I need help! warm engine stall and no restart

[newms55]

before we start: The car was running fine despite degraded upper wire harness. in 2014 my wife passed and the car sat for the most part of 6 years. occasionally taking it to gas station or moving around shop. it started running rough and then the abs and asr lights came on and stayed on. so i then replaced the obvious upper harness that was degraded(no change in running performance), it then started to stall when warm and no chance of restart until it is left to cool completely,..then it starts fine and runs until warm again. had the codes read(which was a chore in NC,..no one except dealer had the ability, finally found one guy) I will post pictures of codes read. at this point I have replaced both fuel pumps, filter all 3 coolant temperature sensors, fuel pressure regulator, complete brake job with sensors, cleaned the abs sensors, cleaned the caps and rotors replaced spark plugs and wires, cleaned maf and inspected the throttle body wire harness(looks brand new-might have been previously replaced) and did the start up tests and it makes all the right noises and movements. battery is brand new agm fully charged. new crank sensor and new cam sensor. fuel pump relay used to click rapidly at idle, replaced relay(didnt do anything),..still clicked, but now rarely clicks,..but sometimes it comes back. I am wondering if its the computer but at this point sick of throwing parts at it. if anyone can help I would appreciate it. im in the boonies of NC and the closest MB place that still works on older models is in GA.

 

[Jlaa]

before we start: The car was running fine despite degraded upper wire harness. in 2014 my wife passed and the car sat for the most part of 6 years. occasionally taking it to gas station or moving around shop. it started running rough and then the abs and asr lights came on and stayed on. so i then replaced the obvious upper harness that was degraded(no change in running performance), it then started to stall when warm and no chance of restart until it is left to cool completely,..then it starts fine and runs until warm again.

@newms55 I am very sorry for your loss. Sometimes life is so cruel. I am sorry.

If taking to the gas station / moving around the shop were all "short trips" --- have you checked the distributor caps / rotors / insulators?

 

[gsxr]

it then started to stall when warm and no chance of restart until it is left to cool completely,..then it starts fine and runs until warm again.

This is textbook failure of the crank sensor, assuming the engine never misfires. Measure the crank sensor (CKP) resistance cold (should be ~900 ohms or so). Start & run until it dies. When the engine is hot and it refuses to re-start, measure the resistance of CKP again. If it's drastically different (say, 2000 ohms or higher), your CKP is defective.

had the codes read(which was a chore in NC,..no one except dealer had the ability, finally found one guy) I will post pictures of codes read.

You can buy a hand-held blink code reader for ~$40 and pull codes yourself. Read the top threads in the "De-Coding" sub-forum for details. I don't know what code reader / scanner your local guy has, but he's not doing it right... some of the reported faults don't exist (i.e., there is no IRCL system on a USA-spec 1993 500E). And there are no P00xx codes on these OBD-1 cars. Seems like he is using a generic digital scanner, not a Mercedes-specific scanner designed for the early 1990's OBD-1 systems. See the PDF document in the De-Coding subforum for a proper code translation from the analog blink codes.

at this point I have replaced both fuel pumps, filter all 3 coolant temperature sensors, fuel pressure regulator, complete brake job with sensors, cleaned the abs sensors, cleaned the caps and rotors replaced spark plugs and wires, cleaned maf and inspected the throttle body wire harness(looks brand new-might have been previously replaced) and did the start up tests and it makes all the right noises and movements. battery is brand new agm fully charged.

At least you have a number of parts replaced, which probably needed to be done anyway (especially the fuel pumps). If the hose exiting the fuel filter is not recent, I would seriously consider replacing that, as it's a common failure and a major fire hazard. Click here for details.

fuel pump relay used to click rapidly at idle, replaced relay(didnt do anything),..still clicked, but now rarely clicks,..but sometimes it comes back.

This is due to failed capacitors in the LH module. Either replace the module, or have the capacitors replaced. There is nothing wrong with the relay. Details are on the forum if you search, it's been discussed many times over the years.

