Is there a such thing as an E500E "parts car" ?!?

[leadphut]

VIN = ???

Mercedes Benz 500E - $7500 (Metairie , LA.)

1992 Mercedes Benz 500E Fair condition , Needs some care has been sitting under carport since 2012 . All was working when sat up . Going to need tune up , oil service , some interior needs to be reglued and a good check over . If you look up the car on the internet their were about 1550 units shipped to the US . I am at a firm $7500.00 .

John (504) 338-4903​

 

[gerryvz]

Re: FS: 1992 Mercedes 500E, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

Good parts car. Needs to donate to keep others on the road.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[gsxr]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

That is one of the roughest 98 thousand miles I've seen, assuming the odometer is accurate. If that is "fair" condition, my smoke silver 500E is concours! Yikes.

At least the price is somewhat reasonable. This is a tough one, if it's straight and rust free it's just nice enough to be above parts car territory (and priced above parts car values)... but it would take quite a bit of TLC to even bring it up to driver status or track rat duty.

 

[Melville]

Before I bought my car I looked at a car with about this mileage and not much better condition. Owned by a shop owner who basically left it outside and barely moved it for 3 years. The oil looked like milk and white smoke billowed out when I smashed the throttle. Too bad as it was anthracite which I think is one of the best colors. Any car can really deteriorate if abandoned. The owner was ready to make a deal but my gut told me that even if it were free I'd regret it after spendind a fortune just to address some of the issues.

 

[maw1124]

Re: FS: 1992 Mercedes 500E, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

Good parts car. Needs to donate to keep others on the road.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

And the weed-out begins...

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

Look, I've seen this before in the 300SEL 6.3 and 450SEL 6.9 markets. The lower cars are just too prohibitive cost-wise to be restored. Or even made into a "beater" daily driver or this vaunted but elusive "track rat" category that seems to exist, but is rarely if ever actually seen in the wild.

The bottom line on this stuff is that if a car is not a Condition 3 or greater, it honestly has no mid- to long-term future as a drivable example of the breed, so it should be sacrificed to keep the other cars on the road. There are fewer and fewer of these cars around by the week.....the honest goal should be to preserve the better ones and let the lesser ones fall to do so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ntrepid]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

Quote from Mulholland Falls:

General Timms: That's the history of the world, Lieutenant. Some people die before their time so that others can live. It's the cornerstone of civilization. War, religion, democracy. A hundred die so that a thousand may live.


Robert

 

[maw1124]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

I'm in nonviolent agreement. I thought I was getting a car that was rare enough to be worth keeping running well, but with parts available enough to not be cost prohibitive. For the first 5 years or so, that was true. Now, not so much. Increasingly when the car needs something, the parts are coming from Germany. Or they're aftermarket, which rather beats the point to me. Which is further to all your points -- (1) if these need salvaging, that's less likely to happen; (2) if it happens it will cost more; and (3) the ones that need salvaging should probably just be sacrificed.

But this new "weed-out" era ends the previous era, in which these were looked at as gold mines just waiting to be polished off. It remains as Arthur Miller once famously said, "An era can be said to end when its basic illusions are exhausted."

There remain no free lunches.

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

The "weed-out" era that we are now beginning is a good thing, because the increasing scarcity/rarity of truly nice and/or well-maintained models (condition 1/2 and/or higher miles impeccably maintained models) means that all of the cars are going to see continued appreciation.

Now that it's pretty well documented that MB is slowly discontinuing (or actually, not continuing) production of spare parts -- particularly body and trim components), it places a greater imperative on hoarding spare parts for the bits that are, or soon will be, NLA parts. The mechanical parts (drivetrain and such) are no big deal, and spares both new and used will remain very available for decades to come. But body parts, and trim pieces that are specific to the model ... oy, not so much. Enough of the trim is shared with pedestrian 124s that we will remain in decent shape, but every year that passes means that parts should be accumulated.

For many parts, I'd rather have a used original part, made in Germany, than a new replacement MB/factory/aftermarket part made in a third-world country.

Long term owners/collectors of these models may well want to acquire and dismantle a parts car to have spares on hand. Just sayin'

I know what I say is controversial and/or not popular. Some may think it ridiculous and/or over-hyped. But if you see what MB is doing, you know that more and more stuff will never be seen again new, and what will pass as "new" will increasingly be aftermarket crap and/or MB stuff that is produced in third-world countries, to a spec that is not up to the original factory spec.

Bottom line: Drive your cars! Enjoy them! Let them do what they were designed to do. Joy de vivre! Damn the torpedoes!

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[leadphut]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

i think Gerry just told me to buy this car.

 

[psportoveloce]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

It's interesting to read this "part 'em out" argument here because this rationale used to be practiced in the Porsche world and has almost completely fallen by the wayside because early 911s (and even 912s) are now so valuable. Basically, if it's mostly complete and not terminally rusty, it's worth saving. But a matching numbers restored 912 is worth $40k+ and a 911 in similar condition is $60k-$250k.

