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Electric car impact on fuel availabilty and pricing in future(?)
- Thread starter JC220
- Start date
Automakers get win as US reverses course on EV mileage rule
"WASHINGTON, March 19 (Reuters) - Automakers will get significantly more credit for building electric vehicles in meeting U.S. fuel economy rules, than regulators initially proposed, under final rules released Tuesday.
The Energy Department unveiled final rules, opens new tab that significantly soften its proposal to slash electric vehicles' (EV) mileage ratings by 72% in 2027 to meet government fuel economy requirements. The new final rules soften the revisions to the calculations and gradually phase them in through 2030 rather than in 2027.
The decision first reported Monday by Reuters is a win for the Detroit Three automakers and the United Auto Workers union that raised alarm that the proposal could have resulted in U.S. automakers facing $10.5 billion in fines through 2032 for not meeting fuel economy requirements."
maw
"WASHINGTON, March 19 (Reuters) - Automakers will get significantly more credit for building electric vehicles in meeting U.S. fuel economy rules, than regulators initially proposed, under final rules released Tuesday.
The Energy Department unveiled final rules, opens new tab that significantly soften its proposal to slash electric vehicles' (EV) mileage ratings by 72% in 2027 to meet government fuel economy requirements. The new final rules soften the revisions to the calculations and gradually phase them in through 2030 rather than in 2027.
The decision first reported Monday by Reuters is a win for the Detroit Three automakers and the United Auto Workers union that raised alarm that the proposal could have resulted in U.S. automakers facing $10.5 billion in fines through 2032 for not meeting fuel economy requirements."
maw
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Link no workee.
EDIT: Link is working now - article pasted below:
A win for automakers as US softens EV mileage rule
By David Shepardson
March 19, 20249:57 AM MDTUpdated 3 hours ago
WASHINGTON, March 19 (Reuters) - Automakers will get significantly more mileage credits for building electric vehicles to meet U.S. fuel economy requirements than U.S. regulators initially proposed, under final rules released Tuesday.
The rule means automakers will now be able to build more gas-powered vehicles through 2030 and still meet overall Corporate Average Fuel Economy requirements than under the tougher, initial Energy Department (DOE) proposal.
The DOE unveiled final rules, opens new tab that soften its proposal to slash electric vehicles' mileage ratings by 72% in 2027 to meet government fuel-economy requirements. The new rules ease revisions to the calculations and gradually phase them in through 2030, rather than by 2027. DOE assigns miles per gallon equivalent (MPGe) ratings for electric vehicles that are averaged with internal combustion vehicles to meet an automaker's overall CAFE requirements.
The decision, first reported Monday by Reuters, is a win for the Detroit Three automakers, other major automakers and the United Auto Workers union that raised alarm that the proposal could have resulted in U.S. automakers facing $10.5 billion in CAFE fines through 2032 for not meeting fuel-economy requirements. The final rule reduces the petroleum-equivalent EV fuel economy rating through 2030 and by 65% in total, giving automakers more time to adjust.
Under the prior proposal, General Motors (GM.N), opens new tab would face $6.5 billion in fines, followed by Chrysler-parent Stellantis (STLAM.MI), opens new tab with $3 billion, and Ford (F.N), opens new tab $1 billion through 2032. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is set to proposal final revised CAFE rules this spring.
Alliance for Automotive Innovation CEO John Bozzella said Tuesday the earlier DOE proposal would "perversely disincentivize the production of battery electric vehicles" and would have forced automakers to pay hefty CAFE civil penalties.
He called the decision to phase in and make adjustments to the calculation "positive." The NRDC and Sierra Club had urged EV mileage rating reductions after the DOE left them unchanged for two decades, arguing high ratings meant a "relatively small number of EVs will mathematically guarantee compliance without meaningful improvements" in the overall fleet. "The automakers’ free ride is over," said Pete Huffman, senior attorney at NRDC on Tuesday, and the final rule "will curtail automakers’ use of phantom credits they used to keep selling gas guzzlers."
Separately, the Environmental Protection Agency on Wednesday will unveil revised vehicle emissions requirements that will ease proposed yearly requirements through 2030 in a bid to aggressively cut tailpipe emissions and boost EV sales, sources said.
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And then there's this... so the industry is still in transition while we watch the grass grow.
maw
Me too, @TerryA ... I used to want a pre-split one, but the Speed changed my mind on that. I get the sense that any qualified mechanic can maintain them, though the stealership will charge a huge profit. They seem to me to be as simple as my S55, which is "not really" but "not crazy" -- it's mostly the fluid hydraulics, which are more or less "fixed" by fastidious care of the fluid. Every independent mechanic I use could handle them. I certainly don't see myself dealing with the "attitude" of a Bentley dealership though -- ever.I lovethe Bentley Speed Convertible but I’ll never be able to own one
. I can’t imagine the maintenance & upkeep costs. It also wouldn’t fit my “DIY Profile”
maw
@ $3,000.00 Bill!!! And that was in the 90s.
I know... silly... having seen (and heard) Ferrari's tuned, I can almost buy the expensive Ferrari tune ups, and wouldn't trust them to just anyone. Rex or Satish maybe, but only if they felt comfortable. Something tells me they'd send me to the dealer. But Bentley anymore is a basic engineering manufacture with superluxurious accouterments.
maw
This guy is not exactly EV favorable, but he brings up some valid concerns about infrastructure.
