M117 VS. M119

[SELLC]

I am pretty much a M117 560 guy so forgive me if I am a little ignorant on the M119 Mercedes; however I was wondering what kind of horsepower differences there were between the SOHC M117 and the DOHC M119.

I don't have much first hand experience with the M119 engines, but from what I understand the M119 has the following advancements not found in the regular SOHC M117 such as

DOHC (Dual overhead cams)
Electronic Fuel Injectors
Digital Ignition (No distributor & a separate coil for each cylinder)
Mass air meter

The M117 has advantages such as

Larger Displacement
A now illegal to replicate (mechanical injector electronic pump fuel system.)

I have never run up on a 500E or any M119 equipped Mercedes on the highway however I suspect they must move pretty well. Just curious to know what the magic HP number is for the average M119 engine so that I may take this into consideration.

 

[Christian_K]

See there, theres a pretty nice summary written by a guy, who transplanted a M119 into a 560SEC
http://www.mbcoupes.com/memberscars/T/satishtummala/page1.htm

 

[gerryvz]

The M119 has two distributors and two coils. The coils are actually the same exact part that is used for the M117 (as are the fuel injection pumps). As I remember it, the M119 also has solenoid-controlled variable intake-valve timing.

Your average M119 is sitting at 315-330+ HP. 450-500 HP is easily possible with displacement increases and the addition of forced induction systems. Early M119s (used in W140s and R129s) used KE-Jetronic injection (119.96X series) wheras our 500Es used LH-injecton (119.97X series). There was also a later (M119.98X) series used in W210, later R129 and W140 cars.

In standard 5-liter MB guise, 119s produced around 315-325 HP.
AMG-tweaked E50 cars produced 352 HP.
AMG-tweaked E60 (6-liter) cars produced 381 HP.
There were a few 6.3-liter AMG cars (210 chassis) that produced 405 HP.
All of this using natural aspiration.

The thing (currently owning two M117s and an M119) is that the M119 breathes MUCH better than the M117 -- the M119's torque curve is EXTREMELY flat, whereas the 117 starts to run out of breath above 5,000 RPM. The 119 will pull as hard as it can to redline and beyond.

The 119 is just as durable as the 117, much more technically advanced, yet is a clear evolution of the 117. A few folks have put 5.6 crankshafts into their 119 blocks to bump their displacement -- only minor machining is needed to do this.

Unlike the M117 though, there is no "real" easy horsepower to be gained in an M119 without significant cost. We don't have crappy US-spec manifolds on the 119s that can be changed out for an easy 25 HP gain, or chips that can magically increase the HP, and so forth. MB did its job pretty well, even down to the exhaust systems.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Minor clarification: The M119 was used from 1990 through 1999, and came in three different confirgurations:

119.96x: Used in 1990-1992 R129.066 (500SL) chassis only, with mechanical CIS injection, and twin distributors (this is the 'tall deck' block)

119.97x: Used in 1992-1995 W124, W140, and R129 chassis, with electronic LH injection, and twin distributors (not used in 92 500SL)

119.98x: Used in 1996-1999 W140, W210, and R129 chassis, with electronic ME injection, and no distributors (coil-on-plug ignition)


The .96x version is significantly different than the later versions, not many parts are interchangeable. Otherwise, ditto everything Gerry stated above...

 

[SELLC]

Thanks for the clarification and HP numbers. I was aware of the early M119 engines having a similar fuel injection setup as the M117 however I always considered the early M119 to be a smaller version of the DOHC M117.

The ones I have worked on 1996 and later had the coil over plug setups and electronic fuel injectors and it was these animals that I had relative fear of when cruising the highway. Recently I run along side a S600 V12 on the highway, it was a chick driving it and I toyed with her a little but I always made sure my fender was just slightly behind hers for fear she would open it up and ruined my day.

I been working with a small nitrous setup made up of old parts from the numerous kits that I have installed over the years on Mustangs and Camaro's. I had a few successful runs with the kit back in early 2006 however I never took the time to mount it proper and thus just removed it until I had the time to do it right. I also wanted to wait until I could acquire a window switch as the FPR cuts the fuel and that is a serious problem waiting to happen when using nitrous.

