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EZL copying
- Thread starter samiam44
- Start date
AFAIK, it's not possible, but I'm not certain. The EZL is a sealed unit and even if you did open it, I'm not sure there is any removabl EPROM inside to be copied. Repairing existing units is a different story, but again that is questionable too. It's very different than the LH module which you can open up and play with the circuit boards inside.
I think it should be possible somehow... (matter of cost and time). The ignition mapping has to be stored somewhere inside that thing, so in theory someone could copy this stored Data.... In Germany there are companies repairing/reprogramming EZLs even for V8s.
The EZLs from the G-Class usually had programmable EZLs throughout (thats a often repeated rumor in german forums), dunno if the 500G with M119 also had one?
And if anyone would know our exact stock ignition maps, someone could buy this EZL-Tuning Programm for those Porsche 9xx and rewrite a Porsche V8 EZL with it, making our connectors with knock sensors and stuff fit the Porsche EZL, make the Canbus communication working and we would be good to go (in theory). Or hoping that guy reprogramms the Porsche EZL-Tuner so it will work with our M119 V8 EZLs.
The EZLs from the G-Class usually had programmable EZLs throughout (thats a often repeated rumor in german forums), dunno if the 500G with M119 also had one?
And if anyone would know our exact stock ignition maps, someone could buy this EZL-Tuning Programm for those Porsche 9xx and rewrite a Porsche V8 EZL with it, making our connectors with knock sensors and stuff fit the Porsche EZL, make the Canbus communication working and we would be good to go (in theory). Or hoping that guy reprogramms the Porsche EZL-Tuner so it will work with our M119 V8 EZLs.
I just asked as Gerry mentioned MB now only sells on for the M119 5.0 liters and before their were different maps for S, SL, and E's. Wonder if the if there was 1 HWA for all bodies or if they were different too=)
Just thinking that if my 124 one died, get a used S or SL and just have it re-programmed to the old map.
Michael
Just thinking that if my 124 one died, get a used S or SL and just have it re-programmed to the old map.
Michael
Just so you know - the EZL is in and of itself a small form-factor microcomputer, very similar in structure and capability to a personal computer. It has memory, a microprocessor, an embedded real-time operating system (RTOS) and various input/output channels.
Cheers,
Gerry
Cheers,
Gerry
The S, SL, and E all shared the same EZLs and same ignition maps, from start of production. They were not different between chassis types. Each model year (approximately) got a new/updated EZL but again, this was used across all chassis, same maps. All 5.0 EZL's supercede to a single p/n, which was used for all 94-95 models S, SL, E. (Note: this is NOT true for the 4.2L, which use different EZL's for different years/engines, although they are still the same across chassis).
The same AMG EZL (HWA-124-545-06-32) is specified for both the E60 and SL60, but oddly the S60 appears to use the normal 5.0L EZL... although this could be an EPC error. Only way to know for sure is to find a genuine S60 with code 957 in the datacard and see what EZL is installed. AFAIK, the AMG EZL is NLA and likely superceded to the standard 5.0 EZL part number.
i contacted with local MB AMG, 8 month ago,, they called me after around 8 days and says all (91-95 E/S/SL V8 EZLs) including AMGs,
are replaced to only "2" numbers:
1) Seimens #: 015 545 61 32 ($3670) mostly available
2) Bosch #: 015 545 62 32 ($3580) N/available
* some of experience guys said the Seimens (61 32) is better than Bosch (62 32),, but im not sure about that.......?!!?
ZAYED,,
are replaced to only "2" numbers:
1) Seimens #: 015 545 61 32 ($3670) mostly available
2) Bosch #: 015 545 62 32 ($3580) N/available
* some of experience guys said the Seimens (61 32) is better than Bosch (62 32),, but im not sure about that.......?!!?
ZAYED,,
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Can I ask where you got your information on the ignition maps being identical between all 5-liter M119/LH EZLs, Dave? Is this DEFINITIVE information?
Everything I have heard (and this includes discussions with knowledgeable people just a few weeks ago when I was in Europe) indicates that there were differences between 500E / E500 EZLs (of which there were several part numbers over the years) and those used with other 5-liter M119/LH engines used in other chassis like the W/C140 and R129.