I had to dig a bit to find out where the parking-lot charge debacle occurred, seems to be near Sacramento, CA.
Start at ~6:30 for the TL;DR version. Get a Level 2 charger at home, public charging ain't there yet (if you don't have an EV compatible with Tesla Superchargers).
I had to dig a bit to find out where the parking-lot charge debacle occurred, seems to be near Sacramento, CA.
Start at ~6:30 for the TL;DR version. Get a Level 2 charger at home, public charging ain't there yet (if you don't have an EV compatible with Tesla Superchargers).
Curious if this sort of a deal stirs anyone, at all.
You've got a 3 year old midsize EV from Audi. When new in 2021, it would have sold for $80-85K. Mid to high trim level. Offered at $32K CPO. So you'd probably have ~2.5 years and 35K miles of original/CPO warranty coverage.
www.audiomaha.com
I see a lot of new posters showing up at the etron forum who are bottom feeding for a super cheap EV. But older than this one, and not CPO, so no warranty. Armed with zero understanding of what they are thinking about getting into. No concept that drive motors can fail. Electronic modules can fail. And there is zero safety net, aside from the 8yr coverage on the drive battery. Things break on EVs. Just like ICE cars.
To me, this blue etron SUV might be in the sweet spot. Use it up for 2.5 years and then dump it. Like a lease, but with slightly less certainty of the depreciation cost. Assuming you could buy it for $30K and dump it in 30 months for $20K, or thereabouts.... which is where the previously-mention "bottom feeders" are looking today with the 2019 units.
Probably $450-500/mo for finance and depreciation. Whereas a new one is going to lease in the $850-900/mo range for 36 months.
If you've got a Level 2 charger at home, the cost to operate is going to be very low. Something like $0.06/mile for the electricity. Compared to gasoline that is increasing in price on a daily basis.
You've got a 3 year old midsize EV from Audi. When new in 2021, it would have sold for $80-85K. Mid to high trim level. Offered at $32K CPO. So you'd probably have ~2.5 years and 35K miles of original/CPO warranty coverage.
Used 2021 Audi e-tron Premium (A038956A) | Audi Omaha | Omaha, NE
Used Audi e-tron (A038956A) at Audi Omaha. Call 402-281-0596 for info.
www.audiomaha.com
I see a lot of new posters showing up at the etron forum who are bottom feeding for a super cheap EV. But older than this one, and not CPO, so no warranty. Armed with zero understanding of what they are thinking about getting into. No concept that drive motors can fail. Electronic modules can fail. And there is zero safety net, aside from the 8yr coverage on the drive battery. Things break on EVs. Just like ICE cars.
To me, this blue etron SUV might be in the sweet spot. Use it up for 2.5 years and then dump it. Like a lease, but with slightly less certainty of the depreciation cost. Assuming you could buy it for $30K and dump it in 30 months for $20K, or thereabouts.... which is where the previously-mention "bottom feeders" are looking today with the 2019 units.
Probably $450-500/mo for finance and depreciation. Whereas a new one is going to lease in the $850-900/mo range for 36 months.
If you've got a Level 2 charger at home, the cost to operate is going to be very low. Something like $0.06/mile for the electricity. Compared to gasoline that is increasing in price on a daily basis.
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Fun down under at the charge station, mate:
au.news.yahoo.com
Electric vehicle driver's 'arrogant' stunt at charging station exposes common problem
Gordon Walker agrees more has to be done to improve Australia's EV infrastructure labelling it a 'disaster'. Find out what happened.
Numbers going down...
news.gallup.com
EV Ownership Ticks Up, but Fewer Nonowners Want to Buy One
More U.S. adults now than a year ago say they own an electric vehicle, but more also say they would not consider buying one.
news.gallup.com
It is ironic that the article mentions those folks that are most concerned about climate change are also most strongly interested in buying a new EV automobile.Numbers going down...
EV Ownership Ticks Up, but Fewer Nonowners Want to Buy One
More U.S. adults now than a year ago say they own an electric vehicle, but more also say they would not consider buying one.
I feel like combating climate change is not something we can consume / buy our way out of. How about just not buying a new car so that the industrial process of manufacturing doesn’t incrementally contribute a new car’s manufacturing emissions against the climate? Spending money (or worse, incurring debt) is easy. Culture change is hard.
yowza!
electrek.co
Tesla conducting more layoffs, including entire Supercharger team
The newest round includes Tesla's policy team, director of new products, and the entire group responsible for Supercharger rollout.
electrek.co
This article isn't EV-specific, but applies to 100% of EV's:
www.500eboard.co
Touch Screens Are Ruining Cars | Off-Topic Discussions
TLDR: Hookah lounges are pretty nice, until they become Apollo 13. :LOL: OK, ok, this is a pretty good article - worth reading. Thanks @RicardoD for sharing...
