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Installing 722.6 (5-speed automatic transmission) into W124 E500E
Anything is possible given enough time & money.
The question is... what's the benefit of the 722.9 over the 722.6? Unless it's smaller and/or easier to install, the extra 2 gears don't offer any significant benefit.
Correct. Manufacturers do this for emissions and fuel economy. For the hobbyist, if there isn't some advantage with ease of installation / programming / etc, I suspect it would be simpler to stick with the 722.6 which has been used in many conversions over the past 10-15 years.
Disclaimer - I have no clue what is needed to make a 722.9 operate as "standalone", or how the physical size compares to the 722.6, or if it will even fit in a 124 chassis.
I don't know about others on here, but every time I drive a 9G tronic in the current MB models (CLA, GLA, C-Class, E-Class) I always come away stunned how shitty of a transmission it is. I feel it's unrefined, jerky and clunky, something that wouldn't befit a VW, let alone a Mercedes. With everything electric soon, MB transmissions will be a thing of the past soon anyway, but it's a shame that they will go out on this miserable gearbox.
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I read that the 7g-Tronic 722.9 is a huge improvement over the 722.6 in shifting speed and quality. It can downshift 2 gears at once as well as upshift.
However, I do agree that for practical purposes, the 722.6 and all the recent TCU software customizations and tweaking you can do now with that tranmission, its pretty amazing and incredible. You can even add steering wheel Paddle shifting on the 722.6 now! Pretty awesome.
However, I do agree that for practical purposes, the 722.6 and all the recent TCU software customizations and tweaking you can do now with that tranmission, its pretty amazing and incredible. You can even add steering wheel Paddle shifting on the 722.6 now! Pretty awesome.
As a technician I like to keep things simple. I have driven cars with 6 speed manual transmissions and I find anything over 5 gears is just extra things to go wrong and manually shifting over 5 gears is an annoyance to me. All the tech that goes into cars today is to achieve the extra mpg needed to satisfy the EPA mandates for emissions and economy. In the end the consumer pays more for the car and it costs more in the long run to operate. Low tension rings lead to excessive oil consumption unless you are religious about oil changes. More gears in an automatic creates more points of failure and more expense when rebuilds are needed. Direct injection creates carbon deposits requiring intake removal and media blasting the valves. I used to get excited about the emerging technologies but I think we crossed the threshold in the mid 2000’s on cars were they have become disposable when worn out.
Not really. There are plenty of very fast accelerating cars that still use the TH400. There's also a cost to changing gears that can impact performance.I thought more gears would give a faster accelleration. And especially when being in the mid range and upwards, because the engine operates higher up on the torque curve.
It can be compared to doing squats - the deeper you go - the harder it is to raise up.
722.9 is also a pain due to the fact the trans controller is internal with the valve body, it takes detail oriented extraction, shifter from the same car etc to even make it feasible. Then you look at real world performance, yes it shifts faster stock for stock vs. 722.6… but a tuned 722.6 is bulletproof, easy to service and can be tuned to shift hard enough to throw you back in your seat and bang shift like a well dialed vacuum controlled unit from past…
I went down this path recently after acquiring mars red C55 with blown 722.6 (pump seal failed) but ultimately decided to manual swap it. The 722.9 was a thought but quickly realized it’s a novelty type achievement to do and passed. If I were to keep it auto I’d rebuild or grab another 722.6 all day long over a 722.9… my two cents!
I went down this path recently after acquiring mars red C55 with blown 722.6 (pump seal failed) but ultimately decided to manual swap it. The 722.9 was a thought but quickly realized it’s a novelty type achievement to do and passed. If I were to keep it auto I’d rebuild or grab another 722.6 all day long over a 722.9… my two cents!
7G and 9G Gearboxes are shit, Look internet for Problems you can read weeks over weeks.Downshift over 2gears. in wich time ? 21 22 23 and than is shifting.Wobbeling hrash shift . good refresh 5G ist the best bullit Proof Gearbox ever.
