Porsche 911 Advice

[Maui]

I am considering selling my 1992 500E and purchasing a 911. I don't know anything about 911's. Are there ctain years or configurations I should steer away from? I like the 1980's convertibles. I prefer a manual transmission but would consider an auto if it is durable.

I would love to hear from those that know 911's which ones to look at and which ones to stay away from. My budget is around $50k, preferibly less.

 

[Ntrepid]

Trading one Porsche for another?!?

I'm not well versed in 911s but there are years which suffer IMS bearing issues much like the 2007 M156 6.2L head bolt issue you read about. This is an item which will brick the motor so best to find one which has not been done and use it as leverage to get a better price or, for peace of mind, get one with documentation showing it has been done.


Robert

 

[alabbasi]

I'm assuming air cooled cars right?

 

[Jlaa]

Try to get something with a g50 gearbox .... I think it is 1987 and later, although you will want to double check. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/pors...how-important-g50-transmission-3-2-911-a.html

The earlier 915 gearboxes are balkier and much less pleasant.

Aside from that, if you are looking for a classic air cooled 911, then any one w/ a g50 is nice. I am partial to the 993’s svelte looks and more refined suspension (1995-1998) over the big bumper 964s (1989-1994) or earlier ones.... generally the later you go, the more refined they are.

Frankly though they are all superb driver’s cars, and even a 993 will feel much less refined than a 500E.

My opinion - these are brilliant cars to drive, because they are not-particularly fast cars (by today’s standards) and they make you feel like you are going warp factor 9 when you have actually just gone from 30 mph to 65 mph. So you can have lots of fun without getting into tons of trouble. The turbo cars I find are a different story - they have gobs of power but it is much easier to find yourself in too-fast-bad-shape with those.

the driving experience is nearly the polar opposite of the 500E - lithe vs steam locomotive. Wailing flat 6 revving vs, muted 8 cyl quiet rising revs. A cornering machine vs. autobahn missile. But they both share qualities that make them such a pleasure to own and maintain - superb build quality from another era. That’s why I keep them both.

 

[Jlaa]

Here is my 993. You are looking at a pedestrian 993 - narrow body 2 wheel drive Carrera. (993s come in narrow and wide body. No additional power, but turbo-look wideness. To my eye, I prefer the svelte lines of the NB, even though the WB is much more $$$) BTW - coupes are generally a little more $ than cabriolets, and then turbos and wide bodies are more $ than coupes. This doesn't include all the special stuff like slant nose, etc.

In 2013, I paid less $$ for my 993 than I did for my 500E in 2016, but the 993 is now worth quite a bit more. However, you budget would suffice.

 

[Jlaa]

Trading one Porsche for another?!?

I'm not well versed in 911s but there are years which suffer IMS bearing issues much like the 2007 6.2L head bolt issue you read about. This is an item which will brick the motor so best to find one which has not been done and use it as leverage to get a better price or, for peace of mind, get one with documentation showing it has been done.


Robert

Yes, the IMS issue Robert speaks of afflicts the naturally aspirated water cooled cars from 1999 on --- but not the air cooled cars if that is what you are looking for.

 

[ace10]

In the 993 realm, Cabs and Tips are the bottom of the pricing ladder.

Moving up from there, $50K would get you a 993NB with something like 75K miles.

The market on 964's has gotten pretty silly, IMO.

 

[ZombieBranz]

Yes, the IMS issue Robert speaks of afflicts the naturally aspirated water cooled cars from 1999 on --- but not the air cooled cars if that is what you are looking for.

Although I believe the IMS issue does not include the 996 and on Turbo or GT 911’s as they had the Mezger engine

 

[ace10]

Although I believe the IMS issue does not include the 996 and on Turbo or GT 911’s as they had the Mezger engine

Correct. Through 2009 for the 997TTs.

The market for 996 TT and GT cars has gone berserk this year. Cannot imagine paying near 997 money for a 996.

