Installing 722.6 (5-speed automatic transmission) into W124 E500E

[Christian_K]

Hey guys, following up on those two cluttered topics, http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1857 and http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3720, i'd like to start a new topic, specifically about fitting these 722.6xx 5 Speed gearboxes into our beloved W124 E500Es. I think this will be my next bigger project for my 500E the next 1-2 years.

To summarize whats needed:
- Gearbox 722.625 from E420/E50 AMG W210 (W5A580). Some Say also the ones from the W/C 140 and R129 do work - lets discuss this here.
- Aftermarket Standalone controller. Currently there are only two that shine out: The Ole Fejer unit, which was specifically made to fit the 722.6 and the more universal PCS TCM-2000 with a 722.6xx harness.
- Some fiddling with cables, electronics, ATF cooling lines, etc.
- Shiftpanel/Shifter-console from late W202 or R171 Series.

I've found this Video on youtube which shows the pros and cons of both units for the 722.6xx use in a W123 chassis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKrw--4Su1M
So i want to get this done, maybe next year after the meet in June or lets see what and when it happens. These gearboxxes are like 150€ of German Ebay. Sure enough a slight overhaul would be needed before putting them into the car. Ole and others recommend to get the clearance at the clutch packs as tight as possible and do a little mod to the valve-body.
I will also try to convice Ole Fejer to join our Forums and help us out. Maybe if there is enough interest, we could get some advantages, like adjustments for the 500E, 6L, 6.xL or SC cars. Or a group buy is also possible.

According to Russell (WhippleM104), the stock main shaft will fit these W210 Gearboxes despite them beeing 1/4 inch (6.4mm) longer than our 722.3xx boxxes.
Also i want the shift indicator like in the Ole Fejer unit, but much smaller to fit them in the stock IC and in amber color. Maybe we can look together for a small digital number unit.

There are still things to discuss here, Inputs that our LH unit in the 500E or the car strongly needs:
- Gear lever position,
- Overload-switch.
- Speed signal for the speedometer. I saw the Ole Jefer unit has outputs for speed that can even be adjusted and directly fires up a E500E/E420 speedo.
- Starter-Lockout switch too.
- How does kickdown switch work? I know that my CL C215 with the later 722.6xx box has full electrical pedal and "kickdown" is just more than 100% Throttleposition.
- Will S/W Switch work like expected?
- Can something solve the 3/4 upshift flare that both standalone TCUs deliver, because there is no Torque Management available with the standalone TCUs?
- Throttle Position? Can these boxes work with our Pedals or do we need an mechanical -> electric converter at the throttle linkage?
- Shut down of the two vacuum-"switches" for the cold-start RPM raise and the E/S Switch in Europe cars.


Some things can be solved with relays, let see what we can come up with.

 

[Christian_K]

Re: 722.6 (5 Speed AT-Gearbox) into W124 E500E

I found a video about the Ole Fejer box in an W124:
[video=youtube;oM76wcgnfHo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM76wcgnfHo[/video]

 

[Rouven036]

I can tell you that the ole fejer unit works great. He is also a very helpful guy who usually responds in very short time if any questions occur. To fit the 722.6 perfectly to our 036 it's a bit more work to get it done properly. Even so if you check his Website www.ofgear.dk there is lots of information. Mechanical installation of the tranny is no problem at all as long it comes from a 119. To use the 4 arm flange pattern you must install the 722.6 output flange from w140 bullet proof versions. Unfortunately I m travelling tonight to visit the iaa on Saturday so won't have time to respond in detail until I m back. I have the ole fejer unit in my 123 and I m truly amazed with it. Just some actual photos since I just installed a gear knob today...

 

[whipplem104]

Just to answer the points raised above. The PCS tcu that I sell is specific to the 722.6. It has different firmware for this transmission than all others. You can piggy back the signals from any sensor, you simply tie into the signal wire and calibrate the sensors in the software. Speedo output works for the speedometer. I use 400/500e speedometers in w124 conversion cars. WOT is set as a % of throttle input. You simply calibrate what % you want to go into WOT mode. IT has outputs that can be configured.
W/s will work if you wire it up and set it up.
Pretty much anything you listed can be done.
As far as the 3-4 flare. I have solved this. It depends on power and transmission setup but I can tune this out. A small porting of the intermediate plate on the valve body and some tuning.
You can also adjust shifts based on coolant temperature so you can easily do the delayed upshift. You could also adjust on demand from the upshift delay signal from the ecu if you wanted.
I will take a look at some of the info on the n/s switch and the timing retard. Like I said these should be no problem. There are a limited number of outputs so some compromise will probably have to be made on full functionality of all of these features and a default just set to prevent a fault code and or power loss. I know the timing retards full on some vehicle if the pressure switch is unplugged. The n/s I think also we would just put a resistor in that is for D mode all the time or something of that nature.

 

[whipplem104]

Also I want to make sure you guys know. This is not something that is factory. You cannot expect it to be factory. It takes a lot of time to tune for quality shifts and a lot of thought and understanding. Thinking about the dynamics of the way a car works. What is load. How does load change. Looking at datalogs and diagnosing a good shift and a bad shift and see what is different. It is as dynamic as you can make it. But there are limitations. The new system that I am working on with PCS is much better but 10x more complicated to tune. But honestly it will be about as factory as you can get. I just yesterday installed it in my daily and drove home and back to work and much of it is already better than what I had before which I had been working on for years.

And one more thing do not get old transmissions from early cars. They are junk. Unless it has been replaced with a rebuilt post 2000-2001 just get one for the bellhousing and swap it over to a late model v8 transmission from a 5.0l what ever car. And if you really want a nice product rebuild the transmission and tighten up the clearances on the clutch packs. You can not tune a worn out junk transmission.