EVs From A Decade Ago Are Dying An Early Death, But They Don't Have To - Jalopnik
When you were a kid and you had a little radio control car that you zoomed around the kitchen floor or built jumps for in the back yard, did you throw it away when the batteries died? For many owners of early electric vehicles from a decade or more ago, that seems to be the answer to electrical...
jalopnik.com
toyota has it really going on! replacement hybrid batteries are DIY now and cost b/t $1,100 for a reconditioned battery or $2,200 for a brand new oneEVs From A Decade Ago Are Dying An Early Death, But They Don't Have To - Jalopnik
When you were a kid and you had a little radio control car that you zoomed around the kitchen floor or built jumps for in the back yard, did you throw it away when the batteries died? For many owners of early electric vehicles from a decade or more ago, that seems to be the answer to electrical...
Get you an older one.I love
Ha Ha, I’ve got enough issues already w/ 2 Benz’s. Maintenance on that beauty ought to be a nightmare.
The US market underestimates BYD/Geely/ etc. at our peril. Sure, there are safety/quality/etc issues with the Chinese vehicles that would not be acceptable to the US market, but at one time, Toyota/Nissan/Mazda/etc and Kia/Hyundai/ etc were all considered to make crap products as well.
The US slapping 100% tariffs on imported Chinese EVs makes for good optics, but will reduce the competitiveness of US manufacturers over the long haul.
I don't think that they're being underestimated, but I suspect that they have no intention of ever letting them in. BYD has already overtaken Tesla in the China market which is possibly the biggest electric car market in the world, and Tesla is in a world of hurt.
Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
The car, Seagull, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China.
apnews.com
Its hard to beat the pros - (this article is a little dated though)I've had a small position in BYD since 2021. It remains underwater.
Warren Buffett's 14-year bet pays off as Berkshire Hathaway cashes in on BYD - Autoblog
Warren Buffett's firm sold off more than 11 million shares in BYD last month, as it continues to reduce its holding in the Chinese EV maker.
www.autoblog.com
The West laughed at the Japanese when they introduced cars. Nobody’s laughing now.
The West laughed at the Koreans when they introduced cars. Nobody’s laughing now.
I bet we’re doing the same mistake again, albeit that the Chinese government is communist and have a whole different agenda than what the Japanese and Korean have. But we are underestimating them for sure.
I would never buy a Chinese car now, but most of my non-petrolhead friends and family don’t care a single bit. Price and performance is key, and battery cars made people care less about brand.
When I was a kid what you drove defined you. I remember the fierce Volvo vs Saab discussions on the schoolyard.
The West laughed at the Koreans when they introduced cars. Nobody’s laughing now.
I bet we’re doing the same mistake again, albeit that the Chinese government is communist and have a whole different agenda than what the Japanese and Korean have. But we are underestimating them for sure.
I would never buy a Chinese car now, but most of my non-petrolhead friends and family don’t care a single bit. Price and performance is key, and battery cars made people care less about brand.
When I was a kid what you drove defined you. I remember the fierce Volvo vs Saab discussions on the schoolyard.
I don't place big bets on individual securities. Not even BRK.Its hard to beat the pros - (this article is a little dated though)
Warren Buffett's 14-year bet pays off as Berkshire Hathaway cashes in on BYD - Autoblog
Warren Buffett's firm sold off more than 11 million shares in BYD last month, as it continues to reduce its holding in the Chinese EV maker.
The BYD positon was a double down of sorts to get more exposure than just through the BRK holdings.
Good points. There's a great possibility that we won't even see this development (all electrical). In Europe, the big number is year 2035. Well..how about 2050, if we get things going fast
.My luckiest guess is that we will start burning more ecologically than in the past years.
Almost 80F in Finland, it's hot
maw
EV slump, Hertz fire sale take used Teslas to ‘no haggle’ $25,000 price
PUBLISHED THU, JUN 6 202412:02 PM EDT- Hertz has plenty of electric vehicles, especially Teslas, that it’s motivated to sell since pulling back on its aggressive EV plans, at what the rental car company calls ‘no-haggle’ prices.
- Nationwide, in most major metros, that means an average sales price of around $25,000, but they are now older models in a market where battery and mileage performance will increase each year.
- Used EV prices plummeted by as much as 31.8% this year, according to automotive research firm iSeeCars.
The race to the $25,000 EV in the U.S. car market has been won, but not in the way the auto industry wanted.
Since January, Hertz Global Holdings has been in Tesla sales mode, with 20,000 electric vehicles from its global fleet, representing nearly a third of the rental-car company’s existing EV inventory, on the dealer lot. The move, viewed as a stumble in Hertz’s EV strategy — in 2021, it heralded plans to order hundreds of thousands of Teslas, Polestars and battery-electric GM models — also reflects a sobering up of the electrification hype within the U.S. auto industry, which has run into a consumer in 2024 spurning at least the expected pace of the transition away from gas-powered cars.
While EV sales in the U.S. more than quadrupled from 2020 to 2023, and now account for more than 9% of total light-duty vehicle sales, the pace of growth has slowed and automakers are focusing more on selling hybrids. Yet the eventual transition to EVs remains inevitable, as sticker prices become more in line with those of internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles — something the sales slump is making happen even faster as auto companies attempt to move EVs — battery technology improves driving range and the charging infrastructure expands. And there is the overarching imperative to reduce the tons of climate-changing carbon emissions that cars and trucks produce.