I think however, it will remain true in the Mercedes world for a while for two reasons:
1) The cars are less valuable than Porsches
2) They're more complex and expensive to restore than Porsches

If I found a long hood 911 or 912 in this condition I would be dancing vigorously as I forced cash into the seller's hands. Maybe even a 6.3 would be worth a somewhat less vigorous jig in this condition. But 6.9 and .036 values aren't high enough to make restoring a car like this exciting at any purchase price...yet? I suspect that in a couple decades, it will be regarded as a shame that an .036 in this condition was broken up. Today, there isn't really another economical option other than to break it up.

 

[gsxr]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

... I suspect that in a couple decades, it will be regarded as a shame that an .036 in this condition was broken up. Today, there isn't really another economical option other than to break it up.

That is a good summary. This particular car is sort of in purgatory as it's not quite cheap enough to be a good deal as a parts car; and it would require a bit too much restoration to be a good investment for most buyers. IMO the buyer for a car like this would either be someone in Europe who wants a rust-free chassis to work with (difficult to find in Europe); or someone in the USA who wants to get into an 036 but doesn't have $25k to plunk down for a nicer one... and, has DIY capability to resurrect it over time. This particular car has the advantage of a low odometer reading (assuming it's accurate), as collectors tend to care more about odometer readings and cosmetics than the mechanical condition of the car.

If values of 036's keep rising, and if Gerryboard still exists, I'm sure there will be much hand-wringing 20 years from now when future enthusiasts read these old threads were clean, rust-free, undamaged cars were chopped up and parted out. I hope this one goes to a good home somewhere. I doubt it will get parted unless the price comes down.

 

[gerryvz]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

The .036 market is nowhere near that of the 911/912 market, or Porsches in general, and never will be. It's a complete comparison of apples and oranges.

Again, as I say, the 6.3 and 6.9 markets are very instructive and predictive for the .036 market.

• Relatively high number of cars made (6,526 - 6.3; 7,380 - 6.9; 10,479 - E500E)
• Sedans, not two-door or sports/GT cars
• Limited collector appeal to narrow, niche market
• Chassis-specific components going/gone out of production

Honestly, there are few if any folks out there who rue that ANY 6.3 or 6.9 is a loss, no matter how dilapidated/rusty they are. If anything, these hulks are in demand to provide parts to (or spares for) the remaining cars.

Very very few folks have successfully seen nut-and-bolt restorations of 6.3 and 6.9 cars all the way through. Instead, low-miles, well-preserved cars tend to be the order of the day. The few cars that have been restored, have required exponential dollars ($200K and above). And they day after they are completed, the restored cars are worth perhaps $150K, max, and that is MB Classic Center prices, not real-world prices.

There are no more than a couple of thousand TRUE 6.3 and 6.9 enthusiasts out there, worldwide. And the same will be true for the E500E market. The Porsche pedigree may make the car of slight interest to MB and Porsche enthusiasts, but the same could be said of the 6.3 and 6.9-specific variants of the M100 powertrain as well, in terms of exclusive features that make the cars of interest to collectors/enthusiasts.

I'm starting to see folks in the Porsche market rue the demise of lowly VW-based 914s, for the record. Particularly the 914-6 models. Whodathunk?!?

Look at the values of our cars, as well as the M100-powered cars, in the latest SL Market Letter valuation article that I posted on the Magazine Articles sub-forum.

I say Drive 'em, or Break 'em Up. No compromise! Take No Prisoners! Garages Kill !!

Cheers,
Gerry

P.S. The SLML prices quoted are based on real-world sales prices, of multiple cars averaged, NOT of one-off "Classic Center" prices or asking prices by sellers. Some may react to the prices being low, but these figures are based on real-world sales as reported by buyers and sellers, not scraped from web sites and fleaBay and various exotic dealer web sites, etc.

 

[sheward]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

These are all very interesting thoughts on the state of things regarding the 036 and I agree with and feel similar about all that's been said. As for where we are with the arc of the "era", this car is a very good indicator. Will someone choose to bring it back? I think not. I will say if I did not have one I might consider it (based on pictures) but would most likely pay more for an easier project. I admit I'm an extreme example and I don't believe there are many folks out there that will consider it.

drew

 

[gsxr]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

P.S. The SLML prices quoted are based on real-world sales prices, of multiple cars averaged, NOT of one-off "Classic Center" prices or asking prices by sellers. Some may react to the prices being low, but these figures are based on real-world sales as reported by buyers and sellers, not scraped from web sites and fleaBay and various exotic dealer web sites, etc.

Gerry, I believe those prices shown ARE slightly low - because not all real-world sales are reported. The recent sale of Jeff's Signal Red car to Jlaa is a good example. One-offs and unicorns should be factored into the average, as long as they are real-world confirmed sales.

SL Market Letter, Dec-2016, E500E values:
Perfect (1) = $35k
Excellent (2) = $19k
Average (3) = $13k
Fair (4) = Not shown
Poor (5) = $5k


For a counterpoint, here are the current Hagerty values of a 1993 500E, rounded to even numbers (screenshot attached):
https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/1993-Mercedes~Benz-500E
Concours (1) = $50k
Excellent (2) = $40k
Good (3) = $30k
Fair (4) = $19k

 

[gerryvz]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

I have known John Olson (SL Market Letter founder/chief editor) for 20 years, and he's been tracking the collectable MB market for 35+ years. I trust his methodology.

