Is it time for new engine mounts?

[jgt157]

Ever since we got this blast of cold air in NC, one of my fan blades has started to hit the bottom of the fan shroud. It goes away after the engine warms up. Is that an indication the engine mounts need changing? If so, is there a how to on how to do it? The shop that did the smoke test on my car quoted me $750 to do it. That's a big hunk of mulah...

 

[gerryvz]

You just need to re-align your fan shroud so that it's properly centered around the fan. Easy to do, unless one or two of the bolts that hold the two halves of the fan shroud are stripped out, then it gets a bit more complicated to extract them. You can do this easily though.

 

[gsxr]

As Gerry said... more likely to be a shroud alignment issue.

Motor mounts can be checked as shown below. It's a rather unpleasant job, $750 including labor is about right for most shops... just make sure the mounts installed are OE or OEM (Boge/Lemforder) only. There are cheap Chinese mounts out there and you don't want to be re-doing the job in six months...

 

[Klink]

As Gerry said... more likely to be a shroud alignment issue.

Motor mounts can be checked as shown below. It's a rather unpleasant job, $750 including labor is about right for most shops... just make sure the mounts installed are OE or OEM (Boge/Lemforder) only. There are cheap Chinese mounts out there and you don't want to be re-doing the job in six months...

LOL, how about redoing it after six hours. One of my coworkers got a fantastic price on a set of "hydro" motor mounts for his 944. They looked something close to OEM, and had some grind marks on them making him think that maybe this was where the OEM designations had been ground off. Hope springs eternal, don't you know. He hit the ignition, and it was like the motor was sitting on the frame. We were all laughing out loud, him too, that's how bad it was! We cut them open, and found them to be nothing more than an original looking shell and top flange full of rubber. No "Hydro" at all, just mount...

 

[jgt157]

How hard of a job is this for a DIYer? Is there a how to on how to do it? The reason I ask is while I was driving it this week, I had to apply the brakes pretty hard one day and I could hear the fan blade hitting that shroud.

 

[mistermiata]

Hi,

I did this job just a few months ago. It's not a fun job, but it's not technically difficult. No special tools are required, just a lot of time and patience. You also need to be prepared to lie on your back under the car (if you don't have a lift) for 8 plus hours. There are several write ups on this forum with the specific's, just search "engine mounts" and you will have all the info you need.

If you have any specific questions after researching the job, ask away!

Good luck!

Andy

 

[samiam44]

If you hustle, five hrs. I'm sure when you are under there you will find something else to Dress.


It also depends on climate. Those upper bolts can seize or you strip the hex and a technicallly easy job turns ugly.
On mine , I had extreme difficulties bc of the headers. The bolts squeaked the whole way out.
Some have cut the engine support in half and replaced due to seized bolts.


M

 

[jgt157]

This is a California car and there's no sign of rust underneath. I took the brake calipers off and there was no rust whatsoever on the bolts. One of the very nice things about the car.

 

[jgt157]

You just need to re-align your fan shroud so that it's properly centered around the fan. Easy to do, unless one or two of the bolts that hold the two halves of the fan shroud are stripped out, then it gets a bit more complicated to extract them. You can do this easily though.

The first day in about 3 weeks I've been able to work on the 400E. I tried to adjust the fan shroud, but I didn't see how to move it around any. I was able to loosen the bolts with no issues just wasn't able to move shroud down any. Right now the blade only hits the shroud a second or two and stops. Any suggestions?

 

[gerryvz]

Ruh Roh Raggy....

The shroud is in two pieces. It fits into two slots on the lower radiator support, and is clipped in a couple of places to to the upper radiator support.

Where EXACTLY is the fan hitting the shroud?

It is possible to adjust the shroud in a sideways direction slightly.

It's sounding to me as if it is a motor mount issue....

 

[jgt157]

Yeah, its hitting on the bottom right side (passenger). There is a significant difference in the distance between the fan and shroud at the top and bottom.

 

[gsxr]

Yeah, its hitting on the bottom right side (passenger). There is a significant difference in the distance between the fan and shroud at the top and bottom.

Sounds like the shroud is not seated properly. Even with the engine mounts completely collapsed, there is usually still adequate clearance between the fan blade and shroud. Triple-check your shroud alignment, you can move it both left/right as well as up/down with the factory slots/tabs.

 

[jgt157]

Question...Do I need to remove the bolts from the shroud before I can adjust it or should I be able to move it bolted together?

 

[gsxr]

No need to unbolt it. Remove the two U-shaped clips near the top and it will move up/down and left/right. It's a minor hassle to get the lower tabs and upper tabs in the locating slots. A second set of hands is helpful, but it can be done alone.