Considering all that, now might be a good time to buy one of Hertz’s used Teslas through its long-established Hertz Car Sales division, in business since 1977 and operating about 70 locations across the country. Although as with buying any used car — from manufacturers and independent dealers, online marketplaces or private owners — there are pros and cons.
On the plus side, Hertz has plenty of EVs that it’s motivated to sell at what it calls no-haggle prices. “Our EVs can be found nationwide in most major metros and averaging around $25,000,” said a Hertz spokesperson in an email. All of the Hertz-certified vehicles are given a 115-point inspection and include a 12-month/12,000-mile (whichever comes first) limited powertrain warranty. Hertz also offers vehicle protection plans that last beyond the warranty, as well as a seven-day or 250-mile buy-back guarantee. Hertz, like most used car retailers, offers trade-ins and financing. Also, some used EVs are eligible for up to $4,000 in federal tax credits, and several states offer tax credits or rebates.
On the minus side, although the Hertz late-model EV fleet is only a couple of years old, the cars have been frequently rented, so the mileage can be relatively higher compared to other used vehicles. That could mean more wear and tear, since there’s no telling how aggressively they’ve been driven.
Interested auto consumers can consult various online sources in the EV buying process when it comes to Hertz and Teslas, and take a virtual test drive. Of course, going to a dealer and taking a physical test drive is a must, but there’s a lot to be learned before heading out the door. The Hertz Car Sales website “Shop EVs” button recently listed 1,475 of the 1,638 used EVs listed as “Hertz Certified.” There were 1,186 Teslas, 157 Volvos, 104 Mercedes, 125 Chevrolet Bolts and far fewer all-electric Kias and Suburus. Naturally, those numbers can change from day to day, and the data suggest that the models are moving: a few weeks ago, there were 1,860 “Hertz Certified” EVs out of a total 2,242 for sale, including 1,341 Teslas and 500 Chevy Bolts.
Used EV prices have been falling hard. A March study by automotive research firm iSeeCars found that the average used car price was down 3.6% from last year, though used EV prices had plummeted 31.8%, equating to $14,418 in value. Used Tesla prices dropped 28.9%, the most of any brand, “largely driven by Elon Musk’s aggressive price cuts on new Teslas,” said iSeeCars executive analyst Karl Brauer in the report.
In April, iSeeCars reported that all four of Tesla’s models are among the fastest-selling used EVs, with three of its cars in the top four slots. “With an average price of $37,644, the fastest-selling used electric vehicles are $20,000 cheaper than the fastest-selling new EVs,” Brauer said. “This is the pricing gulf manufacturers need to bridge to engage mainstream new-car shoppers.”
Three years is considered a “sweet spot” among used electric cars, including used Teslas, according to Yossi Levi, who as the Car Dealership Guy opines about buying new and used cars. “The best bang for the buck for consumers in the market today, bar none, is the used electric vehicle,” he said. “And the best-value purchase is likely a three-year-old EV.”
Hertz Tesla Model 3 used inventory and the fine print
The majority of Hertz’s used Teslas were 2022 and 2023 Model 3 sedans, which when new had a driving range of 270 miles for the base version and around 350 miles for the long-range one. The Hertz Teslas were priced between $21,000 and $36,000. The site also listed 163 Hertz Rent2Buy EVs, including some Teslas. That refers to a plan, offered in select states, that lets you rent an active rental car for up to three days or take a complimentary two-hour test drive. “If you purchase the car, all the rental charges will be waived.” the Hertz spokesperson said. The same warranty and buy-back guarantee apply.Each individual Tesla for sale through Hertz includes general information about the model and details on that specific vehicle. The icon for AutoCheck (an alternative to CarFax) provided the car’s history report, including accidents, recalls and servicing/repairs. There is a notable caveat: Not all damage-related events are reported to AutoCheck. It recommends having pre-owned vehicles inspected by a third-party prior to purchase.
Although a test drive and third-party inspection are advisable, it is possible to complete the entire transaction with Hertz online and have the car delivered, for a fee. The charge starts at $225 for delivery within 75 miles, goes to $350 for up to 200 miles, and is a negotiated for longer distances. That might be an option if, let’s say, the buyer lives in Massachusetts and finds the perfect car in Colorado.
Tesla direct sales, online car markets
The official Tesla website, meanwhile, has information on all of its new and used vehicles, all of them certified, inspected and warrantied by the manufacturer. As to be expected, the site listed more used vehicles than Hertz, dating back as far as 2018. Model 3 prices ranged from $24,000 to $38,800.Buying a pre-owned Tesla is also possible through a few different online marketplaces. For example, CarMax listed 38 2021 Model 3s, mostly long-range versions and priced from $26,000 to $37,000, primarily depending on mileage. Carvana had 133 of the same models, ranging from $26,000 to $38,000.
Asking gen AI to help in car buying process
In 2024, there’s one other major change in the car shopping experience: artificial intelligence brought into the mix as a sales assistant. Late last year, ChatGPT tools were launched by automotive research and shopping websites Edmunds and CarGurus. Accessing the chatbots does require a subscription to ChatGPT Plus, for $20 a month.Prompting the Edmunds bot with the following question — “I am thinking of purchasing a used Telsa Model 3 from Hertz Car Sales. Can you provide information and advice? — led to this response:
“Can be a great decision,” ChatGPT said. It then listed features of the Model 3 and reiterated Hertz’s Certified and no-haggle pricing policies. It suggested checking battery condition, software updates and whether Tesla’s original warranty is still in effect. Like Hertz, the bot advised a test drive and independent inspection.