Indeed, numbers are only as good as what is provided .. the old "garbage in, garbage out" comes to mind ... and I do agree that the numbers may be low (also for the 2.3-16s as shown). There's no way to get transaction data on every car bought and sold during any period of time.

I also feel that the Hagerty numbers got ahead of themselves in recent years in the market runup, and that they may be as much optimistic as the SL Market Letter numbers may be low.

The reality, is that the real-world numbers are likely somewhere in between.

 

[gsxr]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

I also feel that the Hagerty numbers got ahead of themselves in recent years in the market runup, and that they may be as much optimistic as the SL Market Letter numbers may be low.

Yes - I forgot to mention that in my previous post. I think the Hagerty numbers are on the high side, although their description of their ratings partially explains the high numbers.

The reality, is that the real-world numbers are likely somewhere in between.

I agree with that 110%!

 

[Melville]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

My unscientific gut feeling was also that the prices are actually between hagerty and the SL market newsletter. As a current owner and not someone in the market, my first reaction was that I'd rather the Hagerty numbers be correct. Especially after my recent trip to Jono's shop when I asked him to go over the car with a fine tooth comb and do anything he could find to make it better. Open checkbook. Sometimes when I think about how much money I've put into my car in the year and 1/2 since I bought it I shudder when I think about how much in the red I would be if I were to sell it today. But that quickly goes away when I realize I'm not going to sell it. So the dollar values put into the car vs market value don't really matter. And when it really comes down to it I would rather that the prices stay relatively low. That way these cars would get into the hands of true enthusiasts. Like Gerry says, people who will drive their cars. Once cars hit a certain price point, it seems like a different type of buyer goes after them. I'm constantly checking the weather report and hoping that the weekend will have nice weather for a four or five hour trip to the Skyline drive. I'm not sitting at home and looking forward to putting my car under a cover for the next few months. Of course, I'm not going to take the car out if there is salt on the roads! That would go too far. There's being an enthusiast, and then there's being crazy!!!

 

[maw1124]

GVZ raises an interesting question about when and whether 25year old, used but original MB parts may be more valuable than new aftermarket. Unless it's metal or glass, I can't see how that's the case. But it bears some thinking. We know German plastic and rubber isn't the best, so I certainly don't want old, used rubber or plastic. And that probably goes for vinyl too. This is more or less why I haven't gotten a 500E parts car, although I've thought about it. In the end, I've just been opting for the new German stuff, although I have a couple of duplicate electronic parts (which can fairly easily be rebuilt).

Parts availability may be the thing that moves this car to the sale block for me. I just don't think I have that kind of patience for a machine. But I'm with you Mark -- I write plenty of checks and am hopelessly underwater (even according to Hagerty) but drive the car plenty and enjoy every minute of it.

Love the new thread title by the way...

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Love the new thread title by the way...

There are more than a few here that would unequivocally say, "F&%$ No !!!"

Cheers,
Gerry

P.S. Has anyone (besides Jono) actually seen this rare sub-species called the "E500E Track Rat"? (drag racing cars do not count).

 

[Stevester 500E]

Interesting subject, and subjective at that.
Is this a mathematical exercise?

 

[gsxr]

P.S. Has anyone (besides Jono) actually seen this rare sub-species called the "E500E Track Rat"? (drag racing cars do not count).

HEY. Drag cars count!

 

[Stevester 500E]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

Gerry,

I don't think what you are saying about the subject of qualifying what a parts car is all that controversial. But certainly, there are probably those that differ in opinion.

I find myself flip flopping on this issue. And have mixed emotions on the subject. As a matter of fact, at one point I considered parting out my ugly duckling. And I have also passed up on parts cars, in hopes that some aspiring owner can pay a lower price of admission to fulfill their dreams.

I tend to be on the side of keeping the car alive if it is still running.
I think its because I don't see the that there are many parts on a 500e that can't be sourced from other more available models. However, there are some very desirable parts on .036 donor/parts cars, such as the fenders, claddings, bumpers and 1/4 panels-these parts are usually the first to be parted. Many times, these parts end up on w124 wagons or W124 Coupes.

I agree that it is a good idea to have some spare parts. But as stated above, many spare parts can be harvested from other more common models.

Typically, the person that benefits the most is the one that parts out the car. And there is nothing wrong with that. But let's be honest, the more desirable parts off of a donor/parts car usually don't end up saving the life of a condition 3 or greater car.

If this car is sold for anything close to the asking price, I can guarantee with certainty zero profit will be made.

So I am surmising that those saying this is a parts car, are really saying is, "the price is too high for a keeper, and the price should by lowered to that of the going rate of a parts car".

.......
Long term owners/collectors of these models may well want to acquire and dismantle a parts car to have spares on hand. Just sayin'

I know what I say is controversial and/or not popular. Some may think it ridiculous and/or over-hyped. But if you see what MB is doing, you know that more and more stuff will never be seen again new, and what will pass as "new" will increasingly be aftermarket crap and/or MB stuff that is produced in third-world countries, to a spec that is not up to the original factory spec.