Seems as though the kit I do have with 150 HP jets should put my M117 on par with even the AMG variety M119. Right now I assume I am pushing well over the standard 220 HP the M117 comes with from the factory because of the mods that I have made; many can't even be mentioned due to certain legalities I defiantly need to source some better manifolds too. I don't plan on drag racing my 560SEL but I do plan on using the nitrous on highway excursions in the rare event it is needed. Overall I just enjoy the reliability and ride quality and since my SEL is a daily driver I would like to refrain from anything that takes away from that, thus why I have always been a big fan of nitrous oxide.

I am however working on a "drag race" only SEC that is too far from being complete to even mention at the moment. I use that car to keep me from getting out of hand with the SEL that takes me to and fro each day.

 

[gerryvz]

M119s (whatever the injection type used) pretty much all developed the same level of HP, give or take. So the KE-injected units were literally the same HP as the LH-injected models that came after them. LH is a bit more efficient & precise than KE in terms of response, driveability and fuel usage, but in terms of power generation, very similar. I can't speak for the later ME-injected 119s as I've never owned one.

In terms of nitrous oxide. The BergWerks engineered kits utilize a 5-liter Mustang NOS (brand) dry kit that is adapted to the M119. My own nitrous system tested out to a true 100HP/100 lb-ft on the dyno, so I can say that it works. Also about a full second lower in the 1/4 mile at about 8-9 MPH higher terminal velocity at the 1/4 mile marker. Of course, nitrous (at least the way BergWerks engineered it) doesn't kick in right away, so it doesn't help off-the-line and 60' times.

It's pretty safe to do a 100-HP shot with the existing fuel system on a stock 119, using a dry type setup. Of course, if you add the complexity of a wet system into the mix, then more power is easily possible. With said dry system, more power is certainly possible, but you have to test the fuel injection system to ensure that enough pressure exists to supply enough fuel to go with the gas. Some cars have enough reserve pressure, others don't. My car tested out to go with a 125-HP shot, but I never did it. I think anything above a 125-HP shot (particularly 150HP and above) is really pushing it with a stock M119 fuel system using a dry nitrous-oxide setup.

The problem with nitrous is that it's excellent for drag racing and stoplight drags on the street, but pretty much useless for any other type of "real world" driving. A supercharger would be a much better setup but unfortunately it's VERY difficult to engineer one in under the hood on a 500E -- there just isn't enough bloody room to do it unless you really change some things around. There's much more room underhood on a M117 in a 126 chassis to do it.

Be careful with your nitrous setup and make sure you're providing enough fuel to go with the gas - you don't want to melt your pistons ;-)

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[SELLC]

I have found that nitrous does work instantaneously, unlike superchargers and turbo’s that require time to “spool” up. A supercharger can rob an engine anywhere from 20-30% of its power in addition to excessive engine heat soak. Turbos are a little more forgiving but often times take much longer than a supercharger to get spooled up. They too produce a great deal of heat.

I have run dual stage (dry + wet) nitrous kits on my Mustangs back in the mid 1990’s with great success on otherwise stock fuel pumps to the tune of 350 HP increases (150 dry + 200 wet). I have also installed countless dry kits on corvette, camaro and mustangs over the years as well. As mentioned in 2006 I had the pleasure of using a small dry kit with a 150 jet on my smoke silver 560 that I still drive daily today. I can tell you that my stock fuel pumps on my 560 SEL put out a little under 90 PSI when tested at the main line from pumps! I am more than confident the fuel pressure is adequate and often times you will find included in most ALL dry nitrous kits in excess of 100 hp a helper pump that is near identical to the ones used in our vehicles. Most ALL kits use a forum of vacuum that is derived from passing nitrous over an orifice in order to keep the fuel pressure regulator closed; hence keeping pressures at the injectors maxed out to prevent fuel starvation. Other safety items such as ignition cut off, fuel pressure sensors, RPM window switches, and full throttle activation switches can easily be wired into the solenoids to prevent many engine fatalities common with nitrous. From there you just have to focus on retarding the timing when the kit is active, however I have only found this to be necessary when using multiple kits in excess of 150 HP. I have on occasion melted all 8 plugs on my Mustang when running the dual stage kits.

