M119 manual conversion kit....

[Jimbo]

Pretty cool if someone desires to row :

MANUAL coversion KIT for Mercedes m119 / M117 Engines - The Kangaroos Team

Product details: This kit fits all m119, and aluminium block m117 engines!!! You will receive: - Billet aluminium adaptor flange - Cro-Mo flywheel for 240 and 260mm discs - ceramic/organic friction disc - new pressure plate - 2 bearings for the crankshaft - bolt kit for the flange - bolt kit for...

www.thekangaroosteam.com

 

[Glen]

Very tempting, I've always wanted to put a manual trans in mine.

 

[Jimbo]

Me too Glen, especially now that reverse is starting to get slow engagement on my old dawg.

 

[Glen]

Me too Glen, especially now that reverse is starting to get slow engagement on my old dawg.

You do it first

 

[Duh_Vinci]

If I only had the time and extra space... Would love to do the conversion like this, specially since R129 with "dodgy" gearboxes can be purchased for next to nothing! Good find indeed!

 

[liviu165]

After the manual transmission is installed using their kit, I wonder if the original propeller shaft will fit anymore, or it would have lengthened/shortened? A shaft for the W126 is not that hard to find in order to modify it (I think 420SEL and 560SEL use the same prop shaft), but the one for the C126 is harder to find.

Anyway, manual transmission is a nice idea, my DD is a stick shift and there is nothing like the pleasure of driving with a manual transmission.

 

[JC220]

After the manual transmission is installed using their kit, I wonder if the original propeller shaft will fit anymore, or it would have lengthened/shortened? A shaft for the W126 is not that hard to find in order to modify it (I think 420SEL and 560SEL use the same prop shaft), but the one for the C126 is harder to find.

Anyway, manual transmission is a nice idea, my DD is a stick shift and there is nothing like the pleasure of driving with a manual transmission.

Yes almost always the propshaft will require changing out. I have them re-made by a specialist locally who can lathe off the old tube, insert a new single section to correct length and spec, weld and balance the assembly.

However the big thing that puts me off manual transmissions in w124s etc is there is no handbrake!! There is a foot operated parking brake of course but in practice it never feels right. I had a manual w124 which I converted to Auto mostly for this reason.

You only understand if you've driven a manual w124 and carried out several hill starts which is a bit of a faff. Whereas the w201 DOES have a handbrake for example since many of those were manual/ low spec.

 

[Duh_Vinci]

Yes almost always the propshaft will require changing out. I have them re-made by a specialist locally who can lathe off the old tube, insert a new single section to correct length and spec, weld and balance the assembly.

However the big thing that puts me off manual transmissions in w124s etc is there is no handbrake!! There is a foot brake of course but in practice it never feels right. I had a manual w124 which I converted to Auto mostly for this reason.

You only understand if you've driven a manual w124 and carried out several hill starts which is a bit of a faff. Whereas the w201 DOES have a handbrake for example since many of those were manual/ low spec.

Never even thought about that! That would be a little awkward to operate foot brake on up hill!

 

[JC220]

Not to mention the parking brake in w124s is inherently crap!! It is designed predominantly with automatic transmissions in mind in that respect also.

Therefore if doing a manual transmission plan on full new parking brake system and maintaining it precisely so you can rely on it to hold the weight of the car on a hill start.

 

[liviu165]

However the big thing that puts me off manual transmissions in w124s etc is there is no handbrake!! There is a foot brake of course but in practice it never feels right. I had a manual w124 which I converted to Auto mostly for this reason.

Yes, I agree that it could feel a bit awkward for some but that is mostly because we (as human beings) got used to do things only one way as a second nature. This is just one of those examples. Many times when I come to a stop light that takes a long time to give me green light and I happen to be driving a car with auto transmission, I pull the parking brake and then switch it to Neutral (various reasons that are not relevant now). When green turns on I move the shifter to Drive and a moment later (when I sense it wants "to pull") I release the brake too. Easy peasy!!