 

[Rouven036]

Well said about the transmission condition. It's important to have the newer type with roller bearing junction of input and output shaft. The older ones used to have a slide bearing which was/is known to fail.

 

[gsxr]

Do you know the approximate production date when the bearing was changed from slide to roller?

 

[whipplem104]

2000 my for the most part so I would assume rebuilt units were about the same time.

 

[Taxi Driver]

You simply tear it down, easy peasy nothing to it

[video=youtube;mMtVW_WeR_c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMtVW_WeR_c[/video]

 

[Allgonquin]

If I'm not mistaken, that's a Harbor Freight tool cart.... I'm surprised how carefree he is about hammering that shaft out of the case. I would have put a wood block or used a lead hammer. But then again I would not dare to venture into the black magic of which an automatic transmission is made anyway.

 

[SG-Motorsports]

If I'm not mistaken, that's a Harbor Freight tool cart.... I'm surprised how carefree he is about hammering that shaft out of the case. I would have put a wood block or used a lead hammer. But then again I would not dare to venture into the black magic of which an automatic transmission is made anyway.

I agree, funny how he just beats the heck out of the end shaft. I also cringe at all the scratches he's putting into the case ports every time he's sliding it all over his bench. There's a reason why MB makes a stand to repair these transmissions with. I always stand them on the nose so you don't damage the case where the valve-body mates to the case. I don't know if it's the video quality or not, but the fluid looked terrible too! I hope he checked the K3 pack. Russell knows what I'm talking about!!

 

[SG-Motorsports]

Also, as a note to this thread, I have ridden in several of Russell's (whipplem104's) 722.6 swapped cars and they are very very close to a factory feel. I think he's being a bit modest about how good the PCS module works, but for good reason, I think he wants to set a realistic expectation. I plan to do this swap on a couple of my cars and have no hesitation at all about using the PCS set-up, I'm actually really looking forward to it because it's a quality product.

 

[500AMM]

Also, as a note to this thread, I have ridden in several of Russell's (whipplem104's) 722.6 swapped cars and they are very very close to a factory feel. I think he's being a bit modest about how good the PCS module works, but for good reason, I think he wants to set a realistic expectation. I plan to do this swap on a couple of my cars and have no hesitation at all about using the PCS set-up, I'm actually really looking forward to it because it's a quality product.

Thanks for reporting, Steve!
I guess you refers to the first version of the PCS, or the current version for sale ATM, and not the latest and more complex version Russel is testing right now?

The choice of TCU controller is a bit ahead in my case, and I'm hardly going to do the in-car tuning myself. I'll do all wrenching and installation, but I don't have sufficient knowledge to tune in the controller at present moment. I am fast learning, but I feel this is not the best "trial & fail" DIY and risk fatal consequences.

The utmost importance for me is that the controller is safe & reliable and don't bring potential problems like take fire, or in worst case block the tranny and rear wheels during driving. Supposed that everything with the tranny is in order and set to the specs Russel has underlined, such situations may not be possible FWIK. Anyhow, I just need a guarantee that the TCU controller won't cause mentioned scenarios.

-a-

 

[500AMM]

Hey guys, following up on those two cluttered topics, http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1857 and http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3720, i'd like to start a new topic, specifically about fitting these 722.6xx 5 Speed gearboxes into our beloved W124 E500Es. I think this will be my next bigger project for my 500E the next 1-2 years.

According to Russell (WhippleM104), the stock main shaft will fit these W210 Gearboxes despite them beeing 1/4 inch (6.4mm) longer than our 722.3xx boxxes.

Thanks for making a specific thread about this upgrade, it's easier to keep overview on essential information. And the tranny length is a good one to sort out at an early point. A shorter tranny would be simpler than a longer one, but is this solved by shortening the propeller shaft?

I can tell you that the ole fejer unit works great. He is also a very helpful guy who usually responds in very short time if any questions occur. To fit the 722.6 perfectly to our 036 it's a bit more work to get it done properly. Even so if you check his Website www.ofgear.dk there is lots of information. Mechanical installation of the tranny is no problem at all as long it comes from a 119. To use the 4 arm flange pattern you must install the 722.6 output flange from w140 bullet proof versions. Unfortunately I m travelling tonight to visit the iaa on Saturday so won't have time to respond in detail until I m back. I have the ole fejer unit in my 123 and I m truly amazed with it. Just some actual photos since I just installed a gear knob today...

And this one, is this a Plug & Play replacement?

Also I want to make sure you guys know. This is not something that is factory. You cannot expect it to be factory. It takes a lot of time to tune for quality shifts and a lot of thought and understanding. Thinking about the dynamics of the way a car works. What is load. How does load change. Looking at datalogs and diagnosing a good shift and a bad shift and see what is different. It is as dynamic as you can make it. But there are limitations. The new system that I am working on with PCS is much better but 10x more complicated to tune. But honestly it will be about as factory as you can get. I just yesterday installed it in my daily and drove home and back to work and much of it is already better than what I had before which I had been working on for years.

And one more thing do not get old transmissions from early cars. They are junk. Unless it has been replaced with a rebuilt post 2000-2001 just get one for the bellhousing and swap it over to a late model v8 transmission from a 5.0l what ever car. And if you really want a nice product rebuild the transmission and tighten up the clearances on the clutch packs. You can not tune a worn out junk transmission.

Russel, that testing you are doing right now, is that with a 036?

The transmission model year is important, as new as possible including paddle shift. As for tightening up the clutch packs, is that something a transmission workshop/vendor would do based on given specs?

