Facelift to 94 or Keep Original?

[AMGTesTDriverNJ]

Recently purchased a 92 and I'm debating whether or not update the look of the car or keep it original. When it comes to modifications I'm pretty picky so if I update it will done properly and w/ attention to detail.

This car is in good cosmetic shape, with some minor blemishes in the paint but no rust, however, the top surfaces of the car have faded due to spending a majority of its life under a Texas sun.

I thought maybe an all 1 color vinyl wrap would update the car and keep the integrity of the original paint protected under it. That would also get rid of the difference in color on the top surfaces w/o having to paint.

I also considered trying to find a trunk and hood from another 124 that hasn't faded and swapping them, any thoughts on that?

I just don't know what to do, I want to make this car the best it can be but its hard to make any changes to such a great car...or maybe I'm just a finicky owner! Either way, thanks for anyone's input in advance and I look forward to being a more active part of the community here

 

[gerryvz]

My advice with a car as rare as the .036 is to keep it as it was originally manufactured -- in other words, don't "update" the look (hood, trunk, lights, etc.). It will have more value if it is as originally made, and that includes the color of the car.

Instead of doing band-aids like a vinyl wrap and such, why not just spend the money and get the car painted? You don't have to blow $10K on a paint job -- you can get an excellent paint job for $5-6K and if you remove all of the external items like the head/taillights, door handles, antenna, grill, etc. it will save a lot in labor costs that the painter would otherwise charge you for it.

When it comes time to sell the car, if you ever do, a serious buyer will look at the model year and VIN and will tell immediately that the car has been "updated". Generally this is (whether warranted or not) cause for suspicion ... meaning that a buyer will immediately suspect that the car was hit in the front or rear and "repaired" with "update parts" from a later car. Originality is always best unless you simply don't care about originality -- but that will make the car harder to sell if that time comes for you.

Painting the car in the original color will baseline it (i.e. pristine cosmetics) and make it very attractive.

My two cents.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[2phast]

Facelifting the 500e is a nice upgrade and IMO, shouldn't hurt the value (unless a purist is interested in purchasing your car). Don't expect to find parts that match your paint, even if painted the same color. Colors all fade and fade at different rates depending upon where they are from. You might be able to get away with the color difference, but expect to have your new parts painted. For your hood conversion you need the hood, headlights and headlight trim panels. For the trunk you just need the trunk lid. No body modifications are needed to install the parts. For future reference or resale, document what the car looks like before/after, then you can promptly answer anyones questions when they ask "has it been wrecked".

Stay away from that vinyl wrap stuff, way too cheesy for a classy Mercedes

If you don't want to swap any body parts you can go the route I did. Paint your grill frame body color and paint your trunk lid handle body color. Not quite the same as the 94+ facelift, but it does update the appearance of the car quite a bit.

 

[gerryvz]

Facelifting the 500e is a nice upgrade and IMO, shouldn't hurt the value (unless a purest is interested in purchasing your car).

For future reference or resale, document what the car looks like before/after, then you can promptly answer anyones questions when they ask "has it been wrecked".

Rik, you are off here in your advice. In the future more and more 036 buyers are going to be of the serious/collector type, while the number of "unmolested" 036s dwindles. I can tell you for a fact (as I have owned a number of other collectable MBs including the 6.3, 6.9, and 560SL) that most definitely to a collector / serious owner, an original car without a color change and/or body panel change is always going to be more desirable. It's a fact of life.

So many of these cars have already been modded (mild to wild) that given the ever-decreasing numbers, the price delta between modded and un-modded cars will continue to increase. There is also a clarification/difference that should be highlighted in mods -- "reversible" mods vs. "non-reversible" mods. Meaning things like taillights/headlights/turn signals (which are easily changeable/replaceable) vs. things like decklids and hoods (which are relatively more "permanent" for most owners once done & much more costly to put back).

How many modded cars do you see go for the higher prices (say $18-30K)? I think I have yet to see one with the exception of tuner-modded (yet proper/original) cars such as RENNtech or AMG cars. I'm not against modding (my own car is, well, slightly modded) in the least, but I fully recognize that even the mild mods I've done (and my nitrous system is COMPLETELY reversible with the addition of a new MAF, so that no one wold ever know NOS was even installed) may well negatively affect the car's value in the eyes of a prospective serious buyer. I don't worry about this, though, as I plan to keep my car forever.

As an example of this -- my very moneyed friend Al (with whom you corresponded regarding the C215 you checked out for him in Bellevue) drove in May from Houston to New Braunfels just to check out the white, low-miles 500E that was for sale there. He didn't buy the car in large part because of its "mods" -- mainly the boom-boom stereo and the MB navi system that was funkily bolted to the side of the center console -- even though the car was otherwise low miles and unmolested/stock. Al is a collector and is very typical of the folks who are in the market for nice 036s. I know for sure that he wouldn't even give a facelifted car a second look.

