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The "Verboten Topics" Mother of All Threads

Jesus, @LWB250... I guess I know how my kids will talk about me... while I'm no one's corporate executive, kids generally have to earn what they want... I grew up poor so I give them enough to keep them focused... they're not worried about the right shoes, clothes or cars... and of course all tuition and fees have been courtesy of the Bank of Dad... so they can focus on higher level thoughts... but failure to so focus is clearly their problem not mine.

I'm gonna go back to ... "America will be fine"... as long as we just keep making ships (opportunities, allegorically).

maw
Heh. Well said. When I was a kid/teenager I thought my Dad was a real d*ck. By the time I was in my late 20s I was thanking him. We never wanted for anything, believe me, but I didn't get the latest and greatest clothing or other accoutrements. And schooling was paramount. When you were in college you were not allowed to work, because you were expected to be focusing on your studies. That was your "job". I chose not to go to college because I wasn't mature enough to handle it, like lots of high school aged kids. The difference was, I knew it. I worked for a couple of years and then went to trade school to become a mechanic. The Bank of Dad wrote those checks, as it did for my siblings who went to college.
 
'Well... if you just work hard enough, you'll make it'. In my opinion, this overlooks and trivializes all of the additional work required by some individuals who started behind the rest of us in this race and eventually pulled even, and leaves those that wern't given the right opportunities or gifted with the rightr skillset to 'catch up' as easy targets for demonization....

I've never felt privileged, maybe because my parents made it clear that we kids had to make our own way, and while they would help us somewhat, the ultimate results were of our own doing....
Were we privileged? By most standards, I guess we were, but I never felt like it. I had to bust my ass...

I got my paper route at age 11, and had it until age 16. Everything I had through graduation from high school, I earned myself...
Sure I was privileged, but I also had to "perform" to earn and keep the privilege...

I grew up poor so I give them enough to keep them focused... they're not worried about the right shoes, clothes or cars... and of course all tuition and fees have been courtesy of the Bank of Dad... so they can focus on higher level thoughts... but failure to so focus is clearly their problem not mine.

I grew up in the USA --- in some ways with more privilege and in some ways with less privilege than many of us here. The details are not so important, but I wish to bring up two observations:

As non-white immigrants to this country, my folks drilled into my head from an early age that I had to work 10 times harder and eat 10x more crap than the "average American" if I wanted to have a chance to succeed in this country. I didn't realize it at the time, but they were teaching me a life lesson about privilege or the lack thereof.

Later on in life, I remember shooting the shit with a buddy of mine ... we were taking a break from doing manual labor (demolishing a bathroom). My buddy is Black. We were comparing our life experiences, and he pointed out to me that he never EVER EVER refuses a receipt. Meaning --- if he buys something from the store and the cashier asks if he wants the receipt, he ALWAYS says "Yes," because he is afraid of walking out the door and being accused of stealing whatever item he just bought. I remember being floored at that because up until then, I had never even thought about that....... I am free to decline receipts at will. That was a real eye-opener for me!

So anyways, I have been given a lot in life and I am very grateful to have that privilege. At the same time, I think another way to define privilege is not "What has been given to me" but "What am I free to not think about that others have to worry about all the time?"

Anyways my point is not to try and guilt-trip people because I despise forced-wealth-distribution through social-engineering-guilt-tax, but to relay that my view of privilege has now been redefined as "freedom from worry."

Cheers.
 
So many good replies and discussion here, its hard to know where to start.
It is a fact of life, that life does not treat everyone equally. I am not as rich as Bill Gates or my boss Larry Ellison. Or even a fraction as rich as our resident high-tech tycoon @Jlaa or our investment genius @maw1124. Not all of us have 170 level IQs. I accept that. I also did not work as hard as I could have, to get into a prestigious taxpayer-funded University such as the US Naval Academy, located just 1.5 miles from where I sit. I am OK with that. My grandfather grew up on a farm in rural Fruitland, Idaho (not too far from the @gsxr global headquarters), quite poor, but yet my grandfather qualified for and attended the USNA, MIT, and University of Washington (where he met my grandmother).

That said, I am also not ashamed of, and will NEVER be cowed by, people who say that I am the beneficiary of "white privilege" and do not deserve what I have rightfully earned in my life. Nor that I should be mandated to give some of what I have, or what my parents and ancestors rightfully earned, to others less fortunate than I as "reparations." Nope. If some people want to do this, fine. Do we see Warren Buffet, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Elon Musk, Steve Ballmer, Barack Obama, and others giving their earned fortunes away as "reparations" to minority communities? Perhaps they give to some charities, perhaps to some organization who create cures for nasty diseases, perhaps to fight the global pandemic, but they do not give their fortunes away as reparations because they feel guilty to be well-off.

As I said, I will give away what I want to, to organizations I want to, to causes I care about and/or that are impactful. But I will NEVER NEVER NEVER part with money as a mandated "reparation" or as a "guilt payment" to something that I had nothing to do with. Do folks like Gates and Bezos and Obama (remember that Obama is the son of a privileged Kenyan father and American mother from a relatively wealthy white family, not a descendent of African-American slaves) pay reparations to descendents of Southern slaves? As a present-day German, should you feel direct guilt for something that happened generations before you? As a present-day American, should you feel direct guilt for something that happened many generations before you?

Only you can answer this question, in a very personal sense. But for me, I will not feel guilt about something that I had nothing to do with, that is for sure.

Does the fact that person A has a 170 level IQ, and is able to make a good living with it, make him "liable" to pay reparations to someone with a 100-level IQ? The 170 and 100 IQ people didn't have control over their IQ -- they were born with it. But where does it say that someone who is naturally advantaged should "owe" something to those who aren't.