-a-

 

[Christian_K]

On a side note, will any 722.6 bellhousing Fit M103/M104 engines?
I have a W124 300E that will be my daily driver soon, as its stupid to drive that AMG Monster daily for work and going to get groceries Lol. Well and the 300E has an even more stupid RPM level. Going 60mph and having like 2600RPM... Going Autobahn crusing speeds (between 130-160kph, thats between 85-100mph) is around 4000-4500RPM IIRC. Thats really terrible and going to other rear diff ratios will kill any kind of "acceleration" it still has (yes im spoiled by V8s every day).

Russsell...Its good that there is some kind of competition, at the end its always good for the customers. Are there any advantages of Russells PCS TCU over the Ole box at all?
Russell and if you could do a manual/list and show us what everything is possible with your setup, it would be nice.

I hope Ole will register here and chime in. So far i like the supposedly ease of use with the Ole Kit, the included gear indicator and the little LCD with which you can adjust all the settings, peddal and manual mode possibilities. I want to have still that bit of adjustment possibilities that his TCU offers, without having to hook up a laptop everytime i want to slightly adjust a certain shift. He even has a "rate shift" functionality which is very easy to use. You rate the last shift and say if it was to hard or to soft and the TCu will adjust. Wow.
I read the whole manuals and the whole website this night about the Ole TCU and i was blown away. I think for my purpose, it will be suficcient if we could iron out the in the OP listed issues.

The following issues can be solved by the Ole box according to the manual:

- Overload-switch. --> The Ole TCU can send a signal at certain Load/RPM shifts and might then actuate any relay that closes the contacts for the EZL. We need to check the FSMs how the original switch works.
- Speed signal for the speedometer. --> Can be done with either internal or external speed sensors. Internal from the gearbox have the disadvantage that during a shift, speed is not updated. ABS/ASR sensors input will work. W126, W124 420/500 speedos work.
- Starter-Lockout switch --> With one of the 4 AUX channels
- How does kickdown switch work? --> Kickdown depending on throttle position or from external source like stock Kickdown switch.
- Will S/W Switch work like expected? --> Both modes can be setup as desired according to my understandings of the manual
- Can something solve the 3/4 upshift flare --> He has a specific adjustment setting for that in the newest software of the TCU. Dunno if it will 100% fix it.
- Throttle Position? --> I think if i understood it right, almost any voltage source with a linear voltage running during throttle depressing, can work. We need to get that voltage it from the can box then i think.
- Shut down of the two vacuum-"switches" for the cold-start RPM raise and the E/S Switch in Europe cars. --> Can be done on your own.

Whats left is the range selection for the LH ECU. At least it needs to know if the car is in P/N or in *any* gear. I think we wont get a DTC when we are going reverse and the LH sees we are in "D". But i believe that when the LH reads that we are in P and we are in fact moving and accelerating, we might get the Limp mode. So this is a must have to solve this before going with the Ole TCU

Thanks for making a specific thread about this upgrade, it's easier to keep overview on essential information. And the tranny length is a good one to sort out at an early point. A shorter tranny would be simpler than a longer one, but is this solved by shortening the propeller shaft?
No need to short. People say that there is enough "play" in the center of the propeller shaft/main shaft/kardanwelle to compensate those millimeters.



And this one, is this a Plug & Play replacement?
Yes the flanges can be replaced quite easy. See the video Roger posted about 722.6 dissasembling.



The transmission model year is important, as new as possible including paddle shift. As for tightening up the clutch packs, is that something a transmission workshop/vendor would do based on given specs?
I think peddal shift does not depend on year of the box itself. I think it always was software/conductor plate. I will want to go with the cheap E420 boxes, and up them to AMG standard with clutchpacks and ne new bearing tpyes. Obviously i will add a new conductor plate and the mentioned AMG (blue)valves for it. But maybe someone else can deny or confirm this assumption by me.

-a-

 

[500AMM]

That sounds fine, Christian. It would be beneficial if Ole Fejer participated here, instead of us posting questions on that SuperTurboDiesel forum - and next copy & paste the info here.
Have you noticed him about the discussion started on this forum?

--- --- --- ---

BTW, I sent you an Email last week about R172 sport seats. No rush, but did you receive the email?

 

[Christian_K]

That sounds fine, Christian. It would be beneficial if Ole Fejer participated here, instead of us posting questions on that SuperTurboDiesel forum - and next copy & paste the info here.
Have you noticed him about the discussion started on this forum?

--- --- --- ---

BTW, I sent you an Email last week about R172 sport seats. No rush, but did you receive the email?

Email i need to check sorry.
I invited Ole here via contact formular on his website. But i posted the link to this topic, so maybe it was considered as spam? Maybe you can write him an email too and invite him here?
Last sentence about the discussion started on this forum, i do not undestand right what you mean ?

 

[500AMM]

Email i need to check sorry.
I invited Ole here via contact formular on his website. But i posted the link to this topic, so maybe it was considered as spam? Maybe you can write him an email too and invite him here?
Last sentence about the discussion started on this forum, i do not undestand right what you mean ?

Have you noticed him about the discussion started on this forum? = Hast du ihn bemerkt über die Diskussion begann auf diesem Forum?

...wie du bereits getan haben.

 

[whipplem104]

Thanks, Steve.
And Steve has only ridden in what is available now. Well he has ridden in almost every stage of the game to be honest except what I am working on now.

As far as competition goes. 1st off I am here because I like the car and think it would be a cool swap. I do not expect to make any real money from this market. I figure maybe 2-3 people with a 500e will do this. I am going to sell 40+ systems this year and growing. Honestly actual Mercedes projects are about 10% or less of my business. Most are diesels in Europe.