And in wich Areas (Speed) you drive .you dont need 7 or 9 gears.From my garage to Highway ist aproxx 500-600meters .7g is shifting up to 3 or gear 4 .Drive slowly..äh??? no way i am a big fan of 5g Tronic
Semper fi 5G-Tronic guys
And in wich Areas (Speed) you drive .you dont need 7 or 9 gears.From my garage to Highway ist aproxx 500-600meters .7g is shifting up to 3 or gear 4 .Drive slowly..äh??? no way i am a big fan of 5g Tronic
Semper fi 5G-Tronic guys
Haven't driven a modern Mercedes with a 722.9 on my end, but on the subject of modern automatics - I have been enjoying the ZF 8HP transmission in my 328d. Keeps the turbo diesel motor right in the power band as it gets up to speed and very smooth for day to day usage.
The ZF 6HP has been a nice slushbox in our truck (LR4), but sadly lacks a drain plug for the torque converter, making it difficult / impossible to replace all the fluid. I'm not crazy about the plastic pan with integrated filter, but there are aftermarket solutions to switch to a metal pan with separate filter.
@dreaming.haze - did the 8hp get a converter drain or did ZF insist on remaining stupid?
Trivia: The 722.6 (aka 5G, or NAG/NAG-1) initially had a converter drain plug for the first 2-3 years of production, but it was phased out by early 1998 USA model year, and there was no drain for the rest of 722.6 production (colossal idiocy on MB's part). Thankfully when MB released the 722.9 (aka 7G-Tronic, or NAG-2) the converter drain came back... but the dipstick tube was eliminated, requiring fluid fill from below with a pump.
Same lack of drain plug for the torque converter on the ZF8HP. I've done the plastic pan + filter replacement at 60k and 120k. Each time I was able to get 3.5-4L out of the 8L sump. So really just doing a partial fluid swap each round. If those aftermarket metal pans + replaceable filters were more reasonable I'd swap to one. For now I am just doing the FCP lifetime warranty on the plastic filter pan + bolts + fluids.
I think it was phased out around the same time the manumatic shifter was put in. I remember my W210 E420 having a torque converter drain but not the W210 E55 which I flushed through the cooling lines.Trivia: The 722.6 (aka 5G, or NAG/NAG-1) initially had a converter drain plug for the first 2-3 years of production, but it was phased out by early 1998 USA model year, and there was no drain for the rest of 722.6 production (colossal idiocy on MB's part). Thankfully when MB released the 722.9 (aka 7G-Tronic, or NAG-2) the converter drain came back... but the dipstick tube was eliminated, requiring fluid fill from below with a pump.
We would be looking for a 722.6 from either a W210 E420, or a W140/R129 with an M119 engine so we should be good.
I'm not a big fan of transmissions with over six gears. My wife's former 2017 Lexus IS350 F-sport had a six-speed autobox, mandated because the car had AWD (the non-AWD IS-F's had an eight-speed autobox). It was very smooth and you could barely tell when it was up or down-shifting.
Our current 2023 Lexus IS500 F-sport, for which AWD is not available, has the near identical eight-speed autobox as the non-AWD IS350. Man that thing is one busy bee of a transmission, and downshifting (when decelerating to slow speed, or a stop, for example), is very clunky. You can not only FEEL the downshifts, you can HEAR them too. Especially to the lowest 2 gears. This is because it is programmed to hold the gears slightly too long.
I would have expected better from Lexus in terms of overall refinement. By the way, the IS500 uses the rather old (2014) Aisin AA80 transmission (Aisin is a subsidiary of Toyota) and the 5-liter 2UR-GSE V-8 engine, which was first introduced in 2007. Proven Toyota technology, but IMHO not quite up to normal Lexus refinement standards, at least in the IS500.
Our current 2023 Lexus IS500 F-sport, for which AWD is not available, has the near identical eight-speed autobox as the non-AWD IS350. Man that thing is one busy bee of a transmission, and downshifting (when decelerating to slow speed, or a stop, for example), is very clunky. You can not only FEEL the downshifts, you can HEAR them too. Especially to the lowest 2 gears. This is because it is programmed to hold the gears slightly too long.