What about someone who has MS, or Alzheimer's. Should people who don't get these diseases "owe" something to people who do? Or what about drug addicts, or alcoholics. Does someone who has an alcoholic gene, get "owed" something from those who don't? It's a damned, slippery, slope.
From my perspective, the discussion about reparations, or any sort of 'leveling the playing field' in a financial sense aren't made to imbue a sense of guilt or ashamed-ness (is that even a word!?) within the recipient. For example, I can honestly say that I don't have a sense of guilt or ashamed-ness (did it again!) with my past, or the actions of my family members that I have directly benefitted from and that got me to where I am today. And let me tell you, when half of your family is white from the south, and the other half is white nuvo-riche from the mid-west, I am fully aware that their isn't any way the hands of my predecessors are in anyway clean within this specific context. :)

These concepts and ideas are simply conversations/proposals/solutions that attempt to address the inequalities that are the result of the social construct in which we live and participate. That social construct is a direct result of the actions of our forefathers, just as the social construct our children and grandchildren will exist in will be the direct result of our actions. Additionally, I think there is a distinction between the natural advantages/disadvantages (IQ, alzheimers etc) that you discuss above, and advantages that come from the way our society is structured and functions. One of those was chosen for you by humans who can decide to change the construct, the other was left to the universe.

Even without a sense of guilt about my past, it's important to me to acknowledge that there seems to be large portions of our population struggling, to better understand the role that social construct plays in that struggle, and to see if there is any way to change that social construct so our future generations can exist in a more homogeneous equal, and harmonious society.

I think this is really the still the majorities ultimate goal in the end, we just can't seem to be able to work through the 325 million different ideas of how to get there at the moment.

We all struggle to understand the perspectives of those who have opposing viewpoints to ours. That is human nature.

The key, is to LISTEN, to ACKNOWLEDGE, and to try to find common ground. As opposed to a blanket "shut you down" attitude of invalidity and dismissal as the enemy.
You can say that again!

And this is what some Americans cannot and will not tolerate. And why, if this attitiude spills out of the cities, that there will be a literal Civil War — unfortunately a bloodbath — in this country.
I hope you're wrong! I also don't agree that the spilling is only going one way in this discussion. lol.

I've never felt privileged, maybe because my parents made it clear that we kids had to make our own way, and while they would help us somewhat, the ultimate results were of our own doing.

My Dad was an executive VP at GM in the 1960s, and as a result, did quite well. Pretty much the textbook nuclear family of the 50s-60s. Mom stays home to raise kids, Dad come home every evening to an adult beverage and dinner, etc., etc. There is no doubt my Dad could have paid the way for all of us kids had he chosen to, but he didn't. He did cover our education, if we were so inclined, but after that you were on your own.

We all got a car when we were driving age, but it wasn't anything fancy - my sister's first car was a Renault Dauphine, my brother's a VW Beetle, and mine, a Ford Maverick. All nice cars for the time, but before we got behind the wheel we had read, understood and signed an agreement we help craft that laid out how we were paying for the half of the car's cost we were responsible for. Everybody worked in high school and paid their own expenses. Some of us, like my brother and I, started working at age 14 in agriculture, often before school in the morning and after school and the weekends. There was absolutely nothing that required we do this - it was expected - you want money to spend? Earn it.

Were we privileged? By most standards, I guess we were, but I never felt like it. I had to bust my ass to earn a buck at the time, and that was expected. Had I been in a real pinch for some reason I'm sure my folks would have stepped up and helped out, but that never occurred. I've held the same standards for my own kids for the most part. I don't think they're unreasonable.

That and people tend to appreciate the things they have far more when they were the ones who earned them.

Heh. Well said. When I was a kid/teenager I thought my Dad was a real d*ck. By the time I was in my late 20s I was thanking him. We never wanted for anything, believe me, but I didn't get the latest and greatest clothing or other accoutrements. And schooling was paramount. When you were in college you were not allowed to work, because you were expected to be focusing on your studies. That was your "job". I chose not to go to college because I wasn't mature enough to handle it, like lots of high school aged kids. The difference was, I knew it. I worked for a couple of years and then went to trade school to become a mechanic. The Bank of Dad wrote those checks, as it did for my siblings who went to college.
Dan, thanks for sharing. I agree with @maw1124 that you had it good! LOL. All kidding aside, I think yours is a good example of how all our experiences and feelings growing up are very relative to our age and experience level. I know I certainly had similar thoughts vectored toward my parents when I was a kid, but now, looking back, I realize how wonderful they were toward me with the resources that they did have at their disposal. I didn't have a car until I saved up enough money to buy my Black 1988 Acura Integra LS towards the end of high school. Until then, I was 'stuck' waking up early to drive my Dad down to the BART station in the mornings so I could drive our 1988 Dodge Grand Caravan LE (blue metallic complete with tape 'wood' paneling and the MASSIVE 3.0L Mitsubishi sourced V6 - tg it wasn't the 4 banger) to school every day. Then the same routine at night to pick him up. Did it suck at the time? Yeaaaaaa. Did i HATE my buddy, whose parents had just laid down some serious coin on a 1997 E320 (M104 ftw!), and let him drive it all the time? Hell yes! But seriously tho.. as you state, those types of inconsequential experiences build character, and if your lucky, at some point later you realize how good you actually had it. ;)

Later on in life, I remember shooting the shit with a buddy of mine ... we were taking a break from doing manual labor (demolishing a bathroom). My buddy is Black. We were comparing our life experiences, and he pointed out to me that he never EVER EVER refuses a receipt. Meaning --- if he buys something from the store and the cashier asks if he wants the receipt, he ALWAYS says "Yes," because he is afraid of walking out the door and being accused of stealing whatever item he just bought. I remember being floored at that because up until then, I had never even thought about that....... I am free to decline receipts at will. That was a real eye-opener for me!