I think that OLe has a pretty good setup from a very simple budget oriented system. It is not quite as versatile as the PCS system. He simply does not have the mapping abilities built in. Few things to point out though. It is a home made arduino setup. Not a manufactured and iso tested unit. The thing is that I have gotten tech support emails from his clients. I get the idea that it is not dynamic enough for quality shifting. This is hard to say for sure because shift quality is harder to do. I can also tell you that there is no datalogging. This is a big one for me. I would not sell a product like this without it. It is impossible to tell what is going on without datalogs. I can help solve almost any issue with a datalog from a client. I can normally even make some tune adjustments from the info and send the cal back to try out.
Also with the PCS setup you guys could share info and calibrations with each other. Since you are doing identical vehicles there could be a lot of info shared and calibrations can be loaded completely or you can import different parts to try out.

For a guarantee that nothing will ever go wrong. Well do not drive a car. Seriously they all break. Thank goodness to because I would be out of a job if they did not.
As far as damaging the transmission. I can say if I have not destroyed one then you will not. The only way I think you could really break one is with about 1100lb/ft of torque. And I have seen this. As far as tuning errors that can do some scary stuff. I can say that the current product can be made about as 100% reliable as you can get.
I have ratio calculation in the control unit. So it always knows what the actual gear ratio is and should be. I also recommend adding a control feedback loop using 1 input and output to put it in a limp mode of sorts. If transmission slip is detected above a certain point, ie you are in 2nd instead of 1st then it goes into manual mode. This stops all future shifting and the scenario that you could make it to a 2-3 shift while the 1-2 is still incorrect. Fyi this is very hard to even hit this scenario in the 1st place.

As far as features the tcu has there are really to many to list. It has 3 extra pwm outputs but cut one of those for the safety loop I use. Then 3 more digital outputs. 2 extra analog inputs one of which you will use for engine coolant temp if you want. And 15 digital inputs. Used for any mode on/off switch and shifter status on the prnd4321 shifters. Almost all of the inputs and outputs can be set and configured to do anything. So you can do pwm vs xyz from the list of options and there are a lot. I have done boost control, timing retard, ignition cut, glow relay control, n/s, reverse lights, led display, shift lights, voltage skew of pressures, looped feedback for activating features in the tcu such as the automatic manual mode from transmission slip, dual map settings. So it switches from cal a to cal b during a gear change for more pressure control, and a few things I am not remembering. Lots of vehicle integration setup stuff.
Last couple of things. I have not done any testing in a 500e. Nothing all that different though than other projects though. I looked into the overload protection yesterday. It is just a simple resitance switch. 1v-4v so two different resistors. We could do this with pwm probably. I doubt the car cares to much about signal quality. But if so a simple relay or just full time no timing retard. It is really up to you.
If anyone wants here is where you can download the software here. Also the manual. https://www.powertraincontrolsoluti...ts/TCM-2000_Transmission_Controller/TCM-2000/

 

[whipplem104]

I wanted to show what a log looks like on the new software. Same log viewer as the older stuff and the same things in play in the shift but a whole lot more data.
This is one shift. These are all the different parameters that I am working with in play. Most of what you see here is monitoring of the different shift stages. Targets and timing. Once you know what to look for in a good shift and a bad shift then you can add in the the stuff controlling the shift to see what they were set at.

 

[alabbasi]

On a side note, will any 722.6 bellhousing Fit M103/M104 engines?

The kid who works for me is doing this conversion to his 87 300TD with OM603. He indicated that the v8 bell housing is different and had to source a 722.6 from a 1997 E320. It's a removable bell housing so you can use a v8 transmission if you want to swap the bell housing over.

 

[Christian_K]

Hi, i had some conversation with Ole Fejer over his Box. He has no time to register here but he said we can ask him via Email anytime. He will monitor this topic too and allowed me to post his answers here

Hi Christian.

Thanks for you email


Yes there is a lot of interest, i know.
But i am quite busy at the moment. Sorry, so i am not able to attend all the forums, but i know it is a great Forum. ;-)


And you should all feel free to mail me width question.


Just read some of the tread.
My only problem is that the functionality sometimes refer t to at forums is how it was 4 years ago


It is not Homemade anymore, today it is a system made on a professional, assembly factory.


Feel free to ask any question.

Below was our current conversation. Text in this color was from me, Red were his replies.

Hi Christian

Regarding the Questions:

- Gear lever position,I deliver all kits width the 10 Pin gearLever plug, then all function in gearlever is still there force down in gear, W/S (shift between 2 settings) and ligth
No i meant it different, Its not the gear lever with the new gear lever from W202/R129, but rather that our 500E ECU (LH-Jetronic) gets normally Data about actual shift position from the switch of the gearbox. It needs this data and its crucial for normal running.
Sometimes switch goes bad and when for instance the ECU sees we are in "P" or "N" and we still can accelerate and the car does move, we get Limp-Home mode from E-gas!
So we need to transmit current gear position to our LH ECU in which gear we are. That is crucial or everything will fail and it will be not possible to mount 722.6 to 500E.
It is only gets information about if in P/N OR in Gear, that is the same signal used for starter Lockout, and as you say tell ECU it is in gear, at least i think so, if that is the case, we need the box to give a signal, to tell that. to the ECU

- Overload-switch.
(I have output for the overload switch, it can send a signal to tell that a shift is coming)
The Issues is that the EZL ECU cuts Power for 400ms when activated. Condition is: - Above 4000RPM, More than IIRC 35% throttle position and upshift occuring. I think the 722.6 shifts quicker than 400ms? Old 722.3 shifts maybe in 400ms. Questions is if the EZL will expect a signal from the switch whenever i am above 4000RPM? If so we need to emulate it and it is good if your box can.
My box can send a grounded signal when shift starts, for an adjustable time. it can also be set to give the signal before the shift start, if that is needed.

