M119 aftermarket camshafts

[gsxr]

Posting for reference, since 500Ecstasy is still down:

Hagmann AutoSporting (click here)
UPDATE AUGUST 2012: As noted in this post, Hagmann no longer offers M119 camshafts, and will not accept custom orders. They are NLA.

Price: €1428 (incl. 19 % MwSt.) ... est €1200 without VAT, or approx $1500 USD at current exchange rates

Valve lift: 10,4mm,
Duration 264° Intake, 252° Outtake.

Rough Google translation:
"4 piece sports cam shafts for the Mercedes M119 V8 engines in 420/500E/S/SL. Kept fully suitable for manual or automatic transmission. To install the shafts, we recommend special valve springs (set price: € 360) on motors with conical springs must be [erstzt] in any case together with the retainers. The shafts alone bring approximately 21hp on 4.2L, with 5.0L full 30-35hp. The controls for LH and Motronic should be adjusted, otherwise you lose half of the extra performance!"



dbilas Dynamic (click here)

Price: €673 (incl. 19% VAT) ... est €565 without VAT, or approx $750 USD at current exchange rates

Mercedes 4.2L - 6.0L V8 4V (M119) / Regrind standard camshafts
E500 / S500 / SL500 (engine M119); Applikation: Road
Duration: 260
Peak timing: 112
Valve lift: 10.3
Lift at TDC: 0.7
Valve timing: 18/62 - 62/18
Some camshafts require reinforced valve springs. We ask of you to inquire the necessity of reinforced valve springs.


For reference, stock 1993-up 5.0L camshafts have 8.9mm intake lift, 8.35mm exhaust lift. Increasing lift to 10.3mm is significant and might require the valve springs to be replaced as well.

 

[T-500]

Dave;
Do you think that Hagland's claimed gains could be easily realised?
Timing , LH adjustment, valvesprings - would this be a troublesome, major $$$-sucking job?

Any idea about how this would affect the drivability of the car in traffic, on the road?

 

[gsxr]

Do you think that Hagland's claimed gains could be easily realised?
Timing, LH adjustment, valvesprings - would this be a troublesome, major $$$-sucking job? Any idea about how this would affect the drivability of the car in traffic, on the road?

Those are all good questions and they are all still unknowns, for now. Replacing just the camshafts isn't too bad, but replacing valve springs is a much bigger job (and not fun). Paying a shop to do this could be pretty spendy.

My opinion is that their claimed power gains are realistic, but it's unclear what specifically is needed to attain those gains. I'm curious if a custom EPROM is really needed, or if the existing LH module adaptation will compensate for the change. I was hoping it was more along the lines of dropping in a cam with existing springs. In that case, I'd be tempted to give it a whirl. I have a feeling that the dbilas cams with 10.3mm (claimed) lift may not work with stock springs.

The price between the two vendors is quite different; I'd like to verify that dbilas's price is for all four cams and/or if they require a core to be sent in. Guess we should try emailing them for more info, eh? I'd be willing to try a set for <$1k if it really does translate into +30hp.

About driveability: There was mention of this in a different thread, where someone had aftermarket cams in their M119 (might have been an SL, can't remember). Supposedly there was minimal loss of idle quality or low-end torque, with a noticeable gain up top. Which is exactly what I'm looking for. I don't want to lose much on the bottom end.

 

[gerryvz]

Wow, makes M117 aftermarket / performance cams a bargain by comparison !!

That's a LOT of bucks for only 30-35 HP!

The more of these "performance" enhancements I see for the M119, the gladder I am I went with NOS back in the day (even with its use restrictions). Still don't see any better mod excepting supercharging, but even for that you're looking at $10K+ in parts and labor.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Agreed, it ain't cheap, but if it's a legit (dyno proven!) 30-35hp gain for <$2k that's really not too bad, since there are so few items which add ANY power to the M119.

It's a shame the supercharging kits are so expensive. The only one I'm aware of is the Albrex/Koenig (same as used on the TGA car in TX). That's >$20k for ~100hp gain - ouch. Custom fabbing a bolt-on at lower cost seems great until you get to the LH tuning part; that's where we don't know what Albrex did inside their add-on black box controller.

Just curious, what kind of power gains are realized on the M117, and at what cost? dbilas offers M117 cams too (click here) but again it isn't clear if that price is each or for a pair; and what the power gain would be.