Bottom line: Drive your cars! Enjoy them! Let them do what they were designed to do. Joy de vivre! Damn the torpedoes!

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Jlaa]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

Gerry, I believe those prices shown ARE slightly low - because not all real-world sales are reported. The recent sale of Jeff's Signal Red car to Jlaa is a good example. One-offs and unicorns should be factored into the average, as long as they are real-world confirmed sales.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey I resemble that remark!!! I appreciate this discourse --- it is quite entertaining and informative.

I have some observations about current "value" ---- which really is just a guess on the supply/demand of what is an awfully illiquid object.

1) The world has a lot of liquidity now, in 2016.
2) That liquidity has been frantically chasing better returns than that which can be realized over cash for almost a decade now.
3) I see the parallels, Gerry, you made with the 6.3 / 6.9 market --- however ----
4) GenX lusted after the E500E. GenX didn't lust after the 6.3/6.9 when they were young.
5) If one lusted after a 6.3/6.9 when they were young, that means one was young in the late 60s or throughout the 70s. Being young in that time period means one had many options to lust over --- all kinds of spectacular late 60s/early 70s pre-malaise American hardware --- Mustangs, Camaros, Impalas, etc etc etc.... And so the 6.3/6.9 needs to compete against all those other cars for owners' attention. Perhaps that affects market values.

And Finally ---
6) GenX now, as a generation, are just starting to enter the optimum earning years of their life.

Corollary --> look at all the mid 80s Japanese hardware / Skylines / Hakosoukas / etc. that has been steadily appreciating over the past several years. Perhaps this is the Gen-X effect?

If you were young in the 80s and early 90s, what did you have to lust over? Not much. The industry was exiting the malaise era. You lusted over ---- uhhhhh ---- Car and Driver's 1983 COTY the Pontiac 6000STE? Probably not too much. You lusted over Japanese cars --- AE86s, RX7s, 300ZXs, Supras (ugh), e28 M5s, e24 M6s, VW A2 GTIs, (maybe) the original Ford SHO. Or the Dodge Spirit R/T with 224hp from the venerable Chrysler 4 cylinder turbo power plant that they put in EVERYTHING, including minivans and Dodge 600Es. Hell, in the late 80s, even the Cressida was cool. Certainly waaaay cooler than all those aging Ford LTDs or Granadas or Dodge Diplomats that littered the landscape when you looked out the window of your parents' G-body Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme while driving to T-ball practice.

And then, for the first time in what felt like 15 years ---- or more precisely for GenX, for the first time in your freakin' LIFE, along comes a sedan. A quality sedan. Except this sedan has a v8. 350+ ft-lbs of torque. 322 hp. Not some mouse-shit Chevy 305 with Tuned Port Injection and a measly 170hp in a warped-front-clip-plastic-fantastic-Camaro ----- but an outrageous 322 hp! And this wasn't just a screaming-to-7000-rpm-already-absurd-310hp-S38-straight-6-from-an-e34-M5. This was a friggin 4 cam v8! And it cost 80K USD! That was almost the same amount of $$$$ your parents spent on their Zayre-built anonymous subdivision tract-home in an anonymous city in the Midwest just 10 years prior when you were 8!

Because Gen-X doesn't have context on the 6.3/6.9, I suspect the E500E may be prized higher in years to come --- particularly by Gen-X.

Okay, that's enough imbibing for tonight.

 

[Maui]

Great discussion.

 

[Stevester 500E]

Oh, my answer...NO ! No such thing as a 500e parts car.

 

[Stevester 500E]

 

[Stevester 500E]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

500EBoard Cyber Bully values:
No such thing as perfect (1)...."maybe 600Eric's"
Excellent (2) = $13,000 "on a good day"
Average (3) = $5,600
Fair (4) = "no value due to deferred maintenance costs, cost prohibitive"
Poor (5) = "Its a parts car, let us vultures fight for it" "FIRST DIBBS ON THE FENDERS......"

SL Market Letter, Dec-2016, E500E values:
Perfect (1) = $35k
Excellent (2) = $19k
Average (3) = $13k
Fair (4) = Not shown
Poor (5) = $5k


For a counterpoint, here are the current Hagerty values of a 1993 500E, rounded to even numbers (screenshot attached):
https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/1993-Mercedes~Benz-500E
Concours (1) = $50k
Excellent (2) = $40k
Good (3) = $30k
Fair (4) = $19k

 

[Raffaelli]

Interesting discussion. One thing I've observed is don't be suprised what some people will/won't pay for things.

Is this car to rough to be "saved?" IMO no. But No way in hell I'd dish out 50k for the mint-iest concourse level 500e either. They just aren't desirable enough to command that sort of price from me.

If it was an AMG widebody c126 or a Hammer I might change my mind though!

I'm not seeing what's terminal on this car that you guys wouldn't touch it. The seat or sitting up for 5 years? Or is it that it's not a "deal" money wise?

Personally I would never buy it because the color doesn't appeal to me.