 

[duuder]

993's are definitely the darlings of Porsches and best looking in my opinion. My first car was a 966.2 targa, aside from the headlights, it was a fantastic car. User friendly, balanced, and was extremely reliable. For 50k, you can get a 996tt/997. If you're not looking to go too fast, i would op for an aircooled manual

 

[RicardoD]

I'm partial to the 964 myself since it retains the original classic lines. My Red one is for sale but its a tiptronic which means it has a very small market of interested people.

 

[sheward]

I suggest you drive a 911 if you have not already done so. As Jlaa said the pre 1998 Porsches are the complete opposite of an 036 in many ways. A simplistic sports car built for that purpose. The cabriolets are of course less ridged than the coups which is contrary to the original purpose. Same with the automatic trans. Cars equipped with either will be cheaper and will also bring less should you decide to sell. Also good advise on obtaining the G50 trans. All the manual transmissions of the era in discussion take some acclimation to use properly. All the air cooled Porsches are friendly to work on and relatively inexpensive due to a simplistic design, the lack of a coolant system and lack of electronic gadgetry. The 2.7 and 3.0 liter cars up through 1984 had issues with head studs. 1985 thru 1989 3.2 L cars with upgraded seats and steering wheel are considered the best of the 80s. 1989 brought an anniversary model with many upgrades and options including power windows, G50 trans, wider wheels, etc. I covet the sport seats if you can find them. The 90 thru 94 models (964s) had issues with a dual mass flywheel but are otherwise fine cars with a bit more power. Like Jlaa, I would recommend the 993 (1995 thru 1997) as well. If you are interested in a Porsche as a touring car and you are OK with the change in styling the 1998 thru 2002? cars are dirt cheap and have a significant upgrade in niceties but be aware there were issues that came with these changes (IMS bearing mentioned) as a result of an entirely new chassis and design. Your budget may allow purchase of the 2nd water cooled chassis which was a much better design and style.

 

[kwontumspeed]

993 S (widebody) with Ruf (5 spoke) wheels is all you need to know. Go find one, buy it, post pics.

TT if you want to drop the extra $$$$$$$$$ and really need the speed.

 

[msq]

I was also looking at buying one recently, but have decided not to for other reasons. Some ideas:

- if you are going to buy a non-air cooled one, avoid the 997.1 engine unless it has had IMS bearings done. I believe 997.2 engines the issue was fixed
- as others have said, Cabriolets are worth less in general
- I am not a fan of the 1999 - 2004 (and some 2005) due to the headlight design, and it seems true of others since the resale prices reflect that. One the other hand you get a great car for significantly lower price than low mileage pre-1999 or 2006+
- 80' & 90's air cooled market seemed to peak in the last year (it really shot up last few years), and if you look at recent auctions (last 6 months or) prices are down a bit from their peak (my suspicion was confirmed by a guy who tracks this data)
- if money is no object I would consider a Singer (crazy $$ ~$500K) as I suspect they will hold their price in near term, or the German one Kaege (kind of like German Singer, but a bit less powerful, but still very fast and nice)
- I would look for ones that have not been raced (on modern ones you can get reading for over rev's)
- this sounds obvious, but I would be patient, I looked for quite a while and found some good ones at more reasonable prices from private sellers.

 

[ace10]

This is a pretty good visual primer to the 911 since day one.
http://hooniverse.com/2016/09/08/how-to-tell-porsche-911-generations-apart/

Mostly factual with some opinion mixed in.

 

[Melville]

Start reading rennlist - https://rennlist.com/forums/

I was looking for a 996 and was in serious talks with a dealer to get one and making arrangements for a PPI. Then, one late night of Rennlist browsing, I saw another poster mention that he had a PPI done on a 4S that sounded a lot like the car I was looking into. I PM'ed that poster and, sure enough, it was the same car. He shared his PPI with me - which showed something like $18K of needs for the car. It looked great, but needed a lot of stuff refreshed.

Then I found another car at a big dealer and after some digging found posts that were almost certainly by the previous owner. The first posts I looked at were great - all the usual work was done and the car appeared to have no needs. Then as I read newer posts, I found the owner posted about metal shards in his oil filter. I can't remember what people thought it was, but consensus was that it wasn't the IMS as that had been done. But the owner was advised to stop driving immediately. Looks like he traded the car in at a dealer before the engine went toast.