Unlike turbos and superchargers Nitrous Oxide does not sap the engine of any horsepower when being used. It also does not put unnecessary heat and wear on the engine when not in use like turbos and superchargers. Since nitrous is injected into the engine at below freezing temperatures it makes for a very dense air charge. Often times you see people with superchargers and turbos get smoked by Nitrous equipped vehicles in bracket racing because superchargers and turbos are no where near as consistent due to the heat involved in those setups. Maintaining consistent bottle pressure is however paramount when bracket racing in order to remain consistent.

I have to agree with you on just about everything you said with the exception of the statement you made regarding nitrous not kicking in right away. A good nitrous set up will work INSTANTLY. I have never been a big fan of BergWorks products, and I think if you weren’t getting instant response from the nitrous they either did a poor job designing the kit, or your kit may not have been installed properly. Outside of traction problems there is really no need to have a delay in the activation of nitrous (IE progressive kits). On small kits under 150 HP it's really pointless. Many makers of nitrous oxide kits will recommend using nitrous at RPM’s above 1500 however I have found that to be hog-wash. What is important is that the solenoids only open up under wide open throttle, part throttle nitrous usage is VERY dangerous and any nitrous kit should have a full throttle activation switch in addition to the arming switch.

That’s pretty much what I have learned over the past 20 years using and installing nitrous oxide systems. One other trick that I will share with you all is this… When running a wet nitrous kit it’s a VERY good idea to have a dry kit working with it (IE Dual stage). I have found that a wet kit is far much less likely to have pop-backs when a dry kit is helping to force/atomize the wet kit. My 2 cents.

I should also note that melting pistons is not exclusive to just nitrous. I have attached a photo of a melted piston I pulled out of an engine that was turbo charged. The same thing can happen with a supercharger. Melting the piston just means you leaned the sucker out.

 

[SELLC]

I should also mention that the more advanced ignition systems with a coil per cylinder and digital ignitions do net more horsepower than traditional distributor/arc style ignitions, while the number is somewhat nominal (15-30 HP) it does help. It also allows for better tuning and less maintenance. It has been proven that an ignition system using a single coil does get taxed on the higher RPM’s where as individual coils per cylinder set-ups do not suffer from that condition. The down side to the coil per cylinder set up is cost to repair/replace. While it’s usually never that all 8 coils (in some cases 12) go bad at once, I have found that when one dies the others are not far behind. Do the math on 8 coils and the cost is somewhat staggering even if spread over 10 years. You also have modules, pickups and of course the plugs too; dont forget the mass air units, MAP sensors and all the other sensors that go with the digital ignitions because they too fail. As with any vehicle these new systems cost more and and the market is not saturated with used/aftermarket parts like the older models, often times meaning you have to buy brand new parts. Sometimes you can get lucky and source good used parts for newer vehicles but it's rare, even more so if you are broke down and need the part NOW to get back on the road.

 

[gerryvz]

Yes, the coils, caps and rotors for the M119 (in 500E/E500 form) are expensive enough; if we had to replace coil packs that would really boost the price up there. Luckily I've not had any real problems with the coil packs on the two 1995 E320 wagons (M104 engines that use the ME ignition/injection system) I've owned, so my perception is they are pretty reliable and long-lasting.

The 500E/E500 EZLs tend to be another part that goes out, eventually. And while these are available used, they are quite a bit more expensive (even used) than the EZLs for the 560s (I guess it's supply and demand). Last time I checked, Benz wanted more than $3,200 for a new EZL for the 500E. Usually they can be had for $400-800 used though. But it is a weak point that more than a few of us have had fail on our cars. They don't seem to fail nearly so frequently on the M117s despite being a nearly identical part. Weird.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

I have to agree with you on just about everything you said with the exception of the statement you made regarding nitrous not kicking in right away. A good nitrous set up will work INSTANTLY. I have never been a big fan of BergWorks products, and I think if you weren’t getting instant response from the nitrous they either did a poor job designing the kit, or your kit may not have been installed properly. Outside of traction problems there is really no need to have a delay in the activation of nitrous (IE progressive kits). On small kits under 150 HP it's really pointless. Many makers of nitrous oxide kits will recommend using nitrous at RPM’s above 1500 however I have found that to be hog-wash. What is important is that the solenoids only open up under wide open throttle, part throttle nitrous usage is VERY dangerous and any nitrous kit should have a full throttle activation switch in addition to the arming switch.

