Not buying it.
Far too unrefined. A great hoon-mobile, but it's still just the entry level Merc.
I’ll posit that the current E63 is much too powerful, and way too focused on tech to warrant much of a comparison to our beloved .036’s. The C63 is more raw, sure; it’s an AMG! There is a direct tie to Motorsport that Mercedes-Benz never brought to the .036. What it certainly is not, is entry-level. Nor is the base C-class in today’s line-up. We now have a CLA/GLA and an A-Class.
Not trying to sell you. I asked that you change MY mind...
There’s no attack.
There’s the primary argument that the E class — all of them except the 500E — lack the S/SL level of appointments, which is a huge differentiator for the 500E.
The second argument is equally factual, that talking about cars one hasn’t driven is a fairly adolescent exercise.
You can take offense if you want, but none was meant. If you’ve spent as much time in AMG cars as you say, you can recognize the truth of both arguments, I’m sure.
I’d agree that the M156 E63 is the current version of the 500E. But it lacks something the 500E had, which was the S/SL level of luxury appointment. And I’m happy to have anyone change my mind.
maw
Honestly, I think the W212 E550 is closer to the E500 W124 than today's E63. No gimicks, just raw horsepower. If you haven't driven one, especially the 4Matic, I suggest you do. Remarkable car for the money. It doesn't have the flared fenders, but I have met very few people that notice the flared fenders on the E500. Even when I attend a local MB event 9 out of 10 people don't know what an E500 W124 is.
212 550/63 are, in my mind, excellent examples.
OP asks for MB/AMG to do something today. I’m then suggesting 213, and 205 models. I agree the 204 is not refined, and very much below the 124’s fit and finish. The 205, however, is excellent.
If you you haven’t been to an AMG Driving Academy since they were using 204’s, I’d urge you to use your Private Lounge discount to go back and experience the current portfolio of cars!
You specifically stated "Big V8" in your "change my mind" post.
Big V8 = M156
The term "Big" doesn't come to mind with a 4 liter multiturbo engine.
Hence my assumption on the W204.
I'm TOTALLY off the AMG train at this point. Mercedes has facked up their product line so badly that I have less than zero interest in buying a new one ever again. The Mercedes-AMG "43" situation is a clown show.
This is far too long of a conversation for me to get involved in today, but I couldn't fully resist. This rant is an EXTREME compression of my thoughts on this topic. Important exceptions and details abound...
Hmmm, a 212 with 156 motor is close, even great, and the turbo M157 is no deal-breaker either. But for subjective feel and overall behavior, the closest thing to a modern 500E from recent years is SO easy to pick. A 212 with full air suspension (yes, I said that) and M273 NA-V8 is as close as it has ever been. Even the 4-matic one is great, and I hate 4wd in a non-winter necessity driven RWD based car with the fire of ten-thousand suns.
Current production AMG cars as successor to the 124.036? Gag me with a damn Smurf...
There's the newer AMG cars that force one into 4-Matic. That's bad enough, but then consider especially the S-Class V8 cars that do so at the required omission of ABC/MBC? I don't give two shits about them. What a great way to spend far more to get SO much less. All modern AMG (I'm talking actual AMG cars, not the recent badge engineered stuff) offerings also force upon you the abominable wet clutch transmission, which is nothing more than MB/AMG's misguided attempt to make their previously nearly perfect auto-boxes behave like the competition's horrid dual clutch automated-manual whiz bang whatever complications so that the Ritalin generation reviewers on YouTube will think that the AMG transmissions are "cool" too, even though the competition's alternately slippery, banging, and flimsy contraptions were only done because they didn't EVER have any autoboxes that were worth a half pint of cold piss, and/or couldn't handle higher power outputs, and/or had to be adopted from economy car manual transmission concepts due to budget constraints. It's all the wrong things done for all the wrong reasons, probably by the wrong people, and ALL OF IT just to impress the people that DON'T ACTUALLY BUY THE DAMN CARS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! Just put the damn torque converter back in them and you will eliminate what most CUSTOMERS THAT ACTUALLY BUY THEM NEW COMPLAIN ABOUT!
Absent from my hatred of most current AMG cars is the GT, which can deliver a deep and satisfying experience in any of it's forms.
SO for me, [deleted] is kinda/sorta correct by default. There's the brittle, bouncing, rattle filled, overly track focused, over-tired, and just generally hyperactive and obnoxious boy-racer C63, and there's the S65 which may as well be available only in a diamond encrusted gold wrap for it's violent rejection of anything that could be conceivably described as elegant. Those are what remain as AMG contenders. Don't bother trying to change my mind...
I would love Benz to pay homage to the 6.9 but I guess I have a better chance of winning the lotto than that ever happening. Imagine if they drop into the new S Class a turbo charged 6.9 V8...I know technically not the same thing as the 6.9 was normally aspirated, but that would be a thing of beauty IMHO
This. All this. There are a myriad of driving dynamics reasons why current AMG products are dissimilar to the 500E, but all you need to know is this:
When the 500E / w124 was current, MB in the UK came out with this advertisement. Note the copy of this advertisement:
The long service life ... of a Mercedes-Benz makes it imperative to filter out passing fashions from the design trends of the time ... ensure that it remains contemporary for many years. Long-lasting modernity as opposed to short lived modishness."
