500E Red Baron (1of1 Brabus 6.5) .. no longer has hiccups!

[195910]

For the past 4 years, you have seen the Red Baron (1of1 Brabus 6.5 based on 1of 147 Factory E60 AMG) move from one achievement to another. From classic cars shows, to motorsport events, to national Concours d'Elegance competitions, to prominent international carshows and tier 1 international concours d'Elegance competitions. The Red baron continued to improve from one show to another both technically and cosmetically, and I continued expand the documentation and history files. We are a long way from where we started 4 years ago.

I dedicate this to my fellow 124036 owners all over the world, I hope to have made a small contribution to this community and made you all a bit more proud of owning this car.
---------------------

- Now to the main event: the Red baron as with many 124036 all over the world developed a misfire at idle, but this might have been the most difficult case yet for the following reasons:

1 - The technical differences to standard 124036, the issue was much more difficult to diagnose as you can't compare against other 500E/E500 and not even with E60s, I Could not swap parts with another car (nor did I have another 124036 to swap parts with), I must say that ( B ) did not provide any assistance (not even to the M-B Dealership) and said the car must be brought to B HQ... I later found out why.

2 - Multiple small intermittent issues causing the same symptoms that made pin pointing the exact issue impossible.

3 - Factory diagnostic tool showed nothing! live data was misleading and caused us to replaced a number of parts that were not the issue.

4- The distributor misfire is a well known issue in the M119 community, and the symptoms are known by now. It was showing different symptoms.

- Who was involved: The issue did not start in Q8 but rather in the UK, car was smoother in Q8. So our independent master tech in Q8 was only able to contribute over the phone, but of course was helpful. In Germany it went to a M-B Dealerships with a youngtimer master tech and a Bosch center specializing in youngtimer cars. A mercedes youngtimer parts manufacturer, A mercedes Youngtimer specialist in New York, During a carshow last year it was looked at by two M-B young timer specialists at the same time (one from Kuppenheim, the other from bochum), and finally this year at Technoclassica it was checked by a very prominent Automotive figure from Bottrop (see thread Red baron at Technoclassica).
Throughout all this I was reading every forum, magazine article, website, repair video, workshop document there is. We ended up changing and upgrading all the usual suspects and a few more. ALL of which had zero effect !! You can imagine the frustration and $$$$ assiociated with all this, only thing that cheers me up is seeing it at the shows.

- Symptom: Intermittent hiccup (misfire) at warm idle, no issues during cold start/warmup, not divisibility issues at high speed, kick down or acceleration.

- Why was it impossible to diagnose? car was showing constant lean running condition, everyone mentioned above had the exact same conclusion.
- Was there a lean condition? No, exhaust smells of fuel while Star says constant lean, hence the confusion.
- Why a constant lean if it just an Intermittent misfire? here is where the specific technical specification comes into place,

 

[Stevester 500E]

what fixed the hiccups?

 

[195910]

Back to the thread.

- The cure:

A collective of information from the M-B M119 documentation, The #1 diagnostics expert from the USA and experiences by our forum members here, most notably a thread from a member here regarding a lean condition on a M104 block.

1- The M104 thread gave me a new idea where the constant lean is actually a misfire where the unburned oxygen was being read as a lean mixture.
2 - Read more about the combustion process especially during idle, I found this to be logical.
3 - Reading through the M119 documentation, I found the M119 ignition and combustion values.
4 - Star Live data was useless, time for new tools: scope it !
5 - Less than an hour later: left bank was fine, right bank voltage was all over the place and occasionally giving full coil power through plug lead 1. Zaping the block. This indicated a partial open plug lead, it turned out lead 1 does not clip securely into place and had a gap.
6 - A new Original set of plugs were fitted, things looked much better! the voltage is within spec, but occasional voltage dips on the hiccup (per the pico thread)
7 - Now having in mind the common issues everyone is facing, I pulled off the right distributor and discovered that the pins had corrosion!
8 - Furious of the sight, I decided to fit the old mid 1990 production distributor cap after cleaning everything
9 - A 1 hour drive later, car finally adapted and everything became according to spec. (MAF, Lambda, injection, ignition)
10 - Another 1 hour drive 2 weeks later confirmed values, though this caps issue has got to stop. We cant go around cleaning them with brake cleaner every few weeks.