Secondly, if they were identical parts, why would MB have used E500E-specific part numbers for the .036, and had other EZL part numbers for the other chassis' motors? The fact is, they would have just used the same parts (and numbers). The fact there were different numbers indicates that there were differences in the parts, and like I said this was confirmed with conversations I've had with MB industry types.
I'm going to put in an enquiry with my contact at the MB Classic Center in Fellbach, and my other contact at the MB Archive in Untertuerkheim, and see what they have to say about this.
I am in total agreement that all former 5-liter M119/LH EZLs have been superseded for all chassis down to the part numbers that Zayed shows. But this has been done mainly for the sake of MB not having to stock/support a variety of small variants on the same part, because MB knows that the current EZL will run any of the engines even if it is not optimized for all of them.
Cheers,
Gerry
Everything I have heard (and this includes discussions with knowledgeable people just a few weeks ago when I was in Europe) indicates that there were differences between 500E / E500 EZLs (of which there were several part numbers over the years) and those used with other 5-liter M119/LH engines used in other chassis like the W/C140 and R129.
Secondly, if they were identical parts, why would MB have used E500E-specific part numbers for the .036, and had other EZL part numbers for the other chassis' motors? The fact is, they would have just used the same parts (and numbers). The fact there were different numbers indicates that there were differences in the parts, and like I said this was confirmed with conversations I've had with MB industry types.
I'm going to put in an enquiry with my contact at the MB Classic Center in Fellbach, and my other contact at the MB Archive in Untertuerkheim, and see what they have to say about this.
I am in total agreement that all former 5-liter M119/LH EZLs have been superseded for all chassis down to the part numbers that Zayed shows. But this has been done mainly for the sake of MB not having to stock/support a variety of small variants on the same part, because MB knows that the current EZL will run any of the engines even if it is not optimized for all of them.
Cheers,
Gerry
Since all small-deck 5.0 M119s are practically identical (yes i know later ones supposedly got a little "better" camshafts to deal with WOT-enrichment discontinuation), why would there be a need for entirely different ignition maps?
Even the most 6.0L Tuner cars used the 5.0 EZL and even retarded the ignition-maps with a "3" Plug, so this tells me the EZL is pretty much "optimized" or has very sharp ignition angles.
But since no-one of us will possibly ever see the ignition-maps black-on-white on paper, this all remains speculation.
Even the most 6.0L Tuner cars used the 5.0 EZL and even retarded the ignition-maps with a "3" Plug, so this tells me the EZL is pretty much "optimized" or has very sharp ignition angles.
But since no-one of us will possibly ever see the ignition-maps black-on-white on paper, this all remains speculation.
Gerry, my info is based on the EPC data, which shows the same EZL's used worldwide for all chassis with the M119.97x engines (124, 129, 140). They all have the same original part numbers superceding to the newest p/n, they did not have all different original p/n's which later combined to a single one.
I think someone may have gotten this confused with the LH modules, which are indeed different for every chassis, engine, region, etc... there are a zillion variations of the LH's, but only the same few EZL's used worldwide.
Bottom line - I don't believe there are different ignition maps for different chassis, and have never heard this suggestion prior to this thread.
I think someone may have gotten this confused with the LH modules, which are indeed different for every chassis, engine, region, etc... there are a zillion variations of the LH's, but only the same few EZL's used worldwide.
Bottom line - I don't believe there are different ignition maps for different chassis, and have never heard this suggestion prior to this thread.
Does the EPC always list all previous part numbers that supersede into a current part number?
I had this exact discussion with Marc van de Velde in Belgium because I was looking for the EZLs in both of his wrecked 036s to bring home as a spare. Both had been removed and I mentioned to him that current EPC supersedes all of them into one part for all 5.0/119/LH motors. He said to me at that time they were different for the 036 than for the sedans and roadsters, confirming what I had already thought to be true.