So anyways, I have been given a lot in life and I am very grateful to have that privilege. At the same time, I think another way to define privilege is not "What has been given to me" but "What am I free to not think about that others have to worry about all the time?"

Anyways my point is not to try and guilt-trip people because I despise forced-wealth-distribution through social-engineering-guilt-tax, but to relay that my view of privilege has now been redefined as "freedom from worry."

Cheers.
Such a good experience. Thanks for sharing. It's also a good example of the fact that these learning moments don't have to be confrontational or painful. Sometimes the most enlightening part of your day can also be the most comfortable/fun.
 
So many good replies and discussion here, its hard to know where to start.

Dan, thanks for sharing. I agree with @maw1124 that you had it good! LOL. All kidding aside, I think yours is a good example of how all our experiences and feelings growing up are very relative to our age and experience level. I know I certainly had similar thoughts vectored toward my parents when I was a kid, but now, looking back, I realize how wonderful they were toward me with the resources that they did have at their disposal. I didn't have a car until I saved up enough money to buy my Black 1988 Acura Integra LS towards the end of high school. Until then, I was 'stuck' waking up early to drive my Dad down to the BART station in the mornings so I could drive our 1988 Dodge Grand Caravan LE (blue metallic complete with tape 'wood' paneling and the MASSIVE 3.0L Mitsubishi sourced V6 - tg it wasn't the 4 banger) to school every day. Then the same routine at night to pick him up. Did it suck at the time? Yeaaaaaa. Did i HATE my buddy, whose parents had just laid down some serious coin on a 1997 E320 (M104 ftw!), and let him drive it all the time? Hell yes! But seriously tho.. as you state, those types of inconsequential experiences build character, and if your lucky, at some point later you realize how good you actually had it. ;)


Such a good experience. Thanks for sharing. It's also a good example of the fact that these learning moments don't have to be confrontational or painful. Sometimes the most enlightening part of your day can also be the most comfortable/fun.

I attended a suburban high school in Indianapolis, IN, where the average household income was probably near the top of the socio-economic scale. I had plenty of classmates whose parents bought them new cars for graduation (in advance, of course) and that wore all the latest fashions. I didn't run with any of those cliques as I simply couldn't relate to them. My best friend was the son of a corporate attorney who probably made into six figures, which was pretty astronomical at the time. He lived in a pretty middle class neighborhood like ours and didn't have any more benefits than I (he didn't even have his own car!) I suspect our parents were of much the same mindset, as he worked and paid his way for the most part as well. There seemed to be a contingent of kids like us who all stuck together.

I think the most important point of this is that our parents modeled appropriate behavior, which while it might not have been popular for us at the time, made it easy to understand. We knew people who had palatial homes and lived ostentatiously, but they were outliers and not folks we felt comfortable interacting with.

Dan
 
I'm not a gun owner and have never been. But I'd like to share this Quora answer that I have bookmarked awhile ago. Great question and a matching great answer

Original link: Patrick McElroy's answer to In reality could US gun owners put a militia together that could ever topple their federal government and if not then what's the point on the 2nd amendment? - Quora


Patrick McElroy
Former Army Officer
Question: In reality could US gun owners put a militia together that could ever topple their federal government and if not then what's the point on the 2nd amendment?
Answer: I graduated from West Point, Ranger School, Airborne School, Air Assault School, and the Counter Insurgency Academy (among many other schools). I also did three tours in Iraq as an Armor Officer. I led soldiers from the platoon level to the company level. The entire time, I fought an insurgency that was drastically outnumbered, outgunned, and out-everything else you could imagine. Our forces were the most technically advanced, best equipped, best trained fighting force the WORLD HAS EVER SEEN.
But we never defeated the insurgency. The Iraqis we fought were poor, ill trained, ill equipped, mostly uneducated, yet we couldn't defeat them. They basically had old rifles and pistols, AK47s, homemade explosives, and old military munitions like 155mm artillery rounds and mortars or whatever they looted from the Iraqi Army when it was disbanded.
Now imagine an insurgency of Americans. Highly educated (by comparison), with many times the financial resources, many times the physical assets(vehicles, tools, etc) armed with similar rifles to what the military uses. All the jet fighters, nukes, tanks, battleships in the world are nothing against a determined insurgency.
Also there are thousands of veterans who fought against the Iraqi insurgency who know all the tricks. I was on tanks myself and I know how to take them out. I know how to make homemade explosives. I know how the military taps phones. I know how they set up networks of informants. I know how they plant fake munitions that kill the user. I know the tricks. Thousands of people like me know the tricks. You don't even need that many people to conduct an insurgency. The big advantage is time is on your side in an insurgency. You can watch twenty patrols drive past you and do nothing. You decide when you are going to strike and you can't be drawn into a fight for which you are at a disadvantage. You just wait for opportunities. You go about your normal routines and quietly watch and note the patterns of the military you are fighting. Eventually you will see a weakness like hey the patrols always go over this one bridge at 5pm, so why don't we rig the bridge to collapse when they are driving over it? Or hey the Colonel's vehicle is always the third vehicle in the convoy and has these distinctive markings so let's have the road side bomb destroy the third vehicle and cause as much chaos as possible. Or the expensive helicopters always fly through this valley after dropping off supplies so let's mass our fires on them and try to take one down.
We never defeated the Iraqi insurgency completely. I was in the last brigade in Iraq. We drove out to Kuwait (because the air strips had already been shut down). We were shot at on our way out.
The answer to your question is yes a militia of gun owners could win against the US government. It's been done before.
 