I think your statement about a facelift not affecting value is a bit misleading -- no personal offense intended

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[szvook]

I to prefer to keep the car in its original look, although I did change the grill insert to a style that never came with the car (US version or not) so that one is on me, but the later grill insert looks better on the car and allows for better airflow. As far as the lights, imho if the lights are the Euro versions, they should not be viewed as aftermarket. I changed my turn signals, taillights and headlights to the Euro versions from Hella vs. the OEM ones from Bosh and I very much like the updated lights, especially the headlights which make the car look night and day compared to the stock headlights. If updating the look of a 92’ car to the later models is an interest, updating only the aesthetics is a step backwards, otherwise just get a later model, since there’s quite a bit more between 92’ and later models then just looks.

Fresh paint is all good, especially if it needs it. If selling the car is down the road, I would save all of OEM parts for the exact reasons Gerry listed.

Having said that, I will never sell my car so my changes to my car are gonna stay with me and some of my changes would definitely appeal to most but some might not want bigger brakes, lighter wheels, ICE, 160A Bosch alternator, Ceramic brake pads, Cat-back exhaust, etc.

 

[2phast]

I understand your point Gerry, but I don't think the 500e is going to be any big "collectible". Serious collectors are not interested in these cars and I doubt they ever will. (the E55, C36 or C43 are not collectibles either). The days of sellers getting 30k for a 500e are long gone. Low milage clean examples are going for 15-18k. I will agree that if a owner buys a near perfect example with very low miles that it is best for resale to only make modifications that can easily be reversed, unless of course he wants the car "his way" and is not concerned with resale or collectibility.


Al is not a good example to use, he is "extreme" and anything, even normal "wear and tear" is unacceptable to him. A used car is a used car, so is should be expected to find signs of use.


Every modified car I have sold has sold for more than I bought it for. Same is true with my 500e. I have turned down some high offers on my car, way more than I could expect to get if it was bone stock. Of course the buyers are people like me, not people like Al.

FWIW. I just looked at a 1993 500e a forum member was interested in buying. Silver on grey, SL500 AMG wheels, Renntech ECU chip, FGS, Renntech ASR defeat but other than that, bone stock. 63k on the clock, books records etc. and it passed my inspection with flying colors (few minor issues as to be expected with any used car). Dealer price? $15,500. Prevous owner was trying to sell it for 18k, no takers. He traded it on a Kia Sorento. A face lift wouldn't of affected the price of the car at all.

 

[gerryvz]

If the 6.3 (which is the spiritual father of the 500E) is any guide, not to mention what I've already seen MB Classic doing with regard to the 036, I can tell you that very definitely the 500E is considered collectable and will be considered even more collectable in the future. The 190E 2.3-16/2.5-16/Evo 1 & 2 as well. Every decade of MB has a standout "collectable" model, or two. You are correct though -- cars like the E55, C36 and C43 are not AS collectable, because they were rather diluted (AMG-wise) and really nothing made them "stand out" enough from their civilian brethren. And this is where the 036 differs -- not only was it head and shoulders above its brethren in performance, but the hand-build (by Porsche) and the fact that it was pretty much the fastest sedan of its day seals its fate. Look at the huge delta in 034 and 036 prices if you don't believe me.

I saw a pretty decent BMW M5 (E28) at a Houston show a few weeks ago -- I remember them clearly from back in the day -- back when the "M" actually MEANT "Motorsports" rather than just a performance option badge (kinda like AMG is these days). I can tell you that that car is VERY collectable nowadays. Maybe not to you or me, but they are very desirable.

It's easy to pull out examples of particular 036s that are sold/priced extremely high or low. I and most here have certainly seen $18-20K cars go for $14-16K and we've seen $10K cars go for $15K. Those are anomaly cases where there were other factors at play with the seller or buyer.

I wasn't talking about YOUR modified cars being sold for more than you paid for them. I was talking about medium to heavily modified 036s getting top market dollar. The fact is, they aren't getting the top dollar that unmolested cars are getting -- nowhere near it. I've been watching the market for 10 years and have yet to see this (proven AMG, Brabus, and RENNtech cars excepted). There are very definitely $30K cars out there, perhaps not so many, but more than you would think. Numerous cars have been for sale in the $25K+ range in the past couple of years and have brought well over $20K in final sales price. And to a car, these are low-mileage (below 60K) cars, UNMODIFIED, with all books/papers/provenance. It's all in what a buyer will pay.

This is way off topic, I should break the thread so that poor AMGTestDriverNJ gets a decent discussion relating to his original post.....