 

[newms55]

@newms55 I am very sorry for your loss. Sometimes life is so cruel. I am sorry.

If taking to the gas station / moving around the shop were all "short trips" --- have you checked the distributor caps / rotors / insulators?

yes. caps and rotors are fairly new. i cleaned them up(helped with smoothness of the running engine) but doesnt help with the stall and no restart when warm

 

[newms55]

This is textbook failure of the crank sensor, assuming the engine never misfires. Measure the crank sensor (CKP) resistance cold (should be ~900 ohms or so). Start & run until it dies. When the engine is hot and it refuses to re-start, measure the resistance of CKP again. If it's drastically different (say, 2000 ohms or higher), your CKP is defective.



You can buy a hand-held blink code reader for ~$40 and pull codes yourself. Read the top threads in the "De-Coding" sub-forum for details. I don't know what code reader / scanner your local guy has, but he's not doing it right... some of the reported faults don't exist (i.e., there is no IRCL system on a USA-spec 1993 500E). See the PDF document in the De-Coding subforum.



At least you have a number of parts replaced, which probably needed to be done anyway (especially the fuel pumps). If the hose exiting the fuel filter is not recent, I would seriously consider replacing that, as it's a common failure and a major fire hazard. Click here for details.



This is due to failed capacitors in the LH module. Either replace the module, or have the capacitors replaced. Details are on the forum if you search.

ooops,..sorry, I replaced the crank and cam sensor,..no help whatsoever. i have a blink code reader. i have all the codes.

 

[gsxr]

Did you replace the front crank sensor, or the rear crank sensor?

 

[newms55]

Did you replace the front crank sensor, or the rear crank sensor?

i didnt know it had a front sensor. i replaced the rear one on the bell housing and the cam sensor on the upper right side(if you are looking front to back onthe car)on the cylinder head. where is the front crank sensor located and do you know part number

 

[gsxr]

OK - the rear sensor is the important one. The front one is for diagnostics only, you can ignore it.

You should still measure resistance of the rear sensor when hot, to confirm that isn't the issue.

Is there ANY misfiring, at any time? Or is it dead smooth and just dies at operating temp, doesn't even attempt to fire when hot, then runs great when cooled down?

 

[newms55]

OK - the rear sensor is the important one. The front one is for diagnostics only, you can ignore it.

You should still measure resistance of the rear sensor when hot, to confirm that isn't the issue.

Is there ANY misfiring, at any time? Or is it dead smooth and just dies at operating temp, doesn't even attempt to fire when hot, then runs great when cooled down?

ok,..from dead cold,..it starts, runs smooth. smog pump comes on then shuts off as it should. then is running fine. sometimes idle is rough or smooth with small misfires,..if you give it throttle it all smooths out and is fine. once it starts to get warm the idle becomes rough,..and will only stay running if you keep it above say 2000rpm. if it stalls it wont restart and if you keep rolling it over it backfires out of the throttlebody. there is very hot exhaust coming from the tailpipe but i dont think the converters are clogged at all. and if you rev it up when its cold, there is great throttle response and crisp revving,..once hot is seems slow and sluggish and loss of power

 

[Kyiv]

ok,..from dead cold,..it starts, runs smooth. smog pump comes on then shuts off as it should. then is running fine. sometimes idle is rough or smooth with small misfires,..if you give it throttle it all smooths out and is fine. once it starts to get warm the idle becomes rough,..and will only stay running if you keep it above say 2000rpm. if it stalls it wont restart and if you keep rolling it over it backfires out of the throttlebody. there is very hot exhaust coming from the tailpipe but i dont think the converters are clogged at all. and if you rev it up when its cold, there is great throttle response and crisp revving,..once hot is seems slow and sluggish and loss of power

I vote "caps&rotors". Even if they are relatively recent.