 

[jgt157]

I found out that it was the a/c line running under and to the right of the shroud that was preventing me from being able to move the shroud over to the right. Engine mounts definitely need replacing and probably the tranny mount too. The tranny is almost up against the the right side of the transmission tunnel (probably the cause of my vacuum leak for the upshift delay). Purchased engine mounts and will be replacing them. Tranny mount will have to wait a bit.

 

[gerryvz]

Transmission mount is by far the easier item to replace; it should be replaced at the same time the engine mounts are replaced for best results. Bite the bullet and do it all at one time.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[RicardoD]

Re: OWNER - Melville

What's the frequency of motor mount replacement. Mine were replaced at 92k miles in 2002. I am at 150k miles now in 2016. The mechanic who recently did my transmission fluid changed recommended a change the mounts. I am hoping to get my car on the lift to do the suggested measurement inspection that GSXR suggested. Is it mileage or time with these mounts?

 

[gsxr]

Re: OWNER - Melville

Klink can confirm, but I believe with the M119 engine mounts it's more mileage than time. The measurement is a good indicator, if the measurement shows they are collapsed, they are toast regardless of time or miles (IMO). Make sure to only used OEM Boge mounts; best source I know of is Lemforder-reboxed OEM mounts from Rock Auto. I don't think the OE/dealer mounts are worth paying 3x-4x more; I can't tell any difference between them.

With 58kmi and 14 years, I'd suspect yours are tired. I am curious what the measurement is!

 

[RicardoD]

I hijacked an owner thread somewhat with this question, but it really belongs here.

What's the frequency of motor mount replacement. Mine were replaced at 92k miles in 2002. I am at 150k miles now in 2016. The mechanic who recently did my transmission fluid changed recommended I change the mounts. I am hoping to get my car on the lift to do the suggested measurement inspection that GSXR suggested. Is it mileage or time with these mounts?

My engineless silver 964 is on my lift, ordered a set of wheel dollies at http://www.car-dolly.com so I can lower my Porsche and make room for some E500 work. However, If I do change the mounts, I am still getting the mounts replaced by my local Mercedes mechanic as I am not sure I have what I need to do it right.

Start at post #115 in this thread for more comments: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8270&page=2&p=127412&viewfull=1#post127412

ADMIN EDIT: Posts from above thread moved here, read below...

 

[gerryvz]

OWNER - Melville

I have always said that if your car had 75-80K miles and you cannot confirm the motor mounts have been replaced, then they are in need of replacement.

For most people this is the case.

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[Klink]

Re: OWNER - Melville

What's the frequency of motor mount replacement. Mine were replaced at 92k miles in 2002. I am at 150k miles now in 2016. The mechanic who recently did my transmission fluid changed recommended a change the mounts. I am hoping to get my car on the lift to do the suggested measurement inspection that GSXR suggested. Is it mileage or time with these mounts?

Klink can confirm, but I believe with the M119 engine mounts it's more mileage than time. The measurement is a good indicator, if the measurement shows they are collapsed, they are toast regardless of time or miles (IMO). Make sure to only used OEM Boge mounts; best source I know of is Lemforder-reboxed OEM mounts from Rock Auto. I don't think the OE/dealer mounts are worth paying 3x-4x more; I can't tell any difference between them.

With 58kmi and 14 years, I'd suspect yours are tired. I am curious what the measurement is!

I have always said that if your car had 75-80K miles and you cannot confirm the motor mounts have been replaced, then they are in need of replacement.

For most people this is the case.

I agree. My experience had been that most mounts get done in as much by time as by mileage, but the large hydro-mounts as used on the M119 engine cars seem to be worn out far more by mileage than by time. The rear "transmission" mounts seem to be more time dependent, but they are cheap and easy to replace.

 

[Trae]

Re: OWNER - Melville

Great explanation of why we need to keep good, fresh motor mounts on our cars.

If I remember correctly, Jono told me to replace my 129 mounts at only 60k about two years ago.

I thought it too soon, but once we got them removed, one was considerably more compressed than the other.

So, in my case, all those years of that M113 just sitting there compressed and "wore out" those mounts at just 60K.

 

[Melville]

Here's a free tip for all people thinking about selling your car. Replace your motor mounts if you expect anyone to do any test drives.

I paid $225 per mount OE from MB Classics center. I think we got pretty close to conclusively proving that the Lemforder mounts are the same. If I remember correctly, the weight of the OE ones and the Lemforder ones are within a gram or two of each other. I saw Lemforder ones from the usual sources for about $95 but I wanted to be sure I was getting the good stuff. In many cases it is best to go OE, but in this case save your money. Feel free to send me a check (or paypal) of 50% of your savings to pay for this invaluable advice.