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[2phast]

I know you were not specifically talking about my cars, I was using that as a discussion point. Just because someone modifies their car, it does not instantly mean the value has gone down. There are people who lust after unmolested cars and there are people who lust after modified cars. Your case is valid but mine is also. For every purest that wants a bone stock 500e, there is a equal number of people who will purchase one that is modified. I too have seen both sides in the market. The problem with the modified cars is that the owners are trying to recoup their invested cost and that never happens, hence why these cars seem to sit for long periods or never sell (basically they are priced way out of the market and fall into that "crack smoker" catagory).

Your other examples mainly are euro only cars but the 190e 2.3-16 is definately not collectable either. I have seen people ask 10, 15 and even 20k for these cars. Not one of them has sold for that kind of money. Low milage or not, tts a 5-7k car anyway you cut it. Even the 2.5-16 isn't really a collectable. I agree that the EVO's might fall into the collectable catagory but since there are none over here, its hard to say. I have seen EVO II's all over the board from 10k to 40k (Euro) but we don't know if any of these higher priced ones sell or if they just sit indefinately

 

[sheward]

I had thoughts of updating my car as well. After some time and a change to euro lights i decided i liked the two styles equally well. I still collected the trunk, hood and lights and will paint them to match in the future. They are fairly easy to come by.
I also suggest new paint. While you prepare, look for the newer hood/trunk and have them painted with the car. A paint shop would charge very little for this. This choice would leave you with a reversable mod which is the only kind i will do.
I recently painted my grill black and I'm very pleased with the look, although i also like the grill szvook has on the earlier models.

drew

 

[Jelmer]

My suggestion would be: keep it original. I agree with Gerry about the price issue, but that's not the main reason. For me, it's a feeling of pride to own this car, and taking proper care of it. I know that once I'd change one little thing, I'd start changing more and more, to "make it better". And each little mod brings it a step more away from its heritage and its original purpose: a stylish, comfortable, quick saloon car -- in that order.

There aren't that many well-maintained, proper looking ones left, that makes it a museum piece, and it should be (imho) handled and treated accordingly.

In all honesty: I have to admit I secretly do kinda like 2phast's car and, if I have the money, I most certainly will look for an abused and cheap 500E to fiddle around with. Just not with my nearly excellent one

 

[gsxr]

My $0.02:

I prefer the facelift appearance, but I generally would not do this on a 92/93 strictly due to cost. To do it RIGHT will require ~$1k in new sheet metal front & rear (including the grille), plus the late-style tail lights & front turn signals ($300-$400 total?), and another $700 for the correct E500 US-spec headlights (or, $1k for E500 Euro-spec headlights). And another ~$300 for new wiper arms/motors. If you get a used hood/trunk, the up front cost will be less... but it will cost more to for the body shop to prep the used parts, so the savings is less than it might seem (unless you can get near-flawless items locally for cheap). THEN, there's the paint cost, which it sounds like you're stuck with anyway (forget the vinyl wrap idea). Now if you're already in for ~$5k in paint and don't mind the additional $2.5k (approx) for facelift parts, and you really like the facelift appearance - why not?

The points made about resale value have merit, however, you have to ask yourself - "do I care?". If you're plunking down ~$7k for work that will make the car look (externally) like a new E500, and you plan to keep the car for many years (or have no plans to ever sell it)... why worry about resale? It's your car, do whatever you want to make it so that YOU like looking at it & driving it. If you get bored with cars easily and will likely re-sell in a few years, and you want/need to recoup the max possible amount, then Gerry is right - better to keep it as stock as possible, to appeal to a wider audience when the For Sale sign goes up.

For the purists who cringe at the idea of mods, well, at least the facelift is reversible if desired. If you could keep the original parts, that would be great, and would help future resale if that's a concern. Ideally you'd sell the TX 92 and just buy a clean '94 model instead, but that may not be practical...

 

[bing]

ditto GSXR

Setting aside whether you want to keep the car or not, it all comes down to personal taste and how deep is your pocket.

 

[AMGTesTDriverNJ]

I had thoughts of updating my car as well. After some time and a change to euro lights i decided i liked the two styles equally well. I still collected the trunk, hood and lights and will paint them to match in the future. They are fairly easy to come by.
I also suggest new paint. While you prepare, look for the newer hood/trunk and have them painted with the car. A paint shop would charge very little for this. This choice would leave you with a reversable mod which is the only kind i will do.
I recently painted my grill black and I'm very pleased with the look, although i also like the grill szvook has on the earlier models.

drew

Sounds really nice post some pics I'd love to see. As someone who is on their 3rd one of these, how would you a view a good re-spray when going to purchase? Is that an automatic red flag or what?

 

[AMGTesTDriverNJ]

Thanks for your input, its good to have an idea of the price breakdown before hand. What I've taken from this thread is that ultimately what I will do it w/ it mod wise will come down to what my intentions are w/ the car which frankly I haven't decided yet. If I'm going to keep it till the bitter I'm going to go ahead and do what I like to it, but it if not, I'll likely keep it the way it is w/ the exception of a respray at some point. I've got an 02 gixxer telefonica what do you ride?