The lesson here is not that all 911s are going to have huge mechanical needs or problems. Instead, if you do your research, you're more likely to avoid a big problem. And frequent Rennlist browsing is part of that research.

So which 911 did I end up getting? A 1994 E320 wagon. I'm still trying to figure out how that happened!

 

[bb1]

In Germany the Prices for 993 just dropping quick.. Dealers bought them for more, then they will become today..
I would never trade a 500E for a Porsche.. having both, maybe, but there are other Options for me first!

Good luck with finding one

 

[vexed]

At that budget you can get a 997.2 (2009+) Having owned one since new (9 years) I can tell you it's a great car. Not as raw as the aircooled cars and much improved over the 996. No IMS to worry about, in general reliable. You can do routine maintenance yourself. For years I had a booster seat in the back and it was the school bus. Sadly I don't drive it much now. They were the first with PDK but I have a 6 speed, you can lay into it in 5th gear and it takes off.

993s are in the stratosphere.

The pre 993s are drivers' cars. I would not have one as a DD but that's me.

 

[AMG5PT4]

I owned a 2010 997.2 Carrera S (C2S) for about a year - had P-car itch that I needed to scratch. It was my DD. Not a very practical DD since the storage area is very small. Try making a trip to Costco in a 911. I chose the 997.2 (2009-2011) because I wanted to avoid the IMS bearing engine with the 997.1 (2005-2008) cars. My 911 had 385hp -fun and fast cars. As mentioned above, I also do not like the 996 (1999-2004) 911's because of the fried egg/Boxster headlights. The 993's are the last of the air-cooled 911's and command a premium. As you get a little older (964's - 1990-1994 and 911SC/Carreras 1978-1989) you get less comfort and more of the older Porsche feel. The 997.2's will cost low 40's for base Carreras, mid-40's to low 50's for the S and 4S models (4 = all wheel drive that is useful in the snow). As mentioned above, the Cabriolets are generally less than the coupes. The IMS bearing issue is most prevalent with the 996's and early (2005) 997.1's. Kind of like the AMG M156 engine head bolt and lifter issue - can be a catastrophic failure and big $$ if it happens to you, but the failure rates are pretty low.

If you do decide to get a P-car, don't fall into the Rennlist trap and succumb to to the paranoia of putting miles on your car and washing it twice daily. These are great driving cars, but there are SO MANY anal P-car owners they almost shame you into putting your car in a bag. I shake my head at the craze about Paint to Sample (PTS) colors, options, miles and the never ending one-up-man-ship among P-car owners. I will say these cars do hold their value after the initial 3-4 year depreciation curve.

BTW - sold the 911 as fast as I could when a W126 500SEC AMG widebody project presented itself! Easy decision!

Al

 

[nocfn]

Al - how is the resto coming, its been a while...

 

[Harv]

993 or bust.

 

[makemann]

I bought a beautiful Carrara White/Cocoa Brown 2009 997.2 just before I bought the 500E. I loved the car, but I was irrationally afraid of the cost of repair to the PDK transmission ($18k) and sold it after a couple of years of ownership.

It was comfortable, fast, stable, beautifully designed and produced to a high standard. Now that the PDK has been out for nearly 10 years, my fear was unfounded. They are known to be pretty bulletproof.

Mine had the full-leather interior with heated/ventilated seats that were perfect. I haven’t found a seat more perfectly suited to my frame.

My only complaint with the 997.2 was the entertainment system. It was clunky when new, and is now terribly outdated. But that’s an easy fix now that the aftermarket is providing full replacement systems.

I would buy the 2009-2012 911 Carrera in a heartbeat. The “S” version is nice, but other than the track, the additional power and speed would never be used on the street.

I looked at the Targa, but NVH is high with this one. Never considered the Cabriolet.