 

[AMGTesTDriverNJ]

I would have considered that matte black 500E I helped sell earlier this year a track rat and/or parts car

 

[gerryvz]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

3) I see the parallels, Gerry, you made with the 6.3 / 6.9 market --- however ----
4) GenX lusted after the E500E. GenX didn't lust after the 6.3/6.9 when they were young.
5) If one lusted after a 6.3/6.9 when they were young, that means one was young in the late 60s or throughout the 70s. Being young in that time period means one had many options to lust over --- all kinds of spectacular late 60s/early 70s pre-malaise American hardware --- Mustangs, Camaros, Impalas, etc etc etc.... And so the 6.3/6.9 needs to compete against all those other cars for owners' attention. Perhaps that affects market values.

And Finally ---
6) GenX now, as a generation, are just starting to enter the optimum earning years of their life.

Corollary --> look at all the mid 80s Japanese hardware / Skylines / Hakosoukas / etc. that has been steadily appreciating over the past several years. Perhaps this is the Gen-X effect?

I was referring to the 6.3/6.9 in terms of market dynamics, scarcity and pricing trends. These "performance saloons" are about the best historical facsimiles that we have in the Mercedes market as far as collectability, desirability, survivorship, etc. and over the 15 years I've been watching the E500E market (and having owned & daily-driven a 6.3 and a 6.9 some 15+ years ago) I'd say that the E500E market, for where it's at on the curve, has been fairly similar to where these M100-powered sedans have been on their respective age curves.

As an older member of GenX, I can affirm that there was precious little in terms of interesting cars, but there were certainly quite a few. In addition to the "exotics" (Countach, etc.) there were plenty of Porsches (930 Turbo comes to mind), Ferraris (328/348 per Magnum PI), Testarossas (per Miami Vice), AMGs, and if one liked domestic iron, perhaps the C4 Corvette and the Buick Grand National. And then, the Japanese stuff like Supra Turbos, RX-7s, and the like.

No question the runup in prices and interest in Japanese cars over the past 5 years is totally due to GenX interest. IMHO the biggest problem is that there are so few that have survived, unlike the more stout 1960s and 1970s cars like the Camaros, Fireturds, Mustangs, Impalas, etc.

I don't think that the 6.3/6.9/500E compete particularly heavily for owner/collector attention vs. Japanese or American models, or even other German cars.

In my view, most folks who were/are interested in Japanese cars, tended/tend not to be as much "into" American or European cars. And the same can be said for those who were interested in American cars -- Mustangs, Camaros and the like .. they tended to be American car people, and not Japanese car or European car folks.

I cut my teeth on Volkswagens (early 1960s Beetles, then the Mk1. Golf/Rabbit GTI) and then (after a practical few years as I got established in my career, having purchased a new Honda Civic) getting back into German cars with Mercedes-Benz around 20 years ago. My wife and I got a white 300TE wagon in anticipation of having kids, which happened a bit later.

Heh ... how many Gen 1 RX-7s do you see on the roads these days? Or VW Rabbits/GTIs/Sciroccos? Next to none. They didn't survive.

I don't believe that the E500E is going to be prized (or priced) noticeably any higher than 6.3 and 6.9 models are, or were, on their age/price curves. You have to remember that the market is VERY limited for these cars, compared to that of more "desirable" coupes and convertibles. Top of the mark 6.3, last produced in 1972, is ~$150K for a low-miles original or perfect restoration, and even that is high. Classic Center or Kienle could probably get $200K for one of their restored 6.3s.

I doubt that an E500E, when 45 years out of production, will be topping these figures. The market is just too limited/narrow for our cars.

You want to see serious appreciation? You can see this in the W111/112 market over the past 10-12 years. The Mack-Daddy 280SE 3.5 convertibles started skyrocketing, then the "pedestrian" non-3.5 convertibles started skyrocketing. Now you see the 3.5 hardtop coupes, and non-3.5 coupes, bringing some huge money .. like $50-80K for nice examples. 10 years ago, these hardtop coupes were struggling to hit $10K, if that.

We're going to see it with the 560SEC market too. I believe that another 20 years in the future, an E500E will be market-priced lower than (and at best, parity with), an equivalent 560SEC. Simply because the market says that coupes and convertibles are more desirable than sedans.

I guess I'd say that anyone who owns an E500E for its "collectable growth potential" owns the wrong car. Much better, IMHO, to get a well sorted W111 coupe, or a C126, or even a 3.2-liter C124 or preferably an A124 (124 cabrio). Or an R107 or Pagoda SL, for that matter. R107 values have started picking up, and despite so many being made, will be a good value for collectors in the next 10-20 years for Condition 1-2 cars.

