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(used) Big Sedans

dionphaneuf

E500E Guru
Member
A friend from back home is considering swapping his 996 out for a new cushy cruiser and is considering two big German cars.
  • 2001 740 iL, manual swapped. Accident in 2015, some current electrical issues (owner is replacing the airbag module), but owned by an older gentleman from new before being bought by the shop manager of the independent garage that serviced it for most of its life. ~90k mi, VANOS and chain guides not done yet. Car presents well.
  • 2006 CL600, 60k mi. Owned since 2008 by a local pilot that seems attentitive if not super technically literate. ABC works, no major issues known/visible. Minor accident in 2010.
He's driven the CL and as S55 w the M113k and loved the V12 and general feel of the CL. Any thoughts on which to go for? Owner would be taking car to a shop for everything; has another car as a DD so this would be an opportunistic cruiser for trips around Toronto and periodically to/from Virginia for work (3-5x per year). Are the V12 C215s *that* bad in terms of ownership if you get a well serviced one and just stay on top of it? My sense was as long as he did research on issues vs dumping money into it based on shop advice, $2k in repairs per year was the likely ceiling assuming ABC doesn't crap the bed (which to my knowledge it doesn't as long as it's cared for). I like the looks of E38s and I hear they drive nice but I get the sense it's possible for there to be death by a thousand cuts on the electrical side of things (small sensors, ECUs, etc), to say nothing of the bigger mechanical work needed as mentioned above.

Totally open to other suggestions of big comfy cruisers that might not break the bank. Also looking at E28/39s, but the former are a bit too vintage for his tastes.
 
I very recently looked at a 2001 E38 sport and learned that the Vanos issues are not applicable to this motor. The chain guides are. The E38 driving experience is very nice.
I also have been lusting for an S55 or S600 so I made a call to Johnathan (jono) and was educated on upkeep of both. Engine out job for motor mounts on the 600 and similar expenses to keep the S55 healthy. That said, I'm still watching for an S55 in the right color and condition.
I also like Porsche Panameras but know little about maintenance costs. Your friend may, being a 996 owner.

My .02 cents.

drew
 
I'd stay away from the twin turbo V12 cars. That's been my thinking since I bought my S55 over 12 years ago. TTV12 is just a stretch too far in terms of engineering to be reliable.

From the driving style you've described, I think the S55 is the best that can be had. I drove mine to death the first couple years, figure 20k miles a year, long hauls from MI to FL to DC to NY to MI to NoLA... a great time was had by all. Then I bought the M3 and E5E and spent less time in MI, there the car basically did summer golf course duty until a few years ago (when my daughter decided to attend my alma mater in Ann Arbor). So these days the car takes two years to cover 5k mile oil changes.

I spend about $1k per year, but it’s spread out, like $5k every 5 years — every now and then I’ll dump a few grand into it, mostly preventative and optional (e.g., new steering wheel buttons, light switches) then you can just drive it for the next few years with nothing but oil, coolant and brake fluid changes. In the last 18 months it took new ABC fluid, accumulators and tires to get to that amount — all done “before there’s a problem” which is the key point. You have to stay ahead on these cars... BreakFix is a hill you don’t want to climb.

Running costs have been such that I've never paid much attention. I cannot recall any major repair. Fluid changes are what they are but you can't go by the book because both ABC and transmission fluid were NSI -- No Service Interval, from MB when new, which is complete bollocks. Change them both every 5/50 with spark plugs and you'll be fine. Accumulators are accumulators, do them when you buy the car just to make sure, or at 100k miles. But at 15years, my advice is do them unless you can show they've been done. Maybe the ABC fluid, filter, accumulators, transmission fluid and filter cost you $2500 at a shop, so take that off your purchase price (easy to do, given how terrified people are of these cars). Engine and trans mounts are like E5E... they must be done and they must be OEM otherwise you'll do them again. But other than that, no issue. Pulleys and belts go but not often and they're not expensive. The idler pulley will vocalize its unhappiness so you’re not caught off guard, and I drove with a ruined supercharger pulley for at least 3 months before I knew it was gone. New pulleys are like it never happened. Buy one that has been garage kept -- stay away if not. There are tons of pneumatic workings in these cars so seals everywhere should not have been heat cycled, sun hardened or cold shrunk (e.g., dynamic seats, soft close doors and trunk).