@Duh_Vinci : Actually using the footbrake up hill is a lot of fun! My wife was annoyed by that when we had the suburban and I was doing it, which made me doing it more often. You should try it up hill too, once you master it will be fun, seriously. I still do it sometimes with my SEC or SEL. I love that "CLUNK" sound the handle does it when is released and immediately the car starts moving.

 

[JC220]

Yes, I agree that it could feel a bit awkward for some but that is mostly because we (as human beings) got used to do things only one way as a second nature. This is just one of those examples. Many times when I come to a stop light that takes a long time to give me green light and I happen to be driving a car with auto transmission, I pull the parking brake and then switch it to Neutral (various reasons that are not relevant now). When green turns on I move the shifter to Drive and a moment later (when I sense it wants "to pull") I release the brake too. Easy peasy!!

@Duh_Vinci : Actually using the footbrake up hill is a lot of fun! My wife was annoyed by that when we had the suburban and I was doing it, which made me doing it more often. You should try it up hill too, once you master it will be fun, seriously. I still do it sometimes with my SEC or SEL. I love that "CLUNK" sound the handle does it when is released and immediately the car starts moving.

Respectfully- not the same thing! An automatic will not try to nail the car behind if you let off the brake.

Here is a summary - I have alot of seat time in a manual w124. Our 200 was manual and in family since 1987. Any "newbie" getting into it like a mechanic etc had to have instructions on how to drive her and always had a puzzled look at the no handbrake situation.

Hill start;

1: Gear down, depress clutch and pop into neutral as you pull up - using service brake.
2: When stopped hold service brake pedal firmly and release clutch pedal to apply the parking brake.
3: Release service brake pedal ensuring the car holds. It will creak alot of the time as the weight shifts onto the parking shoes.
4: Wait.
5: Depress clutch, put into 1st gear and simultaneously apply throttle, take up clutch and pull the parking brake release. This is the tricky bit and is where newbies get caught out. You will usually either stall and / or roll backwards first time due to the instant release of the parking brake. (Whereas you can better control and feel a handbrake release)

Its arse about face frankly but I had it down to a fine art. Always nervous when someone else drove it however!!

On not so steep inclines or normal grades you can take off again without parking brake application with experience.

Manual w124 is a great idea for a track car! 722.6 with tuneable ECU / paddle shifters better option for road use upgrade IMO

 

[liviu165]

I don't want to start a debate that would have nothing to do with the main subject at hand. I get your point and I respect it. I usually see (and sometimes do too) things differently than others. That's just the way I am.

 

[Sam]

Hello!
I havent been on the forum for a while and just found this topic.
Im currently doing manual conversion to my 400E with the kangaroos team kit.

 

[Jimbo]

Tell us how it all goes !!

 

[Sam]

Tell us how it all goes !!

Im at the moment sorting out bigger issue. Gearbox sits too low, it hits the driveshaft tunnel too early if lifted.
I either need to modify the tunnel (bottom of the blower motor box portion where the rain water falls to ground) or cut the clutch housing or both.

The kangaroos team wasnt aware off this and they said that they never had to cut or modify the tunnel.

But they said that my car might be the first factory fitted M119 with this gearbox/conversion now.

All conversions they/their customers have made were M102/M103 engined cars from factory and then swapped with M119 and manual.

 

[Sam]

Some other things that needs work:

-Clutch housing needs to be cut from two places, from the starter and cps (Done)

-Driveshaft front section needs to be ~5cm/2inch longer (Done, couldnt find ready part so i took the driveshaft to a shop and they lengthened it and balanced)

- Trans support bracket needs to be changed/modificated (Under process, bought few different shaped brackets and start working from one off those)

-Clutch reservoir and master cylinder feed line (Done, i changed whole reservoir because i had one spare from manual car. You can also just cut the nipple from the old)

- Manual pedals (Done)

-Clutch line/hose from master cylinder to slave cylinder. (Under process, w124 master cylinder has M12 thread and this gearbox slave cylinder has M10)

-Mounting for the gear lever and enlargening the tunnel hole for gear lever + center console/interior.