The BergWerks kit was designed to be conservative with the RPM window settings; it activates at 3000rpm and deactivates at 5900rpm. The stock torque converter on a 500E flashes to about 1900rpm at launch so NOS will not affect the launch off the line. However, the 60' mark comes up at around 30mph, which is roughly 4500rpm in 1st gear (with stock 2.82 gears and stock tire size)... NOS activates at 3000rpm which is roughly 20mph. So yes, the NOS will help 60' times as the NOS system is engaging prior to the 60' mark... it's just not active for very long, probably a few tenths of a second. Once past the 1-2 upshift, RPM's never drop below 3000 so the NOS system remains engaged until you lift off the throttle (or, until one of the system safety measures kick in, i.e. low fuel pressure, etc).

This can be adjusted of course, triggering it at more like 2500rpm is probably fine, I'm not sure I'd want it to kick in sooner than 2200 or 2000 as there would be more possibility of breaking traction at launch, which of course spoils the fun. I would be interested to hear the technical reason(s) why BergWerks set the engagement point so high. I understand the 5900rpm cutout to help reduce the load on the transmission upshifts (which occur at approx 6000rpm). Engaging the NOS earlier should cut down the 60' times (and also the ET) by a tenth or two, which is significant. Drag radials are required at this level, you're not gonna see 60's down in the 1.9's or 1.8's on street tires.

 

[gerryvz]

Dave -- this is not correct. One of the operating parameters for the BergWerks NOS systems is that it will NOT fire in first gear. My timeslip comparisons for NOS and non-NOS runs additionally confirm that there is absolutely NO difference in 60' times.

SELLC: BergWerks designed their NOS kit with multiple levels of safety built in, so that the system will not grenade the motor. Some of these fail-safes include:

- only fires in second or higher gear
- only fires when a wide-open throttle position is sensed
- only fires within a certain RPM window
- only fires at appropriate fuel pressure

The BergWerks kit is also wired into the resistor cap on the EZL so it is receiving a signal from there as well.

Activation is automatic. Yes, it's conservative, but I've yet to hear anyone with a BergWerks kit installed, kill their motor. Like I said, the way BergWerks engineered their nitrous kit, it doesn't fire instantaneously on the drag strip, but as you said that doesn't mean that other types of nitrous installs don't fire instantly.

Cheers,
Gerry

P.S. I will pull my copy of the BergWerks nitrous system install directions tonight when I get home and provide some additional details of the safety functionality that was built into the system.

 

[gsxr]

Gerry, this isn't possible - the BW system has no ability to determine what gear the tranny is in, and it cannot prevent engaging in 1st gear. The testing instructions reference flooring the pedal to trigger a kickdown to 2nd gear, but that is because the test speed is 60mph, above the max limit for 1st gear. You might want to check your BW documentation again... and also your RPM switch settings? Maybe yours was set to engage at a higher RPM?

 

[gerryvz]

I went right to the source for info -- Steve Lemberg, designer of the BergWerks kit. He responded to me right away.

I was wrong in that there is no restriction on use/firing of the BergWerks nitrous system in first gear (so you are correct, Dave); however it must reach the RPM window as one of the pre-conditions in order to activate. Generally speaking, this is set at a point (depending where the upshift is, and using an adjustable FGS kit could also affect this) where it just doesn't realistically happen in first gear.

Where I was correct (and again this is 100% backed up by my own timeslips), and where Steve confirmed it, is that "60-foot times would be unboosted at the start" due to the nitrous kit not firing prior to this. Steve also said that lowering the activation RPM "could help, at the expense of possibly losing rings."

Hope this helps clarify. I will edit my previous post where I was wrong. In my own mind I was confusing the fact that the nitrous never really fired in first gear (by design) with the fact that it was somehow hard-programmed not to.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Gerry, thanks for the update! However if the NOS engages at 3000rpm, it is engaging during the first 60 feet of a dragstrip launch, as I described above. Steve and I agree that it does not do anything at the beginning of the 60' (takeoff from a dead stop)... but at 3krpm, the NOS fires before the 60' beam is crossed and therefore has *some* effect on 60' times. Maybe not much, but the only way it wouldn't is if NOS didn't fire until after the 60'.

I would like to know more about why the rings would be damaged if the NOS fires at an RPM below ~3000. Did anyone ever break an M119 during testing due to this?