The same question posed to the CarGurus GenAI tool led to a half dozen used Model 3s and links to dealer listings on the CarGurus website, but no mention of Hertz. A follow-up question — “Can you tell me about 2022 Tesla Model 3s being sold by Hertz Car Sales?” — produced the same listings, plus some perfunctory points about purchasing through Hertz.
When prompted to compare buying a used Tesla from Hertz versus a Tesla dealer; and a used car dealer or a private owner, the bot neatly delineated the benefits and drawbacks for each, concluding with the following advice: “Consider what factors are most important to you — such as price, warranty, and peace of mind — when making your decision.”
The chatbots weren’t going to make the decision for the car shopper, but both chatbots conveniently condensed a lot of information that standard online searching would take loner to compiled across several separate sources — including the Edmunds and CarGurus websites, which listed Teslas at private dealers in the region, as well as Hertz Car Sales locations. That’s no surprise, as it is the prime directive of GenAI at its basic level.
“We believe this will help customers potentially find cars within that haystack, if you will, that they maybe wouldn’t have been able to find with our existing filters and sort of go at it on their own,” said Matt Quinn, CarGurus’ chief technology officer.
Consumers armed with such AI-produced information should be adequately educated once they show up in person at a Hertz Car Sales location or a Tesla or private dealership. “These tools have the ability to help shoppers become more prepared and informed,” said Eugene Park, chief product officer for Edmunds. “Frankly, I think the best dealerships appreciate having shoppers that are ready to buy.”
For those who dread the clichéd used car shopping experience, the day may soon be coming where they can flip the script and ask the salesperson, “Here’s what you have to do to put me in that car today.”
Ouch
Although the electric vehicle market has seen significant growth over the past few years, there are signs that the exponential growth will slow down, with automakers like General Motors reducing electric vehicle sales and production targets. In fact, it appears as though even some EV owners themselves are yearning for a return to ICE-powered models.
According to a report from Automotive News, consulting firm McKinsey & Co. found that 46 percent of U.S. respondents who currently own an electric vehicle are likely to buy an ICE-powered vehicle as their next car purchase, with charging concerns standing out as the largest hindrance toward the gradual transition to all-electric vehicles.
Beyond this, McKinsey & Co. also found that 29 percent of electric vehicle owners worldwide are likely to switch to gasoline vehicles, citing the same concerns.
“I didn’t expect that,” McKinsey & Co. Center for Future Mobility Leader Philipp Kampshoff remarked. “I thought, ‘Once an EV buyer, always an EV buyer.'”
“OEMs and suppliers now have to invest in multiple technologies,” McKinsey & Co. Automotive and Assembly Practice Global Co-Leader Kevin Laczkowski stated. “This is the ultimate uncertainty right now, like almost never before.”
Interestingly, electric vehicle owners appear to be experiencing buyer’s remorse due to inadequate public charging infrastructure, high ownership costs, and limitations with long trips.
McKinsey & Co. found a few other notable pieces, including:
46 Percent Of American EV Owners Want To Go Back To ICE: Study
Although the electric vehicle market has seen significant growth over the past few years, there are signs that the exponential growth will slow down, with automakers like General Motors reducing electric vehicle sales and production targets. In fact, it appears as though even some EV owners themselves are yearning for a return to ICE-powered models.
According to a report from Automotive News, consulting firm McKinsey & Co. found that 46 percent of U.S. respondents who currently own an electric vehicle are likely to buy an ICE-powered vehicle as their next car purchase, with charging concerns standing out as the largest hindrance toward the gradual transition to all-electric vehicles.
Beyond this, McKinsey & Co. also found that 29 percent of electric vehicle owners worldwide are likely to switch to gasoline vehicles, citing the same concerns.
“I didn’t expect that,” McKinsey & Co. Center for Future Mobility Leader Philipp Kampshoff remarked. “I thought, ‘Once an EV buyer, always an EV buyer.'”
“OEMs and suppliers now have to invest in multiple technologies,” McKinsey & Co. Automotive and Assembly Practice Global Co-Leader Kevin Laczkowski stated. “This is the ultimate uncertainty right now, like almost never before.”
Interestingly, electric vehicle owners appear to be experiencing buyer’s remorse due to inadequate public charging infrastructure, high ownership costs, and limitations with long trips.
McKinsey & Co. found a few other notable pieces, including:
- 21 percent of global respondents have no interest in ever switching to an all-electric vehicle. Of those, 33 percent cited charging concerns.
- Said charging concerns are exacerbated by range-related expectations, where minimum range expectations have grown from 270 miles in 2022 to 291.4 miles today.
Color me shocked. (Not.) 
(CNN) — Sometimes, technology doesn’t fulfill its promise. But, other times, it isn’t the tech that let’s you down, it’s the people using it. So one electric vehicle charging company company is experimenting with cutting off people who linger, attempting to “fill ‘er up.”
Recently, I drove a new Chevrolet Blazer EV from New York City to Bristol, Pennsylvania. I figured the drive down to Bristol with my family would take about 90 minutes and, since I didn’t start with a full battery, the return trip would take 15 to 20 minutes more with a stop along the way to charge up the EV some.