I would have expected better from Lexus in terms of overall refinement. By the way, the IS500 uses the rather old (2014) Aisin AA80 transmission (Aisin is a subsidiary of Toyota) and the 5-liter 2UR-GSE V-8 engine, which was first introduced in 2007. Proven Toyota technology, but IMHO not quite up to normal Lexus refinement standards, at least in the IS500.
Normal drive at 120-150 km/h .Why does you need 9 or 7 gears.Its not required but for save the planet inkl co"2. we need lower rpm and lower fuel consumption and so on.Its only for reduces gas.Repair 5g easy-7 gear only not an Rocket science .9g i dont know. and how long its works??It is possible to repair??
Only the time can say right or wat ever.5g 1995 7g 2005 7g 2013
for our cars is only 5g for interrest.my mind
Only the time can say right or wat ever.5g 1995 7g 2005 7g 2013
for our cars is only 5g for interrest.my mind
The 722.6 is behind my C215 CL65 V12 with two turbo chargers and 604hp. It should be plenty strongYes: The 722.621 was used behind the M120 V12 in the W140/R129.
The 722.6 can take all that power and more!
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It is too bad to hear that the IS500 powertrain is not as smooth as it could be. :-( Not up to their usual standards I suppose.
One of the smoothest powertrains I ever had the pleasure of owning and operating was 1999 w210 E320 with the M112 V6 and the 5-speed automatic transmission. That was so nice.
The 722.6 has proven reliable behind power levels far beyond what most sane people would ever afford to stuff under the hood... levels approaching 4 digits. It's a STRONG gearbox.
I don't know how much power (more specifically, torque) the 722.9 seven-speed/7G can reliably handle.
I think that the 7G or 9G was eventually beefed up in 2015. Until then, MB continued to use the 722.6 in their V12 models.
Correct - the early 7G couldn't handle the V12 torque levels.
Totally agree. My dad's W212 E350 4 MATIC wagon (sorry, S212) has the 7G and feels like it's shifting waaay too much. Even light throttle application on the highway keeping up w traffic has it dropping gears with a reasonable amount of lag. It's pretty annoying. The MPG/performance gain on a post 722.6 trans seems totally not worth it.
Ditto on that. My friends MB Sprinter 3500 loaded to the gills with a White Feather 4WD conversion has the NAG transmission and has done over 100K with regular service.
Changing my 2003 G500 tranny fluid, filter, and conductor plate. Noticed that the torque converter has two plastic covers.
Should I remove them and turn the crank to look for a torque converter plug, or am I wasting time? Anyone know if there is one on a 2003 722.6?
Should I remove them and turn the crank to look for a torque converter plug, or am I wasting time? Anyone know if there is one on a 2003 722.6?
On passenger cars, nothing after about 1998 model year had a converter drain plug on the 722.6 autos.
I don't know if the G-wagen is the same but I'd suspect it also has no drain plug.
I have a 2002 722.6 in my w210 e320. Since there is no torque converter drain plug, I just unscrewed the connection at the radiator ran about 14.9 liters of new ATF through the car.
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While I was diagnosing problems with the 722.3 in my W140, I remembered that I have an engine, transmission and engine control unit (ME2) and transmission control unit (EGS51) from a 1997 S210 E430 in the garage. I probably won't be able to use the TCU, but will have to use the control unit from OFGear.
The gearbox has a 3-point flange. My 722.3 has a 4-point flange. This means that I would have to convert the cardan shaft and the diff to a later W140 S500.
Do the stock W140 722.6 have a 3-point flange?
Would anyone be so kind to send me the VIN of a 722.6 W140 so I can check for parts?
I can buy the bracket for the transmission mount on ebay. It was also available as original.
The selector lever module is still readily available. I would go for the older version here.
What about the transmission bell housing? Is it identical from the screw points (M113 to M119)?
Does the torque converter fit without any problems?
My W140 has ETS (controlled via speed sensors on the drive shafts). Where would I best tap the signal?
There is still the question of the speedometer deviation. My S500 has a gear ratio of 1:2.65. The 1:2.82 from the donor vehicle is identical to the original S420 gear ratio and should not actually cause any problems.