 

[gsxr]

Yep. @kiev is correct. The misfiring, backfiring out throttlebody, etc is due to secondary ignition system, most likely caps/rotors/insulators. Search the forum, this has been discussed ad nauseum. You may have to fork out $$$ for new components.

Wouldn't hurt to inspect the plug wires (look for arcing at night, when it misfires) and measure the resistance of each plug boot. And verify it has non-resistor plugs, gapped to ~1.0mm (larger than spec).

But your description points to caps/rotors/insulators.

 

[newms55]

Yep. @kiev is correct. The misfiring, backfiring out throttlebody, etc is due to secondary ignition system, most likely caps/rotors/insulators. Search the forum, this has been discussed ad nauseum. You may have to fork out $$$ for new components.

Wouldn't hurt to inspect the plug wires (look for arcing at night, when it misfires) and measure the resistance of each plug boot. And verify it has non-resistor plugs, gapped to ~1.0mm (larger than spec).

But your description points to caps/rotors/insulators.

that takes care of the misfire but does it also address the stall when warm and no restart? I can live with alittle misfire. the plug wires are correct and brand new,..i see no evidence of burns or arcing,..and the plugs are correct and i double checked the gap. the valve cover gaskets are also brand new and there is no oil leaking anywhere on them. thanks again for all your help

 

[a777fan]

Yep. It does explain the no start when hot. Classic symptoms of secondary ignition faults on these cars. If you remove your caps and rotors post up some pictures. I’ll be curious to see what they look like.

 

[gsxr]

The misfire and stalling may be related.

Another long shot, you could try disconnecting the MAF and seeing if there is any improvement. It will be difficult to diagnose further via keyboard, without live data from the engine computers, to see if anything looks awry.

 

[newms55]

you guys are probably right. I took off the right hand distributor cap,..this is what greeted me. i have cleaned it up and will do the left side tomorrow,..then run and see if any difference. will probably buy new caps and rotors tho. will let you know how it goes

 

[newms55]

Yep. It does explain the no start when hot. Classic symptoms of secondary ignition faults on these cars. If you remove your caps and rotors post up some pictures. I’ll be curious to see what they look like.

i posted some pictures for you guys

 

[a777fan]

Wow. Black insulators and ORANGE rotors!

Those must be original to the car?

You can see signs of arcing in the caps, and the rotors don’t look super great either. I’ll be curious to hear if your cleaning has made a difference. If not, I’d definitely replace all ignition items. Caps, rotors and insulators. All with OE or equivalent parts.

 

[TerryA]

Those caps and rotors are done and must be replaced. An important part is the insulators. Make sure you replace them also.

Also, If you haven't already, you might want to look at the lower harness. I can cause an awful lot of problems if it has deteriorated.

 

[verkuilm]

Interesting, I got the same problem. Already changed enginine harnass, Lower and upper. Resoldering the capicitors in the injectie computer. Changed the EZL, ignition computer. But waiting on the Rotot and distibutor. Cold it starts, but heating up it is getting in trouble and dies. When I started with the problem there was no action at all.
See on the picture1191580288, those I dont have! I cab see som scratchs on the cab, that could be the misfire.

 

[verkuilm]

Yess I agree with reaction of Terry on the lower Harness. There are no systems connected for the injection or fuel system.
But it has the wires for the altnator, that could cause problems. Getting it out is a struggle, but it is easy to rebuild.

 

[gerryvz]

Those caps aren't horrible. I've seen FAR worse.

That said, I will "third" what others have said. Your problem is very likely the insulators, not just the caps and rotors. Black insulators means that they are the originals.

If you want to see what caps look like with arcing trails, look at my rebuild photos from this summer. I also replaced my original insulators. I had no discernible running issues, and my caps were far worse. I think l have also posted photos of my ORIGINAL caps that I changed when I lived in Portland, OR. I had a very occasional idle hiccup at a stoplight idle with those, but generally the car ran fine.