If it wasn't for the buggeyed lights I'd be recommending the CL55. He should also think about the CL550 from '08-14 but the latter ones are in a different price range. Sounds like he wants sub-$15k. The only other cars I would suggest are the Audi S8 and S6 with the Lambo derived V10 engines, from '09-'10. Those can be had for an absolute steal but owners tend not to let them go. The BMW 535xi in the right spec from the same period are also good cars, but then you've got turbochargers to deal with (complexity and maintenance -- more stuff to break). My view is if you're dealing with turbochargers they need to be (1) in a Porsche or (2) with a V12 65 AMG car.

Hope this diatribe helps. Cheers,

maw

PS... I guess I should add the D2 chassis Audi S8 as well... but then you're looking more toward a restoration project... rewarding car but a bit of a headache, especially to get BT or Navi retrofitted. For that general reason I say stay newer than '06 in all of these cars.
 
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I have an S55 and a CL65. The S55 is pretty much daily driven, although relegated to a backup daily drive to my E320 CDI (700 miles between fill ups is hard to give up). It's been pretty reliable. I blew an ABC hose early in its life and had to replace an ABC pipe later because of a minor shunt that caused it to kink. Aside from that, very little has been needed.

I barely drive the CL65 but I expect that I will be facing some bills along the way. What a motor though.
 
Please no V12......
Fool's gold, to be sure... well, at least with twin blowers attached. The M120 might be livable, but after that they all came with that added complication.

maw
 
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Well, I may have jumped into more than I can chew, but, so far, the M120 has been reliable.

Must agree with Maw that the M113 and M112 have been trouble free in the years I have had them.

Had to replace head gasket on M104.

This board has been indispensable at keeping the M119s going.

My M117 has been vacationing in Jono's shop in preparation for the East Coast show in November.

Keep you guys posted on the M120 as the miles accumulate.
 
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I'm going to throw my S55 up for sale again. I just did a deal with my brother on his old 2000 E55 which I bought for him in 2016 while he was living in the states. It's been sitting in my building for the past 5 years gathering dust and I figured that the rats will eat it if I don't do something with it.

I like the W210, in my mind, it's the last simple Mercedes so I'd prefer to semi daily drive it over an S55 and I don't need 500hp. If someone has a W140 CL600 to trade, i'd be game.
 
I'm going to throw my S55 up for sale again. I just did a deal with my brother on his old 2000 E55 ...
I like the W210, in my mind, it's the last simple Mercedes so I'd prefer to semi daily drive it over an S55 and I don't need 500hp.
Yeah... no one "needs" 500hp in an SClass. Seriously. Especially not one that weighs just 4300lbs. @8899 and I discuss this often. The whole concept of a "driver's" SClass is almost an anathema. Only HWA would think there's a market for a supercharged S55 with Sport mode suspension, which is probably why so few were made. Throw in a rear seat package and Chestnut or Designo wood, and now you're looking like Mauricio Gucci. Very few can relate.

On the other hand, the W210 55 is the closest thing to an E5E that you will get, although it's still long way away in my estimation. It's tied with the C43 for that honor in my book, which only shows how far away it truly is. For a semi daily driver, I don't think I could ever trade a S55k for a W210 55. Seriously. I don't think I have the capacity to do it. Call me Mauricio.

The W210 would be on BaT, the proceeds would bring the W220 55k to factory spec, and then I'd sell it 10yrs down the road. But I haven't seen the cars. YMMV.

maw
 
I'm getting tired of the S55. It's developed a new slow and intermittent ABC leak and I've about had enough of it. I've had to dive into the ABC system a few times and I'm now on my second 20 liter jug of CHF-11S.