I was so very wrong.
It took us four hours to get home that night. We were sitting in line for electric vehicle chargers. Blame ill-mannered charger hogs who don’t respect EV etiquette. It’s like waiting for your table in a restaurant while watching people casually chat over empty plates and half-empty wine glasses.
What’s wrong? EV fast chargers – the big tall units that look like major appliances – aren’t generally designed to completely fill an EV’s batteries. They are designed to pour electricity into a battery quickly so drivers can make a short stop and get back on the road after, say, 20 minutes or so. They’re different from the smaller and more common “slow” or “destination chargers,” in Tesla parlance, that are designed for drivers to park, plug in… and leave for hours.
Fast charging can be stressful for a car’s batteries, though. So, to protect batteries from damage, charging speeds slow way down once batteries get beyond 80% full. In fact, it can take as long, or even longer, to go from 80% charged to completely full than to reach 80%. Meanwhile, lines of electric vehicles wait behind almost-full cars.
I was waiting behind people with batteries that were 92%, 94% and even 97% full, as I could see on the charger screens. Still, they stayed there. I made my own situation worse by giving up on one location and going to another with more chargers, but there were even more EVs waiting there.
Given that a lack of public charging is turning many consumers off to EVs, according to multiple surveys, this is a major issue.
Electrify America, one of America’s biggest charging companies, is experimenting with a solution to the problem of charger hogs who can make it slow and unpleasant to travel in an EV. At 10 of the busiest EV fast charging stations in California, Electrify America has enacted a strict limit. Once a car’s batteries are 85% charged, charging will automatically stop and the driver will be told to unplug and leave or face additional 40-cent-per-minute “idle time” fees for taking the space.
It’s similar to something Tesla vehicles do automatically. When a Tesla car, truck or SUV plugs into a particularly heavily-used Supercharger station, the vehicle itself may automatically limit charging to just 80% “to reduce congestion,” according to Tesla’s on-line Supercharger Support web page.
In that case, though, the user can still override the limit using the vehicle’s touchscreen. There will be no getting around Electrify America’s limit. A driver who wants to charge to 100% at one of these stations will need to go someplace else.
Charger access has been a sore point among EV owners for years (note the complaining rants on Reddit and LinkedIn). But it’s becoming a more critical issue because, even though the rate of EV sales growth is tapering off, the number of EVs on the road that need charging is still increasing.
“I think what you’re seeing is demand for public fast charging is really skyrocketing,” said Sara Rafalson, executive vice president for policy at EV charging company EVgo, “and I would say we’ve been really at an inflection point in the last year, year and a half, with demand.”
Electric cars are still pretty new to most owners, and their “refueling” habits are based on what they’ve been used to from driving gas cars, said Robert Barrosa, president of the EV charging company Electrify America. People go to a gas pump to “fill up,” and many will treat a charger the same way. Many new EV owners may not even be aware that there is always a drastic slow-down in charging speed past 80%.
But what if the nearest fast charger is, say, at least 15 or 20 minutes out of the way? The relative scarcity of chargers, and long distances between them, can make people want to stick around a while once they find one.
“Once you’re at a charger, it’s like ‘Oh, yeah. I’m filling all the way,’” said Barrosa.
Both Electrify America and EVgo said they are rapidly expanding their networks to, as EVgo’s Rafalson put it, “skate ahead of the puck,” trying to make sure there are enough chargers to meet future demand. An ample supply of chargers could help mitigate the sort of electricity hoarding behavior that’s common at chargers now.
The problem of users taking up chargers may be exacerbated by Electrify America’s own free charging agreements with various automakers, including Mercedes-Benz and Hyundai. When charging time costs nothing, there’s no financial incentive to unplug. Like diners ordering more endless shrimp at Red Lobster, some EV drivers take full advantage, to the growing the frustration of others waiting behind them.
There can also be other legitimate reasons a driver may want to charge to 100% at a fast charger, said Barrosa. For instance, they may be taking a long trip to someplace where they know there will be few chargers. Or they may be driving an EV with relatively little range, like a Fiat 500e or Mazda MX-30, so they need to cram in all they can. Cases like these are why Electrify America probably won’t institute an overall charging cap at charging stations near major highways, he said.
Charging companies like Electrify America have an immense amount of real-time data on charger usage, so a more nuanced approach than a simple limit at certain chargers would be possible. Some EV charging companies have experimented with plans that charge different amounts of money at different times to give drivers incentives to fill their batteries at less busy hours. For now, at least, Electrify America executives want to keep things simple, said Barrosa, so drivers know what to expect when they arrive at a charging station.
For the time being, let’s just hope that EV drivers who don’t really need to fill all the way up will learn to be more considerate.
The-CNN-Wire
www.abc12.com
‘Charger hogs’ are ruining the electric vehicle experience.
(CNN) — Sometimes, technology doesn’t fulfill its promise. But, other times, it isn’t the tech that let’s you down, it’s the people using it. So one electric vehicle charging company company is experimenting with cutting off people who linger, attempting to “fill ‘er up.”