Insurgency is different than civil war, though. In Iraq, the US are the infidels.

Think of it more like Bolsheviks vs. Tsariat forces.
 
Yes, most of his career. He retired from the company in 1968. Petroleum engineer and in large part responsible for creating RPM DELO.

DELO = Diesel Engine Lubricating Oil.
Honch, did your grandfather work for Chevron/Standard Oil?
Mainly focused on diesel engine lubrication, with some R&D on diesel engine cold weather starting and operations.
 
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Aren't oil discussions the mother of all threads?? Anyone using 10W60? :stickpoke:
But they are not verboten... I guess until now. 🤷🏾

So much for the “plain English” writing convention. File under “words you didn’t think you’d hear outside of Catholic school.”

maw
 
Yes, most of his career. He retired from the company in 1968. Petroleum engineer and in large part responsible for creating RPM DELO. DELO =

Yes, most of his career as a petroleum engineer. Mainly focused on diesel engine lubrication, with some R&D on diesel engine cold weather starting and operations.
Small world! My grandfather on the aforementioned 'nuvo-riche' side of the family was also a Petroleum engineer for Standard Oil/Amoco until his retirement in 1980. He ended up getting pretty far after transitioning to management, and ended up serving on their board for a bit in the late 60s early 70s.
 
Interestingly, the US military did some stress-testing on the Arisaka rifles after the war, along with other common bolt-action rifles such as the US M1903 Springfield and the German Kar98K Mauser. They found that the Japanese Arisaka was by far the STRONGEST and most robust bolt-action rifle ever made, in terms of being able to handle very "hot" (over-loaded with gunpowder) bullets. A testament to early 20th Century Japanese engineering.


Some of my earliest memories are of growing up in small-town Philadephia, Mississippi, where we moved when I was a year old (I was born in Tacoma, and my father was transferred from Weyerhaeuser's Tacoma HQ to run a sawmill in rural Mississippi). If you ever saw the movie "Mississippi Burning," it took place literally in the small town where we lived. One of the Neshoba County sheriff's deputys who was guilty of Federal crimes lived just a few houses down the street from us. He was in Federal Penitentiary while we lived there, but my folks knew his wife, and my older sister played with his son. We lived there until I was six years old, in 1973, when we moved BACK to Federal Way, WA, where I grew up and into the home where my mother still lives.

This was just a few years after the South was de-segregated. We were Yankees living in the Deep South, and as such deeply suspect. We were not particularly welcome among the natives, though we were white, of course. I remember as a very young boy that when my mother and I would walk down the street, that people of color would cross the street and walk on the other side (or in the middle of the street). I remember asking my mom why that was. There were Klansmen who worked in my father's sawmill. The bodies of the civil rights workers who were killed in Mississippi Burning were found in an earthen dam, on Weyerhaeuser property (before we moved there, of course).

It is a fact of life, that life does not treat everyone equally. I am not as rich as Bill Gates or my boss Larry Ellison. Or even a fraction as rich as our resident high-tech tycoon @Jlaa or our investment genius @maw1124. Not all of us have 170 level IQs. I accept that. I also did not work as hard as I could have, to get into a prestigious taxpayer-funded University such as the US Naval Academy, located just 1.5 miles from where I sit. I am OK with that. My grandfather grew up on a farm in rural Fruitland, Idaho (not too far from the @gsxr global headquarters), quite poor, but yet my grandfather qualified for and attended the USNA, MIT, and University of Washington (where he met my grandmother).

That said, I am also not ashamed of, and will NEVER be cowed by, people who say that I am the beneficiary of "white privilege" and do not deserve what I have rightfully earned in my life. Nor that I should be mandated to give some of what I have, or what my parents and ancestors rightfully earned, to others less fortunate than I as "reparations." Nope. If some people want to do this, fine. Do we see Warren Buffet, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Elon Musk, Steve Ballmer, Barack Obama, and others giving their earned fortunes away as "reparations" to minority communities? Perhaps they give to some charities, perhaps to some organization who create cures for nasty diseases, perhaps to fight the global pandemic, but they do not give their fortunes away as reparations because they feel guilty to be well-off.

As I said, I will give away what I want to, to organizations I want to, to causes I care about and/or that are impactful. But I will NEVER NEVER NEVER part with money as a mandated "reparation" or as a "guilt payment" to something that I had nothing to do with. Do folks like Gates and Bezos and Obama (remember that Obama is the son of a privileged Kenyan father and American mother from a relatively wealthy white family, not a descendent of African-American slaves) pay reparations to descendents of Southern slaves? As a present-day German, should you feel direct guilt for something that happened generations before you? As a present-day American, should you feel direct guilt for something that happened many generations before you?

Only you can answer this question, in a very personal sense. But for me, I will not feel guilt about something that I had nothing to do with, that is for sure.

Does the fact that person A has a 170 level IQ, and is able to make a good living with it, make him "liable" to pay reparations to someone with a 100-level IQ? The 170 and 100 IQ people didn't have control over their IQ -- they were born with it. But where does it say that someone who is naturally advantaged should "owe" something to those who aren't.

What about someone who has MS, or Alzheimer's. Should people who don't get these diseases "owe" something to people who do? Or what about drug addicts, or alcoholics. Does someone who has an alcoholic gene, get "owed" something from those who don't? It's a damned, slippery, slope.



We all struggle to understand the perspectives of those who have opposing viewpoints to ours. That is human nature.

The key, is to LISTEN, to ACKNOWLEDGE, and to try to find common ground. As opposed to a blanket "shut you down" attitude of invalidity and dismissal as the enemy.