I have discovered a wonderful way to chase off the midnight bottom feeders. Responding with 'price is firm' when they ask if it's available sends them packing pretty quickly

1646546043173.png
 
I'm going to throw my S55 up for sale again. I just did a deal with my brother on his old 2000 E55 which I bought for him in 2016 while he was living in the states. It's been sitting in my building for the past 5 years gathering dust and I figured that the rats will eat it if I don't do something with it.

I like the W210, in my mind, it's the last simple Mercedes so I'd prefer to semi daily drive it over an S55 and I don't need 500hp. If someone has a W140 CL600 to trade, i'd be game.
We had a 2002 W220 S500 (Airmatic) for 3.5 years. With exception to a bad MAF ($150) and rebuilding the front air struts (with epoxy?) its was a problem free car till it ended with a tragedy.
Its had a really nice drive, dimensions and features. The W220 did not feel like a W140 tank, but was still high quality in a lighter more modern form. .. but that was 14 years ago.

Can you please evaluate your experience with the W220 as you use it now? in terms of faults and issues you encountered.
 
The W220 did not feel like a W140 tank, but was still high quality in a lighter more modern form...
This, to me, is the whole thing that I think people miss about the W220. To me, both the W140 and W221 were too big and bloated to be anything but land barges. But the W220 55 is still just light and balanced enough to be tossed around a bit. You just cant believe what the car is doing, and certainly not with your family soundly asleep in the lap of luxury and safety. It’s just a more sleek, svelte interpretation of Sonderklasse, at least to me.

@alabbasi where are you actually losing the Pentosin? PM if me if you want to get into it. If it’s not on the ground, it’s probably in the struts.

maw
 
This, to me, is the whole thing that I think people miss about the W220. To me, both the W140 and W221 were too big and bloated to be anything but land barges. But the W220 55 is still just light and balanced enough to be tossed around a bit. You just cant believe what the car is doing, and certainly not with your family soundly asleep in the lap of luxury and safety. It’s just a more sleek, svelte interpretation of Sonderklasse, at least to me.

@alabbasi where are you actually losing the Pentosin? PM if me if you want to get into it. If it’s not on the ground, it’s probably in the struts.

maw
I agree, it came as a response to the sporty and sleek E38 7-Series (greatest 7-Series ever?). I do love both the W140 and W221 but both look/drive like a Yacht. The W220 is no less a car but had the bad rep from the first gen Airmatic/ABC. People have an image of a dusty, sagging w220 dumped next to a workshop because the owner gave up trying to fix the suspension... M-B is partly responsible for that.
 
Can you please evaluate your experience with the W220 as you use it now? in terms of faults and issues you encountered.
It's been very reliable. I bought the car with hail damage back in 2017 from auction. It had about 130k miles on it so I guess that I've driven it 40k miles since I bought it. Aside form the hail which I repaired. It needed a radiator and a/c compressor as soon as I got it, and I rebuilt the suspension not long after. More recently, rear brakes, rotors and a brake flush. The rest has been ABC suspension related.
  1. All accumulators and pulsation dampener
  2. The canister that hangs off the PS pump
  3. The 3 hoses on 3 different occasions
  4. Rear right ABC struts
  5. lots of fluid and filters
I have 50 other cars so the time to work on them is somewhat limited and keeping a simpler daily makes more sense to me right now. It's not the only one on the chopping block. I'm not doing many of my cars any favors by just storing them.
 
I agree, it came as a response to the sporty and sleek E38 7-Series (greatest 7-Series ever?). I do love both the W140 and W221 but both look/drive like a Yacht. The W220 is no less a car but had the bad rep from the first gen Airmatic/ABC. People have an image of a dusty, sagging w220 dumped next to a workshop because the owner gave up trying to fix the suspension... M-B is partly responsible for that.
And rust on the early cars + any association with the company formerly known as Chrysler didn’t help. But by ‘05/‘06, all of that was over and over remedied. The company’s reputation was at stake.