Summer 2020 caps (Maryland):



2004 caps (Oregon):

 

[gsxr]

Those orange rotors are old, OE Bosch, complete with MB part number and Star logo. Never seen them before, they must be really old.

Make sure to remove the rotor bracket so you can remove the insulator, and inspect the back side. If there's an oil leak from the cam sprocket seal hidden back there, you'll continue to have troubles even with new ignition parts.

You definitely have an oil leak north of the distributors. Probably from the cam solenoids / magnets. Another item to repair while you're in there... search the forum for info. Only use anaerobic sealant on the solenoids.

 

[newms55]

UPDATE. well, THANKS! after a good cleaning of cap and rotors, the car runs like a scolded child. new caps and rotors are needed for sure. i didnt seem to have any of the no restart issues either. however I still have 3 pages of codes to fix and go thru(those attached pictures on my first post if anyone wants to tackle any of them. and Also still have the abs/asr lights on. I have a new brake pedal switch and hope that is the problem. will let you know. thanks again!

 

[maw1124]

I love how there’s really only a handful of issues on these cars that have been beat to death on this Board. Well done Gents!

maw

 

[newms55]

I love how there’s really only a handful of issues on these cars that have been beat to death on this Board. Well done Gents!

maw

im new here,..so even searching for things is difficult until i get used to it. was easier to just post and get replies. which did the trick for the big issue. I have many more if you look at the attached photos of codes. but off to a good start. didnt know this issue was beaten to death. sorry

 

[gerryvz]

I have tried to make it easier to find stuff with the advanced search engine and related lists of threads that display at the bottom.

 

[Kyiv]

@newms55 you don't want to meet Russell Crow's character from the still-in-theaters movie "Unhinged"

 

[maw1124]

im new here,..so even searching for things is difficult until i get used to it. was easier to just post and get replies. which did the trick for the big issue. I have many more if you look at the attached photos of codes. but off to a good start. didnt know this issue was beaten to death. sorry

Sorry, but my comment was more about the ease of maintaining the car (handful of issues) than your ability to find answers. The testament to it being a W124 with a M119 is that not a lot goes wrong, and when it does almost everyone knows what it is, because not a lot goes wrong. And they made tons of W124s and M119s, so until very recently you could find parts. That’s basically what convinced me to get one.

I’m also sorry for your loss, by the way. But welcome aboard! We’re a pretty jovial, harmless bunch. Not a lot of malice, pomposity or braggadocio here, consistent with the character of the car funny enough.

BTW, what’s the 55 for in your moniker?

Cheers,

maw

P.S. That transmission overlay code seems new to me... I wonder what that’s about. NSS maybe?

 

[gsxr]

ABS+ASR lights likely indicates limp mode. Search for that.

Trans overload switch is a common failure, easy to replace, Gerry just did this and posted some tips. But that's low priority if the car is in limp mode.

 

[maw1124]

My NSS sent me into limp mode, but I don't remember the codes.

maw

 

[gsxr]

As mentioned back in post #3, several of those codes are incorrectly translated. And I don't see a single one related to limp mode. I don't think you have pulled codes from all 6 powertrain modules. I'm seeing mostly EZL/DI (ignition) fault codes; most of which are irrelevant and can be ignored.

You also have a severe case of "code diarrhea". Now that the engine is running better, you must clear all codes from all modules, start & drive the car, and focus on the codes which recur immediately. All of this is covered in the De-Coding subforum stickies (the top threads in that subforum).

 

[newms55]

Sorry, but my comment was more about the ease of maintaining the car (handful of issues) than your ability to find answers. The testament to it being a W124 with a M119 is that not a lot goes wrong, and when it does almost everyone knows what it is, because not a lot goes wrong. And they made tons of W124s and M119s, so until very recently you could find parts. That’s basically what convinced me to get one.

I’m also sorry for your loss, by the way. But welcome aboard! We’re a pretty jovial, harmless bunch. Not a lot of malice, pomposity or braggadocio here, consistent with the character of the car funny enough.