- Speed signal for the speedometer. I saw the Ole Fejer unit has outputs for speed that can even be adjusted and directly fires up a E500E/E420 speedo.
Yes it can
Great can we use Speed Data from ABS Sensor front right? If so, how to do it? T-Connector for BNC? because its a coaxial cable? And then how to wire it to your unit?
Also, Where to get RPM from? Behind the dashboard for instrument cluster? Is it called circuit TD from ignition coils or so? Im not that car electric professional.
Yes ABS sensor is the best possible signal, i use that on my own car. this is rock stable, and yes just T-Connect direct to signal wire on the ABS sensor.
And if you have External speed, as you should in this tybe of car, i have a setting that compare, Internal speed and external speed, then i know when a shift is done. and i can allow the next shift, Allowable time between shift is then reduced.
RPM can bee taken from inductiv RPM sensor on the engine. also here just T-Connect.

- Starter-Lockout switch too.
(Yes that is also possible. but do not even use it but some want it)
Starter Lockout means that cranking is only possible when in P/N and when standing - am i right? I would not need it really as in know to only crank when car is off lol. But what is with Reverse light?
Reverse ligth is now in the Gear Lever if you take the Gear Lever from R129 or W202, there is a 2 pin plug that is shorten when in "R"
http://ofgear.dk/userguide/gearlever.html

- How does kickdown switch work? I know that my CL C215 with the later 722.6xx box has full electrical pedal and "kickdown" is just more than 100% Throttleposition. Kickdown if TPS is bigger then 97%, or wia the switch many cars has, up to you.
Great, i would want to use the original switch, nice.
Yes that is fine it is a opto coupled input accept 12V.

- Will S/W Switch work like expected?
Yes but now it shifts between 2 different settings
2 Different Settings is what exactly? Can i make a Setting for a real winter mode in W with launch in 2nd gear, slower shifts and earlier upshift?
When i deliver the Controller it has 2 identical setting. that can be shifted between, if you are in "W" and adjust something it is only stored in the W setting.
Those 2 setting is freely adjustable for any parameters, firmness, shift speed , yes All.

- Can something solve the 3/4 upshift flare that both standalone TCUs deliver, because there is no Torque Management available with the standalone TCUs?
Is explained by drake in the tread the a hole can be made bigger, but if Ignition retard is used it is not bad, if the box is in good condition
Hmm Ok... the 500E is a real performance car, so there are normally many WOT upshifts and Problem is that as written above, EZL will cut Power for 400ms... hmmm... Maybe we will experince a short loose in Power then during WOT max-RPM upshift. Hmm..
Where is that hole located in the valve body?
As it is just a setting to cut power or not, you can set it to only cut power when i "W" and not do it i "S"

- Throttle Position? Can these boxes work with our Pedals or do we need an mechanical -> electric converter at the throttle linkage?
Yes you need a Potientiometer, i always suggest a MB TPS sensor, as i always deliver my system width plug for that.
Here is a second big Problem. There is no room for adding such another TPS Sensor. Our Cars have already E-Gas. Here in my Video of my channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wluNngK-OuE) you can see that it has Two Potentiometer (M161R1 which is the expected TP Potentiometer and M161R2 which is he actual value potentiomerter) transfering voltages Linear in the rage from ~0.5V - 4.20V. Can't we use that instead?
Yes that voltage can be used no problem, just connect to TPS input, and run the 0-100% procedure, then thats it, it also accept if the Voltage is reverse, high voltage at 0% TPS.

- Shut down of the two vacuum-"switches" for the cold-start RPM raise and the E/S Switch in Europe cars.
I have always hated the RPM rise when cold, i have always blocked that on my car. ;-)
But it would be easy to raise the Shift points by a % when cold, as i know gearbox temperatur.
Yes i think so too hahah... was just a question to be solved on our side of the car, plugging the vacuum hoses and stuff.


Other Questions/Remarks:
- Where to Set max Shift RPM? Currently the ECU has RPM-Limiter at ~6200RPM. So can the gearbox be programmed that on normal full-throttle in mode S it shifts at 6000RPM but on Kickdown or Manual mode goes up to 6200RPM or any other value as desired? I have not found it in your manual.
You have to try that maby, set it to 5000RPM at the 1-2 shift as RPM rise wery fast in first gear, the delay has to be taken in to consideration
in 2-3 maby 5300, 3-4 maby 5600, i think you now know what i mean.
Yes it is in the Menu where you set Max shift RPM when WOT. you can set it for all gearshift.

- Can i use old 1997 E420 gearboxes? Because they are cheap? And i would add more double sided friction discs like from 55AMG gearboxes and add the better bearings plus new conductor plate with the blue AMG valves? Will Manual Mode and stuff then work?
Yes that would be a nice box to use.


And by the way, if you have any problems, then i normally solve it from just a simple picture of livedata on the display,
I also have a PC software, where you can read setting from controller, store them on PC mail them and so on.
It can also show livedata. but it is still just beta. (and first time you use it you need to install driver for the controller)

It can do Logdata. to a file, at a rate of 10/20 HZ, it is stored in a CSV file that can be analyzed in EXCEL,
http://ofgear.dk/download/index.html
All plugs used i originally mercedes plugs,
Components used in the controller is quality parts from Mouser.
And Controller are now SMD PCB made by a professional electronic manufacture.

