Misfire/rough after sitting

[m00n]

I found post with exactly the same issues like mine. So Base Module failure is very likely.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1722525-can-bus-voltage-values-base-modules.html

 

[m00n]

Heh Today i recieve new base module (used one) but unfortunatelly no changes :/ The same situation :/ But i found new symptom: When put the gas pedal agressive/quickly on idle then car almost die and charge control light is showing up on dashboard. When i do it slowly everything is ok. Charge from alternator is 14.4V Can it be that problem ? I check the codes today again:

Pin 4 - 1 blink - no codes
Pin 6 -
30 - CAN data bus to EA/CC/ISC control module (N4/1), interrupted
32 - CAN data bus to DI control module (N1/3), Left DI control module (N1/4), Right
Pin 7 -
CAN databus:
N4/1,
Message from EA/CC/ISC control module (N4/1) faulty
23 20.0
Message from ABS/ASR control module (N30/1) faulty
23 20.0
Message from LH-SFI control module (N3/1) faulty

I dont know which one becaous is only analog blink codes

14 - Closed throttle position switch (S29/3)

Pin 8 -
6 - A/C electromagnetic clutch (A9k1) jammed or poly-V-belt broken.
8 -
Engine 104, 119:
LH-SFI control module (N3/1) voltage supply, open circuit.
Engine 120:
Right LH-SFI control module (N3/3) voltage supply, open circuit

i am out of ideas :/

 

[gerryvz]

Bad ETA.


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[m00n]

gerryvz - bad eta can cause missfire and engine shutdown ? In my opinion there is somewhere problem with voltage delivery to ECU and CAN Bus does not work properly. I have ETA from 2001 year change with someone in germany i think when the car wa previosly used. The ETA wiring harness is perfect, orginal without carck insulation.

 

[gsxr]

That's a lot of codes, wow. Sounds like a CAN communication issue.

I would also try to solve the S29/3 issue, you can test/adjust this, if it's bad, replace it:
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?1438-Replace-Idle-Switch-S29-3-at-accelerator-pedal

 

[m00n]

oh that is that one switch. I replaced it year ago with orginal oem product :/

 

[gerryvz]

Check your battery & the wire from your battery to the CAN box & your computers within.


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[m00n]

battery is one year old bosch silver s5 100ah, how can i check wires from battery to can box ?

 

[gerryvz]

It's the smaller wire that attaches to the + battery terminal. Supplies all electricity directly to the CAN box. Make sure it is tightly secured to the + terminal.


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[m00n]

I checked this wire connectef to +terminal and everything seems to be ok. No idea what next :/ I made some movies (poor quality)
1) Cold start and at the end of movie i press hard accelaration pedal on idle and engine almost died and charging light show on dahsboard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nSCkNkHqfQ
2) Problems with blinkg codes from pin 4. If you loook carefully on that video you will see only quick single microsecond blink. Sometimes work properly and blinking normally. I think is voltage delivery problem to pin 4 or LH module broken. On others pins eveything is ok.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkNSu8hsjRE

 

[emerydc8]

In that last video, the engine was running when you checked the codes. I've never checked the codes with the engine running, so I don't know what kind of result you should get. Is it the same with the engine off and the key on?

The screeching engine sounds horrible though; almost like it is something mechanical.

 

[m00n]

yes the same situation when engine is off and ignition on. Engine was running becouse i wait for warm up. This sound is pulley or bearing. With belt off its absolutelly silence

 

[m00n]

Guys i have the answer from comments in that great article
http://www.picoauto.com/tutorials/mercedes-misfire.html?enews=a110301

Pico: Temperature will affect the performance of High voltage insulation and so your symptom most certainly matches this case study. How does your vehicle perform when cold in terms of load? Can the vehicle be accelerated under WOT with no misfire or backfire? Electrical loading can also highlight poor insulation issues. An insulation tester may also prove if your rotor has suffered an internal failure once at the failed operating temperature. Have you been able to capture the primary and secondary waveforms during cranking as with the above case study? Mechanical issues must also be checked as multiple tight valve clearances (Exhaust) would give you compression failure when hot and of course backfire. ​

Is really can be a exhaust valves ? How to check it ?

 

[gsxr]

Valve clearance is automatic on these engines via hydraulic followers. It is extremely unlikely that is an issue, unless you had compression problems on one or more cylinders.

Besides, that would not explain all the CAN communication error codes you are receiving.

 

[m00n]

IS it possible that hydraulic lifters are bad ? The car have almost 400 000 km maybe its time to change lifters and look inside the heads ? In this saturady i willl do some tests:

- Charge the acumulator to max and pull of the belt. Then i can elminate charging issues for moment car will run withou belt and charging with lower but stable voltage.
- Clean and inspect caps and rotors then run car and wait for issues come back
- Check another time fuel pressure
- Check compression on hot engine

 

[m00n]

So ...
The problem is resolved. It was distribution caps and moisture inside. Photo:
http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=c9fbe54d179e2dc8
I changed all my ignition parts 1.5 year ago. So i dont suspect it. The sad truth is: i became tricked. The caps are not from beru. It's something noname withou any trademarks and other marks so its bogus part :/
Here rotor photo
http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=f9e79c29aea02afe
This summer i will change it and buy bosch one or in dealer.
Great thanks for everyone.

