Spark but no start; intermittent

[Stevester 500E]

I have not checked codes but want to see if anyone has had a similar issue that can point me in the right direction.

In the morning:
Cold start, the car fires right up and runs well.
Drive it a few blocks and park.
Try to start 10 minutes later and hesitates to start, car sputters, sound like maybe all cylinders are not firing.

My initial thought was moisture inside cap and rotor. But I would think that would happen first thing in the morning and as the car would run and warm up, the moisture would dry up and dissipate.

Then I thought, could this be the ezl,
But I thought when ezls went bad, they went completely bad, never to start a car again with a bad ezl?

Any ideas of the top of your head?

Thanks

 

[bluediamond 28]

You need a spark tester .An little pen like tool that you pop on the ignition leads one at a time to see if they are firing up .The thing is you must first find out if you have spark ,then fuel . For a first check go to the fuse box and clean all the fuses ,or turn them in the holder they sit in .Next thing i would check is all the earth points ,remove clean them up and put a little grease on them before re fitting them. Let members know how you get on ..

 

[Glen]

Steve,
Sounds like the same issue I had a few years ago. A new FPR fixed the issue. See this thread: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3728&highlight=fuel+pressure+regulator

Glen

 

[bluediamond 28]

Glen yes i am with you .But first to check all other simple items before pulling out the FPR

 

[gerryvz]

I'd still check caps and rotors.

EZLs fail either in one of two modes:

1) car won't start at all -- no spark sent to any cylinder.

2) car only runs on four cylinders -- EZL only sends signal to fire one bank of cylinders. Car will run extremely rough and you will smell fuel all over from the dead cylinders.

Glen may well be correct. I have a HOW-TO article on testing M119 and M104 fuel pressure. This directly tests the efficacy of the FPR. But it's an easy and cheap replacement and IMHO it should be done every 100-125K miles.


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[gsxr]

Cold start, the car fires right up and runs well.Drive it a few blocks and park.
Try to start 10 minutes later and hesitates to start, car sputters, sound like maybe all cylinders are not firing.
My initial thought was moisture inside cap and rotor. But I would think that would happen first thing in the morning and as the car would run and warm up, the moisture would dry up and dissipate.

Those symptoms sound VERY similar to what happens when fluid is on the back side of the insulators (remember, the cap+rotor can be perfect). Starts fine, runs fine for 5-15 minutes after cold start, shut down for 5-10 mins, and it either won't re-start or misfires badly. Wait 30+ minutes and it probably starts/runs fine, may run fine as long as the car is driven daily... until it's parked for a couple weeks, then the whole thing repeats. Again, this is NOT due to moisture/fluid inside the cap & rotor.

Then I thought, could this be the ezl,
But I thought when ezls went bad, they went completely bad, never to start a car again with a bad ezl?

EZL failures tend to be permanent; either 1 cylinder bank or both. If the car re-starts eventually and runs ok, it's not the EZL.


But anyway - also check the FPR as mentioned by Glen & Gerry. Easy to rule out. Or if you have a spare FPR, just swap it and see if the problem goes away permanently, or not...

 

[JC220]

The function of the FPR can be tested rather easily using this DIY-


http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5455


But I also second checking / replacing the Insulators behind the Distributer Caps.

 

[Stevester 500E]

Thanks guys for the info.
I was thinking fuel pressure related. But it made me think twice since it is intermittent.
I will report later as to what it was.

Cheers.

Steve,
Sounds like the same issue I had a few years ago. A new FPR fixed the issue. See this thread: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3728&highlight=fuel+pressure+regulator

Glen

 

[Stevester 500E]

I think I will just start by replacing the FPR, as it probably has over 100K miles on it.
Thanks.

.... But it's an easy and cheap replacement and IMHO it should be done every 100-125K miles.


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[Stevester 500E]

I have the not installed the FPR yet.
Today I started the car, warmed it up before driving and during the drive, it started sputtering and cut out.
I had to wait about 25-30 minutes before it would start.
Does this still sound consistent with a bad FPR?
The only new symptom is that the motor but out while driving.

Any chance it might be the alternator or lower engine harness?

Steve,
Sounds like the same issue I had a few years ago. A new FPR fixed the issue. See this thread: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3728&highlight=fuel+pressure+regulator

Glen

 

[gsxr]

Today I started the car, warmed it up before driving and during the drive, it started sputtering and cut out.
I had to wait about 25-30 minutes before it would start.
Does this still sound consistent with a bad FPR?
The only new symptom is that the motor but out while driving.