* The ignition distributors were replaced last year with brand new 2017 production Beru distributors. Exactly 1 year and 3000km later the right bank had corrosion and condensation (see picture 1), the mid 1990s production the old distributor was refitted and showed better values and NO misfires.

** Here is a test for everyone to try: If your car has no vacuum leaks, with the engine running, fully warm and occasionally misfiring (can be heard through the exhaust), switch on the AC with fan on high. Is the misfire gone or at least a lot less audible ?
If so, then its the increase in fuel which the ECU injects (injection time increased by +0.5ms) to compensate for the increased load, making the mixture easier to burn and easier for the voltage to go through. Instead of occasionally going through the block because its an easier route. A draw back is that the whole street will smell of fuel!

 

[Kyiv]

So, at the end, it was basically distributor caps... I like how many mount Olympus experts couldn't figure this one out, LMAO

Congratulations on solving the the problem!

 

[JC220]

So, at the end, it was basically distributor caps... I like how many mount Olympus experts couldn't figure this one out, LMAO

Congratulations on solving the the problem!

I don't know what I was expecting with the lead up- but not that so many had missed the very typical m119 distributer issues Nothing really new here - sorry

 

[195910]

No Gentlemen you have to wait for the 3 post.

 

[Stevester 500E]

This is why I would like a distributor-less M119. I had a similar issue with my car. I bought brand new Bosch caps, a very very short time later I returned them to the seller. The seller had a good return policy and gladly took them back. I have various sets of used caps, I would clean one or two up, play the swap game. I am running used caps and the car runs better than with the brand new caps. So, from time to time, at the yards, I pull old caps. I see corrosion on some, in various places.

 

[gsxr]

Funny story... I had a similar issue on a 500E, with a hiccup / misfire ONLY at warm/hot idle. Under load, and any other circumstances, it ran perfectly. Couldn't be the caps, as they were brand-new Bosch (aftermarket) with <500 miles on them. Zero corrosion visible on cap terminals. New rotors/insulators/wires/plugs too.

Root cause? Defective cap, new Bosch out of the box. Replaced the perfect-looking Bosch cap for a different new cap, problem was solved permanently. Since then I've been buying Beru caps and haven't had problems, yet. (Beru rotors are reboxed OE Doduco, btw. Beru caps just say made in Germany and have no identifying marks otherwise.)

BTW - Klink has stated elsewhere on the forum that 99.99% of the time, corrosion visible on the bottom cap terminals will not affect operation. If it does, that is unusual. Generally, the voltage is high enough to poke through any visible corrosion, if there is not a problem elsewhere in the circuit.

 

[Stevester 500E]

I have a used, I believe (off the top of my head) Beru cap, with one corroded outside terminal. The other terminals are really clean and shiny.
What causes am outter "spark plug" terminal on a cap to corrode, but not the others?

 

[Stevester 500E]

Part 3....

 

[Stevester 500E]

Has anyone tried taping a silica bag, like the ones put in show boxes, inside an M119 cap to see if it absorbs the moisture that gets in these caps?
If anyone tries this, weigh the little bag before and after.

 

[195910]

Post 3.

As mentioned above by the Gentlemen: What's the big deal?! people have been complaining about these distributors for year!

1 - The two issues in the ignition system were not diagnosed by all the parties mentioned in the first post. The M-B dealership did not see the usual lower voltage pattern caused by the caps and said its definitely false air but could not determine where, they spoke to ( B ) who said its definitely the ECU and wanted the whole car in. Bosch center were more helpful, their owner owns a 500E since new and had a spare set of original M-B Caps, which were fitted only to see NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL!!
So the car was scope tested twice and had an original set of M-B distributors tested. Just showed the same crap. The two issues gave opposite symptoms so it was impossible to figure out what's wrong.

2 - In addition to what everyone is seeing, the ignition shorting to block was messing up the live data values, e.g ON/OFF ratio was at 10-18% !!
Which was causing us to suspect all kinds of thing.

- Yesterday I had the dust cover removed to check if there are any oil traces from the cam o-ring (picture attached), and there was nothing!! no stains nor traces, but the dust cap had condensation and the outer rim had a layer of oil (1996 production bosch installed 1 year ago). The distributor cap (old original) and beru rotor which was installed 1 year ago had condensation, no sticky oil or anything like that, just a mist. I cleaned and installed the old dust cap which is a 1992 production original M-B with what appears to be a a layer of clear coat insulation.