The current MB and particularly AMG products today that we are discussing in this thread embody values that are
the opposite of the above. Backlit star on the grille. Constellation "thousand dots" grille. Gundam body lines everywhere. Quad tipped exhaust "finishers." Aluminum ultra-bling cheese-grater tweeter grilles in the interior. All this is short lived fashion.
From an industrial design perspective, the closest thing to a w124 500E that come out of Germany today is a Gaggenau oven. Gaggenau ovens are the best built, best performing, and most straightforward styled ovens around. In fact, I'd wager that the previous generation EB290 was even better made than the current ones. But look at the styling - straightforward, simple, robust controls, no unnecessary text --- very Bauhaus. Build Quality for days. The only appliance in the world whose knobs match classic MB hazard switches and headlamp knobs in superior tactile feedback.
Today's MB and AMG products are nice, but, in comparison, they are Wolf / Dacor.
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I believe it's possible... but at extreme cost. Imagine someone doing what Singer does for Porsche. Hand-fabricated everything by master craftsmen, from pure unobtanium. You'd end up with an incredible 036, but likely with a pricetag nearing a half-million dollars. There might be buyers for such an animal, but I'm reasonably certain (1) you could count the total on one hand, and (2) they are probably not reading this forum.
This is a great thread. I just revisited it and checked off on some of the posts in the thread that I find most interesting and valuable perspectives.
IMHO MB will never re-make nor bring back the E500E. They have done so a few times with a few of their high-end models, such as the SLS Gullwing repop, SLR sports racer, and the Maybach (more in name than in actuality) for the Grand 600. And the 6.3 nameplate (sigh).
Niche models such as the 2.3-16, E500E, 6.3/6.9, etc. are too small of production and niche-y to bring back a spiritual successor. Look at what other marques have done, such as the VW Beetle, Mustang, Charger, Camaro, etc. re-pops. I just can't see MB doing something like that for the 124.
MB's mindset is to move forward, not to look back. They'll take styling cues from previous generations (look at the rear wheel arches on the 212 E-class; the hood bumps on the R170 SLK, the Gullwing doors on the SLS, etc.) and apply them to newer cars, but they don't re-pop entire cars. That's just not how MB rolls. They don't create models that directly play on past models -- and I agree with them, that's what car companies that are bankrupt for new ideas do (Ford, Chevy, VW, etc.). You play off of your past glories to make a few bucks with a cheap knock-off.
MB is also interesting in that if you REALLY look at things, the E500E is actually the spiritual successor to the 6.3 and its son, the 6.9. Both of those models were S-class models, and then with the E500E MB went to the E-chassis (which in all honestly didn't really exist during the W109 6.3 era).
The closest spiritual successor to the E500E that MB has today, IMHO, is the C63 AMG, moniker/displacement deception notwithstanding. Today's C-class is about the same physical dimensions as the W124, while the current E-class is about the same dimensions as the "old" W126 models. They've upsized everything from what it used to be, creating room (as was said in the thread) for more down-market models such as the A- and B- classes. Even the current A-class models are a significant step upward from the original two generations of the A-Class, which were not sold in the US market.
I don't buy this snobbishness of "well, that is the "C" (lower) class model, so it doesn't compare to the 124 which is an "E" class". Those distinctions are largely irrelevant in today's market. I think it's difficult to tell the difference in fit, finish and materials between a "C" and an "E" that you find in today's MB showrooms -- sure the "E" is going to have more wood and goodies, but I'm talking materials and fit/finish.
Then we get into the nebulous "refinement" category. What does this mean? Lack of NVH? Road behavior? Isolation from outside elements? Smoothness of powertrain/transmission? Preciseness of controls? Quality of materials used? There are a lot of facets of this.
The bottom line to all of this is that you just can't compare an E500E to anything modern. Sure there are "spiritual successors" in terms of putting a big powerful engine (for the time) in a relatively small-bodied car and enjoying the power/performance/luxury of it all. Today's C63 and E63 tick all of those boxes, actually quite well.
But neither of them is an E500E. The same that an E500E is MUCH more refined, luxurious, faster and more pleasant to drive than any 6.3 or 6.9 model. I know because I have owned all three ... simultaneously. All of them are wonderful cars, but they are different beasts. Spiritual lineage, for sure. But completely different cars with completely different characteristics.
I remember not long ago driving 8899's G55 AMG while visiting ntrepid's house. Tooling the country roads for a few miles around ntrepid's house with a huge shit-eating grin on my face and giggling like a schoolboy while I romped on the throttle, and telling 8899 that his G was NOTHING like my G320. I think 8899 was sort of puzzled, LOL. Completely different models for completely different purposes. One a boulevard cruiser, and one still strong in its off-road roots where power and acceleration are not required. It was fun, but didn't make me want to run out and replace my G320 with a V-8 model.
Bottom line is as has been said -- if you want a new E500E, then you have to take a used one and make a 600-Eric style new one out of it. Takes time, money and persistence. I expect this is what a few folks will do in the coming years, once these cars continue to get more valuable. 600Eric, SayHey, The LowMan and others are only the tip of the iceberg on this.
Don't fit a modern C or E AMG square peg into an E500E/W124 round hole. Can't be done, at least not fully. Enjoy them all for what they are. if you need a new E500E, you will need to go the 600Eric route, or spend $75K+ getting as close as possible to it. Or maybe convince 600Eric to sell his to you, but that price is steadily going up, so don't wait.
Cheers,
Gerry
neil