Data from the donor vehicle:
S210 E430 estate
Delivery date: 17.10.1997
Engine: 113940 30 000881
Gearbox: 722623 10 606300
Bell housing: A2102711801
Converter: A1402500602 W5A580
EHS: A1402700606
Differential: A2103503514 1:2.82 (E420, E430, E50?)
The gearbox has a 3-point flange. My 722.3 has a 4-point flange. This means that I would have to convert the cardan shaft and the diff to a later W140 S500.
Do the stock W140 722.6 have a 3-point flange?
Would anyone be so kind to send me the VIN of a 722.6 W140 so I can check for parts?
I can buy the bracket for the transmission mount on ebay. It was also available as original.
The selector lever module is still readily available. I would go for the older version here.
What about the transmission bell housing? Is it identical from the screw points (M113 to M119)?
Does the torque converter fit without any problems?
My W140 has ETS (controlled via speed sensors on the drive shafts). Where would I best tap the signal?
There is still the question of the speedometer deviation. My S500 has a gear ratio of 1:2.65. The 1:2.82 from the donor vehicle is identical to the original S420 gear ratio and should not actually cause any problems.
Data from the donor vehicle:
S210 E430 estate
Delivery date: 17.10.1997
Engine: 113940 30 000881
Gearbox: 722623 10 606300
Bell housing: A2102711801
Converter: A1402500602 W5A580
EHS: A1402700606
Differential: A2103503514 1:2.82 (E420, E430, E50?)
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Pretty good transmission you got there! Sadly I already have the perfect one for my use case.
I’ve come up with a plan on how to tackle this. Seems very easy to be honest.
The most annoying part: I can’t get the M119 bell housing on it‘s own. Need to buy a complete transmission.
I’ve come up with a plan on how to tackle this. Seems very easy to be honest.
The most annoying part: I can’t get the M119 bell housing on it‘s own. Need to buy a complete transmission.
If you look on eBay there is a seller selling a M119 bell housing for a 722.6
Got a link or item number? I tried searching but all I could find for V8 engines were M113 bellhousings.
Keep in mind I’m from Germany. Might kill it with shipping cost
hello, everyone, i would like to seap a 5 speed in to my 500E, wich car should i pull it from, wich would be the best option?
So... I am making progress.
I've already bought a 722.6 fitting from a W210 E420 with the correct M119 bell housing, but they're really rare and expensive.
I decided to go with Ofgear. Ole is very helpful.
Besides needing to find a W140 S420 drive shaft for a car with a stock 722.6 (which is very hard and might require a custom solution), I have two questions:
1. Where should I position the external speed sensor ? Does anyone have any ideas on how to properly fit it? Should look like the picture attached.
2. This one's probably for you, @gsxr: what about the TPS on my LH engine? Where should it be fitted? I need a 5V connection to it. Can I use the connector from the throttle body and splice it? Do you know how many volts the TB outputs, and which cable it would be?
I've already bought a 722.6 fitting from a W210 E420 with the correct M119 bell housing, but they're really rare and expensive.
I decided to go with Ofgear. Ole is very helpful.
Besides needing to find a W140 S420 drive shaft for a car with a stock 722.6 (which is very hard and might require a custom solution), I have two questions:
1. Where should I position the external speed sensor ? Does anyone have any ideas on how to properly fit it? Should look like the picture attached.
2. This one's probably for you, @gsxr: what about the TPS on my LH engine? Where should it be fitted? I need a 5V connection to it. Can I use the connector from the throttle body and splice it? Do you know how many volts the TB outputs, and which cable it would be?
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I'm not sure... this could require some experimentation. You could also move the sensor a bit further back on the driveshaft itself, if there's better clearance behind the trans mount area?
TPS = Throttle Position Sensor? I guess this depends if the signal can be the accelerator pedal position (which might be difficult to obtain), or if it needs to be the actual position of the ETA butterfly, which are different on cars with ASR (however, non-ASR cars have a fixed linkage and the relative positions are the same).
I don't know the voltages for the ETA signal wires, but the wiring diagrams are available in the FSM. You'd need to experiment to figure out which wire to measure, then test the voltage present on that wire throughout throttle movement (with key on, engine off).
Might be M16/1r1?
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