at ~100mph or so. 0-60 times might improve by 0.50-0.75 sec or so, again this would be traction dependent... might just have ASR engaging (or, tire spinning if ASR is turned off).

 

[TerryA]

@yao500e,
Most of the go faster E500E has been discussed more than once on this forum. GSXR and Mrs GSXR are about the only ones who actually has drag racing time slips for many years and has wrung every last tenth out of the M119. Mrs GSXR’s Renntech 400E 6.0 has time slips at different strips with low 12s ETs and that’s at an additional cost of $25K to $30K (Not to Dave or the Mrs).

Why spend all this money experimenting on an E500E to get a 1.5 second better ET? There are proven methods to do this already. If you want to spend a lot of dough take it to Jono or Renntech and make it a 6.0 motor, OR just buy a newer version M113 E500 like Gerry has OR find a Renntech car for sale somewhere.

 

[sheward]

Many years back, a local 036 owner tried changing rear end gearing and if I recall correctly, he saw little worthwhile results and this of course reduced top speed. All his work was tested at the dragstrip. This was done with the stock 4 speed transmission. I have zero real world testing experience but believe that the available very wide torque curve makes gearing less influential on the 036.

What DID make a significant difference in performance was cutting the cast intake manifold to separate the intake tubes for better charge cooling. A phenolic or specialized material intake might show good gains and modern design for power seems to support that. No cheap or easy feat to accomplish.

 

[gsxr]

Many years back, a local 036 owner tried changing rear end gearing and if I recall correctly, he saw little worthwhile results and this of course reduced top speed. All his work was tested at the dragstrip. This was done with the stock 4 speed transmission. I have zero real world testing experience but believe that the available very wide torque curve makes gearing less influential on the 036.

I'd love to know details of the results. I plan to try a 3.06 diff eventually, to see how much difference there is at the dragstrip.

I have a lot of data with taller gears (2.65), this slowed the car about 3-4 tenths in the 1/4 mile. I don't know if there will be an equivalent improvement of 3-4 tenths quicker with the 3.06 gears. I think there could be.

What DID make a significant difference in performance was cutting the cast intake manifold to separate the intake tubes for better charge cooling. A phenolic or specialized material intake might show good gains and modern design for power seems to support that. No cheap or easy feat to accomplish.

I remember that thread on 500Ecstasy! Sadly, he got offended by some comments (which were not derogatory) and he stopped posting. He might have even deleted his posts with the information about what he did. I recall he did a lot of cutting / grinding on the intake to isolate the runners, theoretically cooling the intake slightly. I don't recall any dyno data or dragstrip numbers from this intake modification though. Real bummer that the guy (Benny?) who bought the 500Ecstasy content from Scott never did anything with it (i.e., never made the old site content publicly available).

 

[sheward]

His name was Rich. He owned a shop here in Atlanta and was quite experienced with W124 Mercedes. He owned a rare white car when we met. He did test his mods at the dragstrip and was not one to exaggerate although he was concerned with keeping his discoveries private.

I had seen the work he did on the intake and drove his car with it and a gear change however I was too new to the 036 world to recount the effect. He used a die grinder over the course of a week or so to work the intake and had to weld a couple spots where things got too thin.

Your memory is correct; he did post some of the information but removed it shortly after when that was still possible. It would be interesting to see more of the 500Ecstasy content and follow our learning curve.

 

[gerryvz]

Perhaps someone could contact Benny again and see if he would let the hard drive with the 500Ecstasy information (at least, the database) go.

It would be very very simple and fast to import that information onto this forum, and would preserve the dates and such from the original posts.

 

[yao500e]

@yao500e,
Most of the go faster E500E has been discussed more than once on this forum. GSXR and Mrs GSXR are about the only ones who actually has drag racing time slips for many years and has wrung every last tenth out of the M119. Mrs GSXR’s Renntech 400E 6.0 has time slips at different strips with low 12s ETs and that’s at an additional cost of $25K to $30K (Not to Dave or the Mrs).

Why spend all this money experimenting on an E500E to get a 1.5 second better ET? There are proven methods to do this already. If you want to spend a lot of dough take it to Jono or Renntech and make it a 6.0 motor, OR just buy a newer version M113 E500 like Gerry has OR find a Renntech car for sale somewhere.

definitely agree. to max. the e500e for quarter mile times, you'll sacrifice a lot of daily driving comforts.

All i know is that a buddy of mine installed a 8hp45 transmission in to his year 1995 e36 M3 240hp stock. He had a ZF4hp 4 speed previously. The car TOTALLY TRANSFORMED. Fast as lighting, wheels chirping from 1, 2, 3 gears. I bet it would do the same for the e500e! wake the car up.

 

[yao500e]

This sort of works. The OE/OEM Sachs/Horton M119 viscous fan clutch disengages above 3500rpm, so there's no power gain at high revs with the fan deleted. There will be some power gain at lower RPM's but it's not much. Now, for anyone using an aftermarket clutch that remains engaged to redline, yes... switching to an electric fan will add a little power. (There's a LOT of other benefits from converting to a factory PWM fan with aftermarket controller, the slight power gain is just a bonus.)



For straight-line acceleration only, the biggest change comes from gearing. Switching to 3.27 gears (from stock 2.82) might improve the quarter mile ET by maybe 0.50-0.75 seconds, with no other changes. The carbon driveshaft would provide very little benefit since the stock driveshaft is already fairly lightweight, and I don't know if any place would make a 2-piece carbon driveshaft... the ROI on this would be really poor. Probably thousands of dollars to get ET gains of less than 1 tenth.

The 8-speed transmission gearing may help additionally, on top of the rear axle change, assuming no wheelspin. Shift speed really doesn't make a big difference in ET though. The 722.3 may not shift rapidly, but there is no interruption of acceleration during shifting, so faster shifts don't translate into substantially quicker ET's. Maybe a tenth of a second, if that?

Regardless, all of the above wouldn't add up to 1.5 seconds in the quarter (or 1.0 to 60mph). This wouldn't overcome the weight (4000 lbs) and relatively low power (322hp) and drop 1/4 mile times from a best of ~14.0 all the way down to 12.5 seconds. Note this would only affect ET, the trap speed would remain nearly unchanged at ~100mph or so. 0-60 times might improve by 0.50-0.75 sec or so, again this would be traction dependent... might just have ASR engaging (or, tire spinning if ASR is turned off).

since you are the expert at the drag racing for the e500e, i'll definitely take your assessment here!

 

[Klink]

His name was Rich. He owned a shop here in Atlanta and was quite experienced with W124 Mercedes. He owned a rare white car when we met. He did test his mods at the dragstrip and was not one to exaggerate although he was concerned with keeping his discoveries private.

I had seen the work he did on the intake and drove his car with it and a gear change however I was too new to the 036 world to recount the effect. He used a die grinder over the course of a week or so to work the intake and had to weld a couple spots where things got too thin.

Your memory is correct; he did post some of the information but removed it shortly after when that was still possible. It would be interesting to see more of the 500Ecstasy content and follow our learning curve.

You are referring to Richie Koerner. I haven't talked to him in at least a decade, but we were on good terms. His brother worked with us at RBM of ATL BITD. If I can find him I'll ask him about this.