-Electrical work: NSS, Reverse light switch, signal for speedo, microswitch to the clutch pedal for the cruise??

 

[Jimbo]

Thanks Sam! Great info.

It's odd, to me, that converting a M119 into a manual for a W124 that had a 6 cylinder didn't need any modification to the tunnel; and your factory M119 car does.

 

[outrbnks]

Respectfully- not the same thing! An automatic will not try to nail the car behind if you let off the brake.

Here is a summary - I have alot of seat time in a manual w124. Our 200 was manual and in family since 1987. Any "newbie" getting into it like a mechanic etc had to have instructions on how to drive her and always had a puzzled look at the no handbrake situation.

Hill start;

1: Gear down, depress clutch and pop into neutral as you pull up - using service brake.
2: When stopped hold service brake pedal firmly and release clutch pedal to apply the parking brake.
3: Release service brake pedal ensuring the car holds. It will creak alot of the time as the weight shifts onto the parking shoes.
4: Wait.
5: Depress clutch, put into 1st gear and simultaneously apply throttle, take up clutch and pull the parking brake release. This is the tricky bit and is where newbies get caught out. You will usually either stall and / or roll backwards first time due to the instant release of the parking brake. (Whereas you can better control and feel a handbrake release)

Its arse about face frankly but I had it down to a fine art. Always nervous when someone else drove it however!!

On not so steep inclines or normal grades you can take off again without parking brake application with experience.

Manual w124 is a great idea for a track car! 722.6 with tuneable ECU / paddle shifters better option for road use upgrade IMO

I hate to admit it, but I'm old enough to admit leaning to drive, (in our mostly very hilly Hudson valley here), so long ago that automatic transmissions were an option many people didn't get.

So I learned to drive on a manual transmission car, an old Plymouth station wagon with a Flathead 6, 3 on the tree, and the emergency brake was an under dash mounted pull handle. I do remember using the emergency brake while leaning to drive, but virtually no one used their emergency brakes to assist starting up on a hill after you became experienced at using a clutch.

The drivers test course had a steep hill stop sign, and I believe you were allowed 3 inches rollback max on the startup or you failed. I do miss a manual shift car, and I bet I could hop in any manual shift car, and after 2 minutes getting used to the feel of the clutch, I could navigate any hilly stop sign with ease, and without even a thought of needing an emergency brake.

I also drove motorcycles for years, no emergency brakes on them. My favorite was a 1970 Triumph 650 Bonneville, bought it brand new direct from England as the USA shops couldn't get any for a reason I can't remember. So I had the only English version Triumph I've ever seen, (5 gal tank, TT bars, and lower compression), loved it and drove it for years... never any problems with hill stop-sign startups... emergency brakes are like training wheels on a kids bike..... Everyone should learn to drive on a manual transmission car.. my 2 cents. I'd like to have one of my cars as a manual, not all of them, just one to have fun with...

This kangaroo kit is a tempting option for our 94 E420.. I do miss my 67 vett coupe with the 327/350 and the muncie 4-speed...fun times, why the hell did I sell that one???

 

[vatc5637]

Looking at the lists of members "other" cars they own, I suspect that many of them were acquired for just that purpose . . . "ahem" to preserve those manual transmission driving skills . . . .

 

[Sam]

Thanks Sam! Great info.

It's odd, to me, that converting a M119 into a manual for a W124 that had a 6 cylinder didn't need any modification to the tunnel; and your factory M119 car does.

Yeah i find it odd too.
Here is screenshot how he replied:

 

[JC220]

I hate to admit it, but I'm old enough to admit leaning to drive, (in our mostly very hilly Hudson valley here), so long ago that automatic transmissions were an option many people didn't get.

So I learned to drive on a manual transmission car, an old Plymouth station wagon with a Flathead 6, 3 on the tree, and the emergency brake was an under dash mounted pull handle. I do remember using the emergency brake while leaning to drive, but virtually no one used their emergency brakes to assist starting up on a hill after you became experienced at using a clutch.