 

[clarkz71]

Hope you don't mind, I resized these so they're easier to view.


.

 

[gerryvz]

Thanks to all for the update & the photo post !

 

[m00n]

Guys one more question:
What brand of distributor caps and rotor will be fine ? I will never buy a beru, bosch also dont have good opinion last years. Bremi or dealer ? I want do it once and not coming back to topic.

 

[clarkz71]

Guys one more question:
What brand of distributor caps and rotor will be fine ? I will never buy a beru, bosch also dont have good opinion last years. Bremi or dealer ?

parts.com (dealer) or Bremi.

I purchased Bremi from a seller on e-bay 2 years ago. He still sells cap/rotor package for $188 I believe.

Or there are a few online parts distributers for Bremi like Karlyn STI,


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-40...Parts_Accessories&hash=item5660bfb2d4&vxp=mtr

 

[Trae]

This page might help.

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...-Quality-List&highlight=parts+vendor/producer

 

[gerryvz]

Yes, if you can get Bremi caps, they are fine to use. Your best bet on an M119 cap is likely going to be AutohauZ or Amazon, or if you want factory, parts.com or the MB Classic Center.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[clarkz71]

This page might help.

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...-Quality-List&highlight=parts+vendor/producer

From the above list.................

 

[500AMM]

Guys one more question:
What brand of distributor caps and rotor will be fine ? I will never buy a beru, bosch also dont have good opinion last years. Bremi or dealer ? I want do it once and not coming back to topic.

Glad to see you solved the problem.
But I'm afraid you won't get rid of the issue once and for all. The "Caps & Rotor syndrome" on these engines is a recurrent issue. You can consider those items as consumer commodity with frequent replacement independent of mileage, but due to climate, storage conditions and how often you drive the car.

I live in Norway and drive the cars randomly and the issue keeps coming back so I got used to it. Especially when the contact points in the caps get burnt - which they do from day one - but gradually it get worse and so do the moisture build up.

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...w-to-take-them-out-HELP&highlight=rotor+bolts


-a-

 

[m00n]

Glad to see you solved the problem.
But I'm afraid you won't get rid of the issue once and for all. The "Caps & Rotor syndrome" on these engines is a recurrent issue. You can consider those items as consumer commodity with frequent replacement independent of mileage, but due to climate, storage conditions and how often you drive the car.

I live in Norway and drive the cars randomly and the issue keeps coming back so I got used to it. Especially when the contact points in the caps get burnt - which they do from day one - but gradually it get worse and so do the moisture build up.

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...w-to-take-them-out-HELP&highlight=rotor+bolts


-a-

Great post ! I have to read it very carefully and do everything to make it working. I am also thinking about moisture problem and it can be leaking seal from camshaft behind the rotor. I changed thi seals when i did timing chain job but oil is still there and going to caps :/

 

[ozroadster]

Hi there and Greetings.
I have read this whole thread: a small novel! but so helpful because it has an answer and everyone has stayed with it. I have the M119.067 in an R129 (1993) but problem sounded exactly the same as gsxr and mOOn. All the false leads were so interesting and saved me going there. In my case it was one distributor cap but on first inspection it was perfect. After removing and refitting the cap the problem in fact got worse... which led me accidentally to the answer. i think the old bakelite weakened enough that after the third refit and tightening it gave itself away: totally rough idle and no power. And then there was the little carbonised trail running between two points in the cap roof!
My learning? Read a lot online. Start with the basic things and don't trust 20+ year old bakelite: it gets friable. Next job for me is the bakelite 'cups' and the other cap and rotor. (Also cam seals)
Thanks to all the people who shone light on this problem.
Ozroadster

 

[500AMM]

Hi there and Greetings.
I have read this whole thread: a small novel! but so helpful because it has an answer and everyone has stayed with it. I have the M119.067 in an R129 (1993) but problem sounded exactly the same as gsxr and mOOn. All the false leads were so interesting and saved me going there. In my case it was one distributor cap but on first inspection it was perfect. After removing and refitting the cap the problem in fact got worse... which led me accidentally to the answer. i think the old bakelite weakened enough that after the third refit and tightening it gave itself away: totally rough idle and no power. And then there was the little carbonised trail running between two points in the cap roof!
My learning? Read a lot online. Start with the basic things and don't trust 20+ year old bakelite: it gets friable. Next job for me is the bakelite 'cups' and the other cap and rotor. (Also cam seals)
Thanks to all the people who shone light on this problem.
Ozroadster

Yes, that bakelite is a fragile material prone to cracking. On time I noticed one of the plugwire terminal was cracked and come loose?! The cover was brand new and in order prior to and after installation, but at the next inspection it was broken, so don't ask me how it happened. :?:

-a-

 

[Stevester 500E]

I would be very interested in knowing which codes came back after the problem was resolved.
I believe I have an ignition related problem and my car is throwing a fair amount of codes.
It's interesting that bad caps, rotors, and or insulators can cause Can data bus errors.