And maby most importent, i alway set it up width parameters to fit the car i sell it to.

And normally suggest to just plug in big gearbox plug Gear Lever plug and TPS, and Power that is it, then test if all is working.
Then you start to use more feature like
1. External speed,
2. External RPM
3. ignition Retard,
4. Speedo out
and so on.

Thanks alot.
Can i post your answers to the Forums topic then? So everyone is helped?
Sure no problem

 

[samiam44]

Was the v12 available behind the 722.6xx?

 

[samiam44]

What steering wheel are you going to use Christian?

 

[gsxr]

Was the v12 available behind the 722.6xx?

Yes: The 722.621 was used behind the M120 V12 in the W140/R129.

The 722.6 can take all that power and more!

 

[whipplem104]

Well it looks like Ole has stepped it up a bit.

Just want to say to be careful about the 722.6 name and all the different .6-- variants. You really have to look at what the clutch setups are in the transmission itself. Do not get caught up in what car it came in and what engine it was bolted to other than what bellhousing you need for your engine. Also do not think that the double sided clutches are of any benefit. All of my builds have single sided clutches in them and have been behind over 1000whp cars that weight North of 4000lbs. I have done both ways and see no real benefit to the double sided clutches other than a small amount of adjustability in the clearances. People think that they can just stick in the thinnest steel plates and add more clutches and what I have found is that all you end up with is something that can not get rid of the heat and has stacking issues. I could go on.

And again for the love of god do not go get an early transmission for a m119 other than for the bellhousing and torque converter. They really are a piece.
If I take one out of a customer car at my shop and take it apart to do repairs or a rebuild they get thrown away and replaced. I will not rebuild one and the older valve bodies are prone to problems as well. Core transmissions are just to cheap to get that have all the updates.

 

[500AMM]

What steering wheel are you going to use Christian?

The paddle shifters is just two switches, so that can be anyhting. But the paddles have to be wide/long enough.
https://www.google.com/search?site=...s#tbm=isch&q=mercedes+benz+paddle+shift&imgrc=_
It should be possible to do a pretty seamless custom implant into the 124 steering wheels. Except from the airbag mounting bolts, it's spacy inside the back housing on the steering wheel. The wiring can be a challenge, maybe a smart wire twist should do fine instead of modifying the excisting contact ring.


-a-

 

[whipplem104]

I had intended on doing paddles in my coupe with the stock steering wheel. I really just could not come up with a way to do what I wanted. Finally just decided that if I want to shift manually that way that I would do it with the shifter. I had paddles in my wagon on a momo steering wheel and it is fun but I actually prefer using the shifter. But I have a late CAN shifter in that car for tip functions.
You can also just add a secondary lever for shifting. Like a SMG setup. Push to up shift and pull to downshift.

 

[jouniu]

How about using BMW stick instead of MB? It needs some rework to get it work mechanically but should be doable. It allows to use 722.6 in manual mode from stick. I mean this bmw stick:

 

[Rouven036]

Why all the trouble? Install the W202 or R129 722.6 shifter and use paddles if required. The shifter of these cars fit well. Arnt, the wiring through the spiral or on the older cars contact pins is easy and only the wiring has to be adapted at the sockets. Ole s Box uses resistor coded inputs to actuate the horn or recognise up/down shift signals from the paddles. See the info on his website about paddle shift. There is sufficient space to accommodate paddles which derive from original steering wheels. For example the AMG paddles of the R171 SLK55. I made my own paddles for my application

 

[Christian_K]

Personally i dont like pedals on a W124. Its does not fit these old cars. The later 722.6 Shiftstick has a Tiptronic function where you can move it left or right when in "D". Thats what i would want to do in my W124. However as i want to use the early 722.6 Shifter with "P,R,N,D,4,3,2" because of its older look and fitment into the stock W124 Wood, i would need to adapt the Tiptronic function somehow.

We will see... I have the Gearbox already here but no time this year for it. I discovered that it has a bowden cable which must be pulled in Order to get the range selector out of the "P" position.

 

[Rouven036]

You can use the smaller push button "paddles" too. They are not really visible when installed. I permanently blocked that bowden cable mechanism on the gear box. Starter lockout is done by the controller.

 

[500AMM]

Why all the trouble? Install the W202 or R129 722.6 shifter and use paddles if required. The shifter of these cars fit well. Arnt, the wiring through the spiral or on the older cars contact pins is easy and only the wiring has to be adapted at the sockets. Ole s Box uses resistor coded inputs to actuate the horn or recognise up/down shift signals from the paddles. See the info on his website about paddle shift. There is sufficient space to accommodate paddles which derive from original steering wheels. For example the AMG paddles of the R171 SLK55. I made my own paddles for my application

Thanks, that sounds to be simpler than expected then.

Nice work done with those paddles.

How about using BMW stick instead of MB? It needs some rework to get it work mechanically but should be doable. It allows to use 722.6 in manual mode from stick. I mean this bmw stick:

I would like paddles with regard to the driving, but a cool shift knob as the one on the enclosed image.