The drivers test course had a steep hill stop sign, and I believe you were allowed 3 inches rollback max on the startup or you failed. I do miss a manual shift car, and I bet I could hop in any manual shift car, and after 2 minutes getting used to the feel of the clutch, I could navigate any hilly stop sign with ease, and without even a thought of needing an emergency brake.

I also drove motorcycles for years, no emergency brakes on them. My favorite was a 1970 Triumph 650 Bonneville, bought it brand new direct from England as the USA shops couldn't get any for a reason I can't remember. So I had the only English version Triumph I've ever seen, (5 gal tank, TT bars, and lower compression), loved it and drove it for years... never any problems with hill stop-sign startups... emergency brakes are like training wheels on a kids bike..... Everyone should learn to drive on a manual transmission car.. my 2 cents. I'd like to have one of my cars as a manual, not all of them, just one to have fun with...

This kangaroo kit is a tempting option for our 94 E420.. I do miss my 67 vett coupe with the 327/350 and the muncie 4-speed...fun times, why the hell did I sell that one???

True on the hill start with clutch only onna car with decent torque.... a m102 w124 has no torque to speak of and hence loves to jerk wildly or plain stall out when out under load at low RPMs. Hence why a 3.6 AMG lump was dropped in and auto box.

 

[alabbasi]

Is the M119 and M113 transmission bolt pattern different? I always assumed that the 6 speed used behind the M112 would bolt right up.

 

[gsxr]

I always assumed that the 6 speed used behind the M112 would bolt right up.

Even if it bolts up... will an M112 six-cylinder transmission handle V8 torque?

 

[alabbasi]

Even if it bolts up... will an M112 six-cylinder transmission handle V8 torque?

It went behind the Crossfire SRT and some diesels in Europe so it should be fine. Are you still drag racing at your age?

 

[Glen]

Is the M119 and M113 transmission bolt pattern different? I always assumed that the 6 speed used behind the M112 would bolt right up.

Nope, different bolt pattern.

 

[gsxr]

It went behind the Crossfire SRT and some diesels in Europe so it should be fine.

The Crossfire SRT engine produced 310 lb-ft, so the trans would be fine with a 4.2L M119, and might live behind a stock 5.0L. Would be interesting to see the rating for that particular trans.

Are you still drag racing at your age?

Yep! Well not last year (thanks, COVID) but we still plan to race when the virus fades out. The wife won a track championship in the Outlaw Street class for the 2019 season with the E63 P30.

 

[Sam]

The Crossfire SRT engine produced 310 lb-ft, so the trans would be fine with a 4.2L M119, and might live behind a stock 5.0L. Would be interesting to see the rating for that particular trans.

The trans from crossfire is 716.661 (if Ebay can be trusted) its nsg400 so its rated for 400Nm (295 lb-ft). This is the strongest in the series of 716.6xx

Box what i use on my project is 716.651 this is from w203 220cdi its nsg370 so its rated to 370nm (273 lb-ft) this is the second strongest.


But AFAIK this Nm rating is for continuos torque and these can take lot more for short time/peak.

Its proven that these can take a lot more but, i have heard that big BMW boxes are more robust.

 

[alabbasi]

But AFAIK this Nm rating is for continuos torque and these can take lot more for short time/peak.

I expect that you're right. The AMG cars of the 80's, along with BMW's, Jaguars all used the Getrag 265 on cars making much more power

 

[Rouven036]

716s usually lose some teeth at 600Nm plus pushed by om603/6/12 turbo diesels or m104 turbos. But that is also greatly affected by how they are (ab-)used and how much traction the car has (sticky tires, tire width, wheel diameter).

 

[Sam]

Some progress on my project.

The gearbox wasnt sitting high enough and hitted the tunnel way too early when rised, so i had to do something.

I decided i rather cut the gearbox to make more room than the car/tunnel.

Here is some pictures:
-1 is the place where the gearbox hits, you either need to cut this or the gearbox.
-2 gearbox with the cut i made
-3 test fitting, everything seems okay now!