BTW, what’s the 55 for in your moniker?

Cheers,

maw

P.S. That transmission overlay code seems new to me... I wonder what that’s about. NSS maybe?

no worries! im just fumbling around here but sure appreciate all the excellent help and advice. Ive already began driving my car again! so its awesome. my lucky number is 5. the more 5's the better. even married my wife on july 5 at 5:55. she loved this car so really its a tribute to her to try and get it running well again even if she cant be sitting by my side. thanks for all your help and I appreciate everyone here.

 

[newms55]

As mentioned back in post #3, several of those codes are incorrectly translated. And I don't see a single one related to limp mode. I don't think you have pulled codes from all 6 powertrain modules. I'm seeing mostly EZL/DI (ignition) fault codes; most of which are irrelevant and can be ignored.

You also have a severe case of "code diarrhea". Now that the engine is running better, you must clear all codes from all modules, start & drive the car, and focus on the codes which recur immediately. All of this is covered in the De-Coding subforum stickies (the top threads in that subforum).

i had cleared the codes last time I had them looked at. now i can actually drive the car, I will make a trip up(last time I had to take the nose off and trailer it) to get them re-read and cleared again. and I will be back and let people know what happened. this board is just awesome! thanks for all you do

 

[maw1124]

no worries! im just fumbling around here but sure appreciate all the excellent help and advice. Ive already began driving my car again! so its awesome. my lucky number is 5. the more 5's the better. even married my wife on july 5 at 5:55. she loved this car so really its a tribute to her to try and get it running well again even if she cant be sitting by my side. thanks for all your help and I appreciate everyone here.

Then you'll love this...

 

[newms55]

thats awesome

 

[newms55]

I have for sale an ABS/ASR module for the 500E or E500. MB part number is 014 545 39 32.

This module was taken out of a 1994 E420 but works fine for the 500E and E500. Works with any E500E, as well as for 400E and E420 cars that have ASR. This is the same unit that E500E models were shipped with from the factory.

Date of manufacture is July, 1993.

Price is $125 shipped Priority Mail in the USA. That breaks down to $110 + $15 shipping.

Ideal for long-term owners to have as a spare unit.

my asr and abs lights are on. they came on and stayed on. regardless of trying the switch in the dash. when I lay into it it only burns the passenger rear tire,..no posi traction. wondering if module is the culprit. I had all codes cleared and as soon as I started the car both lights came on and stayed on again,...

 

[gsxr]

These cars have no mechanical posi traction / limited-slip from the factory. It's electronic. The warning lights are telling you the electronic system (ASR) is not working. You'll need to see which codes are on the modules, particularly E-GAS and ABS/ASR modules.

If the first half of accelerator pedal travel does nothing (engine stays at idle until half-throttle), you are in "limp mode". Need codes for further diagnosis.

 

[newms55]

These cars have no mechanical posi traction / limited-slip from the factory. It's electronic. The warning lights are telling you the electronic system (ASR) is not working. You'll need to see which codes are on the modules, particularly E-GAS and ABS/ASR modules.

If the first half of accelerator pedal travel does nothing (engine stays at idle until half-throttle), you are in "limp mode". Need codes for further diagnosis.

no limp mode,..it burns one tire for 1/8th mile. runs like the wind. these were all the codes before I cleared them. i dont have access to the scanner any longer. so cant rescan. i have been replacing all the sensors listed and have fixed the misfires with new caps and rotors. yes the harness is new and the old one is probably responsible for most of what is listed. the throttle body harness is perfect and it makes all the rights sounds and seems like it was replaced at some point before I owned it. on another note, cut the whole end of my finger off today bone and all installing the rear wheel,..rotated it and my finger slipped in between the spoke and caliper,..schnook! its hard typing,..lol

 

[gsxr]

Check the GM-type blade fuses in the BM/GM module, inside the CAN box. If the ASR module is not receiving power, it could cause this.

And OUCH on the finger!!!