EDIT… @alabbasi let me guess, you did the lines and struts before the accumulators and dampers. I’ve yet to see anyone have trouble with lines after accumulators have been done, since the oft overlooked accumulators are there to protect the lines. That said, these cars are a lot easier to keep up than to resurrect after they’ve passed a certain point, I’ve observed over the years anecdotally. Mine has never reached that point so I’ve never had problems.

maw
 
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Any comments on the W220 Airmatic ? We only needed to do the top seal epoxy at 90-92TKM (car was 7 years old then).
Do you continue repairing the top seal or did the the Air billows give up like in the W211/W221? Were they less robust than the W221 struts?
 
IMO, Its a lot more simpler and lighter than the ABC, and the comfort/Performance difference in most cases is not noticeable
Airmatic is lighter and simpler. And as it has evolved between W220 and W222 (15 years), the performance difference has gotten smaller. It’s the reason the W222 63 4Matic cars got Airmatic. I had some interesting conversations with MB AMG in the Private Lounge when they were considering adding 4Matic to the AMG SClass. The tradeoff for 4Matic was Airmatic instead of ABC. The ABC struts were too big to accommodate 4Matic. So the 63 cars got 4Matic and air hydraulics whereas the 65 cars continued with rear drive and fluid hydraulics. At 4300lbs, I’m sure the W220 could have gotten away with today‘s Airmatic. But the system back then was nowhere near as good, so fluid hydraulics was the answer. I hope all that makes sense. I haven’t dived deep into the parts difference that accounts for that evolution.

FWIW my ‘04 Allroad 4.2 has what is basically Airmatic. They use the same pump and virtually the same air bladders as the W220, which is why Arnott does replacements for both cars — same design. It’s also roughly the same size as the W220. There are more interchangeable parts between those two cars than you would imagine, down to the wheels, air suspension, Bose stereo, TPMS, etc. But that car isn’t running 500+ hp/tq through corners. For that, I’m glad the 55 has ABC.

maw

EDIT… I’m pretty sure some of the Bentleys also use fluid hydraulic suspensions. When a car approaches 5,000 lbs with certain power and handling expectations, there seems to be a concern that air can’t reliably handle the forces applied.
 
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I'd stay away from the twin turbo V12 cars. That's been my thinking since I bought my S55 over 12 years ago. TTV12 is just a stretch too far in terms of engineering to be reliable.

From the driving style you've described, I think the S55 is the best that can be had. I drove mine to death the first couple years, figure 20k miles a year, long hauls from MI to FL to DC to NY to MI to NoLA... a great time was had by all. Then I bought the M3 and E5E and spent less time in MI, there the car basically did summer golf course duty until a few years ago (when my daughter decided to attend my alma mater in Ann Arbor). So these days the car takes two years to cover 5k mile oil changes.

I spend about $1k per year, but it’s spread out, like $5k every 5 years — every now and then I’ll dump a few grand into it, mostly preventative and optional (e.g., new steering wheel buttons, light switches) then you can just drive it for the next few years with nothing but oil, coolant and brake fluid changes. In the last 18 months it took new ABC fluid, accumulators and tires to get to that amount — all done “before there’s a problem” which is the key point. You have to stay ahead on these cars... BreakFix is a hill you don’t want to climb.
The m275 is an incredible engine. Smooth as silk and massive effortless torque and power on tap.

The m120 has wiring issues. Throttle bodies and MAFs to go wrong also with the extreme heat of the V12 engine bay. Personally I wouldn't buy an m120 car unless these issues were already addressed or it was for scrap money and I could factor in the time to rebuild myself.

The m137 NA V12s can have pretty major problems also- cylinder bores going out of oval being one of them.

The M275 has ignition maintenance issues. Aka the coil packs are one big expensive pack per bank. If one goes out its about a grand to replace. But otherwise this is a fully forged masterpiece of an engine.

I was fortunate in buying my m275 (V12TT) w220 with all new ABC struts from the dealer, most ABC hoses replaced including the infamous one at the front of the engine and lots of other crucial maintenance. It did come with a known misfire but the price was well below market to allow for this so I took a chance on it at the time about 2 years ago.