I have also been told by a couple of friends that generally speaking, the Siemens-branded EZLs are better (last longer) than the Bosch-branded ones (at least for the .036) and I should always try to get a Siemens unit in the future, not a Bosch unit if possible. Of course this is heresay, but it's what I've heard independently from a couple of different people who would be in a position to know.
I had this exact discussion with Marc van de Velde in Belgium because I was looking for the EZLs in both of his wrecked 036s to bring home as a spare. Both had been removed and I mentioned to him that current EPC supersedes all of them into one part for all 5.0/119/LH motors. He said to me at that time they were different for the 036 than for the sedans and roadsters, confirming what I had already thought to be true.
I have also been told by a couple of friends that generally speaking, the Siemens-branded EZLs are better (last longer) than the Bosch-branded ones (at least for the .036) and I should always try to get a Siemens unit in the future, not a Bosch unit if possible. Of course this is heresay, but it's what I've heard independently from a couple of different people who would be in a position to know.
Of course the 500E LH & EZL are the best between all M119s, i tried the 500E LH & EZL in the W124/W140/R129 E420/S500/SL500, you
can definately feel the difference, but always be sure, to get an Excellent results, LH & EZL should swapping together, not
separetaly, no any difference if swap the LH or EZL alone..........
ZAYED,,
can definately feel the difference, but always be sure, to get an Excellent results, LH & EZL should swapping together, not
separetaly, no any difference if swap the LH or EZL alone..........
ZAYED,,
No, not always - at least not in the latest version of the EPC. However it's usually apparent when this happens; as only a single part number generally appears in the (current) EPC. The LH modules are a good example of this, the EPC only shows one part number for '92. However, there was a string of earlier part numbers, which I was able to obtain from an older version of the EPC (screen shots are on my website here). This scenario doesn't exist with the EZL's, the EPC shows the complete supercession string for all 119.97x chassis.
I'm sorry, but I believe Marc is incorrect. He could easily prove me wrong by providing a photo of a 5.0L 119.97x EZL which has a clearly readable part number that does not exist in the EPC. Can ANYONE show me a 129 or 140 chassis, with 119.97x 5.0L engine, that has an EZL that is not in the EPC?
This I generally agree with, although I have seen very few Bosch units, ever. I think that Siemens supplied the vast majority of the EZL's from ~1991 or so through 1995.
I doubt that what you say is true.
My WIS Data shows equal Ignition-Angles aswell as injection times for all 5.0L M119.97x, no matter if in W140, W124, R129. Only difference is WOT-Enrichment which the earlier ones have and later ones not.
So the Modules and EZLs should be basically "equal" power-wise for all 5.0L M119 with LH, with the only exception that WOT-Enrichment.
Agreed. FWIW, I did some back-to-back testing at the dragstrip in my wife's '92 500E which has the "earliest" EZL... I plugged in the "latest" EZL, and there was zero change in power/performance. I was going to do dyno testing as well but I probably won't bother, since there was no detectable difference. Even if there was as little as 5hp (gain OR loss), it would have shown up on the timeslips, but nope... nothing.
Also of interest is that RENNtech used whatever 5.0L EZL originally came in the car, i.e. they did not install a specific part number EZL in their 6.0L cars: Jerry's (92) 6.0 has the 013- EZL, another '92 6.0 I know of also has the 013-, and Michael's (93) 6.0 has the 014-. If there was some substantial difference in timing maps, I'm sure Hartmut would have used the specific EZL was the best for power production (and charged the customer accordingly!), but so far there's no evidence of that.
If you want power gains, the '92 LH module is the primary method to achive this, along with anything that would improve airflow (camshafts, porting/polishing, Extrude Hone, etc). The ROI gets pretty slim for the latter items though - high cost, relatively minimal gains. Then of course there's NOS... which Gerry has hinted really makes you popular with the ladies...
Also of interest is that RENNtech used whatever 5.0L EZL originally came in the car, i.e. they did not install a specific part number EZL in their 6.0L cars: Jerry's (92) 6.0 has the 013- EZL, another '92 6.0 I know of also has the 013-, and Michael's (93) 6.0 has the 014-. If there was some substantial difference in timing maps, I'm sure Hartmut would have used the specific EZL was the best for power production (and charged the customer accordingly!), but so far there's no evidence of that.