I sent dbilas a message inquiring about the M119 cams, I'll update this thread if/when I get a response.

 

[T-500]

Dbila cams: one wonders if they are cheaper because the lobes are not as hard, and therefore, don't wear as well. A less expensive manufacturing process or cheaper materials might be used?

Valve springs: could the specification of stronger springs be due to the increased lift of the aftermarket cams? More lift=more spring travel, therefore more wear on the stock springs resulting in less reliability/durability. I could see catastrophic failure at high revs. eek!

Do you think that is the primary concern?

 

[195910]

The Dbilas cams are regrind from the original cams, they require the cams to be sent for modification.

Any companies in the US that could do the regrind ?

Not sure if the $$$$ is worth it. Your looking at about $3000+ labour for the Hagmann setup ( cams,springs,ECU).

 

[gsxr]

The Dbilas cams are regrind from the original cams, they require the cams to be sent for modification. Any companies in the US that could do the regrind ?

Not sure if the $$$$ is worth it. Your looking at about $3000+ labour for the Hagmann setup (cams, springs, ECU).

I believe Hagmann also offers regrinds. (??) I don't know of any new hi-perf cams other than AMG items (i.e., the M119 E50/E60 cams). I would install the parts myself (no labor cost) but it could be ~$2k for cams & springs from Hagmann.

The E50/E60 cams (if available) are $4k-$5k per set from MB. One advantage to the AMG cams is that they work with stock valve springs.

 

[Christian_K]

I was the guy posting the Dbilas and Hagmann Data in the 500ecstasy Forums some time ago.

Dbilas:
The Dbilas ones are regrinded ones, means you take your old used camshafts to them and they regrind them. Dbilas is just ~5km away from me ^^ Idle will be stable and their is no ECU modification required. However power-gains was only around 25HP.
EDIT: Of course you do need changed Valve-Springs for the Dbilas ones! Dimitri told me that by mail and also you can see it on the homepage Type "71.900.001
". The Spring-kit had costed something like 265€ or so... The Price is not listed anymore on his Homepage unfortunately.

Hagmann:
The Hagmanns instead are entirely new ones. Hagman offers EVERY Profiles possible/imaginable on the M119, so they can manufacture you whatever profile you like, fully symetric ones means inlet/outlet equeal, etc. Depends on use or at which RPMs you want to have the most gains.
The Power gains from Hagmann are 100% realistic and they will verify it to you with before/after dyno runs. Also the power-gains they listed are with stock intake/outlet and stock heads.
ECU Modification is needed, or roughly 50% of possible power-gain is not going to get used. I have written them countless times what exactly is changed in the ECU, but they wont tell me.

If you polish/extrude-hone + portmatch your intakes and outlets, they told me by mail, then the gains will be even higher. In that email they sent me, they reached dyno-verified 375HP (DIN) on their Dyno with a polished intake/outtake + portmatched M119 5.0 and the above listed camshafts!

Hagmann is by the way in german Forums a very well known M119 specialist. On a comparision between various 6L M119s in the W210 chassis, the Hagmann pushed the most power on the dyno, more than a AMG and way more than a 6.0 Brabus ;-)
I know a guy which has 4 6L M119 cars in W210 chassis, 1 6.0L is from Hagmann, one from MKB, one is E60AMG the other is a Brabus E6.0. He bough the Hagmann car directly from Hagmann as a bargain, it was a order from a collector of middle-east but never picked up after ordering.

Picture of Hagmann:

 

[gsxr]

Thanks, Christian! I couldn't remember the info from the other forum, and it's been down so long I've about given up on it coming back to life.

Is there any chance you could get dyno graphs from any M119.97x engine with either dbilas or Hagmann cams installed? Also, do any of the Hagmann cams work with stock valve springs? I'd really prefer not to change the springs. Hopefully Hagmann would install the LH EPROM chip via mail (i.e., we send them the module, they install chip and return it) rather than insisting the car be physically present. There's absolutely no need for that if they have installed a particular cam+chip into an engine before. They should be able to ship me cams & chip so I can install them myself.

I doubt many people will be willing to pay $$$$ without seeing SOME kind of dyno graph first. I wonder if Bernard's mystery cams on his 430hp 6.0L engine were Hagmann cams.