I now suspect its the caps or covers have defective material that extracting some kind of oil.

Picture 1 : Right bank cam seal area - is spotless, no oil condensation at all! wiped with workshop paper towel, nothing.
Picture 2: Dust covers - difference between 1992 production and 1996.
Picture 3: Old distributor cap after 2 weeks - shows condensation.
Picture 4: Left bank distributor also showing condensation.

 

[195910]

I have a used, I believe (off the top of my head) Beru cap, with one corroded outside terminal. The other terminals are really clean and shiny.
What causes am outter "spark plug" terminal on a cap to corrode, but not the others?

Interestingly Those are cylinders 1 and 8, I had cylinder 1 terminal showing corrosion. They are both at the bottom of the cap.

 

[Taxi Driver]

Oh, CRAP... don't know how many times I myself have fiddled with the C(R)APS!
Why is this happening to us? The M119 980 in my CL 500 and AMG E50 are soooo smoth, wonder...Why...

I have from time to time again been thinking, yes I have, of some way around this problem.
We have to ger rid of the High Current Distributor Caps, how?
We really need Coils on plug, I think, how?
It seems very tricky, elaborate, to do the ME convertion, as what I know, NO ONE on this Earth have done.

Deep in the back of my head, lies a thought about, here it comes, a reliable way of Distributing the low
tension current from the EZL, via two distributors in place of the original ones.
Do you follow my thinking? From these low current distributors it would be sent impulses to the Coil
on plug and we have a conceald High tension system with only one spark i.e in the combustion chamber!
Good bye to the Lightning factory inside the distributors. I wonder if the EZL would mind, as it only make
its signal or pulse to eight instead of two coils.

IF, it could be feasible, the upside is, OEM appearence, and if the LH and EZL does'nt know or detect,
the functions would be untouched, as knocksensoring ign. retard, etc... I don't know, but to rid the
everlasting Crap CAPS, that would be really nice so, what about...

 

[195910]

I don't think we need to go through all that, these cars were running great for two decades, its only recently that this crap started to happen.
I had a miss at idle in my old 500E, it had +200TKM with the factory caps&rotor and years later as with most of us we found out its the cracked covers.

The Baron was the smoothest running 124036 in Q8, the car is technically in its best form but the sweating caps/covers has got to stop. M-B has to return to the original quality. We have to start a petition or complaint to the parts department.

 

[JC220]

I must say I personally do feel that the distributer caps ignition system on the 500E is its achilles' heel. It did recently break down on me a few months back due to this issue which was pretty annoying and most disappointing being my 500E is the best / most expensive car in my motley fleet.

My m104 HFM models run like clocks and never miss a beat given they have ignition coils. They are uber reliable in comparison and if I were to choose a car to go across yurop it would be a m104 model

I am very much interested in any thoughts on converting a 500E to later m119 coil packs if it is at all possible. I'm quite sure most anything of this nature is possible - but will take someone knowledgable and to throw some ££££ at it.

 

[gsxr]

It's been discussed elsewhere, but I don't believe it is possible to retain EZL + LH control if switching to coil packs.

You can ditch all the factory engine controls and go full aftermarket standwlone ECU with coil packs, but I really, really don't think it's worth the effort on a stock engine. The distributor caps work fine 99% of the time. It's the remaining 1% that is maddening though.

 

[Taxi Driver]

It's been discussed elsewhere, but I don't believe it is possible to retain EZL + LH control if switching to coil packs.

You can ditch all the factory engine controls and go full aftermarket standwlone ECU with coil packs, but I really, really don't think it's worth the effort on a stock engine. The distributor caps work fine 99% of the time. It's the remaining 1% that is maddening though.

Dave, I'm sorry if you missed the point here, no one is advocating "stand alone" or "ditching" (awful word) no
just letting all ECU's as is, would never even think of, going that route beside OEM function...
ps about that 1% I don't know, I'd say 10, at least, unacceptable failures...

 

[JC220]

It's been discussed elsewhere, but I don't believe it is possible to retain EZL + LH control if switching to coil packs.

You can ditch all the factory engine controls and go full aftermarket standwlone ECU with coil packs, but I really, really don't think it's worth the effort on a stock engine. The distributor caps work fine 99% of the time. It's the remaining 1% that is maddening though.