I missed the P-Car and ended up buying a Glacier White/Midnight blue 1997 993 with the Tiptronic. I had a serious mountain bike accident that eliminates manual transmissions for me. The car was a riot to own, but living in Michigan means poor roads and long winters. So both the 993 and the 500E sit in a heated storage facility from October through mid-April. Since I refuse to drive them in the salt-covered winter roads, I can only enjoy driving them five to six months of the year. And most of the time, I enjoy driving the 500E. So I ended up selling the 911 this spring.

Things I loved about the 993: The Tiptronic transmission has a great manual mode. The shifts feel solid and have a perfect feel of satisfaction when driving aggressive. Mine also had the steering wheel up/down shift switches. They took some getting used to, but I took it on the track once, and finally understood why Porsche made them—they were extremely easy to shift with your thumbs at high speed and my hands never had to leave the wheel.

The steering feel is remarkable.

IMO, the design of the 993 is perfect. Every other earlier model of the 911 is trying to evolve to be the 993 and every other later model is trying to emulate it.

Did I mention the design of the rear?

I would recommend you try one. If you don’t like it, you can always easily sell it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tanger]

Lots of info on Rennlist. FWIW, don't be scared off by IMS. Just price in the fix (about $1-$2k) from someone like LN Engineering and you will be good to go. Pretty sure you can get into a nice 997.1 (2005-2008?) example for $50k or less.

Personally at $50k, would do a 997.2 "S", unless you really want air-cooled in which case the 993 is my fav. Pricing makes it difficult to find a really nice example in that range.

Can get a 996 (98-2004) for cheap but IMO they look like shite. best bang for the buck tho if you don't mind the looks...

I daily drive a 997.2 911 GTS cab (2011) in crap-tastic LA traffic (1 hr to go 13 miles on my morning commute). that being said, it's still the best way to end a long work day...

 

[rinconmann]

Stay away from the IMS issue in 911's. Having said this I knew all about it and still bought a 2008 997 which was technically part of that ERA however the 2008 had a much improved and solid IMS so no issue. I would not buy the earlier cars with 1st and 2nd GEN IMS. Now have 67K. Love the car, super easy to work on and fix, holds value. Would not sell your E but consider trying to keep the 500 (PRICES increasing more) and getting a 911. YOU WILL NEVER BE DISAPPOINTED!

 

[rinconmann]

BTW-2 major complaints that I must relay; The center console on my 997 (2008) and some parts have been covered in what was supposed to be some kind of matte rubber finish. It SUCKS and scratches. There is a company that for about 600USD will recover it in stitched leather. My point is that can be fixed and I plan to do mine because my wife hates it and Porsche should have known better. Second- On my 2008 911 the radio sucks. Good sound on CD but crappy reception on FM. Love the car otherwise and maintain it very well myself.

 

[Jlaa]

My absurd and virtually worthless opinion - since you are keeping your other 124.036, please determine - do you want a 911? Or do you want a Porsche? (Seemingly ridiculous question posed for irony)

If you want a raw 911, then get an aircooled model with a G50 trans.
If you want the coolest thing ever made by Porsche, back when it was an exclusive maker of sports and GT cars, get a 928 S4 or GTS.

Everything else is cool, but not worth selling one of your 124.036s.

 

[Trae]

Ken, don't go to the dark side, haven't you heard the first verse of this song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qev-i9-VKlY

 

[RicardoD]

If you want the coolest thing ever made by Porsche, back when it was an exclusive maker of sports and GT cars, get a 928 S4 or GTS.

I have always wanted to drive a later model 928. And I was considering it before I went the E500 route. Have you driven a 928 ? How does it compare to the E500?

 

[vdubpower]

you cant g o wrong with any sorted porsche...

i have a contact who is selling his 993 targa 6 spd, its nice clean and low miles. PM if interested i can connect u

 

[Sam SL]

There are so many different vintages and configs of 911's thru the years that it is a subjective choice. I prefer the air cooled cars and I think they are bullet proof just like the W124's, once they are sorted. They hold their values and they are just beautiful. The lines are timeless, recognizable and appreciated by the masses. They sound wonderful. I personally think that body styles after the 997's are too large. I highly recommend you to drive the Tiptronic first if you are considering an automatic. PPI's are important and Porsche people place a lot of importance on cars that do not have more than 50000 miles when it comes to pricing. Shop wisely and prices are better today than they were 2 years ago.