 

[gerryvz]

M117s are extremely cheap and easy to mod compared to M119s. There's a guy who is making AMG regrind cams for very cheap right now (high quality), and combined with a relatively simple solid lifter conversion, and maybe a 9:1-->10:1 compression bump, and 20-25 EASY horsepower gain just by switching the restrictive US exhaust to a Euro setup, you can pull a M117 up to the 300+ HP range from the stock US 238 HP for cheap. They respond well to HP changes.

However, the better thing to do would just to go and buy a brand new, never used spare Euro ECE long-block (MB surplus) from my friend Marc van de Velde in Belgium. $4K out the door, everything brand new. Then all you'd have to do is purchase manifolds (from him), fab downpipes (easy to do), hi-flow cats, and do some minor changes to the CIS-E system to throw it in. The Euro ECEs were 300HP stock (remember US was 238). There was also a "de-tuned" Euro M117 that had ~280HP -- that was the catalyzed version.

There's also plenty of ability to turb or supe a M117 too, if you want to go that route. Been done many times.

My car is 22 years old now. At 25 years it becomes exempt, and I can put whatever (cat-less) I want into it. I will prob go the long-block route. Marc will give me a "friends and family" discount.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Christian_K]

Thanks, Christian! I couldn't remember the info from the other forum, and it's been down so long I've about given up on it coming back to life.

Is there any chance you could get dyno graphs from any M119.97x engine with either dbilas or Hagmann cams installed? Also, do any of the Hagmann cams work with stock valve springs? I'd really prefer not to change the springs. Hopefully Hagmann would install the LH EPROM chip via mail (i.e., we send them the module, they install chip and return it) rather than insisting the car be physically present. There's absolutely no need for that if they have installed a particular cam+chip into an engine before. They should be able to ship me cams & chip so I can install them myself.

I doubt many people will be willing to pay $$$$ without seeing SOME kind of dyno graph first. I wonder if Bernard's mystery cams on his 430hp 6.0L engine were Hagmann cams.

Well, there are no dyno graphs available unfortunately. I have asked both Dbilas and Hagmann about it, as i was requesting all that Information.
However Hagmann said if you are going to their shop with your car they can make before/after test and prov their claimed power-gains. Of course valve-springs are strongly needed, when you have the "conical" valve-spring types you even have to replace their spring-cups! Price is 360€ for new springs.
Also i just checked my emails again about the strogly suggested ECU-Mod together with these cams. The ECU-Mod is not included in the price and will cost around 476€ on Top.
Also as a correction, its not 375HP (DIN) as i have written, its indeed "only" 370HP (DIN) which was the most power Hagmann could achieve with these camshafts + cylinder-head rework on a M119 5.0.

This is the Data for the Hagmann-Cams in their shop:

Valve lift: 10,4mm,
Duration 264° Intake, 252° Outtake.
Spread: variable via stock camshaftadjustment of the M119.

Link to 500Ecstasy Forums Topic: http://www.500ecstasy.com/forums//showt ... to=newpost


Ohh Dave, Bernard did reply me a day ago (sorry for not informing you, i was busy).
He did not told me what camshafts exactly that were, he just said that the camshafts alone were a custom-built model ordered by him, however no data about manufacturer, duration, timing whatsoever. Price over 4000€ for all 4 . Same goes for the gears - However no Price information here. Also the rest of the further reworked head and intake was also custom and time-consuming so it was all-in-all a very very expensive tuning.

 

[gsxr]

Well, there are no dyno graphs available unfortunately. I have asked both Dbilas and Hagmann about it, as i was requesting all that Information.
However Hagmann said if you are going to their shop with your car they can make before/after test and prov their claimed power-gains. Of course valve-springs are strongly needed, when you have the "conical" valve-spring types you even have to replace their spring-cups! Price is 360€ for new springs.
Also i just checked my emails again about the strogly suggested ECU-Mod together with these cams. The ECU-Mod is not included in the price and will cost around 476€ on Top.

Hmmm. That's a real shame they won't post a sample dyno graph. You know they have some available! So, it adds up to about €1900 total after subtracting VAT. Still not cheap, but within reason if it's a properly engineered package with cams, springs, and EPROM chip. As long as they will ship the EPROM chip and not require the car to be present, this is still feasible.