And that is the problem. It used to be that people could find common ground. But the media and social media echo-chambering have caused people to self-insulate into their own bubbles, and reinforce the concept that if you want to try to find common ground, you are basically equivalent to the opposing side....you are just as bad as the other side. And in some circles, they will reinforce this with physical violence, looting, rioting, property destruction. Driven in large part by fomented jealousy and envy.

And this is what some Americans cannot and will not tolerate. And why, if this attitiude spills out of the cities, that there will be a literal Civil War — unfortunately a bloodbath — in this country.
@gerryvz, I agree with you 100%. I grew up in New Orleans in basically the getto. My dad lost his job as a brakeman on the Rutland Railroad in Vermont when it went bankrupt. We moved to NO when I was 8. I managed to get thru HS and joined the Marines in 1960 and went to California I never lived in NO again.

After getting out of the service I busted my ass and my body to get what I have today. I’m not rich but do own my home and am comfortable for what’s left of my life.

And just like Gerry, I’ll be dammed if I give up a penny for anything that I don’t want to. I don’t owe anybody and don’t have any guilty feelings about it.

A lot of people today think we owe them a living and they don’t have to work for it. As far as I’m concerned earn your own way.
 
As a now Canadian and ex South African I have a slightly different view on gun ownership. I hunted in SA for biltong (like jerky but waaaay better) so I totally get that aspect of gun ownership as well as the need for a weapon such as a shot gun to protect the homestead and a side arm for that same purpose. But to roam the streets with an AR-15 strapped to your chest just because you can is just "the r word"(so no one gets triggered)...

In Canada most self defense style weapons are Restricted so it's way more controlled and harder to get a pistol and such. I think that's perhaps a bit extreme but if it keeps yahoos with assault rifles out of my Tim Hortons then I'm all for it.
 
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Small world! My grandfather on the aforementioned 'nuvo-riche' side of the family was also a Petroleum engineer for Standard Oil/Amoco until his retirement in 1980. He ended up getting pretty far after transitioning to management, and ended up serving on their board for a bit in the late 60s early 70s.
Apparently your fam has lost some of the sheen. It is “nouveau” not “nuvo.“ Or perhaps you are throwing us off by intentionally misspelling the word ....... trying to hide some of those billions...... Mr Jeff Be... I mean, a777 fan.


’jes kiddin’ man..... 🤠
 
But they are not verboten... I guess until now. 🤷🏾

So much for the “plain English” writing convention. File under “words you didn’t think you’d hear outside of Catholic school.”

maw
Sitstandkneelpraysing. Sitstandkneelpraysing. Sitstandkneelpraysing. 👍
 
I see this issue about our social construct as being misunderstood and exploited by both opposing views and there is merit on both sides, as is usually the case in life. Many citizens now do expect something for nothing due to the various reasons discussed. Media, lack of values/morals being taught and displayed, children growing up in a time when they experience signs of abundant wealth around them without a clear understanding of what it takes to achieve this. Bad choices. Parental failures.
On the other side, we now have a social construct (good word, thanks to whoever first used it above) that rewards people for some wrong things in an unbalanced way. The people who do the grunt work of removing our garbage, policing our streets, caring for our elderly, don't make enough money to survive. I will not bore anyone with many personal examples I know of. Double incomes are now a requirement for most to get by. This leads to a breakdown in raising children which I mentioned above. There are not enough living wage jobs and not enough good paying jobs for students to justify the ridiculous tuitions paid for higher education. This is a class issue, not a racial issue, but the media is using it to divide us. The hard working middle class, the vast majority of us that keep the lights on, owe nothing to anyone. We have been losing ground for decades. It's not as simple as the media has us believing.

drew
 
@gerryvz, I agree with you 100%. I grew up in New Orleans in basically the getto. My dad lost his job as a brakeman on the Rutland Railroad in Vermont when it went bankrupt. We moved to NO when I was 8. I managed to get thru HS and joined the Marines in 1960 and went to California I never lived in NO again.

After getting out of the service I busted my ass and my body to get what I have today. I’m not rich but do own my home and am comfortable for what’s left of my life.

And just like Gerry, I’ll be dammed if I give up a penny for anything that I don’t want to. I don’t owe anybody and don’t have any guilty feelings about it.

A lot of people today think we owe them a living and they don’t have to work for it. As far as I’m concerned earn your own way.

Hi Terry,
Kudos to you (no joke). Great story! You are right, you owe no one ANYTHING....in fact we OWE YOU a debt of gratitude, at minimum, for be willing to go into the service and defend the US if necessary.

Separately, 100% on the "A lot of people today think we owe them a living and they don’t have to work for it. As far as I’m concerned earn your own way."
Not going to get into who/how/at what cost here, I've done stuff to try to help others, but I established a new rule for myself and others who want/need help i.e. "If you are able bodied, unless you have done at minimum 70% of what I was willing to, and sacrifices I had to make, for years on end, not days, not weeks, years (and no you don't even have to try 80% as hard...but 70%), please don't put your hand out and ask for anything. If you are willing to do 70% (for extended duration) and you still fail or have health issue or had very bad luck, I'll be first guy in line to help....no joke I would....otherwise - back to the hard work"

Your story is a really good one!

With Respect,
MSQ
 
Apparently your fam has lost some of the sheen. It is “nouveau” not “nuvo.“ Or perhaps you are throwing us off by intentionally misspelling the word ....... trying to hide some of those billions...... Mr Jeff Be... I mean, a777 fan.