 

[Maui]

Thanks for all the info and recommendations. I have my eye on a couple cars but no decisions yet. I need to get the 500E ready to sell. Anyone interested in a 72k mile 500E let me know. I am not looking for top dollar. I will defintely be keeping the red E500.

 

[Jlaa]

I have always wanted to drive a later model 928. And I was considering it before I went the E500 route. Have you driven a 928 ? How does it compare to the E500?

Alas, I have not. But I want to. Desperately. My neighbor had a red one, and it was oh-so-cool --- but before I got to drive it, he had sold it, and now he parks a W212 E55 AMG and a Porsche 996 40th Anniversary Edition (lovely lines mind you) in his garage. Yes, he saw the light - one must park a P and an MB in the garage.

My other neighbor --- he has a dark blue 928 S4 in it. Ohhhhhhh ---- it is so lovely. He has a 2 car garage + another one car garage where he stores the *beautiful* 928 S4. Mind you, this is inside the city-proper of SF. No one, I mean NO ONE has a 2+1 car garage, let alone a shrine to this 928. The 928 S4 .... it is in absolutely pristine condition. I've never seen it driven. Fifteen years I have spent on this block --- fifteen years. Countless drive-bys of this neighbor's house, and the 928 S4 still sleeps. Does it never wake? Does it not need to see the bright sun? I despise this neighbor. I secretly curse him. Damn him! Ohhhhhh he doesn't deserve the car. I wish him nothing but ill will. I covet his 928 S4 with extreme abandon. Curse you and your endless polishing of that v8 motorcar!!!*

I think one person that could best tell you what the 500E vs. the 928 is like is probably our very own Klink, since he owns both.
And one Torfi Sigurjonsson from Iceland too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q63XOBMs_ic

Also this: https://petrolicious.com/articles/928-ways-to-kill-the-911


* Of course all of this is untrue. And fictitious.

 

[maw1124]

Thanks for all the info and recommendations. I have my eye on a couple cars but no decisions yet. I need to get the 500E ready to sell. Anyone interested in a 72k mile 500E let me know. I am not looking for top dollar. I will defintely be keeping the red E500.

Yes, by all means keep the imperial red. I’ve shopped and shopped 911s, for others and myself (trying to convince myself I needed or wanted one). A couple of copper ones: (1) the 928 GTS or S4’s seemingly only made the cut for me, probably because I already owned a .036. With a 4 door handler, why settle for only 2 doors; (2) 993 or bust — the last of the air cooled is all it’s about, really, and I prefer top down so I can hear and feel it freely; (3) after that, move to 997 for the updated electronics, skip manual for Chrono package and tiptronic, get the extra horses; and finally (4) if not that, get a ‘14+ AMG with all wheel drive, you won’t miss the Porsche and you’ll have your Benz reliability with impeccable design and 4 doors.

For some reason, the post air cooled 911’s didn’t sufficiently beat out BMW M3’s for me, and the TT models didn’t best out AMGs. That’s probably because I already had a .036, a S55k and an E46M Cabrio. But that’s telling for me. If it couldn’t distinguish itself among those, what was the point? The badge? And if the badge is the point, air cooled 993 Cabrio or 928 V8 only for me. I’m pushing no car hard enough where I need the extra chassis rigidity of coupe over open sky Cabrio, but that’s just me. And the 928 remains the “special Porsche” for those who know. The 911s will always be “Sport Beetles”, the lone exceptions being air cooled.

Happy Hunting,

maw

 

[samiam44]

I can honestly say as someone whom worked for a period of time mainly on 911s... you need a ppi badly with a car. I really liked the 3.0 s back in the day- but there are lots of expensive pitfalls. Porsche used rubber dampeners on clutchs- miss a shift and it explodes rubber in to the pp. New clutch time. THere were through the years many design changed on timing chain/tensioners due to failures. Never serviced one for the first time that didn't need dialing in camshafts.

You can adjust ride height easily w the torsion bars. Upgrade the tie-rods to 930s.. all easy stuff.