 

[gsxr]

Interesting thread about activating NOS below 3000rpm:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/nitrous-o...tivation-would-you-spray-below-3-000-rpm.html

Basically there is no simple answer, it depends on the gearing, torque converter stall speed, etc.... and largely on the amount of the NOS power increase. With only a 75 or 100 shot, there would be less risk of damage. But when you're up in the 150- to 200-shot (or higher) range, it gets a lot more risky. Some folks on that thread are spraying when they floor it at the launch (!!) without grenading the motor, but they usually don't share enough details to determine the risk level. This guy is probably pushing his luck, despite surviving a few hundred runs, I dunno if I'd want to copy his method!

I can understand why Steve says to spray above 3000rpm, but I also suspect the risk would be minimal with a 100 shot at 2800 or 2600rpm. Given the high cost of a head gasket replacement on the M119, it's probably not worth the risk though. Better to put in a higher stall converter to aid the launch (which would also get the engine to 3k more quickly, therefore engaging NOS sooner, at a safe RPM).

 

[gerryvz]

I've seen that page too in the past. You're plenty safe with a 100-shot, plus it's a nice round number. And like I said I had (back in 2004, at least) plenty of reserve fuel pressure to handle a 125-shot, and I confirmed this with Carl at the time and I bought the nozzle -- just never installed it. I wouldn't (personally) ever go more than 125 HP (again, safety margin) with a stock LH system. I think to be safe -- if more power is desired on an M119 -- one would want to convert over to a wet system.

As for the BergWerks 3K activation RPM threshold, I think it's just basically Carl and Steve were being very very conservative with their implementation. Not a bad thing in several ways -- 119/722.3 drivetrains aren't exactly cheap, and it also protected them from (even potential) lawsuits or claims. You know how litigious people are these days !! If I was them, I'd have been just as conservative. Could you go 2K RPM and get away with it? I'm sure you could and probably get away with it for a long, long time.

Also, when I bought my kit from them, mine was the first kit that Carl/Steve did not install on a car themselves, personally. I had a number of consultation calls with them and my mechanic at MBI Motors in Portland to be sure that things were installed exactly as BergWerks intended. The instructions and all BergWerks documentation were EXCELLENT, but Carl/Steve were quite concerned about the quality of the install given they didn't know my indy shop (in reality they had absolutely nothing to worry about, but how do you communicate that via email and over the phone?!?). My car is still kicking just fine, 7 years later !! Admittedly I don't use the nitrous but perhaps a couple of times per year nowadays, but when I was actively drag racing on Friday and Saturday nights at Portland International Raceway for the three or four seasons I did, I probably had close to 100 nitrous runs in with absolutely no problems.

That reminds me -- I need to get my bottle re-certified.... it's past its "pull date"

SELLC: Can you tell us why you don't like the BergWerks products? I have two of their first-gear start kits installed in my 560SEC and in my E500, as well as a nitrous kit (obviously) on my E500. I also have their "one-touch windows" kit for my 560SEC although I've never installed it, and I ordered quite a number of parts from them back in the day, such as my Euro headlights for my 126 coupe. Have their shift-gate switch (OE Mercedes) installed on my E500. Never had any sort of issue with the quality or cost of what they did. Excellent installation instructions, good/OE/OEM factory quality parts, and so on. So I'm interested in the reason behind your perceptions. Did you have any direct experience with their stuff?

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Gerry, I agree... but I think all that's needed to safely use a 150 shot is high-volume aftermarket fuel pumps. I don't think any other mods are required. Justin (J-sauce) had investigated this, maybe he can chime in on that subject.

I'm not sure what the limit is on the stock fuel injectors, but I have a feeling they may run out of capacity around 500hp or so (which is roughly what I'd expect with a 150-shot setup). Beyond that, a wet system would likely be required; which gets more complicated. I'd have an ear to ear grin with a 150 shot though. Heh-heh...

 

[gerryvz]

I'd have an ear to ear grin with a 150 shot though. Heh-heh...

You'd have an ear-to-ear grin with a 100-shot, believe you me ...

 

[gsxr]

Link to thread with details of Justin's 500E NOS installation, dyno charts, and timeslip:

http://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w124/366135-running-mod-thread-my-n2o-92-500e-pics-videos.html

 

[J-Sauce]

Most of the questions presented here are addressed in my mod thread, but I'll mention a few things here.