’jes kiddin’ man..... 🤠
:whistling2:
 
The people who do the grunt work of removing our garbage, policing our streets, caring for our elderly, don't make enough money to survive. I will not bore anyone with many personal examples I know of. Double incomes are now a requirement for most to get by. This leads to a breakdown in raising children which I mentioned above. There are not enough living wage jobs and not enough good paying jobs for students to justify the ridiculous tuitions paid for higher education. This is a class issue, not a racial issue, but the media is using it to divide us. The hard working middle class, the vast majority of us that keep the lights on, owe nothing to anyone. We have been losing ground for decades. It's not as simple as the media has us believing.

drew

For the sake of understanding and not political argument (since someone mentioned Reagan), I'll point out that this whole concept of "trickle down economics" is what produces the very situation Drew so aptly describes above.

More money at the top end of the economy does not "trickle down" to produce or increase wealth at all levels. Rather, it stays at the top, starving the levels beneath. A rudimentary understanding of human nature makes this a Captain Obvious point. Yet the individualist nature of our society ("I gotta get mine... hell with everyone else") leads us to continually vote in favor of different versions of this same "trickle down" economic theory, producing different yet predictable versions of these same results.

We don't want a more equitable system; we just want to be the fat cat at the top. OK

So legislators who make six figures and above from your tax dollars for doing virtually nothing vote against minimum wage increases that would help you support your household. 🤔

maw
 
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This is a class issue, not a racial issue, but the media is using it to divide us.

Unfortunately, poverty disproportionately affects POC so you can't really separate the two.

I think this is a class issue, but depending on where you sit, it might be easy to call it a race issue. Here is why:

If you live in an urban environment, it is likely that there are lots of brown/black people there. Lots of times, such people are at the lower end of the socieconomic ladder, working jobs in construction, manual labor, etc. So living in this environment, it is easy to think that this is a race issue.

If you live in a less urban environment it is likely that there are less brown/black people there. So drywallers, bricklayers, house cleaners, fast food workers ..... are all white! So in this environment, it is easy to say, “what race issue? This is a class issue.”

For five years, I used to live/work two days a week in environment #1 and then take a plane to live work in environment #2 for three days a week and I saw both angles ... and it was very weird to me to constantly switch back and forth every week between both environments.

This is why I think it is a class issue that is disguised as a race issue because the races are not evenly distributed across the USA. This is compounded by the fact that the USA has a narrative where we are supposedly a “classless” society and that “anyone can make it” .... which is false. But we made this narrative and we drink our own koolaid (ostensibly as a reaction to our roots as a product of English culture which is extremely class-based.)

Should we forcibly strive to mix races? My gut is no, because social engineering always backfires.

I have no good answers. :) However since I am neither white, brown, nor black, I am impartial!!! I just want things to work!!! Ronny Chieng all the way! 😂🤣

 
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People that use qualifiers in front of their names to garner respect or status deserve neither in my opinion. Respect is earned or given from others and actions, not from papers or institutions. Double names mostly belong in the same category excepting legal reasons, if there are any.

drew
 
I think this is a class issue, but depending on where you sit, it might be easy to call it a race issue. Here is why:

If you live in an urban environment, it is likely that there are lots of brown/black people there. Lots of times, such people are at the lower end of the socieconomic ladder, working jobs in construction, manual labor, etc. So living in this environment, it is easy to think that this is a race issue.

If you live in a less urban environment it is likely that there are less brown/black people there. So drywallers, bricklayers, house cleaners, fast food workers ..... are all white! So in this environment, it is easy to say, “what race issue? This is a class issue.”

For five years, I used to live/work two days a week in environment #1 and then take a plane to live work in environment #2 for three days a week and I saw both angles ... and it was very weird to me to constantly switch back and forth every week between both environments.

This is why I think it is a class issue that is disguised as a race issue because the races are not evenly distributed across the USA. This is compounded by the fact that the USA has a narrative where we are supposedly a “classless” society and that “anyone can make it” .... which is false. But we made this narrative and we drink our own koolaid (ostensibly as a reaction to our roots as a product of English culture which is extremely class-based.)

Should we forcibly strive to mix races? My gut is no, because social engineering always backfires.

I have no good answers. :) However since I am neither white, brown, nor black, I am impartial!!! I just want things to work!!! Ronny Chieng all the way! 😂🤣

Growing up outside of Detroit, albeit the burbs, and then moving to the south, into a somewhat rural area, I experienced something like you did. At a different point in time.

drew
 
Are you referencing Fang Fang (Christine Fang) with that statement?
I don’t think so. This individual’s name is 方芳, which, when Romanized, is phoeneticized as “Fang Fang”.... but they are two different words.

Actually this is something else that is really interesting ... TRADITIONAL old-skool Chinese culture (before being all messed up by the communist party) gives people THREE characters for names.

However more recently, the youths now only get TWO characters for names. This is how one distinguishes old skool vs millenials. 🤣
 
Are you referencing Fang Fang (Christine Fang) with that statement?
I had not heard of her until now. Interesting Wikipedia is considering deleting it though. I was thinking of the newly appointed female SC judge. Can't think of her triple name presently. Amy Coney Barret. Christine Blasely Ford also comes to mind.

drew
 
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I had not heard of her until now. Interesting Wikipedia is considering deleting it though. I was thinking of the newly appointed female SC judge. Can't think of her triple name presently.

drew
It's a potential national security issue. Sort of like Sen. Dianne Feinstein of Cal. having a Chinese spy on her staff in the recent past. The reason Wikipedia is considering deleting it is because it's a politicized issue, and media, social media and large Tech companies have been censoring and/or ignoring and/or issuing warnings about some points of view and topics. So it's not a surprise if folks don't know about this.
 