If you want power gains, the '92 LH module is the primary method to achive this, along with anything that would improve airflow (camshafts, porting/polishing, Extrude Hone, etc). The ROI gets pretty slim for the latter items though - high cost, relatively minimal gains. Then of course there's NOS... which Gerry has hinted really makes you popular with the ladies...
Customizable = zero on both. You can select different timing maps from the 7 or 8 which are embedded, but that's it. All (M119) USA models come pre-set for max power & fuel economy (i.e., max timing advance, premium fuel required). Sounds like the M117 in question just had the wrong timing map selected.
Sure your right about equally power for all 5.0 M119 Chris.,, but if you notice the (LH 17 32) is specially for 500E combines with (64 32),
why MB specifically choose LH 17 32 only for 500E and shared all other numbers for W140 & R129, just swap (LH 17 32 & EZL 64 32) to
any W140 or R129 5.0L and see....
ZAYED,,
why MB specifically choose LH 17 32 only for 500E and shared all other numbers for W140 & R129, just swap (LH 17 32 & EZL 64 32) to
any W140 or R129 5.0L and see....
ZAYED,,
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LH module 014-545-17-32 is a 1992 500E module with WOT enrichment and yes, it was only for the 124 chassis.
EZL 013-545-64-32 was used roughly during 1992 production on late 92 and possibly early 93 M119.97x models in various chassis.
The EZL makes no power difference; the LH will make some power but only due to the WOT enrichment. It's also possible that some perceived power increase was noticed due to the LH module adaptation process; it takes a while for an LH module to adapt to a different engine. It's theoretically possible that the 'new' module swapped in was initially set richer, but later adapted leaner.
EZL 013-545-64-32 was used roughly during 1992 production on late 92 and possibly early 93 M119.97x models in various chassis.
The EZL makes no power difference; the LH will make some power but only due to the WOT enrichment. It's also possible that some perceived power increase was noticed due to the LH module adaptation process; it takes a while for an LH module to adapt to a different engine. It's theoretically possible that the 'new' module swapped in was initially set richer, but later adapted leaner.
LH module 014-545-17-32 is a 1992 500E module with WOT enrichment and yes, it was only for the 124 chassis.
It's also possible that some perceived power increase was noticed due to the LH module adaptation process
Exactly, thats what i meant......
ZAYED,,
So what is the end result of this thread?
Are all M119 EZL's effectively the same?
Which EZL part #'s (new and old) can be used on 500E's?
Are all M119 EZL's effectively the same?
Which EZL part #'s (new and old) can be used on 500E's?
There are EZLs that are model-specific for M119 equipped cars, yes.
Either 015 545 62 32 or 015 545 61 32 are the current numbers (really the 61 32 number is the current correct part number) for our E500Es, as well as M119 cars of the R129 (SL500/500SL) and W140 (S-class coupes & sedans) variety. My own early 1994 model year E500 did come with an EZL of the 62 32 part number. You can see that it was manufactured in the 27th week of 1993, probably sometime in late July of that year.
It's generally accepted that the 015 545 62 32 EZLs were manufactured by Bosch, and are not as reliable overall as the 015 545 61 32 EZLs, which are manufactured by Siemens.
However, there is at least one specific EZL part number that was specific to the M119-based W & C140s -- that part number is 013 545 64 32. Interestingly though, the above 61 32 and 62 32 part numbers are ALSO specified for these W/C140 cars, but the 140-specific number IS NOT specified for the W124.036 nor the R129 cars.
Another model-specific EZL series was the 007 545 69 32 / 010 545 40 32 / 012 545 57 32 units, all of which were specifically specified ONLY for the R129 500SL/ SL500.
Cheers,
Gerry
Either 015 545 62 32 or 015 545 61 32 are the current numbers (really the 61 32 number is the current correct part number) for our E500Es, as well as M119 cars of the R129 (SL500/500SL) and W140 (S-class coupes & sedans) variety. My own early 1994 model year E500 did come with an EZL of the 62 32 part number. You can see that it was manufactured in the 27th week of 1993, probably sometime in late July of that year.