Yes true - 60% of the time it works every time In my mind I wasnt thinking of full standalone ECU, more like a "piggy back" ignition coil pack controller if such a device exists and fit the later off the shelf m119 valve covers, coil packs etc. But alas, not a big enough probem to bother with myself. And the EZL is a more cunning device than it's given credit for...... quite a complex unit so maybe not as simple as it might first appear.

 

[195910]

I must say I personally do feel that the distributer caps ignition system on the 500E is its achilles' heel. It did recently break down on me a few months back due to this issue which was pretty annoying and most disappointing being my 500E is the best / most expensive car in my motley fleet.

My m104 HFM models run like clocks and never miss a beat given they have ignition coils. They are uber reliable in comparison and if I were to choose a car to go across yurop it would be a m104 model

I would disagree there mate, I have been driving all over Europe to all the Carshows for the past 3 years WITH this issue, doing 3-4 hours journey and back. Driving it more is the key to less issues. It drove perfectly but now feels even more powerful.

** Second Test: drive the 124036 for a long distance doing higher speeds, allowing it to reach +90c operating temperatures for a long duration. Does the car run smooth afterwards? if so, leave it to Idle a couple of minutes, does it miss when left idling for sometime?

 

[little_e]

This is just like my car. Maybe I should swap my Bosch caps and rotors for Beru...

 

[195910]

This is just like my car. Maybe I should swap my Bosch caps and rotors for Beru...

No the Beru caps have the same problem. The inner surface of the cap is smooth and most likely coated (which is good), but the spark plug lead terminals are rather poor quality with the plastic coating chipping off and on my set the right bank cap developed corrosion on the terminals after 1 year of use.

The old mid 1990s bosch caps don't have any corrosion, though the terminals are partially worn and had carbon deposits so I had to clean them with sanding paper and files. Wiping them with acetone reveals a yellow-ish contaminant.

 

[195910]

Does anyone know the adaptation values from their 124036 ?

The Baron has an "unsual" setup and I am running sport air filters. so I would like to see the typical adaptation values on the E500.

 

[little_e]

No the Beru caps have the same problem. The inner surface of the cap is smooth and most likely coated (which is good), but the spark plug lead terminals are rather poor quality with the plastic coating chipping off and on my set the right bank cap developed corrosion on the terminals after 1 year of use.

The old mid 1990s bosch caps don't have any corrosion, though the terminals are partially worn and had carbon deposits so I had to clean them with sanding paper and files. Wiping them with acetone reveals a yellow-ish contaminant.

So nothing can be done?

 

[195910]

So nothing can be done?

This is what I am trying to find out:

1 - Is the plastic material used in the cap, rotor or dust cover secreting the oily substance? It can't be absorbing that much oil!
2- Are the new production M-B Original distributors caps ( post 2017 production) coated with an insulating layer?
3 - Are the new dust covers coated with an insulating layer ?


I can confirm the following:

1 - Original M-B caps till the mid 201x period all suffered from the same issue.
2 - Bosch/Original covers produced after mid 1990s had no insulation layer.
3 - Behind the dust cover (at least in baron) was completely dry. so it could not have been contaminated for the cam o-ring or adjuster. The side of the dust cover facing the distributor is wetter than the side facing the cam o-ring.
4 - While the left cap was completely misted and even had a drop of light oil on the the #8 plug terminal, the engine block behind it was completely dry.

I am willing to buy all new caps, rotos and dust shield if M-B fixed the quality problem. But I don't see proof of this, they are in denial.

 

[TerryA]

This sweating problem seems to persist in the colder Northern Europe countries. At least that’s my perception reading the different treads on this site. The cold temps and high humidity certainly contribute to this problem.

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Q8 a hot and dry climate? Was the Baron having this problem at home or in Europe?

Living in SoCal I don’t seem to have this problem. I changed the distributor caps and rotors at least 10 years ago (dust covers are original to me) and am still satisfied with there performance. If there’s a miss once in a while it was not enough to aggravate me.

I think this is mostly a cold climate issue.

Just my opinion. I don’t wast to start a war.

 

[JC220]

This is what I am trying to find out:

1 - Is the plastic material used in the cap, rotor or dust cover secreting the oily substance? It can't be absorbing that much oil!