 

[Sam]

More test fitting.

Clutch line and reverse light wiring also done now.

 

[Sam]

Some progress.
Trans mounting bracket welded, grinded and sand blasted. Ready for paint.

I made the mount mixing w203 manual mount and w123 or w124 (im not certain) mount.
I cut the center part off w203 mount that has the correct shape for the bushing and welded it to that other mount.
Also needed to weld small bits to line up the two other mounting bolts.

 

[500AMM]

Im at the moment sorting out bigger issue. Gearbox sits too low, it hits the driveshaft tunnel too early if lifted.
I either need to modify the tunnel (bottom of the blower motor box portion where the rain water falls to ground) or cut the clutch housing or both.

The kangaroos team wasnt aware off this and they said that they never had to cut or modify the tunnel.

But they said that my car might be the first factory fitted M119 with this gearbox/conversion now.

All conversions they/their customers have made were M102/M103 engined cars from factory and then swapped with M119 and manual.

My first 036 was a 500TE which was a converted 230TE. Out of curiosity I contacted the workshop who built the car and they told they fitted the wider 036 cardan column due to space restrictions. For many years I thought it was due to interference with the transmission bell housing or engine, but that's not entirely correct. Another Norwegian did the same conversion some years ago with an E420 engine, and he told it wasn't any space problem inside the cardan column. It was tight yes, but IIRC just minor adjustments were needed but not on the body part. But the main reason for a wider cardan column on the W124 V8 models was to fit dual catalytic converters. So the cardan column has a different shape for housing dual cats, but it may be differences in other areas as well. Maybe that is the reason for the problems when fitting that particular transmission?
...just my thoughts.

 

[Sam]

Change in plans regarding shifter, some people wont like this...

It was easier to fit this floor mounted shifter and it feels so much better in my opinion.
Lot shorter throw and its not so loose and wobbly like the oem (which you cant even get new bushings as a separate part...)
Downside is there is no lock for reverse but i can live with that and also i think that could be made (or you can get those floor shifters with reverse lock, theyre just not cheap)

 

[500AMM]

Wow, that was a tall stick, or will it be shortened later on?
.

 

[Bogeyman]

Stick is an apt description for that...

 

[Sam]

Wow, that was a tall stick, or will it be shortened later on?
.

Will see, its a bit taller that i had wanted also.

But if some of you are considering this manual conversion you can use the oem mercedes shifter no problem.

This car is already "ruined" as some may think, it has a lot aftermarket stuff and as a reminder this is just 400E not E500E so no harm done

Im making it to a car that i could take to some track days just for fun.

When i finish this transmission conversion next job will be bucket seats, because those oem seats doesnt offer any side support so you are all over the cabin holding on the steering wheel when cornering hard.
Also for the weight saving.

 

[500AMM]

A track rat sounds nice and I guess a taller shift stick may be better in that case. Are you going to boost it a bit? Although not a simple task with the totally blocked off Bosch LH with no way to alter ignition timing, so you have to decomp the engine. The first supercharged 500E here in Norway was done with stock Bosch LH and no decomp, and it didn't last long before one of the head gaskets was blown, even at a pretty low boost IIRC.

 

[gsxr]

A track rat sound nice and I guess a taller shift stick may be better in that case. Are you going to boost it a bit? Although not a simple task with the totally blocked off Bosch LH with no way to alter ignition timing, so you have to decomp the engine. The first supercharged 500E here in Norway was done with stock Bosch LH and no decomp, and it didn't last long before one of the head gaskets was blown, even at a pretty low boost IIRC.

Arnt, do you mean there's no way to alter ignition timing adequately? Different trim plugs on the EZL will reduce timing advance by fixed amounts, but that probably won't help much with forced induction.

Meanwhile, other people claim that high-compression engines (10.0-11.0) work fine with even high-boost (say, 1.0 bar) applications, if modern engine management is used in place of the old Bosch stuff. I'm not entirely convinced the M119 would do well unless the head gaskets were upgraded, either MLS or possibly notching the block or head for O-rings at each cylinder.