Also as a correction, its not 375HP (DIN) as i have written, its indeed "only" 370HP (DIN) which was the most power Hagmann could achieve with these camshafts + cylinder-head rework on a M119 5.0.

Heh-heh. I could suffer along with "only" 370hp from a 5.0 engine.

This is the Data for the Hagmann-Cams in their shop:
Valve lift: 10,4mm,
Duration 264° Intake, 252° Outtake.
Spread: variable via stock camshaft adjustment of the M119.

Stock camshaft adjustment? Maybe they mean the stock intake cam timing advance mechanism. (??) There's no provision to adjust the cams on a stock M119 unless you get adjustable sprockets as shown on Bernard's custom engine.

Ohh Dave, Bernard did reply me a day ago (sorry for not informing you, i was busy). He did not told me what camshafts exactly that were, he just said that the camshafts alone were a custom-built model ordered by him, however no data about manufacturer, duration, timing whatsoever. Price over 4000€ for all 4 . Same goes for the gears - However no Price information here. Also the rest of the further reworked head and intake was also custom and time-consuming so it was all-in-all a very very expensive tuning.

FOUR THOUSAND EUROS? They better be gold plated and delivered by a supermodel!!! That's crazy. I wonder if he ordered them from Hagmann. If not, what other mfr can custom make M119 cams? I could get the manifolds Extruded-Honed and have a race shop polish the head ports, but custom cams are still a mystery....

 

[Christian_K]

Hmmm. That's a real shame they won't post a sample dyno graph. You know they have some available! So, it adds up to about €1900 total after subtracting VAT. Still not cheap, but within reason if it's a properly engineered package with cams, springs, and EPROM chip. As long as they will ship the EPROM chip and not require the car to be present, this is still feasible.

Well i tell you something, i will call them tomorrow and ask them whatever questions you like... make me a list and i will literally drill holes into them until we know everything we need to know...
Who knows, maybe Dbilas can regrind us the old camshafts into Hagmanns Profile too, but still roughly 1/3 of Hagmann Price? What else Data do we need next to duration, valve lift for a request towards Dbilas?

Heh-heh. I could suffer along with "only" 370hp from a 5.0 engine.

Haha me too ;-) But the cylinder-head rework is going to get very expensive, doesn't it? Portmatching and polishing and even extrude-honing the manifolds, i suspect a few thousand dollars?

Stock camshaft adjustment? Maybe they mean the stock intake cam timing advance mechanism. (??) There's no provision to adjust the cams on a stock M119 unless you get adjustable sprockets as shown on Bernard's custom engine.

The original Words were: "Spreizung ist variabel über Nockenwellenverstellung", dunn how to translate best, but i also suspect they mean the intake camshaft timing advance mechanism. I even don't have a clue what that magical "spread/Spreizung" is... Camshafts are a book with 7 seals for me.

FOUR THOUSAND EUROS? They better be gold plated and delivered by a supermodel!!! That's crazy. I wonder if he ordered them from Hagmann. If not, what other mfr can custom make M119 cams? I could get the manifolds Extruded-Honed and have a race shop polish the head ports, but custom cams are still a mystery....

Well, i don't even want to know what the gears might have costed.... There are other companies doing custom camshafts. The most famous and with the best quality, known all around the world from Motorsports is "Dr. Schrick". A friend of mine, which has built himself a 3.6L Oettinger M103, did let Dr. Schrick manufacture him the camshaft of the Original 3.2AMG (IIRC the original one is not sold anymore). He just needed to provide the camshaft-profile and they simply manufactured it. But they are rather expensive, so the price 1000€/piece sounds like Dr. Schrick prices.

Here is there most actual Dr. Schrick/AVL Schrick catalogue in english:
http://www.avl-schrick.com/dat/MK/Schri ... 11%20E.pdf
The first page is also highly interessting. No M119 cams listed unfortunately, but the M273 V8-4V is comparable to our M119 and one cam does cost 575€ there, means all 4 for 2300€. I say this because they claim in the catalogue:

"When we do not list your required
camshaft ?
We have several possibilities to help you:
1. We grind your required profile on
a camshaft blank. The machine
set-up cost will be added to the
price of a comparable camshaft."

 

[szvook]

They better be gold plated and delivered by a supermodel!!!