-a-

 

[Brabus388]

Hi
i would just like to share my experience with the 722.6 retrofit. I did this to my car which is a 1995 E320. It was almost two years ago using ole's tcu.
The result wasnt that good with the first controller, it cant read abs sensor directly. So i have to use the internal sensors, i use this for more than a year and this sensor was quite unstable and as a result some times shift happens when it wasnt expected to be.
Well i bought another unit from ole, which is the newer version. It can read my abs diff sensor perfectly even on very low speed (below 10kmh). The moment i installed the newer tcu, evrything works flawlessly. All i need to do is to adjust the shift points (shift speed) and firmness.

i will try to answer a few questions listed above base on my experience:


1. Bowden cable for shifter release: if you have a 722.3 based cars, the stock brake pedal has mechanism on top of it, which extend the cable when the pedal was not pressed. And when you press the brake pedal, it will push the other side of the cable out. Find a shifter cable from older 722.6 cars and install it on the pedal, it will push the cable out when you press the brake pedal to release the gearbox lock.you will need to add a stiffer springs on the pedal mechanism as the old spring wasnt strong enough to pull the cable back into its normal position. You will have to look closely on the mechanism.

2. Starter lockout : this is veryeasy to do, just connect aux-4 output wire to a relay, and connect the two starter wire on the oem gearbox connector to the relay. It will send out a ground signal to the relay and connects the starter lockout whenever the shifter is on P or N, the ground signal will dissappear when the shift is on D or any other gear.

3. W/S funtion : on default settings both mode has identical settings. Shift firmness and shift speed is identical. You will have to djust them one by one to your desired shift points and firmness. Yes it is possible to have a completely different setting between both mode. However either on w or S, the car will always start on 1st gear and higher ratio reverse gear (oem mb will start in 2nd gear on W and reverse on lower ratio reverse gear).

4. Tiptronic : this is super easyto do, just connect a single wire to the controller and on the other side of the wire split them into two switches, upshifts wire would use a 33k resistor and down shift wire would use a 56k resistor. Thats it. I use my cruise control switch to do so. All you need is to connect ground to those switches.

5. Gear lever position for ECU: my car has HFM system on it, i know that on standstill and gear lever is on P or N, i cant press the throttle above 4000rpm. once the car is moving, this rpm limit is gone. Before installing the 722.6 tranny, i did quite a research on this and found that there is no direct connection between 722.3 transmission wiring harness to my ECU except the overload switch. I checked on the ETM and cant find anything that would send a gear signal to ECU. On 722.3 tranny, the gear indicator switch only work as a starter lockout and cruise control signal. Thats it. So i installed the 722.6 tranny and did not connect anything to my ECU except for the overload switch. I found that there is no loss of power that i can feel and again when the car is moving the 4000rpm limiter is gone. I guess the computer get a signal from abs speed sensor and release the limiter when the car is moving (not sure about this though but somehow the ECU knows when the car is standstill or moving).

6. Kickdown switch : just connect the kickdown switch to a 12v source and to the controller, set the kickdown at 105 tps and it works just like mb kickdown.

7. TPS : i obtained my tps signal from the throttle body actuator. It has a yellow wire which send a reverse signal on HFM cars. 4.8volts at 0% tps and 0.2 volts at 100% tps. This is very easy to do. just follow the userguide instructions.

8. 3-4 flare : i drill a 4mm hole on the valvebody plate, it helps the shift but there is still a slight flare on high load shifts. You can set the controller to shift when tps below certain point so the flare wont be too noticable.


overall, i love this conversion, it feels much better than my 722.3, however there are still more adjustment needs to bemade such as converter lockup, shift firmness at certain tps and shift quality.
I hope this would help some member to decide wether to do this retrofit or not.
All of above is based on my experience and it could be different on 500E.

 

[Performancesl500]

Has anyone installed the 722.6 to 500e or r129 sl500?

Is the propeller shaft different and also which differential to use?

than i will need a stand alone tcu?

who should we get it from?

There is no 1996-1997 sl500 available here and basically mine is Low mileage car with just 80000 km currently so I have no intentions so swap my car had it from 30,000 km

 

[500AMM]

Has anyone installed the 722.6 to 500e or r129 sl500?

Is the propeller shaft different and also which differential to use?

than i will need a stand alone tcu?

who should we get it from?

There is no 1996-1997 sl500 available here (..is where?) and basically mine is Low mileage car with just 80000 km currently so I have no intentions so swap my car had it from 30,000 km

722.6.. conversion has been discussed many times here, but AFAIK has nobody on this forum done that on a 036. Member Rouven036 has done this on a M117 in a W123. Member whipplem104 has done this on a M104(?) in his W124 and has deep knowledge on this since he is the owner of one of the two aftermarket TCU's available for this. Member pagodino has done a manual conversion on a M119 as well.

I think most of it is covered in this thread and in the additional threads below. In case you like to continue the discussion on a general basis I hope you do that in this particular thread which has the latest updates - just to keep the information compiled and easier to locate later on.

Additional references:

Transmission mods
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1857

722.6.. conversion
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3720

Controllers
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9832

Bellhousing
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2631

 

[AMSw124]

Hi guys,

I know its an old thread but its a great one and I'm going throught the same build on my 1994 E320 Wagon.
Engine and gearbox are in place. Setting up the OfGear wiring and connecting everything. Im just stuck on one
thing, thats the part with the Park Lock Interlock Linkage.

I have the late style plug on my 722.6, part number of the plug is A 140 270 13 65. I went to the dealership today,
after I wrote them an email last week with photos and the same part number for the plug on the box. But they cant
tell which PLIL cable I need since I don't have a chassis number. We went through the system but after 5min they
got more customers and kindly told me to come back with a chassis number. Well I don't have one since its a custom
build.

That's why I would like to ask if there is anyone on this forum who has done this build and might be able to help
with this part number? Referring to the cable. Your help is very much appreciated.

Thank you so much!

Paul

 

[Unavita]

Just seeing these and this string. Having 9 Mercedes from '73- '95 this presents a great many ideas. But that old AMG steering wheel with paddles shift!? First response: that is wicked!