They are just like MB's which can look and drive nicely and need $$$ in neglected maintence.

 

[Trae]

Klink has a Porsche and might provide a "rant" on this subject.

 

[skikrazey]

Janice Joplin owned a Porsche 356 that sold for $1.7 million, don't know if she ever owned a MB.

 

[skikrazey]

Interesting thread! While I hold Porsche in high regard and respect their engineering talents, the 911 has never hooked me, save for the rally car that lead to the 959 which I would love to have, the first gen Carrera 4, and the slant nose (love the look). Never drove a 928 but they have always caught my eye. Hope Klink adds his opinion! I have owned a 76 914 2.0 since 1990. Always had a thing for the 914 since a neighbor brought one home and restored it. Grew up in the early 70s when muscle cars with big V-8s were rumbling all over the block. While I like fast V-8s, the buzzy 914 caught my attention because it was so different and was like a go cart for the street!

I like GT cars, lots of power, fast with great handling. Loved the 500E from the first time I drove one in 1992. Back in May, I got the itch for a 2 door. Looked at some 911s, but again they did not do it for me. Picked up a CPO 2013 SL63 AMG. LOVE the car!!! Fast GT car, the folding hard top is icing on the cake! No 911s for me, I'll stick with MB AMGs!

 

[ace10]

Janice Joplin owned a Porsche 356 that sold for $1.7 million, don't know if she ever owned a MB.

I think she may have left us before having this wish was fulfilled...

[video=youtube;C-GFqhCq2HA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-GFqhCq2HA[/video]

 

[kwontumspeed]

Back on my 993 and now a little Atlanta bias...

https://www.ajc.com/business/porsch...er-sports-car-history/W7mDU9FtatjlsPmyf0gbWJ/

 

[TerryA]

Back on my 993 and now a little Atlanta bias...

https://www.ajc.com/business/porsch...er-sports-car-history/W7mDU9FtatjlsPmyf0gbWJ/

Wow!! That’s nice. Porsche put a lot of time and $$$ into that car, to bad it can’t be driven on the street legally. Wonder what it will bring at the auction?

Maybe you can pick it up cheap and use it for a door stop or something.

 

[makemann]

Thanks for all the info and recommendations. I have my eye on a couple cars but no decisions yet. I need to get the 500E ready to sell. Anyone interested in a 72k mile 500E let me know. I am not looking for top dollar. I will defintely be keeping the red E500.

So have you scratched that 911 itch?


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[alabbasi]

If you want the coolest thing ever made by Porsche, back when it was an exclusive maker of sports and GT cars, get a 928 S4 or GTS.

Maybe I'm just getting too old but I've had an 88 928 for several years which I bought as a non runner but spent a decent amount of coin getting it going including torque tube , carriers and timing belt stuff. The guy who sold it to me told me that i would find it a delight to drive compared to my 107... meh. I think that my 98 SL500 is a much nicer car to drive.

 

[Maui]

So have you scratched that 911 itch?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No, I still have the itch. Haven't been looking very hard and not looking forward to selling a car to get one. I know so little about Porsches that I don't know what to look at. I like the older ones for the classic style, but I love the newer ones for the comfort and convenience.

 

[ace10]

Cargurus sends me an email on a (seemingly) weekly basis every time the San Diego Porsche dealer lowers the Ask on this 964T. Been watching it for the better part of a year.

The 3.3T is one of my favorite P-car models.

This one is not perfect, but it's got proper Speedlines and a reasonable odo. Clean Carfax, too.


https://www.porschesandiego.com/used/Porsche/1991-Porsche-911-a039473f0a0e0ae816564cf5129bc437.htm





I keep telling myself that this one is crusty and it just isn't showing in the pics. No other reasonable explanation for this:





Someone please buy this car.

 

[BigWillieStyle]

I like 911s with a third pedal, don't even bother with that open-top nonsense. It's like an open face sandwich smothered in mayonnaise.

I hate mayonnaise and salad dressing, salad is fine it's just the condiments of mystery splooge which have me twisted.

To me, outside of BBQ if a condiment bottle says "Special" then it might as well say "Ebola."

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