See post #6 above.

Any chance it might be the alternator or lower engine harness?

Very unlikely.

 

[Stevester 500E]

Any pics with water behind the insulators?
How does one prevent getting water behind the insulators?

 

[nocfn]

Here ya go

 

[gsxr]

The liquid is not water. It does not evaporate.

 

[Klink]

It seems that the material disintegrates and precipitates a coating, then it seems to me that this coating attracts moisture.
It's kind of like what you see if you have a metallic surface slightly wet with brake fluid. It seems to endlessly attract moisture, and never seems to "dry out".

 

[Stevester 500E]

So this moisture or mystery liquid cause a disruption in spark?

 

[Klink]

So this moisture or mystery liquid cause a disruption in spark?

Yes. It gets on the inside of the distributor caps, probably gets on the rotors too, and it winds up shorting the spark to the cylinder head.

 

[bluediamond 28]

Crank position sensor can give you just what your having . The pump will turn on for 1.5 seconds The cps sends a message to the ecu to fire up the pump after 1.5 seconds .And if the signal is not sent the pump will cut off . Your car will then run till fuel is used up . And if you have spark , then why play with the disc at the rear of distributor. - no1 do you have a spark no2 do you have fuel? .Have you looked at the fuses in the fuse box for intermitant contact .When it stops check the check valve on the fuel rail .This is like a scharader tyre valve ,press it in after engine cuts out with a small screw driver.Put rags around the area for fuel that will exit the valve .Fuel will come out if pumps are ok .No fuel pump problem or cps as i said before.

 

[gerryvz]

Stevester,

You can check the abilities and condition of your fuel pressure regulator quite simply, without removing it. Just connect a fuel pressure gauge to the fuel rail and see what the bleed-down is after starting the engine. The M119 and M104 use the exact same fuel pressure bung, and even the same FPR itself.

This is quite simple and easy to do. There is a complete HOW-TO on the topic, here: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5455

And the HOW-TO on actually REPLACING the FPR, if this is actually required: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2101

 

[gsxr]

If the CPS is bad, typically the result is the engine just dying / stalling. If the engine misfires / runs badly, it is far more likely to be ignition related, and very unlikely to be either FPR or CPS.

FPR swap takes all of 15 minutes, just replace the silly thing and see what happens.

 

[Hakie]

I also needed to check the insulators and caps of the 400E because it misfired. The insulators looked like new and the caps have only 5000 Miles on them but it was very wet. The car is in the garage (wintertime) and i dont use it. Anyway, here are a few more pictures:

 

[gerryvz]

Wow! That's some serious "sweating". Gnarly carbon tracks, too.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Stevester 500E]

Ok. It looks like its time to replace the caps, rotors and insulators.
Best source for these parts, AutohausAZ? Naperville???
Thanks for all your help.
FPR will be replaced as maintenance.

See post #6 above.



Very unlikely.

 

[Glen]

Ok. It looks like its time to replace the caps, rotors and insulators.
Best source for these parts, AutohausAZ? Naperville???
Thanks for all your help.
FPR will be replaced as maintenance.

It would be helpful to replace the FPR separately from the ignition components so you can pinpoint the actual problem part. If you do everything all at once, you'll never know what the actual problem was.

 

[gsxr]

It would be helpful to replace the FPR separately from the ignition components so you can pinpoint the actual problem part. If you do everything all at once, you'll never know what the actual problem was.

And also remove / inspect the ignition parts before buying new ones. Removal for inspection / cleaning is free. No point in replacing stuff that may be perfectly serviceable. Just tryin' to save you a few bux... as to vendor, you'll have to shop around. Keep in mind FCP Euro offers lifetime warranty, which may offset them not having the absolute lowest cost.

 

[Stevester 500E]

Yes. I am going to do that.
One thing is for sure, I need new ignition parts, no doubt about it.
Those are going in first without a doubt.

It would be helpful to replace the FPR separately from the ignition components so you can pinpoint the actual problem part. If you do everything all at once, you'll never know what the actual problem was.

 

[2phast]

If the CPS is bad, typically the result is the engine just dying / stalling. If the engine misfires / runs badly, it is far more likely to be ignition related, and very unlikely to be either FPR or CPS.

FPR swap takes all of 15 minutes, just replace the silly thing and see what happens.

This is true, the CPS being bad results in a running engine dyeing and unable to restart (at least for several hours, till it cools down)

 

[Stevester 500E]

No bargains to be found on these ignition parts....
I haven't found any sweat resistant insulators.
I am considering making my own.....