I dont think the oil misting is wicking out of the plastics themselves. But rather coming as blow by from the radial rubber seal at the camshaft. This is my theory anyway on the source of the minor oil spotting contamination that can occur on the inside of the dizzy caps.

I will be renewing both of my m119 car's cam oil seals. The original items are quite hard now and not sealing as they could/ should IMO. Whereas new seals are nice and flexible

 

[gsxr]

Does anyone know the adaptation values from their 124036 ? The Baron has an "unsual" setup and I am running sport air filters. so I would like to see the typical adaptation values on the E500.

On a stock 5.0L or 4.2L, I generally see values in the 0.9xxx range. With a 1992 LH module in a 1993-up engine, values are generally either high 0.9x or low 1.0x range. Since your car is larger displacement, it may have slightly different adaptation values, depending how Brabus calibrated the fuel curve.

I dont think the oil misting is wicking out of the plastics themselves. But rather coming as blow by from the radial rubber seal at the camshaft. This is my theory anyway on the source of the minor oil spotting contamination that can occur on the inside of the dizzy caps.

I'm still not sure about this. On the insulators I've found with liquid on the rear, the liquid has always been clear color, or at least very light. Engine oil tends to be brown or dark. I'm not saying it isn't related to engine oil, but I can't explain the color difference.

However, it would not be a bad idea to replace these seals on principle if they are old/original. The seals are cheap.

 

[195910]

This sweating problem seems to persist in the colder Northern Europe countries. At least that’s my perception reading the different treads on this site. The cold temps and high humidity certainly contribute to this problem.

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Q8 a hot and dry climate? Was the Baron having this problem at home or in Europe?

Living in SoCal I don’t seem to have this problem. I changed the distributor caps and rotors at least 10 years ago (dust covers are original to me) and am still satisfied with there performance. If there’s a miss once in a while it was not enough to aggravate me.

I think this is mostly a cold climate issue.

Just my opinion. I don’t wast to start a war.

Hi Terry,

It never had this issue in Q8, actually this issue is almost non-existing over there!
Which also contradicts the leaking cam seal or condensation, as we have much more oil evaporation due to the extreme heat, engines on older Mercedes are just covered with a layer of dusty oil film... but they don't misfire!!

It started in Europe... must be a plot by the grün against V8 Mercs

 

[195910]

On a stock 5.0L or 4.2L, I generally see values in the 0.9xxx range. With a 1992 LH module in a 1993-up engine, values are generally either high 0.9x or low 1.0x range. Since your car is larger displacement, it may have slightly different adaptation values, depending how Brabus calibrated the fuel curve.



I'm still not sure about this. On the insulators I've found with liquid on the rear, the liquid has always been clear color, or at least very light. Engine oil tends to be brown or dark. I'm not saying it isn't related to engine oil, but I can't explain the color difference.

However, it would not be a bad idea to replace these seals on principle if they are old/original. The seals are cheap.

Good point there Dave, condensation does not look like engine oil, its too light and almost transparent. I am using a 5W40 LM which is golden brown, the stains on the workshop paper towel was light yellow.

If it was engine oil there would be condensation of oil vapour everywhere. Just like a fryer.

 

[gerryvz]

I believe there is a combined environmental (heat, moisture, fumes, etc) and chemical reaction that causes a leeching of the plastic material that makes up the caps, creating the condensation. It's not motor oil.

 

[JC220]

FWIW dont just mean plain raw engine oil past the cam seals. To elaborate fully, engine oil particles combined with hydrocarbons and moisture from cylinder blow by gasses. Blow by gases contain fuel, air and moisture on a cold engine.

Remember that gold / brown engine oil may also look yellow /clear in tiny droplets.

What would be AWESOME is to have some of this mystery syrup lab tested! My cars all run new caps so I'll have to wait some years to have samples

 

[195910]

FWIW dont just mean plain raw engine oil past the cam seals. To elaborate fully, engine oil particles combined with hydrocarbons and moisture from cylinder blow by gasses. Blow by gases contain fuel, air and moisture on a cold engine.

Remember that gold / brown engine oil may also look yellow /clear in tiny droplets.

What would be AWESOME is to have some of this mystery syrup lab tested! My cars all run new caps so I'll have to wait some years to have samples

That is probably easier to do state side, anyone in the petrochemicals industry?