The BergWerks kit comes with the window switch preset to close @3000RPMs. I have mine running safely now @2850RPMs and also 125 shot instead of 100. My 60's have not improved yet. Actually, they have gotten WORSE. The reason is that I am losing traction when nitrous engages. Gerry, I would bet that yours have stayed the same because you are also losing a bit of traction for a moment, but because you are only running 100 shot, you gain traction and 'catch' your ghost run without nitrous right around the 60' mark. Sounds far fetched, I know, but feasible. I agree with Dave; If nitrous is activating before the 60' mark, and you have traction, your time has got to improve. I am running an aftermarket fuel pump (Walbro GSL392) to keep my AFR's safe.

The BergWerks kit is also wired into the resistor cap on the EZL so it is receiving a signal from there as well.

This is incorrect, Gerry. The wires going to the EZL are not receiving any signal at all. Without revealing too much sensitive data, I will say that the kit is manipulating the timing map the EZL uses so ignition is retarded.

 

[gsxr]

Justin, a few questions about the Walbro:

1) Did you install two of them, replacing both factory pumps?
2) Are they 100% plug & play - same dimensions, fittings, wiring, etc?
3) Where did you buy the Walbro(s)?

 

[gerryvz]

There is an electrical signal passed between the EZL trimming plug (cap) and the main nitrous control relay underhood, via two blue leads. I promised Carl and Steve years ago not to disclose details on how (as they explained it to me) the system works, nor to ever post the documents I have describing the system's operating, troubleshooting and installation on the internet. And to be honest (and it's obvious from my previous misstatement about the 1st gear restriction) I don't remember all of the details, because it was 2004 when I purchased this kit. But I am very confident to say that there are two physical wires going between the trim plug and to terminals 4 and 6 on the main nitrous control relay. At least there are on my car. I guess you can deduce the rest from there. Not disagreeing with anything posted, but....

FYI -- my car's nitrous activation window is between 3,000 and 5,900 RPM.

With regard to the 0-60' times -- all I can say is that my times were dead even whether using nitrous or not. No theory, I just went by the numbers. I NEVER detected nitrous activating (no butt dyno needed -- more like a back [in seat] dyno) until WELL after the 60' mark, I will say that.

I mean, I'll go through some random timeslips here:

non-nitrous runs: 2.180, 2.225, 2.128, 2.146

nitrous runs: 2.123, 2.167, 2.219, 2.178, 2.173, 2.162

With regard to traction -- as far as I know, I never had a traction problem after I started running the BF Goodrich drag radials on the rear on the 16" steel wheels. I don't think traction was an issue.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[J-Sauce]

Just one Walbro replaced both factory pumps and puts out more LPH (Liters per Hour) thank both of the factory pumps combined. I was able to mount it in the stock bracket for the bottom pump. The pumps are a bit modular. They come in a few configurations for the main body with different flow directions, and there are a million fittings that allow the pumps to be used in any application. The only problem is finding the right fittings for your application. Luckily, the company I ordered mine from had experience with a few Porsche and BMW Bosche pumps from that period and was able to guarantee a kit they assembled. The records I have for the shop says they're called DrAutomotive and they are located in LA. I no longer see Walbro pumps on their website or ebay store, but I had to call last year anyway to get my kit put together. Here's the number I have for them: 888-841-8288. I want to say the gentlemen I spoke to was named Bob.

ADMIN EDIT: The phone number above is connected with this website: http://www.gsl392.com/

 

[J-Sauce]

With regard to the 0-60' times -- all I can say is that my times were dead even whether using nitrous or not. No theory, I just went by the numbers. I NEVER detected nitrous activating (no butt dyno needed -- more like a back [in seat] dyno) until WELL after the 60' mark, I will say that.

I mean, I'll go through some random timeslips here:

non-nitrous runs: 2.180, 2.225, 2.128, 2.146

nitrous runs: 2.123, 2.167, 2.219, 2.178, 2.173, 2.162

With regard to traction -- as far as I know, I never had a traction problem after I started running the BF Goodrich drag radials on the rear on the 16" steel wheels. I don't think traction was an issue.

Cheers,
Gerry

I haven't really paid attention to the 60' markers at my track and compared when nitrous activates. I'll make sure to keep an eye out next time.