People said I was stone mad buying a V12TT with 144k miles on it from the furtherest town in England in faulty condition but I did it anyway. Got a Coil pack from V12ICPACK.com in USA and my S600 has been a phenomenal car. Never missed a beat.

Messaging seats, Fridge, Bose sound system and acceleration that is almost frightening its the best car I've purchased and will probably never be topped in terms of HP and reliability for the £. I paid £2400 at the time 2 year ago. The PO owned it for a year and it was a painful experience for him. £6k of receipts came with the car in his 1 year of ownership! :hehehe:
Being able to DIY the maintenance and purchase aftermarket parts (such as Lemforder engine mounts with the MB logo ground off) helps reduce costs significantly. However I do understand the reluctance to run one of those cars- if you buy a bad one it will bankrupt you almost. But buy a good example and it WILL be the best automotive experience you can buy trust me. Even the starter motor noise on m275 is fantastic 👌

24x spark plugs, 24 x brake pistons & 2x 70mm exhausts what's not to love(?)
 
@JC220 I agree with your comments. I drove and floored a W220 S65 AMG (owner in the passenger seat), It was the smoothest power delivery I have ever seen! 240km/h felt like 140km/h. Starter motor "squeal" is a distinct feature.

But those coil packs and motor mounts are nasty, I would live with that but not in combination with ABC = $$$$$
 
@alabbasi let me guess, you did the lines and struts before the accumulators and dampers.
Wrong guess, the first line to let go was the one to the pulsation dampener and i replaced all the accumulators and dampener as soon as this happened.

Today I removed the wheelarch liners and washed everything down and blew it off with compressed air. Then filled the ABC reservoir to the correct level and performed a rodio. No leaks, bone dry so I took it home.

1646616766419.png

By the time I got home, the wheel arch on the drivers side front was soaked but this time, I could see that it was coming from the top of the reservoir which was soaked. Very odd.
 
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Wrong guess, the first line to let go was the one to the pulsation dampener and i replaced all the accumulators and dampener as soon as this happened.

Today I removed the wheelarch liners and washed everything down and blew it off with compressed air. Then filled the ABC reservoir to the correct level and performed a rodio. No leaks, bone dry so I took it home.

By the time I got home, the wheel arch on the drivers side front was soaked but this time, I could see that it was coming from the top of the reservoir which was soaked. Very odd.
Ok, so lines went and then you did accumulators and dampers but not struts. Fine. My point was to do accumulators before lines go, but we’ll carry on.

Curious, did you replace the return damper in the rear as well? A lot of people (including dealer techs) advise that those don’t go bad. I don’t listen to such people.

This is probably one for @jhodg5ck or @Klink since I don’t wrench. But that is weird. That return line damper and failure to properly bleed the system (air pockets) are all I can think of. When you say “rodeo” you mean the computerized one, not the internet “raise and lower” correct?

maw
 
That line let go as soon as I got the car so yep, that's how it went. Fortunately it happened 3ft away from the lift and ALL accumulators and dampeners have been replaced.

When you say “rodeo” you mean the computerized one, not the internet “raise and lower” correct?
Yes mate. This ain't my first rodeo.

You understand that you'll have to eventually replace all those rubber lines right? Now you know that it's going to be more fun than you can possibly bear :)
 
That line let go as soon as I got the car so yep, that's how it went. Fortunately it happened 3ft away from the lift and ALL accumulators and dampeners have been replaced. You understand that you'll have to eventually replace all those rubber lines right? Now you know that it's going to be more fun than you can possibly bear :)
Then your car might be a perfect candidate for @dionphaneuf buddy. At $6500, there is a deal to be done.

Oh, and thanks for the well wishes😒

maw
 
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Then your car might be a perfect candidate for @dionphaneuf buddy. At $6500, there is a deal to be done.

Oh, and thanks for the well wishes😒

maw

I don't know who that is, and there's no reason to take personally, I'm selling my car and not shorting stock that your 401k is tied up in.
I still have two other cars with ABC suspension that we can commiserate over in the future.
 

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