 

[szvook]

If I'm going to keep it till the bitter I'm going to go ahead and do what I like to it.

The thing is, once you drive one for a while and get a really good feel for the car, parting away from it will be regretful. A few peeps here can attest to that. But there are a few things can change one's mind like a car with problems to begin with, or badly maintained car, this is a hungry V8 so a heavy foot means a lighter wallet. But Man, Oh Man! What a car!

 

[gsxr]

A re-spray is not an automatic red flag... I think a LOT of 500E's have already had a respray at some point. Most likely only garage queens will have original paint which looks great. Both my 500's have had at least a partial re-spray courtesy of previous owners. I wouldn't be surprised if over half of the remaining .036's have already had at least *some* paintwork done.

My main concern when I hear re-spary is, "was it done right?". I would prefer a car with fresh paint that looks factory, rather than a car with original paint that looks bad. But a lousy re-spray (i.e., masking everything instead of removing parts) may hurt resale, at least for picky buyers - depends on the price point you're at.

I used to amatuer race my 97 GSX-R750, which had some nice mods. I sold it when I moved out of state back in 2002; still miss that bike. I then got a 2000.5 Mille RSV-R, which was a pretty nice ride... but I learned that I prefer an inline-4 to a V-twin. I had the Millefor ~7 years or so, but only put about 2kmi on it. I just sold it a few months ago! I'm bikeless at the moment... no time to ride.

 

[gerryvz]

I agree 100% with GSXR, a well-done (quality) paint job in the original color of the car is NOT a red flag. To a collector, of course having original paint in good condition is always preferable to a resprayed car, but as long as the work was done well, it won't really hurt the value of the car at all -- particularly to average owners.

A color change is controversial, whether done right or done poorly. To be really done right, the engine bay and door frames would have to be done, but unfortunately this is so prohibitively expensive that it's not usually done when a color change is done. That said, color changes are often a good thing when a car comes from the factory in a poor color .... but it's only recommended if one is going to keep the car themselves. Color changes (for a serious collector) are more often than not going to be a deal-breaker, UNLESS it was a "cost-no-object" respray where most of the car (and its nooks and crannies) were also resprayed the new color.

GSXR, I'm off on my own bike on a roadtrip tomorrow (Saturday) morning to New Orleans

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Yep - forgot to mention, my comments on a re-spray assumed it was the same color. I'd never change color unless there was some really serious incentive to do so, and then as Gerry said, you gotta do the door jambs, trunk, engine compartment, etc... it gets VERY expensive to do that right. And if you don't do it right, you'll see the old color every time you get in the car (ugh).

However... it would be tempting to change from 199 Pearl Black (very common color) to 009 Sapphire Black (very rare color, used only on the .036 Limiteds, AFAIK).

 

[sheward]

i have owned more than a few specialty cars. My brother has been a collector car dealer pre dating the grey market craze. I can't add anything useful that gerryvz and gsxr havn't said. A good respray can be of better quality than original paint.

Here are a couple of pics of my cars' grill. You can find more variations in "owners and their cars".


dave: I aquired everything in your post locally for under $300! Huge amount of w124s in the Atlanta area.

drew

 

[gsxr]

Drew, that is awesome! Parts availability varies widely... there's no way I'd get that stuff local, it would all have to be shipped in, or I'd have to drive ~500 miles to collect it. Major city areas generally will have much more available though. Congrats on the score!

 

[bmsone7]

Drew,

Your E looks great! I need to replace my grille and headlights. I am in Orlando. Can you pass on your vendor please? I have been struggling with a facelift because I haven't been able to find the 93 parts. I don't want to do it the front of my car is looking really worn. After seeing your fresh new 92/93 look, there is hope for finding these parts.

 

[samiam44]

Well...

I think it's preference. if you keep it early style, euro headlights are $1300!! Update it with a used hood, and you can buy the US-spec E500 headlights for $289/each delivered.. had to purchase one last month.

I HATE the USA sealed-beam headlights.


Michael

 

[sheward]

Thanks, Bryant. Grill is a dealer item. As Micheal said in the post above, 92 / 93 Euro lights are pricey and have to be ordered from Germany. Speed Autoteile (www.speedautoteile.com) should have them.

drew

 

[AMGTesTDriverNJ]

After a few years of relatively carefree enjoyment of this car I've started to experience a little bit of paint flaking at the bottoms of the door panels and the corners of the doors as well.

I just wanted to hear some of your thoughts on keeping the original two tone scheme vs going with a solid color.

I would respray in the original color in either case, but is a two tone job more expensive?

Does anyone have an example of pre facelift that has been resprayed 1 color without any other updates I might see?

I'm also open to suggestions on where I might get the job done in the tri state area if anyone has any input on that.

Thank you!