 

[RicardoD]

Ok guys, I just ordered Lemforder mounts and used the savings to get an MB transmission mount as well. I will ask my mechanic to take the GSXR mount measurement to add to our data set on this topic.

 

[gsxr]

Ricardo, when you receive the Lemforder mounts, compare to the photos at this link and make sure they have the MB part number and Boge markings. If they look different - please post info & pics here along with the vendor!

Background story: Jono reported receiving no-name mystery mounts in a Lemforder box earlier this year (from a reputable wholesale distributor), and we weren't sure if it was a fluke. I had later ordered a couple sets (from a different vendor) and they were OEM Boge as seen in the pics at the link above. I haven't heard of any further reports so for the moment I'm hoping it was an isolated incident.

 

[Hollybrook]

One thing I have unfortunately seen happen too many times is the obviously wrong part in a box. I think unscrupulous people buy a good part and a cheap one, use the quality part and return the cheap one in the expensive box for a refund.

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[RicardoD]

Dave,

Just got back from vacation and my Lemforder mounts where waiting for me. Confirmed they are the BOGE mounts with the white marker "BBB" on the side. It matches your pictures. I weighted one mount and it is at 1646g. I will hopefully get these babies installed along with the transmission mount this week.

 

[gsxr]

Nice! Those are fresh, too... produced in late 2015.

 

[Eno]

How much were the Lemforder mounts?
I bought Febi mounts made by Boge for $85 each.


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[lowman]

Dave,

Just got back from vacation and my Lemforder mounts where waiting for me. Confirmed they are the BOGE mounts with the white marker "BBB" on the side. It matches your pictures. I weighted one mount and it is at 1646g. I will hopefully get these babies installed along with the transmission mount this week.

where did you order these?
im not shure if im gonna replace them or not..as i have taken a look at mine..and they dooo seem intact..and even the distance measured from the oil pan down to the front subframe..is the same as it is supposed to be when the engine mounts are in good shape..so..

thanx

 

[lowman]

One thing I have unfortunately seen happen too many times is the obviously wrong part in a box. I think unscrupulous people buy a good part and a cheap one, use the quality part and return the cheap one in the expensive box for a refund.

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if that is the case..that is really a sad thing..

 

[Klink]

if that is the case..that is really a sad thing..

People do that all day long and twice on Sunday. It is standard operating procedure for many...

 

[RicardoD]

where did you order these?

I ordered these from Autohaus AZ:

http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/1085001

 

[kwontumspeed]

People do that all day long and twice on Sunday. It is standard operating procedure for many...

And I can only image how much of this happens in an Amazon Prime world...

 

[lowman]

I ordered these from Autohaus AZ:

http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/1085001

Thank you very much

 

[whitehawk]

What I saved by doing the labor myself, I spent on the OEM mounts . Peace of mind yes. Once you know how to do this job, I wouldn't shy away from doing it again - but I won't need to for many years. As others have reported, the difference in monumental! not just at idle, when you can't tell the car is running without looking at the tach, but highway feel is rock solid and smooth. The transmission mount is also quite easy.

 

[RicardoD]

Ok guys, got my engine & transmission mount changed. Made a huge difference in overall front end smoothness but only had a short ride so far. Still need to evaluate if I should do front strut mounts next.

My mechanic at Circle Star Motors in Santa Cruz, CA states that the GSXR measurement below was 19mm before and 28mm after changing the engine mounts. These mounts had 58k miles on them and 14 years.

 

[Jlaa]

Hi all,

I would like to refresh this thread. Based on all the discussion above, and as well my propensity to do all the service-related things that Ricardo does, albeit, 1-2 years later, I think its time for new motor mounts.

- Car has 66K miles - no documentation of motor mounts previously being replaced
- As of late I feel a faint vibration, which is slightly increasing in amplitude with each passing month, at 60 mph
- Both driveshaft rubber couplers and center support bearing were replaced less than 3K miles ago.

Where does one get these mounts these days in mid 2018 (ruling out meyle, corteco, pro, rein)? I searched through a bunch of threads and this is what I can find on the intrawebz:

Motor Mounts (2x) - 124-240-2617

• Make sure if using aftermarket parts that it has BBB or OE Boge Markings or shows MB Star Ground off
• Make sure it weighs ~3.6 lbs
• ZF - shows backorder from autohauosaz
• Lemforder - shows out of stock at RockAuto
• ZF - $132.75 from PeachParts <-- UPDATE --- shows Out of Stock when trying to put in cart
• OE - $220.52 - Naperville

Is PeachParts really the only place for ZF/Lemforder mounts right now? [UPDATE - shows out of stock when trying to put in cart] I also found a note from Honch in 2011 where he disagreed with gsxr --- honch didn't like the Lemforder stuff, whereas gsxr had no qualms.... hmm....