It's a potential national security issue. Sort of like Sen. Dianne Feinstein of Cal. having a Chinese spy on her staff in the recent past. The reason Wikipedia is considering deleting it is because it's a politicized issue, and media, social media and large Tech companies have been censoring and/or ignoring and/or issuing warnings about some points of view and topics. So it's not a surprise if folks don't know about this.
Very much aware of the censorings. I wish more people were as it's of utmost importance.

drew
 
I think this is a class issue, but depending on where you sit, it might be easy to call it a race issue. Here is why:

If you live in an urban environment, it is likely that there are lots of brown/black people there. Lots of times, such people are at the lower end of the socieconomic ladder, working jobs in construction, manual labor, etc. So living in this environment, it is easy to think that this is a race issue.

If you live in a less urban environment it is likely that there are less brown/black people there. So drywallers, bricklayers, house cleaners, fast food workers ..... are all white! So in this environment, it is easy to say, “what race issue? This is a class issue.”

For five years, I used to live/work two days a week in environment #1 and then take a plane to live work in environment #2 for three days a week and I saw both angles ... and it was very weird to me to constantly switch back and forth every week between both environments.

This is why I think it is a class issue that is disguised as a race issue because the races are not evenly distributed across the USA. This is compounded by the fact that the USA has a narrative where we are supposedly a “classless” society and that “anyone can make it” .... which is false. But we made this narrative and we drink our own koolaid (ostensibly as a reaction to our roots as a product of English culture which is extremely class-based.)

Should we forcibly strive to mix races? My gut is no, because social engineering always backfires.

I have no good answers. :) However since I am neither white, brown, nor black, I am impartial!!! I just want things to work!!! Ronny Chieng all the way! 😂🤣

I'm on my work compy so I can't see the youtoubes! I'll have to check back in from a personal device to see the video... I assume it has something to do with Ronny Chieng? (Whose name I admit I don't recognize...lol!)

My comment about race and class not being separable topics of discussion is borne out in this 2018 Congressional Research Service report on Poverty, and those in the US living below the poverty line. You'll see that minority groups including POC, Women, Children and the Elderly are all over represented in the poverty statistics relative to their overall portions of the population. African Americans, for example, comprised 12.9% of the overall population in 2018, but represented 21.9% of those living under the poverty line.

The Congressional Research Service is a non-partisan arm of the Library of Congress. Wikipedia page here.

I also didn't mean to give the impression that I was advocating for a forcible 'mixing' of the races, or any of the other discussion points/solutions we have been discussing. I don't think forcing anything (concepts or ideas) having to do with these topics are going to solve or help things.

I too want to emphasize that I also have no solutions or good answers to these vexing issues or discussion points, only opinions from my POV. LOL.
 
It's a potential national security issue. Sort of like Sen. Dianne Feinstein of Cal. having a Chinese spy on her staff in the recent past.

It is always fascinating to me how folks have a tough time discriminating among 1) US born Asian Americans 2) The Chinese diaspora from places like Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, and 3) Chinese from the actual PRC.

For any Asian with an iota of Western exposure, determining this of whoever you are engaging with is like THE DEFINING litmus test of how its gonna go.

The rule is that #1 and #2 category are very different from #3 category! Dumbass politicians and businessmen thinking with their little head always always always get it wrong.
 
This is why I think it is a class issue that is disguised as a race issue because the races are not evenly distributed across the USA. This is compounded by the fact that the USA has a narrative where we are supposedly a “classless” society and that “anyone can make it” .... which is false. But we made this narrative and we drink our own koolaid (ostensibly as a reaction to our roots as a product of English culture which is extremely class-based.)

@Jlaa Agreed it is a "class issue" disguised as a race issue....however here is my experience: I grew up in scenario #1 that you described (and later - in H.S. family scraped enough $$ together enough and moved to a suburb due to schools, drug problems in our neighborhood etc.).

Close friend doing heroin in 7th grade (yes 7th) girls having sex in 6th grade etc. These examples are "white" people ones. The black kids in our school lived in the same kind of houses we did - 3 deckers, the parents (white & black) had factory jobs (before the politicians sold out to China, when these jobs actually existed).
If you normalize for "race" i.e. take race out of the analysis - the white kids in this environment and the black kids had equally poor outcomes as adults (and I believe objective studies prove the same - not some study by some left wing academic with lots of confirmation bias).

The common themes for the kids who "made it out" and/or "made it" in life (which was a small % of all these kids) vs. those who did not (most of the kids) were these:

1. Parents had a keen focus on kids education and never accepted excuses
2. Two parent, in tact, nuclear family
3. Parents who were actually willing to "sacrifice" for their kids (i.e. two jobs, night shifts, one or no cars etc.)
4. Discipline (in all aspects, personal discipline; discipline of the parents to "do the right thing")
5. Parents who set high expectation levels for kids (vs. we accept that we become like everyone else around us)
6. Kids who were actually willing to work hard (do the school work; get part time jobs as soon as practical)
7. Families and kids who delayed gratification for future benefit

I don't think anyone (with any credibility) ever said U.S. is a "classless" society, I think the point is, regardless of your class, if you are willing to educate yourself and work hard and delay current gratification for future - the U.S. provides the opportunity to succeed. It doesn't guarantee anything BUT if you work hard enough you can pick yourself up and make something of yourself - sure its harder for some. The #'s in my neighborhood prove it - but unlike many other countries - we do provide "opportunity" and its not equal (btw: as I have gotten older - I realized the "opportunity" that my brothers and I had growing up like this was FAR more beneficial to us, than some of the spoiled suburban rich kids we later went to school with). It was like two different worlds - the city 3 decker vs. the suburbs - so disconnected and unlike in too many ways to count.
In our world back then "rich kid" meant a family that actually had its own house and lived in the suburbs, even if that meant the Dad was a manager at McDonalds.