 

[sheward]

Jlaa: Another good perspective and one I wanted to illustrate but could not muster the typing patience. There is good history to guide collector value for sure but so many important variables such as the wealth and interests of the buyer pool that I still find it speculative to try. Feel free to imbibe, we only live once!

drew

 

[gsxr]

... If you were young in the 80s and early 90s, what did you have to lust over? Not much. The industry was exiting the malaise era. ... And then, for the first time in what felt like 15 years ---- or more precisely for GenX, for the first time in your freakin' LIFE, along comes a sedan. A quality sedan. Except this sedan has a v8. 350+ ft-lbs of torque. 322 hp. Not some mouse-shit Chevy 305 with Tuned Port Injection and a measly 170hp in a warped-front-clip-plastic-fantastic-Camaro ----- but an outrageous 322 hp! And this wasn't just a screaming-to-7000-rpm-already-absurd-310hp-S38-straight-6-from-an-e34-M5. This was a friggin 4 cam v8! And it cost 80K USD! That was almost the same amount of $$$$ your parents spent on their Zayre-built anonymous subdivision tract-home in an anonymous city in the Midwest just 10 years prior when you were 8! Because Gen-X doesn't have context on the 6.3/6.9, I suspect the E500E may be prized higher in years to come --- particularly by Gen-X.

I wish I had written that (or even thought of it!). You are absolutely correct; when there is 15-20 years difference between rare models like the 6.3/6.9 and E500E, the potential buyer demographic is likely to be a generation apart too. Barring a meltdown of the economy, I think E500E values are likely to remain steady and/or increase gradually, at least into the near future.

Oh, my answer...NO ! No such thing as a 500e parts car.

I forgot to add by $0.02 on this: I believe there definitely IS such thing as a 500E parts car; but my definition pretty much is limited to cars that are either significantly damaged in an accident, or have substantial rust/corrosion issues. Bent unibodys cost a fortune to fix properly if they can be fixed at all; and once cancer takes hold it's either impossible or impractical to repair... and even if you can beat rust into remission, there's always a chance for a relapse.

 

[gerryvz]

I think a couple people nailed it:

- A car like this is probably too good to completely dismantle for parts, and has the potential to be driven into the ground for a while
- It's far too expensive to restore

So, the car will continue its slow, but inevitable, spiral into oblivion parts car-ville....per the presentation that I created 12-13 years ago, which I've attached.

 

[8899]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

We're going to see it with the 560SEC market too. I believe that another 20 years in the future, an E500E will be market-priced lower than (and at best, parity with), an equivalent 560SEC. Simply because the market says that coupes and convertibles are more desirable than sedans.

And that is the key thing to keep in mind as owners of an E500E.

 

[sheward]

A buyer pool generally exists for about 30 years and then begins to change. We tend to look at the one we are living in presently. I'm 60. When I became interested in cars Cords and Duisenberg's were bringing big money, somewhat regardless of whether they were convertibles or how many doors they had. In fact a rumble seat may have added value! I doubt many folks outside of museums are interested in them now but a VW microbus may get them excited. The collector car phenomena is only around 60 yrs. old.

drew

 

[gerryvz]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Smoke Silver / Cream Beige, 98kmi, $7500 (Metairie, LA)

500EBoard Cyber Bully values:
No such thing as perfect (1)...."maybe 600Eric's"
Excellent (2) = $13,000 "on a good day"
Average (3) = $5,600
Fair (4) = "no value due to deferred maintenance costs, cost prohibitive"
Poor (5) = "Its a parts car, let us vultures fight for it" "FIRST DIBBS ON THE FENDERS......"

PRICE BANDS
1) "600Eric" car, or a sub-10,000-mile car - value depends on seller/buyer -- $60-150K (Condition 1-1+)
2) Low miles original, driven but impeccably maintained, $5K deferred maint (<60K miles) -- $30-60K (Condition 1- to 2+)
3) Well-maintained and used car, honest, w/records, $5K deferred maint (60-100K miles) -- $25-35K (Condition 2 to 2-)
4) Well-maintained and used car, honest, normal cosmetics, $10K deferred maint (<200K miles) -- $18-25K (condition 2- to 3)
5) Maintained and well-used car, with mechanical and cosmetic issues -- $10-18K (Condition 3- to 4)
6) Well-used car, major issues, >150K miles, "drive and maintain basics", future parts car -- $8-12K (Condition 4 to 4-)
7) Rolling basket case, not really drivable, clear parts donor, accident(s) -- $5-8K (Condition 5)
8) Non-drivable parts car -- $5K (Condition 5- to 6)

 

[gerryvz]

I forgot one important category:

9) Extreme-mileage, well maintained/used, honest, cosmetic issues, $10K deferred maint, >500K miles -- $Pricele$$ (Condition 3)

 

[Jlaa]

Hi Gerry - your expertise and experience in classic MBs is unparalleled! Thanks for your observations.

In my view, most folks who were/are interested in Japanese cars, tended/tend not to be as much "into" American or European cars. And the same can be said for those who were interested in American cars -- Mustangs, Camaros and the like .. they tended to be American car people, and not Japanese car or European car folks.

I suspect this tendency to be a "American car guy" or "European car guy" changed --- starting with Gen-X folks who were born in the 70s and were kids in the 80s. If you were part of this generation (I certainly am) then you may be able to appreciate how *Everything* on the road looked like crap in those days. Vegas were crap. Ford Monarchs were crap. Anything that came out that was interesting grabbed your attention - whether it came from Japan, Europe, USA or whatever.

Coming of age in the 80s - post Carter / early Reagan / double-nickel / in the Gung-Ho Era with Michael Keaton (Anyone remember that movie?) --- you got the sense that the US was trying to re-discover its footing in a more global world --- and you gravitated to anything that was cool.