Recently, I drove a new Chevrolet Blazer EV from New York City to Bristol, Pennsylvania. I figured the drive down to Bristol with my family would take about 90 minutes and, since I didn’t start with a full battery, the return trip would take 15 to 20 minutes more with a stop along the way to charge up the EV some.
I was so very wrong.
It took us four hours to get home that night. We were sitting in line for electric vehicle chargers. Blame ill-mannered charger hogs who don’t respect EV etiquette. It’s like waiting for your table in a restaurant while watching people casually chat over empty plates and half-empty wine glasses.
What’s wrong? EV fast chargers – the big tall units that look like major appliances – aren’t generally designed to completely fill an EV’s batteries. They are designed to pour electricity into a battery quickly so drivers can make a short stop and get back on the road after, say, 20 minutes or so. They’re different from the smaller and more common “slow” or “destination chargers,” in Tesla parlance, that are designed for drivers to park, plug in… and leave for hours.
Fast charging can be stressful for a car’s batteries, though. So, to protect batteries from damage, charging speeds slow way down once batteries get beyond 80% full. In fact, it can take as long, or even longer, to go from 80% charged to completely full than to reach 80%. Meanwhile, lines of electric vehicles wait behind almost-full cars.
I was waiting behind people with batteries that were 92%, 94% and even 97% full, as I could see on the charger screens. Still, they stayed there. I made my own situation worse by giving up on one location and going to another with more chargers, but there were even more EVs waiting there.
Given that a lack of public charging is turning many consumers off to EVs, according to multiple surveys, this is a major issue.
Electrify America, one of America’s biggest charging companies, is experimenting with a solution to the problem of charger hogs who can make it slow and unpleasant to travel in an EV. At 10 of the busiest EV fast charging stations in California, Electrify America has enacted a strict limit. Once a car’s batteries are 85% charged, charging will automatically stop and the driver will be told to unplug and leave or face additional 40-cent-per-minute “idle time” fees for taking the space.
It’s similar to something Tesla vehicles do automatically. When a Tesla car, truck or SUV plugs into a particularly heavily-used Supercharger station, the vehicle itself may automatically limit charging to just 80% “to reduce congestion,” according to Tesla’s on-line Supercharger Support web page.
In that case, though, the user can still override the limit using the vehicle’s touchscreen. There will be no getting around Electrify America’s limit. A driver who wants to charge to 100% at one of these stations will need to go someplace else.
Charger access has been a sore point among EV owners for years (note the complaining rants on Reddit and LinkedIn). But it’s becoming a more critical issue because, even though the rate of EV sales growth is tapering off, the number of EVs on the road that need charging is still increasing.
“I think what you’re seeing is demand for public fast charging is really skyrocketing,” said Sara Rafalson, executive vice president for policy at EV charging company EVgo, “and I would say we’ve been really at an inflection point in the last year, year and a half, with demand.”
Why so many drivers hog so few chargers
Given the sharply dropping speed curve of EV chargers it would make the most sense to unplug at 80% and just stop at another charger later to fill to 80% again. That would always take advantage of a fast charger’s highest speeds.Electric cars are still pretty new to most owners, and their “refueling” habits are based on what they’ve been used to from driving gas cars, said Robert Barrosa, president of the EV charging company Electrify America. People go to a gas pump to “fill up,” and many will treat a charger the same way. Many new EV owners may not even be aware that there is always a drastic slow-down in charging speed past 80%.
But what if the nearest fast charger is, say, at least 15 or 20 minutes out of the way? The relative scarcity of chargers, and long distances between them, can make people want to stick around a while once they find one.
“Once you’re at a charger, it’s like ‘Oh, yeah. I’m filling all the way,’” said Barrosa.
Both Electrify America and EVgo said they are rapidly expanding their networks to, as EVgo’s Rafalson put it, “skate ahead of the puck,” trying to make sure there are enough chargers to meet future demand. An ample supply of chargers could help mitigate the sort of electricity hoarding behavior that’s common at chargers now.
The problem of users taking up chargers may be exacerbated by Electrify America’s own free charging agreements with various automakers, including Mercedes-Benz and Hyundai. When charging time costs nothing, there’s no financial incentive to unplug. Like diners ordering more endless shrimp at Red Lobster, some EV drivers take full advantage, to the growing the frustration of others waiting behind them.
There can also be other legitimate reasons a driver may want to charge to 100% at a fast charger, said Barrosa. For instance, they may be taking a long trip to someplace where they know there will be few chargers. Or they may be driving an EV with relatively little range, like a Fiat 500e or Mazda MX-30, so they need to cram in all they can. Cases like these are why Electrify America probably won’t institute an overall charging cap at charging stations near major highways, he said.
Charging companies like Electrify America have an immense amount of real-time data on charger usage, so a more nuanced approach than a simple limit at certain chargers would be possible. Some EV charging companies have experimented with plans that charge different amounts of money at different times to give drivers incentives to fill their batteries at less busy hours. For now, at least, Electrify America executives want to keep things simple, said Barrosa, so drivers know what to expect when they arrive at a charging station.
For the time being, let’s just hope that EV drivers who don’t really need to fill all the way up will learn to be more considerate.
The-CNN-Wire
‘Charger hogs’ are ruining the electric vehicle experience. One company is clamping down on bad manners
EV drivers who don’t really need to fill all the way up will learn to be more considerate with a new plan.