If I can come up with $2k…can I just keep the supermodel? I mean the price of the cam’s looks a bit high, but if $2k gets me a supermodel, that is a hellova deal!

 

[gerryvz]

I don't know -- I think gold-plated cams would be awesome underhood bling that would help one score quite a few supermodels....not just the one they came with...

 

[gsxr]

Response from dbilas (edited slightly for grammar) :

Hello,
Yes, these will work on your engine with standard valve springs. A different eprom or other modification are not necessery. The power increase is 20hp. This is a camshaft for good torque.

You must send us your cams for regrinding. The price for regrinding is € 565,55. The freight costs are €65 with german post standard (delivery time approximate 4 weeks), or german post premium €133 (delivery time approx. 2 weeks), or courier express € 204.

So, if you send in your cams (est. $100 USD shipping cost) that totals up to about $1000 USD with shipping both ways, at current exchange rates. Less (claimed) power gain than Hagmann but also significantly less cost.

 

[Christian_K]

I wouldn't go with the Dbilas one personally... The information he sent you differs from the information he sent me some time ago, keyword "valve-springs" - very strange. I would even bet my ass that he doesn't even know that there are two different kinds of stock valve springs used.
Also it should be clear that always when you go to such "sharp" camshafts, you should change injetion-points and duration in order to get full possible power, as with the new cams the valves open much earlier and closing much later. It would be a waste to not use this "longer intake opening times".
Thats why Hagmann strongly recommends this and when you are still not doing it, you only get ~20HP at max out of the Hagmann cams instead of 35HP.... ~20HP... sounds similar to the Dbilas ones...

 

[Christian_K]

Did i ever mentioned that Dbilas offered me to regrind stock cams into the Hagmann Profile for the same price?

 

[gsxr]

Uh-oh. Hagmann has removed the M119 camshafts from their website...

 

[Christian_K]

Uh-oh. Hagmann has removed the M119 camshafts from their website...

I know...It was one Set and sold to a guy in Germany with a 6L AMG. He said the cams gave him around 30HP (no dyno verification, only Butt Dyno). Idle would be a little bit rougher but RPM still rock-solid stable.
However Hagmann still could do any Profile you want.
Also i have sourced other camshaft sources. A well known camshaft company in england will make me any Profile i can imagine for 1900Pounds on high grade steel billet, if i send-in the stock 4 cams, as they have never done M119 cams. Once they have stored that Profile it gets much cheaper for any following Set...I assume same price as for the Hagmann cams after all. A group buy would be awesome.
Also im about to source other sets. Still I need to calculate a good Profile to suit my needs. As long as i don't have that knowledge i wont order any cams. Maybeee... maybee when my 5L runs again, i do a regrind to Hagmann Profile by Dbilas. But for my 6.xL Plans there will be a different Profile.

Gerry will be in Germany in June, DBilas is just a few km away from me, why not give him a Set of M119 cams and let the Hagmann Profile regrinded on it? For those 500-600€ and no shipping cost from or to germny its a bargain.

 

[gsxr]

Any idea if they can regrind 5.0 cams into something that will work well on a 6.0 motor...?

 

[Christian_K]

Any idea if they can regrind 5.0 cams into something that will work well on a 6.0 motor...?

The Hagmann Profile supposedly works very good with the 6.0L Motor (aswell as with any other M119)...

 

[gsxr]

I do have a set of extra 5.0 cams, it would be interesting to have them grind them for a more aggressive 5.0 profile. Hmmmm.

 

[gerryvz]

Dave,

I am landing in Frankfurt on June 18th and plan to take those first few days to be in the Frankfurt & Stuttgart areas -- I could certainly deliver anything (could carry the cams in my carry-on duffel bag) you need me to, as long as you were to arrange it beforehand so they were expecting me to drop them off. Hoping to get together with a few of our European friends while in the area, as well as to make a visit to Vaeth as I'll be staying about 2km from them.

I have to be down in Munich by Thursday morning as we leave that afternoon for the 2012 Alpentour:
http://www.oldtimerfreunde-freising.de/Termine 2012/Alpentour 2012/alpentour 2012.html

I'm trying to convince Christian_K to be my Pagoda co-driver.....

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Christian_K]

I do have a set of extra 5.0 cams, it would be interesting to have them grind them for a more aggressive 5.0 profile. Hmmmm.