 

[195910]

I believe there is a combined environmental (heat, moisture, fumes, etc) and chemical reaction that causes a leeching of the plastic material that makes up the caps, creating the condensation. It's not motor oil.

This makes sense, I can't see any source for this much motor oil. It must be a chemical reaction

 

[195910]

Back to the Baron,

1 - Reading through the German forums, everyone with an M119LH seems to have the same issue regardless of Original/Bosch/Beru caps and rotors.
2 - Most conclusions point towards the seals. Is it possible that blow by gases are condensing on the caps rather than leaking oil ?
3 - Can the caps, rotors and covers by reused after cleaning? or do they absorb the oil and cleaning them is it just a waste of time ?

@JC220 suggested the theory on blow by, have you progress on this?

@gsxr : Adaptation is well within spec, both upper and lower are at 0.9144 (less than 10%) with idle correction at -2KG after nearly 200km of mixed conditions driving. Brabus uses the original AMG 6L module as the base.

 

[195910]

Here is the left side, also no oil stains nor leaks. I haven't opened the dust cover on the left side in over a year when I installed the new dust cover. (picture 1)

Everything looks okay since I cleaned the caps and rotors 2 weeks ago, though I haven't started it since. (pictue 3)
This could indicate blow by gases from the cam seal condensing between the cap and cover. The only spot where I can see oil is on the dust cap edges (see picture 2)

 

[Rouven036]

I had the hickup also since long time (ever?) or can't remember when it started. I replaced the caps somewhen in the mid 2000s due to this. Only to find the same again. The caps had small "lightning" streaks from the center to a few of the outer electrodes. Non removable by any cleaning material. I just replaced the rear insulators last year and they seemed to be the factory installed ones as how they looked (see my owners thread). However I did not change the caps again. No missfire anymore. All original parts only

 

[Stevester 500E]

Back to the Baron,

1 - Reading through the German forums, everyone with an M119LH seems to have the same issue regardless of Original/Bosch/Beru caps and rotors.
....

And Mercedes knew about this too.
Glad my first Mercedes was a 1993 W124 Coupe (no caps and rotors, no EZL, ) otherwise, had I bought a Mercedes with this cap/rotor/insulator issue, I might have been really soured over German engineering.....

Hmmmmm, so why did Mercedes wait until 1996 to employ HMF in the V8's? hmmm

 

[195910]

And Mercedes knew about this too.
Glad my first Mercedes was a 1993 W124 Coupe (no caps and rotors, no EZL, ) otherwise, had I bought a Mercedes with this cap/roto/insulator issue, I might have been really soured over German engineering.....

Hmmmmm, so why did Mercedes wait until 1996 to employ HMF in the V8's? hmmm

It really wasn't a problem on the V8s till the 2010s, at most you would have those hiccups from the dust caps.

 

[195910]

New Update,

Replacing the cam seals, old seal started oozing oil once I started to pinch it.
noticed the the new seals sit further inside comparing to the old ones. Is this normal?

Feedback and pictures appreciated.

 

[JC220]

New Update,

Replacing the cam seals, old seal started oozing oil once I started to pinch it.
noticed the the new seals sit further inside comparing to the old ones. Is this normal?

Feedback and pictures appreciated.

Yes those seals do sit in a little bit. I left my originals in place and cleaned all up. Before I fit the new seal rings I want to accurately measure the depth of the seal and follow that for the new ones so they are set exactly correct.

I will post the dimension and photos tomorrow for you as a ref.

 

[195910]

Yes those seals do sit in a little bit. I left my originals in place and cleaned all up. Before I fit the new seal rings I want to accurately measure the depth of the seal and follow that for the new ones so they are set exactly correct.

I will post the dimension and photos tomorrow for you as a ref.

I lightly tapped the new seals in till they became firm, I don't think it will go in more than its supposed to.
Could it be that the old seal have slightly popped out with age/time?

 

[TerryA]

I lightly tapped the new seals in till they became firm, I don't think it will go in more than its supposed to.
Could it be that the old seal have slightly popped out with age/time?

IMOP, I would say unlikely. Original seals age (if original) is most likely culprit in oil seepage.

It probably was just not seated properly but was good enough to hold back the oil for 25 years or so. To me, depth is not as important to me as to set the seal parallel / perpendicular to shaft.