See Petrolicious for example --- there's a broad/universal appeal there --- target demographic - folks that think cool stuff is cool, regardless of national origin.

Simply because the market says that coupes and convertibles are more desirable than sedans.

I suspect this "rule" holds for folks pre-later-Gen-X. But for Gen-X that came of age in the 80s, I suspect this "rule" does not hold. At the time, the US auto industry was pushing hardware that tried to reinforce this message --- that coupes were cool. But it seemed to be a paradox. Monte Carlos weren't cool. Cordobas weren't cool. IROC-Zs were trying too hard. KITT was cool but that didn't means all TransAms were cool. K-car LeBarons sucked.

But then all of a sudden, in the late 80s and early 90s, there seemed to be a renaissance. The industry figured out how to make really interesting hardware again, and it did not have to be a coupe anymore.

- Mazda 626 Turbo Sedan - wow, interesting. C&D had an article on this -- I recall the intro line -- it was [paraphrased] "the number of 4 door cars faster than the 1990 626 Turbo to 60 mph under $30,000 can be counted on zero fingers..."

- Nissan - late 80s Maxima - 4DSC - remember that advertising campaign. It had 190 hp in SE form. That was A LOT!!!

- Chrysler - They put a 224 hp 4 cylinder in a Dodge Spirit!

- Ford -- they put a Yamaha 220hp 6 cylinder in the son-of-an-LTD!

To be fair, Ford also pumped out a late 80s Thunderbird SC coupe with a supercharged v6 (cool!!!!) and then GM pushed out the GM10 GrandPrix/Cutlass/Regal/etc variants (ummmm not so cool) --- but the observation is that all of a sudden, the hot ticket wasn't just 2 door coupes anymore.

And then --- in the early 90s --- what happens? MB introduces the 500E. MB drops the mike and walks off stage by introducing a 322 hp four door. That was cool --- at least to me.

A buyer pool generally exists for about 30 years and then begins to change. We tend to look at the one we are living in presently. I'm 60. When I became interested in cars Cords and Duisenberg's were bringing big money, somewhat regardless of whether they were convertibles or how many doors they had. In fact a rumble seat may have added value! I doubt many folks outside of museums are interested in them now but a VW microbus may get them excited. The collector car phenomena is only around 60 yrs. old.

drew

What a fantastically self-aware observation! Indeed I suspect that there is a breakpoint where tastes really change among 30 year tranches of car enthusiasts --- and perhaps that breakpoint occurs with folks that were born in the 70s and came of age in the 80s/90s. Drew, I admire your perspective as something that years of wisdom can bring.

Here is an observation. Perhaps the take-away from these two graphs below are the relative deltas of appreciation rather than the absolute numbers. I find it intriguing that two very similar cars with similar chassis and similar power plants --- an e28 M5 (4 door) and an e24 M6 (2 door) --- have experienced different appreciation curves over the same time.

Anyways --- I don't intend to turn this into an appreciation thread -- that would be kind of a killjoy. I'm interested in the differences in tastes displayed by different demographics as molded by their observations in their formative years.

 

[gerryvz]

One excellent resource for looking at the entire gamut of car collecting and buying/selling is Sports Car Market magazine. The auction summaries (not to mention the columns written about collectible cars and trends) are really excellent. MBs are not represented in the magazine any more than other marques, but I've been subscribing since 2001 and I have to say that the mag is a really nice identifier and tracker of trends.

For MB specific collecting and valuations, the SL Market Letter (which is about $75 a year) also provides great information. It's been published since the 1980s and under the current stewardship of new editor Dave Tobin (who visited captruff's expansive MB "complex" at Legends of the Autobahn) is really blossoming beyond its roots of car valuations and related commentary into a variety of topics.

 

[ALL500]

I dunno. You guys are the experts, I'm not. But I just don't get it. Do the harnesses and change the oil. If your tranny goes, slap a new one in. To me, these are the best things with four wheels and four doors. I can't see the justification for parting one out unless it's been wrecked or possessed by evil spirits. You can buy 1/2 a 911 shell, rusted out, around these parts for 30k. The 036 example above... it's like, oop tear in the seat... oh crack in the plastic... parts car! Huh???

 

[Stevester 500E]

+1, And I haven't seen any justification for the donor really helping keep another .036 alive.
In my opinion, even the Shatner car was salvageable.
Ultimately it's the owner who decides whether to part out a car or not.
Sometimes, the owner sells the car to someone for a really low price, and that person parts it out.

I dunno. You guys are the experts, I'm not. But I just don't get it. Do the harnesses and change the oil. If your tranny goes, slap a new one in. To me, these are the best things with four wheels and four doors. I can't see the justification for parting one out unless it's been wrecked or possessed by evil spirits. You can buy 1/2 a 911 shell, rusted out, around these parts for 30k. The 036 example above... it's like, oop tear in the seat... oh crack in the plastic... parts car! Huh???

 

[lowman]

definetly agree with you ,ALL500.