 

[newms55]

Check the GM-type blade fuses in the BM/GM module, inside the CAN box. If the ASR module is not receiving power, it could cause this.

And OUCH on the finger!!!

ok,...so the box with the modules inside,..like the LH module. remove and open those modules,..there are glas tube fuses inside? just so I am clear

 

[gerryvz]

Sorry to hear about your finger, Yikes! Is it fixable? I wish you much luck.

In August 2019 I smashed the upper half of my left index finger 100% flat in a hydraulic log splitter. Came very close to losing the half of the finger that was smashed. Finally have full bendability back, after constant use and physical rehab, bit I'm afraid that finger will always be quite a bit "wider" than my right index finger. Still feels weird and is not as strong at the tip as my right finger.

 

[gsxr]

ok,...so the box with the modules inside,..like the LH module. remove and open those modules,..there are glas tube fuses inside? just so I am clear

Remove the lid, no need to remove the modules, defintely do not open any of them. The fuses are plastic blade-type (ATO/ATC style) accessible from the top. Photo below.

If all the fuses are good, there's a faint possibility that BM/GM module (with the fuses) is defective, OR the ASR module is defective. Both are inexpensive used. The GM module is the more likely failure, I can't remember the last time I've heard of an ASR module that failed. Any 1992-95 400E/E420 is a valid donor for the GM, but for the ASR module the 400E/E420 must have optional ASR.

 

[newms55]

Remove the lid, no need to remove the modules, defintely do not open any of them. The fuses are plastic blade-type (ATO/ATC style) accessible from the top. Photo below.

If all the fuses are good, there's a faint possibility that BM/GM module (with the fuses) is defective, OR the ASR module is defective. Both are inexpensive used. The GM module is the more likely failure, I can't remember the last time I've heard of an ASR module that failed. Any 1992-95 400E/E420 is a valid donor for the GM, but for the ASR module the 400E/E420 must have optional ASR.

View attachment 123934 View attachment 123935

i have checked these not long ago. all were ok as I remember,..I will check again. I also have the "clicking" fuel pump relay which I was told was bad LH unit. it clicks at idle and sometimes turns into a loud clunking of the fuel lines along the chassis if I dont increase the idle with the gas pedal. doesnt happen all the time but just every so often. thanks!

 

[newms55]

Sorry to hear about your finger, Yikes! Is it fixable? I wish you much luck.

In August 2019 I smashed the upper half of my left index finger 100% flat in a hydraulic log splitter. Came very close to losing the half of the finger that was smashed. Finally have full bendability back, after constant use and physical rehab, bit I'm afraid that finger will always be quite a bit "wider" than my right index finger. Still feels weird and is not as strong at the tip as my right finger.

yeah its pretty bad. sucks its my index finger on my right. Im somewhat ambidextrous so I will manage,..but it hurts like hell! thanks for your concern. hope all is well and always thanks for your help

 

[Kyiv]

I also have the "clicking" fuel pump relay which I was told was bad LH unit. it clicks at idle and sometimes turns into a loud clunking of the fuel lines along the chassis if I dont increase the idle with the gas pedal. doesnt happen all the time but just every so often. thanks!

The cause is your LH module. You can replace 6 capacitors inside or find a used one. I paid a computer shop $50-60 to solder new capacitors that I bought from Amazon for about $20.

See this thread:

LH Module cross Test and Repair - Capacitor replacement | Electrical, CAN and Wiring

ADMIN UPDATE: Additional information on replacement caps at this post. Also, forum member @Alphasud offers a capacitor replacement service, click here for details. First, I have to say this forum is very good that I didn't seen before. Everyone share know-how and help each other. Some...

www.500eboard.co

 

[newms55]

hello,.....just an update. well my ASR and ABS lights were on and stayed on. I checked all the info provided above and no luck. I then replaced the brake light switch on my brake pedal. BOOM! lights are out and traction control fully functional again. thanks for all the help and suggestions. got this one fixed