It's generally accepted that the 015 545 62 32 EZLs were manufactured by Bosch, and are not as reliable overall as the 015 545 61 32 EZLs, which are manufactured by Siemens.
However, there is at least one specific EZL part number that was specific to the M119-based W & C140s -- that part number is 013 545 64 32. Interestingly though, the above 61 32 and 62 32 part numbers are ALSO specified for these W/C140 cars, but the 140-specific number IS NOT specified for the W124.036 nor the R129 cars.
Another model-specific EZL series was the 007 545 69 32 / 010 545 40 32 / 012 545 57 32 units, all of which were specifically specified ONLY for the R129 500SL
Cheers,
Gerry
Attachments
This is not true, as I already stated above.
See attached image. Part number 013-545-64-32 IS SPECIFIED FOR THE 124.036 CHASSIS. Ask people with late 92 and early 93 500E's to go take a photo of the original, date-coded EZL in their car. 013-545-64-32 is what you'll get, worldwide. Same for the W140 with 5.0L engine.Yes, this is because those EZL's are designed for the mechanial CIS-injected 119.960 engine, which was only used in the 1990-1992 500SL. Different engine management systems will have different EZL's.
Attachments
Dave, I should have qualified my statement by saying that it's what the EPC currently shows. If you do a Part search on the EPC with the number 013 545 64 32, it only comes up for the W/C140. I didn't say that it didn't appear on the early 036, all I said was that it was specified for the W/C140 and the EPC backs this up. The 036 is not listed as an application when you call it up in the EPC.
See attached images.
You are correct for the other numbers I mentioned with regard to the chassis numbers being [early] CIS-E engine EZLs. I didn't delve into the model numbers to identify that and I should have.
So now the question is why would the current EPC only list the 013 number as applicable for the W140, when your "dinosaur" EPC lists same EZL as superceding to the more current 61 32 and 62 32 numbers which as we know are used in model year 1994 (including my own car) and as a spare part for the 036?
Cheers,
Gerry
See attached images.
You are correct for the other numbers I mentioned with regard to the chassis numbers being [early] CIS-E engine EZLs. I didn't delve into the model numbers to identify that and I should have.
So now the question is why would the current EPC only list the 013 number as applicable for the W140, when your "dinosaur" EPC lists same EZL as superceding to the more current 61 32 and 62 32 numbers which as we know are used in model year 1994 (including my own car) and as a spare part for the 036?
Cheers,
Gerry
Attachments
![CropperCapture[5].jpg](/forums/data/attachments/3/3789-745b93a48e9af872418660132054c182.jpg?hash=dFuTpI6a-H)
![CropperCapture[6].jpg](/forums/data/attachments/3/3790-1addf8c3423251cd277d9d3d5ed77837.jpg?hash=Gt34w0IyUc)
Gerry, this is what I've been trying to clarify:
The older EPC does indicate the early part numbers for the 124.036 chassis. However in the newest versions of the EPC, this older supercession data is removed, and the EPC-Net only shows the current orderable part numbers (015-). You can't buy the 012-, 013-, or 014- EZL's anymore as they have been out of production for nearly two decades.
This DOES NOT MEAN than the older 012-, 013-, and 014- EZL's are not factory specified, nor factory fitment, on the 124.036 chassis (or W140/R129).
Remember that the EPC is not an original BOM (Bill Of Materials) listing what the car was originally built with! It is designed to show replacement parts that you can buy from MB. Sometimes the EPC will include the supercession data (listing the older part numbers), sometimes it does not, sometimes the data was there but is removed with a newer version of the EPC (as in this particular case). There were several different EZL's used and the same part numbers were used on all three M119 chassis (124, 129, 140) but the newest EPC only shows the current (015-) part number.
And again, there is absoultely no evidence that chassis-specific EZL part numbers were used, i.e. the W140 or R129 using different EZL's for the same model year compared to the W124.