So ...
The problem is resolved. It was distribution caps and moisture inside. Photo:
http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=c9fbe54d179e2dc8
I changed all my ignition parts 1.5 year ago. So i dont suspect it. The sad truth is: i became tricked. The caps are not from beru. It's something noname withou any trademarks and other marks so its bogus part :/
Here rotor photo
http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=f9e79c29aea02afe
This summer i will change it and buy bosch one or in dealer.
Great thanks for everyone.

 

[gsxr]

It's interesting that bad caps, rotors, and or insulators can cause Can data bus errors.

I don't think the ignition problems were the source of the CAN errors he was experiencing... pretty sure that was a separate issue.

 

[migwell2]

Hi 500e fans,
I have a similar problem with mine. I still use twice per year, after 6 months or one year sitting. It starts up every time good, but misfire / rough comes just after with pops/bang. After cooling down, it works good with no misfire and full power. Is anybody could explain this ? I think it's ECU advance ignition problem needing learning. Too I have to change the catalyst exhaust. Maybe there's a link with this and a bad learning.

 

[gerryvz]

Please use the forum search capability. Your problem is documented in dozens of threads.

Here is a place to start.

Misfire/rough after sitting | Troubleshooting and Diagnostics

Gentlemen, A friend's 1993 500E, with high mileage, has this problem: After sitting for a week or more, the car starts fine, runs well for about a minute, then starts to misfire and run rough. After a freeway drive, it returns to good running operation. The mechanic checked fuel and...

www.500eboard.co

M119 engine coughs, stutters, backfires, won't rev | M119 Engine

We have acquired my in law 1995 E420 with only 54k on the clock. Several months ago, I changed oil, brake fluid, installed new pads & rotors, replaced 12 year old Michelins, fuel filter and caps/rotors ...car ran great, 23mpg highway. After sitting for about 3 weeks, it made it about 2 miles and...

www.500eboard.co

FYI - Essential M119 Ignition "Tune Up" mods [Distributor cap vent / slot] | M119 Engine

Hi all, I have been meaning to address this on my little used 500E for years.... it is a problem I myself recognised about 5 years ago when I first looked at an m119 distributer cap..... Compare to any other distributor cap of the era such as an m104 and you will see there are NO ventilation...

www.500eboard.co

There are many many more threads on your problem.

 

[migwell2]

Please use the forum search capability. Your problem is documented in dozens of threads.

Here is a place to start.

Misfire/rough after sitting | Troubleshooting and Diagnostics

Gentlemen, A friend's 1993 500E, with high mileage, has this problem: After sitting for a week or more, the car starts fine, runs well for about a minute, then starts to misfire and run rough. After a freeway drive, it returns to good running operation. The mechanic checked fuel and...

www.500eboard.co

M119 engine coughs, stutters, backfires, won't rev | M119 Engine

We have acquired my in law 1995 E420 with only 54k on the clock. Several months ago, I changed oil, brake fluid, installed new pads & rotors, replaced 12 year old Michelins, fuel filter and caps/rotors ...car ran great, 23mpg highway. After sitting for about 3 weeks, it made it about 2 miles and...

www.500eboard.co

FYI - Essential M119 Ignition "Tune Up" mods [Distributor cap vent / slot] | M119 Engine

Hi all, I have been meaning to address this on my little used 500E for years.... it is a problem I myself recognised about 5 years ago when I first looked at an m119 distributer cap..... Compare to any other distributor cap of the era such as an m104 and you will see there are NO ventilation...

www.500eboard.co

There are many many more threads on your problem.

My problem disappear each time I use the car. It's only occur after long sitting, and disappear. I have read many topic about misfire. I'm looking for an explanation not a fix, because the car works fine.

 

[gsxr]

My problem disappear each time I use the car. It's only occur after long sitting, and disappear. I have read many topic about misfire. I'm looking for an explanation not a fix, because the car works fine.

The fix is self-explanatory. It's related to secondary ignition issues at the distributors. The answers you want are in the threads Gerry linked above.

 

[gerryvz]

My problem disappear each time I use the car. It's only occur after long sitting, and disappear. I have read many topic about misfire. I'm looking for an explanation not a fix, because the car works fine.

The explanation is in the HOW-TO thread I linked above, and has to do with moisture being trapped and not properly vented inside the distributor caps and in the insulator area behind the distributors.

An increasing number of people here on this forum have performed the "cut additional ventilation slots into distributor caps" fix, and every single person who has done this reports that the issues have disappeared after they did it.

I recommend you do it too. It's a well documented problem with the M119, especially in damp climates and with cars that go periods of weeks or longer between drives.