 

[500AMM]

Dave, I have no numbers and detail information on what they actually did with the engine. I spoke to the workshop who did the supercharging and they said this was a one-off task for them, and surprisingly they've kept almost no records on it?! That engine was rebuilt by them after the breakdown, to E60 AMG specs with low comp pistons and they replaced the supercharger with an ASA charger. I contaced them again about the ASA set-up and asked for any templates on the brackets & hardware, but they haven't kept that either. Go figure IMHO.

@Sam, excuse me for being off-topic, but take it as an inspiration.

 

[Sam]

Tomorrow will be test drive day

 

[Sam]

A track rat sounds nice and I guess a taller shift stick may be better in that case. Are you going to boost it a bit? Although not a simple task with the totally blocked off Bosch LH with no way to alter ignition timing, so you have to decomp the engine. The first supercharged 500E here in Norway was done with stock Bosch LH and no decomp, and it didn't last long before one of the head gaskets was blown, even at a pretty low boost IIRC.

About boosting answer is in the picture

But dont know yet when i get the Albrex ready for action, for now its just hanging there and only oil circulating through it .
Maybe i will try it later this summer with oem LH + E85 + small boost + other small mods.

If i cant get it to work that way at all then its the next winter project to put VEMS ecu with full sequential injection and sequential ignition because for now i want to just drive

 

[Sam]

Hello.
After two days off test driving i can tell you that everything seems to work as it should (atleast so far).

I really like the car with that manual box and the shifts are very crisp with that shifter.

I think fuel economy will also improve a lot, now when im driving highway 120kmh/75mph with 6th gear the rpms are only some 2200-2300.
With 722.3 autobox rpms were ~3500 when driving 120kmh/75mph. (i have 2.82 diff installed)

I also made and installed polyurethane motor mounts and trans mount.
So there is a downside that the driveline noises are now coming to cabin (the floor mounted shifter also affects this or it could be the main reason), im thinking to put some extra noise insulation.

 

[gsxr]

I am curious about the fuel economy difference. Despite the large reduction in RPM's, I'd be surprised if you see more than a ~10% improvement. MPG is not directly proportional to RPM.

 

[Sam]

I am curious about the fuel economy difference. Despite the large reduction in RPM's, I'd be surprised if you see more than a ~10% improvement. MPG is not directly proportional to RPM.

I will report later.

First i need to do some adjustments with my Dakota digital sgi5e.
I took the signal from rear abs sensor to Dakota but now speedo is showing way more than what it really is and Dakota is adjusted to minimum.
Need to change output pin and adjust it again.

 

[Sam]

Speedo is working now and i have calculated the consumption for first 340km/210miles and it consumed only 50L off E85 Ethanol!
So 14.7L per 100km or 16Mpg.
I was driving mixed roads/urban.
Last year with 722.3 mixed/urban it consumed some 18-20L/100km or 13-11.5Mpg off Ethanol.
I could get 15L/100km or 16Mpg only on the hiqhway last year.

I was supposed to do the consumption tests first on gasoline but it is so expensive (98octane is 1.8€/L or 6.81€ per gallon and government are raising the prices some 0.1€/L soon...) here so i filled the tank with Ethanol. (Flexfuel box fitted)

Last year with 722.3 and 98octane i could get
14-15L/100km or 17-15.5Mpg mixed/urban or 11L/100km or 21.5Mpg on highway.

I have the bigger 90L tank fitted so i think that on the highway i have pretty good range

 

[anderzen]

Hi @Sam,

Thank you so much for all the info you provided in this thread. Very helpful!!!
I am planning on going down the same path as you with the 716.651 gearbox and KT adapter kit. Would love to connect if you happen to see this since it looks like I am not able to send you a PM.
I have manual swapped my C55 AMG so I have an idea of what I am getting myself into, but would love to talk with someone who has been there done that. Regardless.. thank you for all the info and pics again!