Why not use the Hagmann Profile? I guess you fear the change for valve-springs, right?
Use Hagmann Profile with 0.1mm reduce Valve-lift and if you have the old double-valve springs in the target engine you should be able to use them according to DBilas.

Dave,

I am landing in Frankfurt on June 18th and plan to take those first few days to be in the Frankfurt & Stuttgart areas -- I could certainly deliver anything (could carry the cams in my carry-on duffel bag) you need me to, as long as you were to arrange it beforehand so they were expecting me to drop them off. Hoping to get together with a few of our European friends while in the area, as well as to make a visit to Vaeth as I'll be staying about 2km from them.

I have to be down in Munich by Thursday morning as we leave that afternoon for the 2012 Alpentour:
http://www.oldtimerfreunde-freising.de/Termine 2012/Alpentour 2012/alpentour 2012.html

I'm trying to convince Christian_K to be my Pagoda co-driver.....

Cheers,
Gerry

Ahh damn Gerry i forgot to answer your last PM...
At what local time do you arrive by the way? And where do you plan to go first?
As for the Alpentour, i'm sorry but i can't be your co-driver unfortunately, i'm starting my new Job at beginning of Mai and it would certainly not look good to ask for free-time during the first Months...
But the next year of course if you do the tour again in 2013.

DBilas is roughly 30km away from Aschaffenburg. I don't know how long they take to regrind them, hopefully less than 4 days. But i will call them tomorrow and ask how long that would take.

 

[Jim]

Mercedes 4.2L - 6.0L V8 4V (M119) / Regrind standard camshafts
E500 / S500 / SL500 (engine M119); Applikation: Road
Duration: 260
Peak timing: 112
Valve lift: 10.3
Lift at TDC: 0.7
Valve timing: 18/62 - 62/18
Some camshafts require reinforced valve springs. We ask of you to inquire the necessity of reinforced valve springs.

I asked Dblias at what lift the timing measuments are taken...the answer is 0,07mm. for all the timing angles given.

There does not seem to any standard, with each manufacturer making there own choice.

 

[samiam44]

"There does not seem to any standard, with each manufacturer making there own choice"

Standard state-side is 0.050 inch for lift measurements. Heck even my old Kohler K-series is rated that way.

~1.25mm (1.27 actually).


Michael

 

[baviking1]

Posting for reference, since 500Ecstasy is still down:

Hagmann AutoSporting (click here)
UPDATE AUGUST 2012: As noted in this post, Hagmann no longer offers M119 camshafts, and will not accept custom orders. They are NLA.

I'm sure these are NLA mostly due to the fact that they f'ed up one of the best features of the M119; i.e. smoothness. Better ways to gain 35 HP and retain that wonderful quality IMO (and probably more cost-effective).

If you want a lopey cam idle, buy Detroit iron......

 

[gsxr]

NLA is due to lack of demand. The M119 has been out of production for 10+ years. dBilas will still do regrinds, AFAIK, but I'm less crazy about regrinds.

I'd still like to try a set of the cams... I could tolerate a slight idle lope in exchange for a measurable top-end gain. However, I am interested in this for bracket racing, not street use...

 

[baviking1]

However, I am interested in this for bracket racing, not street use...

Ah-HA!!

 

[jouniu]

Stock M119.960 cylinder head flow measured, see attachment. The head flows very well even without modifications. Bottom line for M119 performance improvement is to get rid of that intake manifold, after that everything else, but the intake manifold is the weakest link. That is probably the reason why so small performance gains has seen by tuning exhaust side. 400hp+ M119 should be doable but not with stock intake manifold.

 

[jouniu]

Anyone know what are E50/E60 AMG cam spec? One local guy is parting his w210 E50, I just wonder how much to offer his cams.

 

[samiam44]

Just as a note on the 960 flow data circulating- it is at 25 inch H2O. It is noted in every reference since Vizzard's first publication, that 28 inch is minimum for reproducible results.

I do have someone in the USA which will machine billet blanks. To get a discount rate, it will be done on a space available time. I agree with Dave on the slight lope. I can tolerate it too, but want more power and it will be with a new intake manifold. I think if you plan on it being emissions exempt due to age- then there is gains beyond what was originally offered by all the tuners.
I wonder if Hagmann or Schrick would make cams if we provide the blanks? Or maybe one of the USA cams companies now that VVT is so common.