There is never a queue for the super unleaded pump when I am filling up my S600. Just sayinColor me shocked. (Not.)
‘Charger hogs’ are ruining the electric vehicle experience.
I may be looking at a company car EV in a few months time but will see if it stacks up financially to save £ or if I'm better staying with a monthly car allowance.
Yep, my wife and I experienced this at the NASA Cape Canaveral facility when we went there in March, while renting a Tesla. We were at the museum/facility for a good six hours, and the same cars were hogging all charging spaces during the entire duration we were there. I went out about every hour to see if there was a charger freed up, and yet the same cars were there the whole time. It was ridiculous, and quite angering at the same time.
When we left NASA we just went to the nearest Tesla Supercharger (about 5 miles away at a Target store parking lot and went from ~20% to ~85% in about 25 minutes. Then we drove back to Orlando.
But, from a cultural perspective, they're going to have to do something about these EV charger hogs in order for EVs to become a viable option for people.
They don't think about these "soft" types of issues that pertain to the cultural aspects of EVs.
As said, there are NEVER lines at the 93 octane pumps at Shell stations. I filled up our LX600 yesterday afternoon over on Kent Island near our marina, and my E500 this morning in Bowie, MD at a Shell station, and drove right up. No waiting at all.
When we left NASA we just went to the nearest Tesla Supercharger (about 5 miles away at a Target store parking lot and went from ~20% to ~85% in about 25 minutes. Then we drove back to Orlando.
But, from a cultural perspective, they're going to have to do something about these EV charger hogs in order for EVs to become a viable option for people.
They don't think about these "soft" types of issues that pertain to the cultural aspects of EVs.
As said, there are NEVER lines at the 93 octane pumps at Shell stations. I filled up our LX600 yesterday afternoon over on Kent Island near our marina, and my E500 this morning in Bowie, MD at a Shell station, and drove right up. No waiting at all.
I wonder if the car has to be Tesla for the "your at 80% now go" feature or is that a charger side decision. Meaning as automakers flip over to the Tesla charging standard do they also implement the Tesla protocol to avoid this problem.
My wife is considering an EV as her next vehicle but it would only be for local trips and no way would I lease/purchase one if it doesn't use the Tesla charging system.
My wife is considering an EV as her next vehicle but it would only be for local trips and no way would I lease/purchase one if it doesn't use the Tesla charging system.
Battery Swapping for EVs.
Its already everywhere in China with Nio, etc.
We in the USA are waaaaaay behind (if we are truly all-in for EVs) and our smugness / hubris with NIHS (Not Invented Here Syndrome) will be our downfall.
restofworld.org
Its already everywhere in China with Nio, etc.
We in the USA are waaaaaay behind (if we are truly all-in for EVs) and our smugness / hubris with NIHS (Not Invented Here Syndrome) will be our downfall.
China is betting on battery swaps to tackle EV chargers shortage
Rarely seen globally, there are already thousands of battery swap stations across China.
restofworld.org
One step further... pay for charge minutes... so the chargers will be maintained to a standard that protects the revenue stream... chargers not working equals unhappy customers who aren't paying to use them... byproduct is there will be no need to hog the Fn charger because they actually, you know, work.
"I'm not buying that POS; their chargers never work..."
maw
Yeah there's never a wait in the "come get raped with no vaseline" line.There is never a queue for the super unleaded pump when I am filling up my S600. Just sayin
Go figure.
I've been watching super unleaded hovering around $5/gallon for no reasons I can identify with oil in the $70's per barrel and talk of a softening economy. So where's the demand for these high prices? Whimsy
maw
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I just filled up w/ Arco Premium 91 Octane a $4.199 Gal in SoCal / OC. That’s the lowest CA price I’ve seen this year for premium.
Except when your vehicle is noted as REQUIRING it. As all of our MBs and both Lexuses (Lexi?) are specfied to. The only vehicle I own that doesn't have a "PREMIUM UNLEADED ONLY" sticker on it, is my motorcycle.
And yes, I paid $5.099 a gallon yesterday morning for my E500 at Shell, though it was only 13 gallons (a half tank).
It is somewhat dependent on where you live in the country, too. When I lived on the West Coast, the prices of regular-->mid-grade-->super were separated by only 10 cents per tier. So it would be like $3.00, $3.10, and $3.20 per gallon. Same when I lived in Texas.
Here in Maryland, I've noticed that super is like $1.00 a gallon more than regular, and mid-grade tends to be $0.30-0.40 cents a gallon higher than regular.
Don't know why this is.
Here in Maryland, I've noticed that super is like $1.00 a gallon more than regular, and mid-grade tends to be $0.30-0.40 cents a gallon higher than regular.
Don't know why this is.
Here in Orange County most stations are well above $5.00 gal for premium. I used to use only Chevron until it went thru the roof. I had been using Arco mid grade in my KIA for a long time with absolutely no problems (now at 99.2K miles) and it’s-$0.50 gal on the average under Chevron, Shell or Mobile here.
I switched to Arco in my 500E when they started pushing that they were “Top Tier fuel and have had no problems with it.
That’s my story and I’m sticking with it.
I switched to Arco in my 500E when they started pushing that they were “Top Tier fuel and have had no problems with it.
That’s my story and I’m sticking with it.