 

[gerryvz]

Was this a replacement factory seal? Did you compare it to the one that was removed? It does look a bit far set in.

I'm wondering, like with crankshaft seals, if there is an off-set whereby the replacement seal sits in a slightly different location on the cam so as to avoid any grooving or scoring type wear from where the original seal sat on the cam nose.

Personally, I don't think it's a bad thing for the new seal to be in a slightly different position than the old one, as it will have the full "meat" of the cam's rotating surface to seal against, rather than the slightly worn part from the old seal. My two cents.

Would be good to get comments from @gsxr or @Klink

 

[195910]

Was this a replacement factory seal? Did you compare it to the one that was removed? It does look a bit far set in.

I'm wondering, like with crankshaft seals, if there is an off-set whereby the replacement seal sits in a slightly different location on the cam so as to avoid any grooving or scoring type wear from where the original seal sat on the cam nose.

Personally, I don't think it's a bad thing for the new seal to be in a slightly different position than the old one, as it will have the full "meat" of the cam's rotating surface to seal against, rather than the slightly worn part from the old seal. My two cents.

Would be good to get comments from @gsxr or @Klink

Yes both old and new are M-B original, new one has an updated part number A0189977947. Old seal was A0109976247. Both have the dimensions 30x40x7.

This one needs our experts advice.

I am happy with the bosch dust covers and beru (Deduco) rotors. The OE parts look exactly the same and from the same manufacturers.
I am not going to change the 2017 Beru caps since they are only 1 year old, and not proven to cause issues. I like the copper terminals and the coated inner surface which I think is beneficial.

 

[JC220]

Yes both old and new are M-B original, new one has an updated part number A0189977947. Old seal was A0109976247. Both have the dimensions 30x40x7.

This one needs our experts advice.

I am happy with the bosch dust covers and beru (Deduco) rotors. The OE parts look exactly the same and from the same manufacturers.
I am not going to change the 2017 Beru caps since they are only 1 year old, and not proven to cause issues. I like the copper terminals and the coated inner surface which I think is beneficial.

See the WIS attached which states a 5mm setback on the seal. Doesn't sound right to me.

Allow me some time to properly get into this. I am best placed at the moment since I have:

A complete m119 with valve covers off
A stripped down m119 with camshafts out
A pair of m119 alu covers which holds these seals removed and cleaned with original seals still in there
New MB seals ready to measure / compare
New digital calipers coming early next week (My old ones are not working properly)

 

[gsxr]

The original seals are more flush. The FSM/WIS indicate a deeper setback than seems normal.

When replacing the seal, you can either set it to the same depth as the originals, or set it deeper by around 2mm or so. This requires measuring BEFORE removing the old ones. An offset is recommended if there is any hint of a ridge worn into the surface where the seal lip rides, but otherwise won't matter.

Installed "too deep" is only an issue if the rear part of the seal sticks out the back side, which means it doesn't have as much surface area to hold it in place, which isn't ideal.

 

[195910]

See the WIS attached which states a 5mm setback on the seal. Doesn't sound right to me.

Allow me some time to properly get into this. I am best placed at the moment since I have:

A complete m119 with valve covers off
A stripped down m119 with camshafts out
A pair of m119 alu covers which holds these seals removed and cleaned with original seals still in there
New MB seals ready to measure / compare
New digital calipers coming early next week (My old ones are not working properly)

Very Nice find Mate, And here is another interesting find:

I just measured the depth of the new seal from the cover face, it is 5MM !!
Which means either the WIS has a newer updated procedure, or the seals get pushed out with time. Any comments on this ?

 

[195910]

The original seals are more flush. The FSM/WIS indicate a deeper setback than seems normal.

When replacing the seal, you can either set it to the same depth as the originals, or set it deeper by around 2mm or so. This requires measuring BEFORE removing the old ones. An offset is recommended if there is any hint of a ridge worn into the surface where the seal lip rides, but otherwise won't matter.

Installed "too deep" is only an issue if the rear part of the seal sticks out the back side, which means it doesn't have as much surface area to hold it in place, which isn't ideal.

Hi dave, any thoughts on the WIS file ?

 

[gsxr]

It's far more likely to be an error in the WIS / FSM. Not the first time we've found errors in the factory docs, unfortunately.

http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/01-2140.pdf

The 5mm depth is probably fine, btw - I'd leave it alone, if it isn't leaking!