Also I figure I need these

Top Bolt (2x) - 304017010051

• OE - $3.11 - Naperville

Transmission Mount (1x) - 140-240-0318

• OE - $103.60 - Naperville

As well I read through some "while you are in there" suggestions. GSXR recommended doing the low-pressure power steering hoses. Are these the correct part numbers?

Low Pressure Power Steering Hoses

• S-Hose - 124-460-25-24 ?????
• Straight House hidden along frame rail - 124-466-32-81 ????

I have already done the lower engine wiring harness and oil level sensor 3K miles ago.

Thanks!

 

[maw1124]

I think the mounts are a time thing. So if Ricardo’s car is a ‘92, your system makes good sense. Jokes but not really. If the car doesn’t idle like a Prius, yes it’s time for motor mounts. I did mine last year I think. ‘92 with similar miles — OEM was the recommendation I went with. PS hoses were done at acquisition, as the high pressure one was weeping a bit.

I know that’s only a partial and not very good answer without part numbers but I hope it helps.

maw

 

[Jlaa]

OK gang ---

I think I need suggestions on where to procure these engine mounts, aside from OE parts from MB Classic or Naperville - if possible.

I realized that peach parts doesn't actually have any ZF mounts (when trying to put in cart - it says OOS)
As well, I looked through this thread -- https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12499 about FCP Euro not having anymore legit mounts - not even "BBB" with markings scratched off in Febi boxes.

Looks like a missed a blowout of remaining Lemforder inventory on 124.240.2617 by 2 months or so --- DOH!!!!

Suggestions welcome....

 

[nocfn]

Fcpeuro, or anywhere you cam get
Lemfoerder boxed Boge.

 

[Jlaa]

Thanks --- Just FYI --- Lemfoerder is OOS everywhere -- not at rock auto, not at fcpeuro, not at ecs tuning, not at pelican/peach, and not at autohauosaz.
So now I'm trying to find anyone that has Febi on the hopes that Febi turns out to be reboxed Boge/ZF....

 

[maw1124]

FWIW, my guys ordered a non-OEM (maybe Febi) and an OEM part in an attempt to convince themselves I didn’t need to spend the extra dough. They were unable to do so, even though they looked the same and weighed the same to the touch. Go figure. If you want me to confirm they were indeed Febi (or whatever they were), lemme know.

maw

 

[nocfn]

Rmeuropean? On an airplane so my internet is spotty....

 

[Jlaa]

FWIW, my guys ordered a non-OEM (maybe Febi) and an OEM part in an attempt to convince themselves I didn’t need to spend the extra dough. They were unable to do so, even though they looked the same and weighed the same to the touch. Go figure. If you want me to confirm they were indeed Febi (or whatever they were), lemme know.

maw

Thanks for the offer to look it up! I think right now I'm not even at that point yet --- I'm just trying to hunt down if it is even possible to find a channel to purchase Febi part number 06427 (not 07960, as this part number seems to have been conflated at times at various online sources as alluded to here -- https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12499)

Klink had this to say not long ago --- in this thread --- https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11023&page=3&p=143337&viewfull=1#post143337

In the last couple of years, and just last month, I got some Febis dirt cheap for several 140s and a couple of 129s. They were perfect new original Boges with the Benz stars and part numbers ground off....

which is why I am willing to take a gamble...

 

[Jlaa]

Rmeuropean? On an airplane so my internet is spotty....

Thanks for the suggestion at 30K feet! Alas, no dice -

 

[nocfn]

Thanks for the offer to look it up! I think right now I'm not even at that point yet --- I'm just trying to hunt down if it is even possible to find a channel to purchase Febi part number 06427 (not 07960, as this part number seems to have been conflated at times at various online sources as alluded to here -- https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12499)

Klink had this to say not long ago --- in this thread --- https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11023&page=3&p=143337&viewfull=1#post143337



which is why I am willing to take a gamble...

Yes !! Febi or mb then

 

[maw1124]

Yeah, my guys had that thread but didn’t want to be responsible for the re-do if... I think that thread was how I convinced them to play along for science in the first place.

If you’re DIY, then by all means, gamble away.

maw

 

[Jlaa]

Yeah, my guys had that thread but didn’t want to be responsible for the re-do if...

If you’re DIY, then by all means, gamble away.

maw

Yeah - good point. Since this is something I'm not comfortable with DIY, maybe I'll just bite the bullet and go OE from Naperville.....

 

[a777fan]

Yeah - good point. Since this is something I'm not comfortable with DIY, maybe I'll just bite the bullet and go OE from Naperville.....

Seems reasonable, since the price difference amortized over the number of years between replacements is relatively low... especially if you are paying someone to do it.


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