As for the EZL plug mod, I'd be happy to refresh your memory via PM if you care to know exactly what is going on. I did install my kit myself last year and have very intimate knowledge of every part that was included. I spent hours upon hours on the phone with Steve, and even had him in my garage during one part of the installation.

 

[SELLC]

NOS is actually a “Brand” of nitrous kits sold and a damn good one with a proven history for reliability and quality. I am somewhat offended to read you referring to BergWerks conservative nitrous kits as NOS. Reeks of false advertisement and gives BergWerks more credit than they deserve. Then again BergWerks kit could just be a re-branded NOS kit, thus not even deserving to mention BergWerks at all.

Just my two cents.

For people with a soft sport for BergWerks don’t feel bad, Edelbrock re-brands NOS components as their own too. Sounds to me like the people at BergWerks are too conservative for my tastes. Nothing like launching with nitrous with a set of slicks @ 10.5 psi, some VHT during the burn out and a full bottle heated up with a mini-propane torch! While it’s not recommended for bracket racing, using this method on the street can net you a SERIOUS advantage out of the hole and the rest of the way down the road. Bottle warmers just don’t compare. I have pulled cars off trailers only to make them look bad using this method

 

[gerryvz]

The BergWerks kit is indeed a base, off-the-shelf NOS (brand) kit for a 5-Liter Mustang (per my statement in post #6). BergWerks put a LOT of intellectual property and 119-specific engineering into the kit to integrate with the 124.036, so it's fair to give both credit in the same sentence. I wish M119s were as common and as cheap as 289s, 302s, 351s, 390s, 350s, 305s, and the like, but they're not. They're not even as cheap as M117s.

I've yet to know anyone in the MB world take a US-style hot-rod approach with an M119. I'm sure it's been done, but...

I can speak for myself and say that if I wanted a hot-rod, I'd probably go and buy a new 2011 Mustang or Camaro, drop 5 grand worth of "go-fast" parts onto it, and go have fun. Just like all of the yahoos do around here in Houston. But that's the point -- why be like everyone else? The car shows are full of row after row of new-retro Camaros, Challengers, Mustangs, and the like with the same (what I call) "bolt-on BS" on them.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[SELLC]

If what you say about BergWerks using NOS products to make up their kits is true; then it’s safe to say they have very little to do with the technology behind the kit outside of reverse engineering the system to fit an application that is not popular enough for NOS to make any money selling. I personally think any company that re-brands a product like this is just kidding themselves. Ill give them props for their reverse engineering but the credit goes to NOS.

I have set up some pretty advanced systems in my day but never have I tried to claim it as my own. That alone says a lot about BergWerks in of itself. I understand this person is in business to make money and that’s all fine and dandy but I can’t say I think highly of someone for figuring out how to wire relays and switches to a set of solenoids.. Somewhat remedial if you ask me.

I suppose the fact that I often hear about BergWerks on that loser forum known as BW.ORG has had a lot to do with the loss of respect and what I have read here isn’t helping matters either. If they claim they have conservative measures to aviod a lawsuit then I suggest they get with the program and make up some disclaimer literature and include it with their instructions because NOS has been selling kits for years. I don’t know if many of you know this but NOS brand nitrous kits are really just a division of Holley.

With regards to the M119 engines being expensive to repair, well I got news for you; most modern day DOHC engines of today (Ford, GM and Chrysler) are just as costly to repair when serious internal damage is done. To that I say “No guts, No glory”. I have built for others and owned personally many American muscle cars and they are lots of fun no doubt, but I yearn for a US style hot-rod Mercedes of the W126 vintage.

About the only newer style Mercedes that gives me wood is the S550, now that ride is very sexy and VERY aggressive looking. That’s not to say I wouldn’t pick up an S class M119 equipped if the price was right, just that the W126 has done right by me.

I am glad to hear that there are other people putting the sauce to Mercedes engines, and you all seem to be having fun. That is what’s most important ultimately. While I would never buy a BergWerks kit it’s not because I have had problems with anything they offer, just that as a matter of pride I could not bring myself to buy a re-boxed 5.0 kit from a second hand source. I would imagine my unique circumstances are not the norm and as such I am sure BergWerks will do just fine without my business. My adverse feelings are purely competitive and I am not hating on them. I wish them all the best, even if they are a bit too conservative for my taste.