The car in the ad may not "look that perfect" ..and it did have its flaws...but whos to say WHO is willing to put in this or that amount of money ..to get themselves a 500e ...in the condition he or she wants....i dont think nobody can argue with that.

its all about personal taste..and what each individual would put into it..then it will be worth what its worth to the potential buyer.

nice discussion...with alot of interesting views and comments..but its abit pointless in a way i think

 

[gsxr]

The 036 example above... it's like, oop tear in the seat... oh crack in the plastic... parts car! Huh???

 

[Jlaa]

The 036 example above... it's like, oop tear in the seat... oh crack in the plastic... parts car! Huh???

C'mon, this is how we find enjoyment during the winter months when driving in rain/snow is a big "NOPE"....... Casting stones at absurd hypothetical scenarios using others' cars as examples. Surely we do this in jest!!!!!

 

[Kip]

I looked at 2 6.9 cars yesterday. Both are rough. One runs/drives, the other has fuel delivery issues. It's a shame they are in the shape they are in now. When I saw them over 2 years ago, they were salvageable (from a "maybe makes sense" affordability standpoint). They are now rusting in a field.

 

[gerryvz]

Kip, It's doubtful those 6.9s will ever get restored, because one would be looking at a good $100K apiece to bring them back to anything decent in terms of condition. Much easier to just spend $50K and get a low-miles/well-preserved 6.9 to enjoy.

 

[psportoveloce]

I think a couple people nailed it:

- A car like this is probably too good to completely dismantle for parts, and has the potential to be driven into the ground for a while
- It's far too expensive to restore

So, the car will continue its slow, but inevitable, spiral into oblivion parts car-ville....per the presentation that I created 12-13 years ago, which I've attached.

I'd like to argue for another possible outcome because I've seen it happen before and it's what I hope happens to this car. Someone with good (or bad) intentions buys it planning to freshen and drive it (or part it out), but loses traction/interest for whatever reason and it sits in dry storage, not deteriorating a whole lot more for another decade or two until E500Es are worth boatloads of money and we're all rich as a result and then some enthusiast marvels at its originality, snaps it up, and lovingly restores it.

Tongue in cheek-ery aside, if this car is preserved as it is for some years (most likely unintentionally), it might just transcend over to the "restoration is a no-brainer" territory eventually. I can't count how many cars I've bought/sold/brokered which have mercifully (but accidentally) been put on ice as a "someday" projects and therefore remained pleasantly intact and correct.

 

[Jlaa]

I'd like to argue for another possible outcome ......until E500Es are worth boatloads of money.....

This will only be true if demand rises in the future, or if supply shrinks significantly.

Gerry's [early Gen X] point is that since global production numbers of 6.3/6.9/E500E are roughly similar, that the supply curves for all three models will roughly be the same against time. Further, since 6.3/6.9 prices are very good but not super high, he postulates that E500Es in the future will also not have super high valuations. He is assuming similar demand for all three models against time.

My [mid Gen X] assumption is that demand for E500E will rise, against time, on a steeper basis than 6.3/6.9, because there is a smaller supply of interesting contemporary alternatives to the E500E to begin with.

We need a Gen Y representative to weigh in on projected future demand as well.


BTW all of this only looks at a global supply of 10K E500Es produced and does not factor in the fact that only 1500 were produced for the US market. The impending EPA 30 year rule may mitigate the effects of the currently artificially constrained supply of US legal E500Es somewhat. However, one must consider the "tax" of importation fees and hassle as well as the current uncertatinty in the US political climate and the seemingly increased US appetite for import tariffs / trade war style regulation.... many unintend consequences may result.

See the chicken tax as an example of such unintended consequences. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

 

[gerryvz]

Re: Is there a such thing as an E500E &quot;parts car&quot; ?!?

I have maintained unofficial calculations for years that say that approximately 60-65% of all E500Es produced, still remain or are operational. That would be around 6,500 cars worldwide.

Still quite a high number. Although every year the numbers go down a bit as cars are scrapped (parts cars) or succumb to accidents. We've seen more than a few of these here over the years.

I just can't see the E500E becoming a super-collector car in MB annals like the Pagoda, Gullwing, 190SL, 111/112 coupe & cabriolet, and in the future the 124 cabriolet and 560SEC (and very likely the R107 & R129 eventually) will be.

How many MB sedans have become super-collectible over the years? Only two I can think of: the Grand 600 (W100) and the 300 Adenauer (W189), particularly the Adenauer D series (final series).

And both of these were the top-of-the-mark limousines. Most with serious history and ownership provenance. Note that 2,677 W100 models of all types were manufactured.

The 6.3 and 6.9 are in a lower class of interest and appreciation (not to mention both long-body, top-of-the-mark S-class sedans) as compared to the W100 and W189. If you don't believe me, look at W100 and W189 price appreciation over the past 10-15 years. Examples are routinely hitting & surpassing $500-750K now. I can't ever recall a 6.3 (same era) going beyond $200-250K on an actual sale price.

The 500E is an E-class sedan. Not top of the mark (think V126 560SEL & V140 600SEL for that) and not long body. Niche interest. Notable, but niche.

History is instructive here. Very instructive.

Cheers,
Gerry


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