Michael

 

[jouniu]

Anyone know what are E50/E60 AMG cam spec? One local guy is parting his w210 E50, I just wonder how much to offer his cams.

poped in bemzworld:

1. M119 für the 6,0AMG with LH injection, such as the E60 AMG W124 Sedan
(119 18,19,20,21)
in: 10,2mm, out: 9,7mm

1. M119 for the 6,0AMG with HFM injection, such as the late W140, R129 and W210 E60 Sedan.
(119 26,27,30,31)
in: 10,1mm, out: 9,6mm

 

[jouniu]

Just as a note on the 960 flow data circulating- it is at 25 inch H2O. It is noted in every reference since Vizzard's first publication, that 28 inch is minimum for reproducible results.

I do have someone in the USA which will machine billet blanks. To get a discount rate, it will be done on a space available time. I agree with Dave on the slight lope. I can tolerate it too, but want more power and it will be with a new intake manifold. I think if you plan on it being emissions exempt due to age- then there is gains beyond what was originally offered by all the tuners.
I wonder if Hagmann or Schrick would make cams if we provide the blanks? Or maybe one of the USA cams companies now that VVT is so common.

Michael

Whati is price estimation for billet blanks?

 

[quicksilver500]

http://www.compcams.com/Base/pdf/COMP5-138 LoRes.pdf

Blank are the easy part, anyone with a lathe can make a blank and rough the lobes. I think a lot of after market guys use 8200 series steel, so figure about $350 in material, maybe 6 hours labor @ $100. I bet you could get a set of 4 for $1000. Then you need a grinder, nitrider, knowledge and talent. Also, hollow cams would be a cost adder.

Mike

 

[jouniu]

http://www.compcams.com/Base/pdf/COMP5-138 LoRes.pdf

Blank are the easy part, anyone with a lathe can make a blank and rough the lobes. I think a lot of after market guys use 8200 series steel, so figure about $350 in material, maybe 6 hours labor @ $100. I bet you could get a set of 4 for $1000. Then you need a grinder, nitrider, knowledge and talent. Also, hollow cams would be a cost adder.

Mike

Ok, I ask the from guy who re-grind my OEM cams. He have made cams from blanks for other cars. But probably I am happy to the re-grinded cams, they need to be tested before trying anything else.

 

[samiam44]

I'm going to spend some serious time with my camshaft/intake/cylinder head modeling software prior to making cams. I will probably pass my profile onto them to get a qoute.



Michael

 

[gsxr]

Also, hollow cams would be a cost adder.

M119 cams are hollow, and also require oil passages drilled for the intake cams. Plan on additional $$$ for those items.

 

[samiam44]

gun drilling is actually pretty cool to anyone remotely machinist interested. Should look it up on Ytube or some place.

I think for roller cams, SAE 8620 steel is commonly used. Never heard of 8200 being used.

M

 

[Jim]

In the USA these people seem capable.

http://estasusa.com/

I wrote to them in Turkey

http://www.estas.com/Default.aspx

a couple of years ago but did not get a reply.

 

[samiam44]

Jim,

Since you are in England- why don't you talk with Catcams? They list a M104 2.8 custom cam, so they are familiar with VVT MB 4 valve design.


M

 

[Jim]

Since you are in England- why don't you talk with Catcams? They list a M104 2.8 custom cam, so they are familiar with VVT MB 4 valve design.

E-mail sent to Catcams....they list cams for the SOHC 4.7 Porsche 928 so we might be lucky.

 

[quicksilver500]

Michael that's what I meant, they use 8620 for non-roller too. I know some people are using a type of tool steel now. I bet something like A2 would make good cams. I don't think the oil holes are an issue, but gun drilling is kind of special thing and the drills are costly and usually the machines are big.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#grade-8620-steel/=vdrk6d

Usually you can get it way cheaper than Mcmaster, but just for reference...

I also really like the stuff these guys make, the pictures anyway, anyone familiar? I saw them at SEMA one year.

http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/cam-cores

gun drilling is actually pretty cool to anyone remotely machinist interested. Should look it up on Ytube or some place.

I think for roller cams, SAE 8620 steel is commonly used. Never heard of 8200 being used.

M