 

[Provet]

Hey guys, following up on those two cluttered topics, Transmission Modifications, Gearbox and Differential Ratio | High-Performance Modifications and Have you seen this? 722.6 interface for older cars. | Transmission and Driveline, i'd like to start a new topic, specifically about fitting these 722.6xx 5 Speed gearboxes into our beloved W124 E500Es. I think this will be my next bigger project for my 500E the next 1-2 years.

To summarize whats needed:
- Gearbox 722.625 from E420/E50 AMG W210 (W5A580). Some Say also the ones from the W/C 140 and R129 do work - lets discuss this here.
- Aftermarket Standalone controller. Currently there are only two that shine out: The Ole Fejer unit, which was specifically made to fit the 722.6 and the more universal PCS TCM-2000 with a 722.6xx harness.
- Some fiddling with cables, electronics, ATF cooling lines, etc.
- Shiftpanel/Shifter-console from late W202 or R171 Series.

I've found this Video on youtube which shows the pros and cons of both units for the 722.6xx use in a W123 chassis:

So i want to get this done, maybe next year after the meet in June or lets see what and when it happens. These gearboxxes are like 150€ of German Ebay. Sure enough a slight overhaul would be needed before putting them into the car. Ole and others recommend to get the clearance at the clutch packs as tight as possible and do a little mod to the valve-body.
I will also try to convice Ole Fejer to join our Forums and help us out. Maybe if there is enough interest, we could get some advantages, like adjustments for the 500E, 6L, 6.xL or SC cars. Or a group buy is also possible.

According to Russell (WhippleM104), the stock main shaft will fit these W210 Gearboxes despite them beeing 1/4 inch (6.4mm) longer than our 722.3xx boxxes.
Also i want the shift indicator like in the Ole Fejer unit, but much smaller to fit them in the stock IC and in amber color. Maybe we can look together for a small digital number unit.

There are still things to discuss here, Inputs that our LH unit in the 500E or the car strongly needs:
- Gear lever position,
- Overload-switch.
- Speed signal for the speedometer. I saw the Ole Jefer unit has outputs for speed that can even be adjusted and directly fires up a E500E/E420 speedo.
- Starter-Lockout switch too.
- How does kickdown switch work? I know that my CL C215 with the later 722.6xx box has full electrical pedal and "kickdown" is just more than 100% Throttleposition.
- Will S/W Switch work like expected?
- Can something solve the 3/4 upshift flare that both standalone TCUs deliver, because there is no Torque Management available with the standalone TCUs?
- Throttle Position? Can these boxes work with our Pedals or do we need an mechanical -> electric converter at the throttle linkage?
- Shut down of the two vacuum-"switches" for the cold-start RPM raise and the E/S Switch in Europe cars.


Some things can be solved with relays, let see what we can come up with.

 

[Provet]

Ive done it, been riding with it for 6 months, best mod ever

 

[Provet]

Tiptronic is nice option and works nice too!

 

[Provet]

TPS sensor. Withe the oLE, i just tapped the rear asr for speed (blue wire)

 

[JoeB]

What transmission crossmember and mount are being used for the 722.6 conversion? Std 500e parts? or the w140 mount? crossmember mod or simply relocation to next set of holes (move captive nuts) ?

 

[Provet]

What transmission crossmember and mount are being used for the 722.6 conversion? Std 500e parts? or the w140 mount? crossmember mod or simply relocation to next set of holes (move captive nuts) ?

I used the original 722.3 crossmember, i had to modify the trans mount by 6mm on each side where it mounts to 722.6 trans and it lined up perfect

 

[JoeB]

I used the original 722.3 crossmember, i had to modify the trans mount by 6mm on each side where it mounts to 722.6 trans and it lined up perfect

So just to be specific, the isolation mount you used was standard 500e 722.3 mount part? or is it the later w140/210etc style (or variant like the w212 which has different mount bolt holes to the crossmember)?
Pics for identification.


If you used the original 500e isolation mount and transmission bracket(A1402400440- item 42 in pic below) from the 722.3 That's fine.

I just need clarification with regards to the mount type and trans bracket used.

This actually may prove more useful than it sounds. Right now I am in the middle of an OM606/722.6 into 124.090, and my previous 716.6 manual behind the m104 in my 124.051 has the later style w140 mount on a 124 717.4 crossmember. The duplicity between the 7226 and the 716.6 rear mount using the w140 style isolation bush may lead to a better solution for my manual box, instead of the isolation bush mods I had to make to get the late style mount to fit the manual box crossmember.
IOTW, a 500e crossmember, mount and bracket with a small mod to the metal bracket may be a better overall solution. (if that is how you achieved your result).

 

[anderzen]

looking into what it would take to do this to a 95' C36... just wanted to say thank you to all the info contributed to this thread! I am no stranger to manual swaps obviously so that would be the more familiar route for me, however, being an M104 base the thought of turbo build down the road has me leaning more towards 722.6 upgrade versus rowing gears myself on this one...

 

[ccrelan]

97 C36 came with 722.6 trans and 3.07 diff

 

[anderzen]

Yep I’m aware

 

[Rouven036]

Or you use any type wa580 unit of the V8's normal or amg's and swap in the M104 Bell housing. But you know that surely. Also to look for one of the later units with a needle bearing instead of the early slide bearings between input/output shafts

 

[Provet]

What transmission crossmember and mount are being used for the 722.6 conversion? Std 500e parts? or the w140 mount? crossmember mod or simply relocation to next set of holes (move captive nuts) ?

I use original mount, but I do remember modification of the transmission rear mount piece