Sure some of the "rich kids" from the suburbs had tutors and went to better schools, summer camps etc. had an easier run - but looking back, I would not trade that for the "grit" "endurance" "shut up and learn and don't open your mouth until you have accomplished something (education, job, etc.) and then when you are done - still don't" type of the neighborhood I grew up in.

There were some kids from that city/urban environment that became CEO's (super small #) and far more that ended up in jail or on drugs.

The children of parents who did not want to do most/all of 1 - 7 above had equally cruel outcomes regardless of race.
 
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I don't think anyone (with any credibility) ever said U.S. is a "classless" society, I think the point is, regardless of your class, if you are willing to educate yourself and work hard and delay current gratification for future - the U.S. provides the opportunity to do that. It doesn't guarantee anything BUT if you search hard enough you can pick yourself up and make something of yourself - sure its harder for some. The #'s in my neighborhood prove it - but unlike many other countries - we do provide "opportunity" and its not equal (btw: as I have gotten older - I realized the "opportunity" that my brothers and I had going up like this was FAR more beneficial to us, than some of the spoiled suburban rich kids we later went to school with). It was like two different worlds - the city 3 decker vs. the suburbs - so disconnected and unlike in too many ways to count.
In our work back then "rich kid" mean a family that had its own house and lived in the suburbs, even if that mean the Dad was a manager at McDonalds.
Agree 100%. My father, lower middle class, grew up in rust-belt inner city Erie, PA. Paid his own way through school (along with ROTC to help). First of his entire extended family to go to university. My dad had a good work ethic, and after he got out of the Army in 1962 (held over 6 months by the Cuban Missile Crisis) worked his entire career, 36 years, for Weyerhaeuser Co.

My mom's father, grew up on a farm in rural Idaho. One of seven children (youngest child). Only he and his older brother went to university, his brother to the University of Washington. My grandfather got a Congressional appointment from Idaho Senator William E. Borah to the US Naval Academy. Served in World War 2 as a US Navy research engineer.

My wife Laura, grew up in inner city north Baltimore (Roland Park), the youngest of three. Her father was a Baltimore policeman. Put herself through engineering school at the University of Maryland by working and scholarships, turning down acceptances at Georgia Tech, US Naval Academy, and Florida Tech. Only one of her siblings to go to university.

It was and it is absolutely possible to educate yourself (and not rely on loans to do it), and work your way up in life. I was more privileged, but only because my parents lived frugally, planned ahead, and sacrificed for my sister and I. My mom has lived in the same 1,600 square foot ranch house since 1973.
 
Honch, did your grandfather work for Chevron/Standard Oil?

Small world! My grandfather on the aforementioned 'nuvo-riche' side of the family was also a Petroleum engineer for Standard Oil/Amoco until his retirement in 1980. He ended up getting pretty far after transitioning to management, and ended up serving on their board for a bit in the late 60s early 70s.

Here are few of his research papers and published articles he wrote regarding mainly diesel engine lubrication.

The photograph is of my grandfather, on the right, with his colleague and co-inventor of a cold-starting system for engines in Arctic conditions that he invented. Basically it was a system that fired a measured "dose" of Ether into the intake manifold to enable the engine to fire easier in extremely cold temperatures. He did a lot of testing of this system in Alaska. It was mainly designed for heavy equipment, such as bulldozers and locomotives.

Given that much of this relates to Diesel engines, the @gsxr ought to have quite a "woody" over it......
 

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Nobody on this forum who has a PhD had better put "Dr." in front of their name, unless they are a medical doctor/dentist/veterinarian, kiddo. Like @DrP.
Is the AP stylebook in use here?

When I was at the university and my supervising professor was goading me in an attempt to get me to go for a Ph.D., all I could say was that if I got one I was going to demand that my kids always address me as "Doctor".

iu.jpeg
 
It is always fascinating to me how folks have a tough time discriminating among 1) US born Asian Americans 2) The Chinese diaspora from places like Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, and 3) Chinese from the actual PRC.

For any Asian with an iota of Western exposure, determining this of whoever you are engaging with is like THE DEFINING litmus test of how its gonna go.

The rule is that #1 and #2 category are very different from #3 category! Dumbass politicians and businessmen thinking with their little head always always always get it wrong.

How true.

I regularly conducted business throughout Asia for eight years. Learning the different countries, cultures and even ethnic groups was always fascinating to me. China (HK and mainland), Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Indonesia (Jakarta, Palu), Malaysia (KL, Singapore) and even places as unique as Laos were regular stops, and I loved them all. I made it a point to engage with the locals to learn as much as I could about their culture while I was there, and luckily, I was usually accompanied by a local, which made it even better.

We traveled to the Caribbean and South America when I was a kid, and I think it's important that if possible, people are exposed to different cultures and ways of life - it makes them really, really appreciate how good we have it here. It also gives them a far better understanding that their way of life isn't the same as most of the rest of the world's, too.

As for discrimination, I have a good friend who is from mainland China. He came over as a college student and was able to stay, I don't know the details. Anyway, he's a very sharp guy and a great worker. Because his accent is quite thick, it can be difficult to understand him. However, as I learned from listening to people with heavy accents when I traveled, I just sort of slow things down in my mind and process what he says and I can understand him without issue.

Because his former manager had a hard time understanding him, rather than make an effort to do so, they pigeonholed him into a really crappy job. He left a few months later (mission accomplished, jerk manager!) and went to another part of local government where the people willingly accepted him and had no problem working with him. He's now in a very good position and doing far better than he ever would in our side of the house.
 

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