The older EPC does indicate the early part numbers for the 124.036 chassis. However in the newest versions of the EPC, this older supercession data is removed, and the EPC-Net only shows the current orderable part numbers (015-). You can't buy the 012-, 013-, or 014- EZL's anymore as they have been out of production for nearly two decades.
This DOES NOT MEAN than the older 012-, 013-, and 014- EZL's are not factory specified, nor factory fitment, on the 124.036 chassis (or W140/R129).
Remember that the EPC is not an original BOM (Bill Of Materials) listing what the car was originally built with! It is designed to show replacement parts that you can buy from MB. Sometimes the EPC will include the supercession data (listing the older part numbers), sometimes it does not, sometimes the data was there but is removed with a newer version of the EPC (as in this particular case). There were several different EZL's used and the same part numbers were used on all three M119 chassis (124, 129, 140) but the newest EPC only shows the current (015-) part number.
And again, there is absoultely no evidence that chassis-specific EZL part numbers were used, i.e. the W140 or R129 using different EZL's for the same model year compared to the W124.
Yup. One of my cars came with this from the factory.
Would love to have some 1992/1993 500E owners chime in with the EZL part number currently in their car, along with the build month/year (from tag in driver door jamb).
Hi, if anyone spend some time reading the *500E* Bible Service 124 036(500E) as it says on the outside.
Inside the chapter concerning the EZL/AKR E lekronische Z ynd L inienverstellung/A nti K lopf R egelung
You will learn the true story of the Allmighty Conductor of the Electronic system on LH-Engines.
As Gerry say, various in/outputs as, crankposition, camposition, inletpressure, R16/2 plug, gearbox overloadprotector, antiknocksensors, CAN connection w. LH, E-gas, ABS/ASR ECU's Out goes ign.timing signal to the coils, wich is amplified,
engine rpm signal, injection timingsequence to LH and to the Diagnose plug X11/4, Forgot, watertemp. via CAN from LH box.
I say the simplest task for the EZL is to amplifie the signal to the coils, and maybe that is what goes wrong when they fail.
So having yours sent for restoring it or when you buy a reconditioned one, I belive that is what you pay for.
Now it must be clear this is not the thing you tamper with do not even *finger* it. As we have learned, not even BRABUS or
the lesser tuning companies did have Their OWN made for them, so complicated is that thing and obviously you can not programm it better.
About the Siemens 013 545 64 32, I have two right here on my desk, one of wich came from the S60 my E60LH engine was installed in, '92 the other is a spare from a '93 in my 500E '92 is of same # two of my friends w. 500E '92 and '95 are driving exactly the same units,,Roger
014-545-43-32 - What did this one come from?
A 124.036 !!
Dave's attachment in the post above (http://500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?1520-EZL-copying&p=11520&viewfull=1#post11520) shows that it is a previously superseded number but is standard and appropriate for the 124.036, and depending on the date of your car would have come from the factory with this EZL.
Cheers,
Gerry
Cheers,
Gerry
What Gerry said above. The 014- EZL's were used from approximately late 1992 model year through late 1993 model year 500E's (and also 500SEL/500SL).
8/92 build, 1993 model. 014 545 43 32
Thank you, Drew (sheward) and Allgonquin for sharing what you found under your hoods!
Dave, did you notice? I know of one early '92 one late '91 w 92 m.y one '95 and also that Yellow '94, remember?
all of them now has 013 545 64 32. As a sidenote, the '95 was bought w. one reconditioned unit w. R129 originated p# in it, a couple of years ago it only worked 4cyl, it did last for 5-6 years, do not remember from where it was ordered. I have got two spares one of my fellows have got one spare unit, they all are of the 013 545 64 32 kind, they originated from '92 and '93 500E's Roger
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02/93 build - 014 545 43 32 (Siemens)
I was surprised I didn't find it in my 2008.01 EPC. Now it makes sense, but I don't like that MB removed this information from the EPC. It makes it a lot more complicated!
I was surprised I didn't find it in my 2008.01 EPC. Now it makes sense, but I don't like that MB removed this information from the EPC. It makes it a lot more complicated!
